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LDS Is Moroni a fallen demonic angel?

ToBeLoved

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I also think about the Ark of the Covenant and the 10 Commandments written by the Hand of God. No one except the high priests could even go into the chamber where it existed. When Moses was on the mountain anyone who even touched that mountain would die.

And 'ancient Egyptian' hyroglyphs? Ancient Egypt had so many God's it was crazy. So where did this 'language' of hyrogliphs come from? And a stone. And an angel never mentioned before?

And then the conflicting text. And saying all the followers of Christ for almost 1,600 years were wrong and this text made it right. It's all too much.

God is not a God of confusion. Even Jesus referred often back to the Old Testament. Constantly.
 
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fatboys

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In 1955, Thomas Ferguson, a Latter Day Saint and the founder of the New World Archaeological Foundation (NWAF), with five years of funding from The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (LDS Church), began to dig throughout Mesoamerica for evidence of the veracity of the Book of Mormon claims. In a 1961 newsletter, Ferguson predicted that although nothing had been found, the Book of Mormon cities would be found within ten years. - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historical_authenticity_of_the_Book_of_Mormon
Ferguson was never considered an expert in archeology. He was a layman and loved doing research of the Book of Mormon and published books which were positive towards the Book of Mormon. He never published anything after 1967 and was popular speaking at lds fireside until boost his faith. There have been many thing discovered since hat time which support the Book of Mormon. You need to update your anti Mormon info
 
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mmksparbud

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Ferguson was never considered an expert in archeology. He was a layman and loved doing research of the Book of Mormon and published books which were positive towards the Book of Mormon. He never published anything after 1967 and was popular speaking at lds fireside until boost his faith. There have been many thing discovered since hat time which support the Book of Mormon. You need to update your anti Mormon info

Again, providing proof of what you say would be helpful---what are these many discoveries made which support the book of Mormon? Also please provide the needed support for these views.
 
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ToBeLoved

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Ferguson was never considered an expert in archeology. He was a layman and loved doing research of the Book of Mormon and published books which were positive towards the Book of Mormon. He never published anything after 1967 and was popular speaking at lds fireside until boost his faith. There have been many thing discovered since hat time which support the Book of Mormon. You need to update your anti Mormon info
Can we try not to put a victim mentality on this?

If your entire thing is that we are all anti-Mormon than that is a sad state since we have been almost exclusively talking doctrine.

To me the victim card is desperation.
 
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fatboys

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Can we try not to put a victim mentality on this?

If your entire thing is that we are all anti-Mormon than that is a sad state since we have been almost exclusively talking doctrine.

To me the victim card is desperation.
I have felt with anti Mormons for twenty years. When you mock Joseph Smith and call him names then you are anti Mormon.
 
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Albion

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I have felt with anti Mormons for twenty years. When you mock Joseph Smith and call him names then you are anti Mormon.
Here's an interesting excerpt from the Statement of Purpose for this forum:

"The term "anti-____" has come to have the connotation of one who is against or hates a specific group of people. Therefore, if any member refers to another member as "anti-_____", "an anti", "hater", "_____ hater", or any related terms with the same meaning, such comments will be regarded as flaming."
 
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Jane_Doe

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Here's an interesting excerpt from the Statement of Purpose for this forum:

"The term "anti-____" has come to have the connotation of one who is against or hates a specific group of people. Therefore, if any member refers to another member as "anti-_____", "an anti", "hater", "_____ hater", or any related terms with the same meaning, such comments will be regarded as flaming."

The SOP also says:
  • Members may not blatantly mock, degrade or belittle each others' religious beliefs or practices
I think there's plenty of that going all around. We should all work on being more Christ-like and charitable.
 
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ToBeLoved

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I have felt with anti Mormons for twenty years. When you mock Joseph Smith and call him names then you are anti Mormon.
If it's anti-Mormon to believe Gods Word over JS call me what you like.

It's still a victimized stance.
 
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mmksparbud

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It is not flaming to state that a book is not in conformity to the word of God. It is not flaming to state something that has been stated, written or spoken is not scriptural. It is not against the forum rules to state a point of view is unscriptural. Anti-Mormon believes is not the same thing as being anti-Mormon. The believes may be a part of that person, but the believe is still not that person. I am anti-Calvinist view, Catholic view, atheist views---I am not anti-people. Many are anti-SDA views, I would hope they are not anti-SDA people.
 
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withwonderingawe

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Oh good now I can post this again Finding the Book of Mormon in the Bible.

The Bible prophesied of the Book of Mormon

* "And he said, I saw all Israel scattered upon the hills, as sheep that have not a shepherd: and the Lord said, These have no master…."1 Kings 22

John 10:16
16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.


The bulk of the tribes of Joseph, Ephraim and Manasseh, along with the other tribes were taken away in 721 bc.

Moses himself prophesied "And the Lord shall scatter you among the nations, and ye shall be left few in number among the heathen, whither the Lord shall lead you." Deut 4

Note the Lord would lead them as they were scattered.

Jesus was not sent to teach the gentiles but to the fold. In John 10:1 Jesus is saying he’s going to speak to these other sheep who are no longer part of this fold. They will become part of this fold once again when they hear my voice.

*In Gen 49 Joseph of Egypt is given a blessing and I’m using Strongs to explains some of the means;

22 ¶Joseph is a fruitful bough, even a fruitful bough by a well; whose branches/daughters run over the wall:
23 The archers have sorely grieved him, and shot at him, and hated him:
24 But his bow abode in strength, and the arms of his hands were made strong by the hands of the mighty God of Jacob; (from thence is the shepherd, the stone of Israel
25 Even by the God of thy father, who shall help thee; and by the Almighty, who shall bless thee with blessings of heaven above, blessings of the deep that lieth under, blessings of the breasts, and of the womb:
26 The blessings of thy father have prevailed above the blessings of my progenitors unto the utmost bound of the everlasting hills: they shall be on the head of Joseph, and on the crown of the head of him that was separate from his brethren.

Blessings of heaven is the knowledge of gospel, blessings of the deep is wealth/gold, blessings of the breast and womb are a very large posterity.

Then Jacob claims he has received a greater blessing than that of his fathers and this greater blessing extends beyond the boundary of their promised land to a place called "the everlasting hills". We claim this is the Americas, that the chain of mountain ranges which extends from the Brooks Range of Alaska all the way down to the Andes in South America are the everlasting hills. Joseph was being promised that this land would be his inheritance.

*The word branches is used which is an idiom for daughters, it’s Joseph’s daughters who will go over the wall or beyond their borders. (look it up in Strongs)

In Neh 7 there is a strange little story which takes place after they get back from captivity in 537bc. There is a group of men trying to claim their Levitical descendant but they are unable to prove it because they could not produce their genealogy.

"63 And of the priests: the children of Habaiah, the children of Koz, the children of Barzillai, which took one of the daughters of Barzillai the Gileadite to wife, and was called after their name.
64 These sought their register among those that were reckoned by genealogy, but it was not found: therefore were they, as polluted, put from the priesthood.
65 And the Tirshatha said unto them, that they should not eat of the most holy things, till there stood up a priest with Urim and Thummim."

Imagine that they would use a Urim and Thummim to find out the truth.

Gilead was a descendant of Manasseh and Zelophehad was a descendant of Gilead. He had no sons but 5 daughter, their names are even given. The tradition was that if a man had no sons to carry on his family name then his daughter’s children would be recorded under his linage. So apparently some of his great grand daughters had married into Levitical lines and now her descendants were trying to show that though they were from the linage of Manasseh through there grandmother’s line they were also Levities, but they could not find the record of their genealogy. So why not?

In the Book of Mormon there is a story of Nephi and his brothers returning to Jerusalem to obtain the Plates of Brass. These plates contain the writings of Moses and many of the prophets including Isaiah. They go through a little bit of an adventure to obtaining them and once they do Lehi finds on them " …a genealogy of his fathers; wherefore he knew that he was a descendant of Joseph.." . Later in Alma 10:3 we are told it is through Manasseh.

Some have felt that Lehi was in the same position as these men in the Old Testament. He seems to be a Levite priest, he carries out several different sacrifices and later they build a temple and keep the law of Moses. He is genially surprised to fine that he is also a descendant of Joseph. He then sends his sons back again to Jerusalem to fetch some wives, Ishmael’s daughters.

Erastus Snow, Orson Pratt and Franklin Richards all said Joseph told them that in the lost 116 pages which were stolen from Martin Harris it said that Ishmael’s family who joined them in their journey were of the house of Ephraim.

"…thus fulfilling the words of Jacob upon Ephraim and Manasseh in the 48th chapter of Genesis, which says: "And let my name be named on them, and the name of my fathers Abraham and Isaac; and let them grow into a multitude in the midst of the land." (Fair)

Only someone well versed in the little nuances of the Bible would know these things. Joseph Smith was not at the time schooled in Hebrew and to catch the idea it was through the branches or daughters of Joseph which would go over the wall is really a proof of The Book of Mormon.

*There are 3 prophecies found in Eze 37 have been and are in the process of being fulfilled. Ezekiel was one of the captives carried away by Nebuchadnezzar into Babylon.

The first prophecy runs from verse 1-14, Ezekiel see a valley of dry bones, Then he said unto me, Son of man, these bones are the whole house of Israel: ,

The Lord causes the bones to come together, we‘re not talking about the actual resurrection but the revitalization of Israel. Ezekiel prophesies "Come from the four winds, O breath, and breathe upon these slain, that they may live." The once dead and scattered bodies live and become a great army. They are promised;

‘…I will open your graves, and cause you to come up out of your graves, and bring you into the land of Israel….And shall put my spirit in you, and ye shall live, and I shall place you in your own land: then shall ye know that I the Lord have spoken it, and performed it, saith the Lord.”

1, This gathering of Israel is the work of the Lord and not because man willed it into happening.
2, They will know the true Lord, they will know their Messiah
3, They will return to the land of Israel with the blessings of the Lord

The second prophecy is directly about The Book Of Mormon

15 ¶The word of the Lord came again unto me, saying,
16 Moreover, thou son of man, take thee one stick, and write upon it, For Judah, and for the children of Israel his companions: then take another stick, and write upon it, For Joseph, the stick of Ephraim, and for all the house of Israel his companions:
17 And join them one to another into one stick; and they shall become one in thine hand.
18 ¶And when the children of thy people shall speak unto thee, saying, Wilt thou not shew us what thou meanest by these?
19 Say unto them, Thus saith the Lord God; Behold, I will take the stick of Joseph, which is in the hand of Ephraim, and the tribes of Israel his fellows, and will put them with him, even with the stick of Judah, and make them one stick, and they shall be one in mine hand.
20 ¶And the sticks whereon thou writest shall be in thine hand before their eyes.

The word stick there is ‘ets’ it means literally wood. How it is used in a sentence will clarify the intent of the writer. If one is digging in the dirt with an ets then it is a plow, if one plucks an apple off an ets then it is a fruit tree.

This is not to be confused with a rod or the word matteh as in Num 17, where the tribes write their names on the rods to signify heads of households.

This ets is a writing tablet, one was found in 1953 in the Babylonian city of Calah. In Babylon at this time and across the Middle East wooden writing tablets filled with wax were being used. They were used in Greece and in Rome up into the time of medieval Europe. In Luke 1:63 when Zacharias "…asked for a writing table, and wrote, saying, His name is John…" this kind of tablet they would have brought him.

These wooden tablets would have been "join them one to another" by way of a hinge. Also each would have been given a title as Eze 37 indicates. The New English Bible translates this passage;

"These were the words of the Lord to me: Man, take one leaf of a wooden tablet and write on it, ‘Judah and his associates of Israel.’ Then take another leaf and write on it, ‘Joseph, the leaf of Ephraim and all of his associates of Israel.’ Now bring the two together to form one tablet; then they will be a folding tablet in your hand."

I have one of those folding tablets,

The Stick of Judah is the Bible. It tells the story of the Jews, Levities, Benjamin and remnants of the different tribes who remained after the bulk of the Ten Tribes were led away by the hand of the Lord.

The Stick of Ephraim is the Book of Mormon. It is about Lehi and Ishmael’s families who were descendant Joseph through Ephraim & Manasseh. In the Book of Mormon story there is also a second group made up of various tribes who leave Jerusalem and follow Lehi’s family to this new land promised to Jacob.

You can see a picture of some wooden tablets here;
www.lds.org/ensign/1987/02/ezekiels-sticks-and-the-gathering-of-israel?lang=eng

These two histories have been bought together and are one in our hands. Although it’s much easier to access it on line with all of its cross referencing than to carry it around.

Now the third prophecy of Eze 37:21-28
I won’t copy the whole thing but bring out several different points. It continues with the theme of the gathering of Israel.

"… and will gather them on every side, and bring them into their own land: And I will make them one nation in the land upon the mountains of Israel; … And they shall dwell in the land that I have given unto Jacob my servant .."

Remember Jacob’s promised land was greater than his father’s blessing and was to be found in the utmost bounds of the everlasting hills. He uses David as an idiom for Jesus who was his descendant, he will be their King. " and will set my sanctuary in the midst of them for evermore. My tabernacle also shall be with them: yea, I will be their God, and they shall be my people."

We claim that The Church Of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints is this gathering of Israel. We have the Tablets joined together, we have the Lord’s sanctuary in our midst, in fact we have quite a few of them and Jesus is our King.

Con.
* Isa 29
8 It shall even be as when an hungry man dreameth, and, behold, he eateth; but he awaketh, and his soul is empty: or as when a thirsty man dreameth, and, behold, he drinketh; but he awaketh, and, behold, he is faint, and his soul hath appetite: so shall the multitude of all the nations be, that fight against mount Zion
9 Stay yourselves, and wonder; cry ye out, and cry: they are drunken, but not with wine; they stagger, but not with strong drink.
10 For the Lord hath poured out upon you the spirit of deep sleep, and hath closed your eyes: the prophets and your rulers, the seers hath he covered.
11 And the vision of all is become unto you as the words of a book that is sealed, which men deliver to one that is learned, saying, Read this, I pray thee: and he saith, I cannot; for it is sealed:
12 And the book is delivered to him that is not learned, saying, Read this, I pray thee: and he saith, I am not learned.

18 ¶And in that day shall the deaf hear the words of the book, and the eyes of the blind shall see out of obscurity, and out of darkness.
19 The meek also shall increase their joy in the Lord, and the poor among men shall rejoice in the Holy One of Israel.

Isaiah was prophesying about a time after the fall of Jerusalem (70ad) when there would be no Prophets on the earth, men would stumble for lack of knowledge. Amos also speaks of this time of famine;

11 ¶Behold, the days come, saith the Lord God, that I will send a famine in the land, not a famine of bread, nor a thirst for water, but of hearing the words of the Lord:
12 And they shall wander from sea to sea, and from the north even to the east, they shall run to and fro to seek the word of the Lord, and shall not find it.

But a new vision or revelation will be sent by way of a book. The learned man will not be able to read it but the unlearned man will feel inadequate precisely because of his lack of knowledge. Martin Harris took a transcript of the writings to three different learned men each declined saying they could not read it. One even said he can not read a sealed book.

But the book will be read, it is The Book of Mormon. Verse 18 and 19 are examples of how scriptures use reality as allegory. Marvelous innovations have been made making it possible for the deaf and blind to hear and read the words of the book.

But it also is speaking about how the knowledge of men will be increase the deep sleep will be lifted. The meek and the poor among men will turn to the Lord and that is just the way it has happened. Our missionaries find it is the meek of the earth who are more willing to listen to the gospel message.

*Isa 54 is again about the final gathering of Israel and it names the prophet who will bring it about.

"For the Lord hath called thee as a woman forsaken and grieved in spirit, and a wife of youth, when thou wast refused, saith thy God. For a small moment have I forsaken thee; but with great mercies will I gather thee"

They are to "…enlarge the place of thy tent, and let them stretch forth the curtains of thine habitations: spare not, lengthen thy cords, and strengthen thy stakes;…and thy seed shall inherit the Gentiles"

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints is the gathering of Israel, we are the woman forsaken, the women John saw " the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent." Rev 12

"For thy Maker is thine husband; the Lord of hosts is his name; and thy Redeemer the Holy One of Israel; The God of the whole earth shall he be called."

He (Yahweh) will no long be just the God of Israel but the God of the whole earth, meaning missionaries have to be sent out.

13 And all thy children shall be taught of the Lord; and great shall be the peace of thy children.
14 In righteousness shalt thou be established: thou shalt be far from oppression; for thou shalt not fear: and from terror; for it shall not come near thee.
15 Behold, they (meaning those that oppose) shall surely gather together, but not by me: whosoever shall gather together against thee shall fall for thy sake.

This time is coming, we are obviously not establish in total righteousness as of yet,

Although peace does not have to mean physical peace, we find peace in the Lord. We may have oppression and there may be terror but the Lord is by our side and we feel peace.

John 14
"27 Peace I leave with you, my peace I give unto you: not as the world giveth, give I unto you. Let not your heart be troubled, neither let it be afraid"

Moving on;
16 Behold, I have created the smith that bloweth the coals in the fire, and that bringeth forth an instrument for his work;

The smith is Joseph Smith and his instrument is The Book of Mormon. By bring forth this sacred book he started the gathering of Israel. It’s interesting that Isaiah used the allegory of a smith in that the plates had to be forged,

"And it came to pass that the Lord commanded me, wherefore I did make plates of ore that I might engraven upon them the record of my people." 1Nephi 19

"….and I have created the waster to destroy. No weapon that is formed against thee shall prosper; and every tongue that shall rise against thee in judgment thou shalt condemn. This is the heritage of the servants of the Lord, and their righteousness is of me, saith the Lord."

Lot’s and lot’s of people have tried in vain to destroy the gathering of Israel ie the Church but they have always failed.

Con.
* Isa 29
8 It shall even be as when an hungry man dreameth, and, behold, he eateth; but he awaketh, and his soul is empty: or as when a thirsty man dreameth, and, behold, he drinketh; but he awaketh, and, behold, he is faint, and his soul hath appetite: so shall the multitude of all the nations be, that fight against mount Zion
9 Stay yourselves, and wonder; cry ye out, and cry: they are drunken, but not with wine; they stagger, but not with strong drink.
10 For the Lord hath poured out upon you the spirit of deep sleep, and hath closed your eyes: the prophets and your rulers, the seers hath he covered.
11 And the vision of all is become unto you as the words of a book that is sealed, which men deliver to one that is learned, saying, Read this, I pray thee: and he saith, I cannot; for it is sealed:
12 And the book is delivered to him that is not learned, saying, Read this, I pray thee: and he saith, I am not learned.

18 ¶And in that day shall the deaf hear the words of the book, and the eyes of the blind shall see out of obscurity, and out of darkness.
19 The meek also shall increase their joy in the Lord, and the poor among men shall rejoice in the Holy One of Israel.

Isaiah was prophesying about a time after the fall of Jerusalem (70ad) when there would be no Prophets on the earth, men would stumble for lack of knowledge. Amos also speaks of this time of famine;

11 ¶Behold, the days come, saith the Lord God, that I will send a famine in the land, not a famine of bread, nor a thirst for water, but of hearing the words of the Lord:
12 And they shall wander from sea to sea, and from the north even to the east, they shall run to and fro to seek the word of the Lord, and shall not find it.

But a new vision or revelation will be sent by way of a book. The learned man will not be able to read it but the unlearned man will feel inadequate precisely because of his lack of knowledge. Martin Harris took a transcript of the writings to three different learned men each declined saying they could not read it. One even said he can not read a sealed book.

But the book will be read, it is The Book of Mormon. Verse 18 and 19 are examples of how scriptures use reality as allegory. Marvelous innovations have been made making it possible for the deaf and blind to hear and read the words of the book.

But it also is speaking about how the knowledge of men will be increase the deep sleep will be lifted. The meek and the poor among men will turn to the Lord and that is just the way it has happened. Our missionaries find it is the meek of the earth who are more willing to listen to the gospel message.

*Isa 54 is again about the final gathering of Israel and it names the prophet who will bring it about.

"For the Lord hath called thee as a woman forsaken and grieved in spirit, and a wife of youth, when thou wast refused, saith thy God. For a small moment have I forsaken thee; but with great mercies will I gather thee"

They are to "…enlarge the place of thy tent, and let them stretch forth the curtains of thine habitations: spare not, lengthen thy cords, and strengthen thy stakes;…and thy seed shall inherit the Gentiles"

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints is the gathering of Israel, we are the woman forsaken, the women John saw " the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent." Rev 12

"For thy Maker is thine husband; the Lord of hosts is his name; and thy Redeemer the Holy One of Israel; The God of the whole earth shall he be called."

He (Yahweh) will no long be just the God of Israel but the God of the whole earth, meaning missionaries have to be sent out.

13 And all thy children shall be taught of the Lord; and great shall be the peace of thy children.
14 In righteousness shalt thou be established: thou shalt be far from oppression; for thou shalt not fear: and from terror; for it shall not come near thee.
15 Behold, they (meaning those that oppose) shall surely gather together, but not by me: whosoever shall gather together against thee shall fall for thy sake.

This time is coming, we are obviously not establish in total righteousness as of yet,

Although peace does not have to mean physical peace, we find peace in the Lord. We may have oppression and there may be terror but the Lord is by our side and we feel peace.

John 14
"27 Peace I leave with you, my peace I give unto you: not as the world giveth, give I unto you. Let not your heart be troubled, neither let it be afraid"

Moving on;
16 Behold, I have created the smith that bloweth the coals in the fire, and that bringeth forth an instrument for his work;

The smith is Joseph Smith and his instrument is The Book of Mormon. By bring forth this sacred book he started the gathering of Israel. It’s interesting that Isaiah used the allegory of a smith in that the plates had to be forged,

"And it came to pass that the Lord commanded me, wherefore I did make plates of ore that I might engraven upon them the record of my people." 1Nephi 19

"….and I have created the waster to destroy. No weapon that is formed against thee shall prosper; and every tongue that shall rise against thee in judgment thou shalt condemn. This is the heritage of the servants of the Lord, and their righteousness is of me, saith the Lord."

Lot’s and lot’s of people have tried in vain to destroy the gathering of Israel ie the Church but they have always failed.

Con.
I quoted Rev 12 with the woman being carried away into the wilderness it goes on to say the “the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.” In the next chapter he goes on to describe the great beast

“And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven. And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.” Rev 13

It reinforces Paul’s prophecy of the grievous wolves which would “enter in among you, not sparing the flock” Acts 20 and Amos’ prophecy of ; “…they shall wander from sea to sea, and from the north even to the east, they shall run to and fro to seek the word of the Lord, and shall not find it” The true Gospel of Jesus Christ would be lost.

**Jesus warned also that this would be true, he called it the “the abomination of desolation”. Starting in verse 21 of Matt 24 he said;

“For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be…..Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not. For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
Behold, I have told you before. Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.”

There will not be any place to go to find men who can teach the true Gospel of Christ;

This next part of this passage I have contemplate for years, it simply never made much sense to me, carcass and eagles until I read about an alterative translation, a non Mormon one.

Now we always talk in the since of a second coming but if you read Matt 24 closely there are two appearances and once I explain this alterative translation which I will give for Matt24; 27-28 and Luke 17:37 it will make sense.

There is “For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world” this happened after the fall of the temple in 70 ad. And there will be this period where people will run to and fro to seek a knowledge of God and shall not find it.

Then there is an appearance when the “lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together”

Note the eagles gather to him.

Then there is another time of “tribulation of those days” and when this second tribulation grows to a close, the sun will be darken then shall all mankind see his glorious appearance “… coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.” and he “send(s) his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect”

First the eagles gather to him then these angels are sent out, (just be patient with me)

So now we are ready to look at this passage more closely.
"For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together."

I found a website called KJV Today, Non Mormon
http://www.kjvtoday.com/home/eagles-or-vultures-in-matthew-2428-and-luke-1737

It explains that there could be several different ligament interpretations of these passages.

First lets look at the word eagle, the Greek word is aetos and means eagle, not vulture. Because a carcasses is mentioned in the passage some have translated it to vulture because eagles don’t eat dead carcasses they find laying around. (although I‘ve seen a beautiful golden eagle eating a dead deer, you would not believe how really big they are).

This website says the eagles could be symbolic of angels, he quotes Exodus 19:4, Isaiah 40:31 and Revelation 12:14.

“There is a textual variant in Revelation 8:13. In Jerome's Vulgate and Alexandrian manuscripts, "eagle" replaces the Textus Receptus reading of "angel." NASB (Alexandrian text): "Then I looked, and I heard an eagle flying in midheaven, saying with a loud voice,..”

So with the first appearance the eagles/angels gather to him and in the second he sends the angels out to gather in the elect. I’m assuming this is what Paul was speaking of in 1Thess 4 “…we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air:”

Now I want to look at Luke 17 “Wheresoever the body is, thither will the eagles be gathered together.” The word body there is different than the Matthew reading, body is ‘soma’. Paul uses the word to mean the Church and inter plays it with the body of Christ. So we could understand this to mean ‘Where the body/church of Christ is the angels will gather’. Or just where Christ is the angels will gather.

I really think the Luke retentions the correct one but I want to look at Matt 24 again.

If we look at Strongs the word carcass in the context of the passage is out of place.

There is ptoma which means ‘a down fall’ it is only used in the New Testament 4 times each as a carcass or dead body. Three out of the four makes sense, a dead body is part of the context of the passage.

There is what Strongs calls an alternative word pipto which means to descend from a higher place to a lower place, as in alighting strike descending. So now let’s put that into the context of the passage.

“"For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. For wheresoever the lighting descends to, there will the eagles/angels be gathered together."

In Acts 3 Peter prophesied that there would be a time of refreshing, a time of restoration. When “…he/the Father shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you”. This appearance happened with God the Father and Jesus Christ appeared to Joseph Smith.

‘For as the lightning cometh out of the east and shineth even unto the west”

The Jesus is the light of the world, he first came to his own in the land of Israel but this time he came to the west in the land of Jacob which we know has the Americas.

The angels did come, first there was the one flying in the mist of heaven “having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people,..” Rev 14 That was Moroni with The Book of Mormon.

Then John the Baptist came with the Aaronic Priesthood, then Peter James and John came bestowing the Melchisedec upon Joseph and Oliver.

And then “…. Moses appeared before us, and committed unto us the keys of the gathering of Israel from the four parts of the earth,….After this, Elias appeared, and committed the dispensation of the gospel of Abraham,…Elijah the prophet, who was taken to heaven without tasting death, stood before us, and said:

“Behold, the time has fully come, which was spoken of by the mouth of Malachi—testifying that he [Elijah] should be sent, before the great and dreadful day of the Lord come. To turn the hearts of the fathers to the children, and the children to the fathers, lest the whole earth be smitten with a curse—Therefore, the keys of this dispensation are committed into your hands…”

The Book of Mormon and the restoration of the Gospel answers all of these prophecies.
 
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Oh, good grief---we'd all better go get lunch--and dinner--and take a nap first------what, you couldn't take these just a few at a time instead of all at once???!!! I'll have to also take a pain pill for this---not going to deal with all of it at one time, I can't handle that, somebody maybe can get started--I'm taking a break!!
 
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ToBeLoved

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Oh good now I can post this again Finding the Book of Mormon in the Bible.

The Bible prophesied of the Book of Mormon

* "And he said, I saw all Israel scattered upon the hills, as sheep that have not a shepherd: and the Lord said, These have no master…."1 Kings 22

John 10:16
16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.


The bulk of the tribes of Joseph, Ephraim and Manasseh, along with the other tribes were taken away in 721 bc.

Moses himself prophesied "And the Lord shall scatter you among the nations, and ye shall be left few in number among the heathen, whither the Lord shall lead you." Deut 4

Note the Lord would lead them as they were scattered.

Jesus was not sent to teach the gentiles but to the fold. In John 10:1 Jesus is saying he’s going to speak to these other sheep who are no longer part of this fold. They will become part of this fold once again when they hear my voice.

*In Gen 49 Joseph of Egypt is given a blessing and I’m using Strongs to explains some of the means;

22 ¶Joseph is a fruitful bough, even a fruitful bough by a well; whose branches/daughters run over the wall:
23 The archers have sorely grieved him, and shot at him, and hated him:
24 But his bow abode in strength, and the arms of his hands were made strong by the hands of the mighty God of Jacob; (from thence is the shepherd, the stone of Israel
25 Even by the God of thy father, who shall help thee; and by the Almighty, who shall bless thee with blessings of heaven above, blessings of the deep that lieth under, blessings of the breasts, and of the womb:
26 The blessings of thy father have prevailed above the blessings of my progenitors unto the utmost bound of the everlasting hills: they shall be on the head of Joseph, and on the crown of the head of him that was separate from his brethren.

Blessings of heaven is the knowledge of gospel, blessings of the deep is wealth/gold, blessings of the breast and womb are a very large posterity.

Then Jacob claims he has received a greater blessing than that of his fathers and this greater blessing extends beyond the boundary of their promised land to a place called "the everlasting hills". We claim this is the Americas, that the chain of mountain ranges which extends from the Brooks Range of Alaska all the way down to the Andes in South America are the everlasting hills. Joseph was being promised that this land would be his inheritance.

*The word branches is used which is an idiom for daughters, it’s Joseph’s daughters who will go over the wall or beyond their borders. (look it up in Strongs)

In Neh 7 there is a strange little story which takes place after they get back from captivity in 537bc. There is a group of men trying to claim their Levitical descendant but they are unable to prove it because they could not produce their genealogy.

"63 And of the priests: the children of Habaiah, the children of Koz, the children of Barzillai, which took one of the daughters of Barzillai the Gileadite to wife, and was called after their name.
64 These sought their register among those that were reckoned by genealogy, but it was not found: therefore were they, as polluted, put from the priesthood.
65 And the Tirshatha said unto them, that they should not eat of the most holy things, till there stood up a priest with Urim and Thummim."

Imagine that they would use a Urim and Thummim to find out the truth.

Gilead was a descendant of Manasseh and Zelophehad was a descendant of Gilead. He had no sons but 5 daughter, their names are even given. The tradition was that if a man had no sons to carry on his family name then his daughter’s children would be recorded under his linage. So apparently some of his great grand daughters had married into Levitical lines and now her descendants were trying to show that though they were from the linage of Manasseh through there grandmother’s line they were also Levities, but they could not find the record of their genealogy. So why not?

In the Book of Mormon there is a story of Nephi and his brothers returning to Jerusalem to obtain the Plates of Brass. These plates contain the writings of Moses and many of the prophets including Isaiah. They go through a little bit of an adventure to obtaining them and once they do Lehi finds on them " …a genealogy of his fathers; wherefore he knew that he was a descendant of Joseph.." . Later in Alma 10:3 we are told it is through Manasseh.

Some have felt that Lehi was in the same position as these men in the Old Testament. He seems to be a Levite priest, he carries out several different sacrifices and later they build a temple and keep the law of Moses. He is genially surprised to fine that he is also a descendant of Joseph. He then sends his sons back again to Jerusalem to fetch some wives, Ishmael’s daughters.

Erastus Snow, Orson Pratt and Franklin Richards all said Joseph told them that in the lost 116 pages which were stolen from Martin Harris it said that Ishmael’s family who joined them in their journey were of the house of Ephraim.

"…thus fulfilling the words of Jacob upon Ephraim and Manasseh in the 48th chapter of Genesis, which says: "And let my name be named on them, and the name of my fathers Abraham and Isaac; and let them grow into a multitude in the midst of the land." (Fair)

Only someone well versed in the little nuances of the Bible would know these things. Joseph Smith was not at the time schooled in Hebrew and to catch the idea it was through the branches or daughters of Joseph which would go over the wall is really a proof of The Book of Mormon.

*There are 3 prophecies found in Eze 37 have been and are in the process of being fulfilled. Ezekiel was one of the captives carried away by Nebuchadnezzar into Babylon.

The first prophecy runs from verse 1-14, Ezekiel see a valley of dry bones, Then he said unto me, Son of man, these bones are the whole house of Israel: ,

The Lord causes the bones to come together, we‘re not talking about the actual resurrection but the revitalization of Israel. Ezekiel prophesies "Come from the four winds, O breath, and breathe upon these slain, that they may live." The once dead and scattered bodies live and become a great army. They are promised;

‘…I will open your graves, and cause you to come up out of your graves, and bring you into the land of Israel….And shall put my spirit in you, and ye shall live, and I shall place you in your own land: then shall ye know that I the Lord have spoken it, and performed it, saith the Lord.”

1, This gathering of Israel is the work of the Lord and not because man willed it into happening.
2, They will know the true Lord, they will know their Messiah
3, They will return to the land of Israel with the blessings of the Lord

The second prophecy is directly about The Book Of Mormon

15 ¶The word of the Lord came again unto me, saying,
16 Moreover, thou son of man, take thee one stick, and write upon it, For Judah, and for the children of Israel his companions: then take another stick, and write upon it, For Joseph, the stick of Ephraim, and for all the house of Israel his companions:
17 And join them one to another into one stick; and they shall become one in thine hand.
18 ¶And when the children of thy people shall speak unto thee, saying, Wilt thou not shew us what thou meanest by these?
19 Say unto them, Thus saith the Lord God; Behold, I will take the stick of Joseph, which is in the hand of Ephraim, and the tribes of Israel his fellows, and will put them with him, even with the stick of Judah, and make them one stick, and they shall be one in mine hand.
20 ¶And the sticks whereon thou writest shall be in thine hand before their eyes.

The word stick there is ‘ets’ it means literally wood. How it is used in a sentence will clarify the intent of the writer. If one is digging in the dirt with an ets then it is a plow, if one plucks an apple off an ets then it is a fruit tree.

This is not to be confused with a rod or the word matteh as in Num 17, where the tribes write their names on the rods to signify heads of households.

This ets is a writing tablet, one was found in 1953 in the Babylonian city of Calah. In Babylon at this time and across the Middle East wooden writing tablets filled with wax were being used. They were used in Greece and in Rome up into the time of medieval Europe. In Luke 1:63 when Zacharias "…asked for a writing table, and wrote, saying, His name is John…" this kind of tablet they would have brought him.

These wooden tablets would have been "join them one to another" by way of a hinge. Also each would have been given a title as Eze 37 indicates. The New English Bible translates this passage;

"These were the words of the Lord to me: Man, take one leaf of a wooden tablet and write on it, ‘Judah and his associates of Israel.’ Then take another leaf and write on it, ‘Joseph, the leaf of Ephraim and all of his associates of Israel.’ Now bring the two together to form one tablet; then they will be a folding tablet in your hand."

I have one of those folding tablets,

The Stick of Judah is the Bible. It tells the story of the Jews, Levities, Benjamin and remnants of the different tribes who remained after the bulk of the Ten Tribes were led away by the hand of the Lord.

The Stick of Ephraim is the Book of Mormon. It is about Lehi and Ishmael’s families who were descendant Joseph through Ephraim & Manasseh. In the Book of Mormon story there is also a second group made up of various tribes who leave Jerusalem and follow Lehi’s family to this new land promised to Jacob.

You can see a picture of some wooden tablets here;
www.lds.org/ensign/1987/02/ezekiels-sticks-and-the-gathering-of-israel?lang=eng

These two histories have been bought together and are one in our hands. Although it’s much easier to access it on line with all of its cross referencing than to carry it around.

Now the third prophecy of Eze 37:21-28
I won’t copy the whole thing but bring out several different points. It continues with the theme of the gathering of Israel.

"… and will gather them on every side, and bring them into their own land: And I will make them one nation in the land upon the mountains of Israel; … And they shall dwell in the land that I have given unto Jacob my servant .."

Remember Jacob’s promised land was greater than his father’s blessing and was to be found in the utmost bounds of the everlasting hills. He uses David as an idiom for Jesus who was his descendant, he will be their King. " and will set my sanctuary in the midst of them for evermore. My tabernacle also shall be with them: yea, I will be their God, and they shall be my people."

We claim that The Church Of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints is this gathering of Israel. We have the Tablets joined together, we have the Lord’s sanctuary in our midst, in fact we have quite a few of them and Jesus is our King.

Con.
* Isa 29
8 It shall even be as when an hungry man dreameth, and, behold, he eateth; but he awaketh, and his soul is empty: or as when a thirsty man dreameth, and, behold, he drinketh; but he awaketh, and, behold, he is faint, and his soul hath appetite: so shall the multitude of all the nations be, that fight against mount Zion
9 Stay yourselves, and wonder; cry ye out, and cry: they are drunken, but not with wine; they stagger, but not with strong drink.
10 For the Lord hath poured out upon you the spirit of deep sleep, and hath closed your eyes: the prophets and your rulers, the seers hath he covered.
11 And the vision of all is become unto you as the words of a book that is sealed, which men deliver to one that is learned, saying, Read this, I pray thee: and he saith, I cannot; for it is sealed:
12 And the book is delivered to him that is not learned, saying, Read this, I pray thee: and he saith, I am not learned.

18 ¶And in that day shall the deaf hear the words of the book, and the eyes of the blind shall see out of obscurity, and out of darkness.
19 The meek also shall increase their joy in the Lord, and the poor among men shall rejoice in the Holy One of Israel.

Isaiah was prophesying about a time after the fall of Jerusalem (70ad) when there would be no Prophets on the earth, men would stumble for lack of knowledge. Amos also speaks of this time of famine;

11 ¶Behold, the days come, saith the Lord God, that I will send a famine in the land, not a famine of bread, nor a thirst for water, but of hearing the words of the Lord:
12 And they shall wander from sea to sea, and from the north even to the east, they shall run to and fro to seek the word of the Lord, and shall not find it.

But a new vision or revelation will be sent by way of a book. The learned man will not be able to read it but the unlearned man will feel inadequate precisely because of his lack of knowledge. Martin Harris took a transcript of the writings to three different learned men each declined saying they could not read it. One even said he can not read a sealed book.

But the book will be read, it is The Book of Mormon. Verse 18 and 19 are examples of how scriptures use reality as allegory. Marvelous innovations have been made making it possible for the deaf and blind to hear and read the words of the book.

But it also is speaking about how the knowledge of men will be increase the deep sleep will be lifted. The meek and the poor among men will turn to the Lord and that is just the way it has happened. Our missionaries find it is the meek of the earth who are more willing to listen to the gospel message.

*Isa 54 is again about the final gathering of Israel and it names the prophet who will bring it about.

"For the Lord hath called thee as a woman forsaken and grieved in spirit, and a wife of youth, when thou wast refused, saith thy God. For a small moment have I forsaken thee; but with great mercies will I gather thee"

They are to "…enlarge the place of thy tent, and let them stretch forth the curtains of thine habitations: spare not, lengthen thy cords, and strengthen thy stakes;…and thy seed shall inherit the Gentiles"

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints is the gathering of Israel, we are the woman forsaken, the women John saw " the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent." Rev 12

"For thy Maker is thine husband; the Lord of hosts is his name; and thy Redeemer the Holy One of Israel; The God of the whole earth shall he be called."

He (Yahweh) will no long be just the God of Israel but the God of the whole earth, meaning missionaries have to be sent out.

13 And all thy children shall be taught of the Lord; and great shall be the peace of thy children.
14 In righteousness shalt thou be established: thou shalt be far from oppression; for thou shalt not fear: and from terror; for it shall not come near thee.
15 Behold, they (meaning those that oppose) shall surely gather together, but not by me: whosoever shall gather together against thee shall fall for thy sake.

This time is coming, we are obviously not establish in total righteousness as of yet,

Although peace does not have to mean physical peace, we find peace in the Lord. We may have oppression and there may be terror but the Lord is by our side and we feel peace.

John 14
"27 Peace I leave with you, my peace I give unto you: not as the world giveth, give I unto you. Let not your heart be troubled, neither let it be afraid"

Moving on;
16 Behold, I have created the smith that bloweth the coals in the fire, and that bringeth forth an instrument for his work;

The smith is Joseph Smith and his instrument is The Book of Mormon. By bring forth this sacred book he started the gathering of Israel. It’s interesting that Isaiah used the allegory of a smith in that the plates had to be forged,

"And it came to pass that the Lord commanded me, wherefore I did make plates of ore that I might engraven upon them the record of my people." 1Nephi 19

"….and I have created the waster to destroy. No weapon that is formed against thee shall prosper; and every tongue that shall rise against thee in judgment thou shalt condemn. This is the heritage of the servants of the Lord, and their righteousness is of me, saith the Lord."

Lot’s and lot’s of people have tried in vain to destroy the gathering of Israel ie the Church but they have always failed.

Con.
* Isa 29
8 It shall even be as when an hungry man dreameth, and, behold, he eateth; but he awaketh, and his soul is empty: or as when a thirsty man dreameth, and, behold, he drinketh; but he awaketh, and, behold, he is faint, and his soul hath appetite: so shall the multitude of all the nations be, that fight against mount Zion
9 Stay yourselves, and wonder; cry ye out, and cry: they are drunken, but not with wine; they stagger, but not with strong drink.
10 For the Lord hath poured out upon you the spirit of deep sleep, and hath closed your eyes: the prophets and your rulers, the seers hath he covered.
11 And the vision of all is become unto you as the words of a book that is sealed, which men deliver to one that is learned, saying, Read this, I pray thee: and he saith, I cannot; for it is sealed:
12 And the book is delivered to him that is not learned, saying, Read this, I pray thee: and he saith, I am not learned.

18 ¶And in that day shall the deaf hear the words of the book, and the eyes of the blind shall see out of obscurity, and out of darkness.
19 The meek also shall increase their joy in the Lord, and the poor among men shall rejoice in the Holy One of Israel.

Isaiah was prophesying about a time after the fall of Jerusalem (70ad) when there would be no Prophets on the earth, men would stumble for lack of knowledge. Amos also speaks of this time of famine;

11 ¶Behold, the days come, saith the Lord God, that I will send a famine in the land, not a famine of bread, nor a thirst for water, but of hearing the words of the Lord:
12 And they shall wander from sea to sea, and from the north even to the east, they shall run to and fro to seek the word of the Lord, and shall not find it.

But a new vision or revelation will be sent by way of a book. The learned man will not be able to read it but the unlearned man will feel inadequate precisely because of his lack of knowledge. Martin Harris took a transcript of the writings to three different learned men each declined saying they could not read it. One even said he can not read a sealed book.

But the book will be read, it is The Book of Mormon. Verse 18 and 19 are examples of how scriptures use reality as allegory. Marvelous innovations have been made making it possible for the deaf and blind to hear and read the words of the book.

But it also is speaking about how the knowledge of men will be increase the deep sleep will be lifted. The meek and the poor among men will turn to the Lord and that is just the way it has happened. Our missionaries find it is the meek of the earth who are more willing to listen to the gospel message.

*Isa 54 is again about the final gathering of Israel and it names the prophet who will bring it about.

"For the Lord hath called thee as a woman forsaken and grieved in spirit, and a wife of youth, when thou wast refused, saith thy God. For a small moment have I forsaken thee; but with great mercies will I gather thee"

They are to "…enlarge the place of thy tent, and let them stretch forth the curtains of thine habitations: spare not, lengthen thy cords, and strengthen thy stakes;…and thy seed shall inherit the Gentiles"

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints is the gathering of Israel, we are the woman forsaken, the women John saw " the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent." Rev 12

"For thy Maker is thine husband; the Lord of hosts is his name; and thy Redeemer the Holy One of Israel; The God of the whole earth shall he be called."

He (Yahweh) will no long be just the God of Israel but the God of the whole earth, meaning missionaries have to be sent out.

13 And all thy children shall be taught of the Lord; and great shall be the peace of thy children.
14 In righteousness shalt thou be established: thou shalt be far from oppression; for thou shalt not fear: and from terror; for it shall not come near thee.
15 Behold, they (meaning those that oppose) shall surely gather together, but not by me: whosoever shall gather together against thee shall fall for thy sake.

This time is coming, we are obviously not establish in total righteousness as of yet,

Although peace does not have to mean physical peace, we find peace in the Lord. We may have oppression and there may be terror but the Lord is by our side and we feel peace.

John 14
"27 Peace I leave with you, my peace I give unto you: not as the world giveth, give I unto you. Let not your heart be troubled, neither let it be afraid"

Moving on;
16 Behold, I have created the smith that bloweth the coals in the fire, and that bringeth forth an instrument for his work;

The smith is Joseph Smith and his instrument is The Book of Mormon. By bring forth this sacred book he started the gathering of Israel. It’s interesting that Isaiah used the allegory of a smith in that the plates had to be forged,

"And it came to pass that the Lord commanded me, wherefore I did make plates of ore that I might engraven upon them the record of my people." 1Nephi 19

"….and I have created the waster to destroy. No weapon that is formed against thee shall prosper; and every tongue that shall rise against thee in judgment thou shalt condemn. This is the heritage of the servants of the Lord, and their righteousness is of me, saith the Lord."

Lot’s and lot’s of people have tried in vain to destroy the gathering of Israel ie the Church but they have always failed.

Con.
I quoted Rev 12 with the woman being carried away into the wilderness it goes on to say the “the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.” In the next chapter he goes on to describe the great beast

“And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven. And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.” Rev 13

It reinforces Paul’s prophecy of the grievous wolves which would “enter in among you, not sparing the flock” Acts 20 and Amos’ prophecy of ; “…they shall wander from sea to sea, and from the north even to the east, they shall run to and fro to seek the word of the Lord, and shall not find it” The true Gospel of Jesus Christ would be lost.

**Jesus warned also that this would be true, he called it the “the abomination of desolation”. Starting in verse 21 of Matt 24 he said;

“For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be…..Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not. For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
Behold, I have told you before. Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.”

There will not be any place to go to find men who can teach the true Gospel of Christ;

This next part of this passage I have contemplate for years, it simply never made much sense to me, carcass and eagles until I read about an alterative translation, a non Mormon one.

Now we always talk in the since of a second coming but if you read Matt 24 closely there are two appearances and once I explain this alterative translation which I will give for Matt24; 27-28 and Luke 17:37 it will make sense.

There is “For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world” this happened after the fall of the temple in 70 ad. And there will be this period where people will run to and fro to seek a knowledge of God and shall not find it.

Then there is an appearance when the “lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together”

Note the eagles gather to him.

Then there is another time of “tribulation of those days” and when this second tribulation grows to a close, the sun will be darken then shall all mankind see his glorious appearance “… coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.” and he “send(s) his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect”

First the eagles gather to him then these angels are sent out, (just be patient with me)

So now we are ready to look at this passage more closely.
"For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together."

I found a website called KJV Today, Non Mormon
http://www.kjvtoday.com/home/eagles-or-vultures-in-matthew-2428-and-luke-1737

It explains that there could be several different ligament interpretations of these passages.

First lets look at the word eagle, the Greek word is aetos and means eagle, not vulture. Because a carcasses is mentioned in the passage some have translated it to vulture because eagles don’t eat dead carcasses they find laying around. (although I‘ve seen a beautiful golden eagle eating a dead deer, you would not believe how really big they are).

This website says the eagles could be symbolic of angels, he quotes Exodus 19:4, Isaiah 40:31 and Revelation 12:14.

“There is a textual variant in Revelation 8:13. In Jerome's Vulgate and Alexandrian manuscripts, "eagle" replaces the Textus Receptus reading of "angel." NASB (Alexandrian text): "Then I looked, and I heard an eagle flying in midheaven, saying with a loud voice,..”

So with the first appearance the eagles/angels gather to him and in the second he sends the angels out to gather in the elect. I’m assuming this is what Paul was speaking of in 1Thess 4 “…we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air:”

Now I want to look at Luke 17 “Wheresoever the body is, thither will the eagles be gathered together.” The word body there is different than the Matthew reading, body is ‘soma’. Paul uses the word to mean the Church and inter plays it with the body of Christ. So we could understand this to mean ‘Where the body/church of Christ is the angels will gather’. Or just where Christ is the angels will gather.

I really think the Luke retentions the correct one but I want to look at Matt 24 again.

If we look at Strongs the word carcass in the context of the passage is out of place.

There is ptoma which means ‘a down fall’ it is only used in the New Testament 4 times each as a carcass or dead body. Three out of the four makes sense, a dead body is part of the context of the passage.

There is what Strongs calls an alternative word pipto which means to descend from a higher place to a lower place, as in alighting strike descending. So now let’s put that into the context of the passage.

“"For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. For wheresoever the lighting descends to, there will the eagles/angels be gathered together."

In Acts 3 Peter prophesied that there would be a time of refreshing, a time of restoration. When “…he/the Father shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you”. This appearance happened with God the Father and Jesus Christ appeared to Joseph Smith.

‘For as the lightning cometh out of the east and shineth even unto the west”

The Jesus is the light of the world, he first came to his own in the land of Israel but this time he came to the west in the land of Jacob which we know has the Americas.

The angels did come, first there was the one flying in the mist of heaven “having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people,..” Rev 14 That was Moroni with The Book of Mormon.

Then John the Baptist came with the Aaronic Priesthood, then Peter James and John came bestowing the Melchisedec upon Joseph and Oliver.

And then “…. Moses appeared before us, and committed unto us the keys of the gathering of Israel from the four parts of the earth,….After this, Elias appeared, and committed the dispensation of the gospel of Abraham,…Elijah the prophet, who was taken to heaven without tasting death, stood before us, and said:

“Behold, the time has fully come, which was spoken of by the mouth of Malachi—testifying that he [Elijah] should be sent, before the great and dreadful day of the Lord come. To turn the hearts of the fathers to the children, and the children to the fathers, lest the whole earth be smitten with a curse—Therefore, the keys of this dispensation are committed into your hands…”

The Book of Mormon and the restoration of the Gospel answers all of these prophecies.
Since I am on my phone I'm not parsing out this long post.

If you think God scattered Israel around the globe for Mormons. Lol

If you think the other flock in John is Mornons, when it is clear as day it's the Jews.

Where do you get this from. You don't even know how to understand the Bible.

Wow
 
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Ironhold

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In 1955, Thomas Ferguson, a Latter Day Saint and the founder of the New World Archaeological Foundation (NWAF), with five years of funding from The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (LDS Church), began to dig throughout Mesoamerica for evidence of the veracity of the Book of Mormon claims. In a 1961 newsletter, Ferguson predicted that although nothing had been found, the Book of Mormon cities would be found within ten years. - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historical_authenticity_of_the_Book_of_Mormon

Ferguson was a lawyer, not an archaeologist, and so came at the project with unrealistic expectations of what the expedition would be like. Ferguson was the wrong man for the job, and having him lead the work was a bad decision all around. In that sense, the few members of the church who know about the full situation don't take him or his (lack of) findings seriously.
 
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ToBeLoved

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TBL, does Jesus not say that He as other sheep which are not of this (Israel) fold?
Jesus was talking about Christians who believe in Christ as God and then the Jews who do not believe Christ was the messiah.

No Mormonism in that. 2,000 years ago
 
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ToBeLoved

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Oh, good grief---we'd all better go get lunch--and dinner--and take a nap first------what, you couldn't take these just a few at a time instead of all at once???!!! I'll have to also take a pain pill for this---not going to deal with all of it at one time, I can't handle that, somebody maybe can get started--I'm taking a break!!
I know. It's like there is so much there to correct, who knows where to start. I have to take a few aspirin too.
 
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ToBeLoved

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Oh good now I can post this again Finding the Book of Mormon in the Bible.

The Bible prophesied of the Book of Mormon

* "And he said, I saw all Israel scattered upon the hills, as sheep that have not a shepherd: and the Lord said, These have no master…."1 Kings 22
Israel being scattered had nothing to do with Mormonism. This is in the Old Testament and happened way before Jesus was even born. When the Hebrew people were all together, they had Kings to rule over them who had the same God. Once the people of Israel were scattered among the earth, they no longer had a ruler who also believed in the same God, so instead of having the law of God as the law of the people, Israel was now scattered and under rulers who did not believe in the same God or even one God for that matter.

So. No. This is not about Mormons, at all.
 
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Jane_Doe

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Jesus was talking about Christians who believe in Christ as God and then the Jews who do not believe Christ was the messiah.

So, you are saying that Jesus when Christ was referring to other sheep, He was referring to other people whom believed in His divinity? People whom were not in Israel?
 
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ToBeLoved

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Ferguson was a lawyer, not an archaeologist, and so came at the project with unrealistic expectations of what the expedition would be like. Ferguson was the wrong man for the job, and having him lead the work was a bad decision all around. In that sense, the few members of the church who know about the full situation don't take him or his (lack of) findings seriously.
that sounds very different than the article. It must carry some weight otherwise it would have been revised, so unless you have a source of your opinion, the article stands.
 
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Ironhold

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