Is modern secular society headed down the path to Sodom and Gomorrah.

[BCP1928]

Then you don't understand the basic concept about the destinction between the subjective and the objective world that is applied to just about everything from morality to science.

You have created a false representation of what I actually said. You highlighted my own words up until I said "Its making those feelings a reality in the objective world". That is the destinction between the subjective and the objective I was clarifying.

No one says that the inner subjective feelings and beliefs of others is not real to the person (the subject). Its the application of those subjective feelings and beliefs in situations that involve other peoples subjective feelings and beliefs which are different. So there needs to be some objective basis for determining what is truth and real.

Maybe you should go back and address the example I gave:

"Back in San Francisco, many years ago, there was a man who lost all his money in a risky business venture. It affected the balance of his mind, and he eventually declared himself to be Emperor of the United States. Somebody gave him a second-hand fancy uniform and he lived the rest of his life as the Emperor. He was popular and well-liked in that role, issuing uplifting proclamations and occasional imperial bonds for small amounts of money. In other words, his delusion was harmless and everybody went along with it."

What would you have done about it if you lived in San Francisco then? What would your response to this man have been?

I can tell you what my response would have been. I would have been nice to the old guy, called him "your majesty" and probably shouted him a beer once in a while. You insist that I would have to change my perception of objective reality to do that, but I don't see how.

 

[Gregory Thompson]

This just in from Ezekiel 16:

This was the sin of your sister Sodom: She and her daughters were arrogant, overfed and unconcerned; they did not help the poor and needy. They were filled with pride and did detestable things before me.

Therefore I did away with them as you have seen.

Samaria did not commit half the sins you did. You have done more detestable things than they, and have made your sisters seem righteous by all these things you have done.

So the "example" made of, that was Sodom and Gomorrah, was exceeded by Israel. Israel made Sodom look righteous by comparison.

The main sin of Sodom was being wealthy and having no concern for those who were poor. There were also other detestable things that were done with a heart filled with pride.

However, since by comparison Israel was way worse than Sodom ... the common denominator of not helping the poor and needy .. seems to be the important issue here.

 

[dzheremi]

I don't really want to participate in this conversation, but I just wanted to say I love the story of Emperor Norton (the man who declared himself emperor in SF), and I would love to find one of the Emperor Norton dolls that were around at the time. It's hard to make homelessness and mental illness into a feel good story, but I think the story of Emperor Norton is the closest we'll ever get, precisely because the entire city just went with it, but in a good-natured way (not "let's laugh at this homeless guy because he's mentally ill", but rather "let's publish this guy's decrees in the paper because he's a loveable character and has some interesting plans for the city"). That's a level of humanity that I'm happy we at least once had.

 

[stevevw]

Then I still don't know what you are talking about. I believe that trans people have feelings about themselves, and that those feelings are real to them. I believe it to be objective reality: that such people with such feelings actually exist. I'm convinced of it. I know a few trans people and have actually talked to them about being trans. I am thoroughly convinced that the trans people I know actually exist and are experiencing the feelings that they claim. I take that to be objectively real about them. Consequently, when I hear or read about other trans people who I don't know I am inclined to accept as objective reality that they actually exist and have the feelings they claim. I suppose that there are people who are only pretending to have trans feelings for some reason, but I don't believe that they are very numerous.

I also believe that trans people can truely believe and feel they are the opposite sex. But that is different to determining whether a persons beliefs and feelings are real outside themselves and not misplaced. I will tend to believe people at face value until otherwise.

But its when peoples beliefs and feelings may encroach on others that the problems happen. A man can believe they are a women. But when they enter female spaces and sports its only natural and fair to question that situation as it is compromising others. Thats when there needs to be some objectivity as to what is actually going on.

You say that only a minority of trans people may pretend. But in reality the majority are to various degrees misplacing their feelings and beliefs. For example around 85% of young people who identify as trans will go onto realign with their nate sex. Quite often gays display similar feelings and are misdiagnosed as trans.

Also children with Autism can be wrongly disagnosed as trans as they are usually easily influenced. Not to mention that generally puberty and adolescence is a confusing time of development especially relating to identity. There is a high incident of body dysmorphia especially where theres psychological problems and esppecially for females who suffer higher rates of anxiety disorders. We have seen spikes in females identifying as trans when they were not.

So as you can see just taking peoples words for feeling the opposite sex is different when it may effect others in public or when kids and young people are involved due to the nature of the problem and the high incident of false positives.

Here again I seem to not understand you. Yes, when I interact with a trans person I generally assume that they truly believe in what they're feeling.

So do I. But that will go for anyone. If they tell me how they feel I am going to take them at face value unless I have reason not to. That may be if a male claims to be a women and then may enter a womens space. I think it is only right to question this as now its not longer just associated with them and their feelings but now they are affecting others. Especially if children are involved.

But that is the same for everyone. Someone may say they feel like a Viking and even dress as one and get into role plays. But once they start acting like a Viking on others and harming them then its a different story. People do the same to Christians. A person can believe in God but the moment they start pushing that on others and in schools its objected to. "Don't push your God on me" they say.

I think there was also examples of the SSM laws with the Cake decorator who did not want to create a cake for a gay wedding. So people can feel whatever. Its when this clashes with others who have different feelings and beliefs that the problems arise. Thats when we need some objective basis to sort it all out. I guess that the unreal idea of trying to create a relative society where different beliefs are competing. As opposed to a united belief.

I generally take that approach with all people, trans or not.

Yes and its partly because we are interactive creatures. We know we have an inner subjective world with feelings and experiences. In fact that is what interacting with others is all about, experiences and feelings. Sometimes gut feelings. So part of interacting is allowing people to be themselves. Humans are constantly reading the environment, peoples faces for cues, signs and info on whats going on.

But it would be unreal to say that when we do say encounter someone who feels the opposite sex its counter intuitive to us. Its not something we can easily assimulate. Most people tend to put aside their feelings and beliefs and engage the person rather than the identity. Usually eye contact and all else is secondary. But this would be the same for me as engaging with anyone who may be different.

You mean that if I think I am Ziggy Stardust nobody else is allowed to?

Of course not, look at all the Elvis impersonators lol. Its when someone truely believes they are Elvis or Ziggy or Christ is when we need to be concerned. Then the line between reality and delusion has been crossed and someone may get hurt. Even if thats the person themselves.

But if they really want to be Ziggy and it doesn't harm anyone then why not. Though I am going to draw the line if they start singing and they don't do justice to the original artist lol.

What law is there that requires that we have to accept other people's feelings as real to them? I shouldn't think a law would be necessary. Can you give an example?

I thought there was a law that made subjective identity a protected species like race or sex. So if thats the case descriminating against someone on the basis of gender identity is against the law. How do you think this law may be breach.

Do you think that not acknowledging say a male who believes they are a women is wrong. Say someone calls them a man rather than a women. What about denying a male who truely believes they are a female in being allowed to enter womens spaces. Its that descriminatory. What about a male not dating a biological male who identifies as a women. Is that being bigoted against transwomen.

If as they say identifying as a women makes someone a women in every respect as much as a biological women. If gender identity is a real entity protected under the law like race then all the above should be illegal as if we replace identity with race we can clearly see its descrimination and against the law.

It doesn't have to be laws. It can be policy. A school that allows a transfemale to enter females toilets is making other females accept a trans persons feelings. A female who has to box against a biological male identifying as a female due to Oylmpic rules has to accept the trans boxers feelings. Or at least be put in a position where if they don't they will not be able to persue their own dreams.

When a school or organisation allows males to enter womens spaces they are imposing an ideology on women who may disagree but have no choice but to put aside their own feelings and beliefs. Why should the majority be made to do that. If this was say Creationism in schools or a Christian trying to push their belief at the Olympics like the surfer who had a mere illustration on his surf board and denied.

 

[BCP1928]

I also believe that trans people can truely believe and feel they are the opposite sex. But that is different to determining whether a persons beliefs and feelings are real outside themselves and not misplaced. I will tend to believe people at face value until otherwise.

But its when peoples beliefs and feelings may encroach on others that the problems happen. A man can believe they are a women. But when they enter female spaces and sports its only natural and fair to question that situation as it is compromising others. Thats when there needs to be some objectivity as to what is actually going on.

You say that only a minority of trans people may pretend. But in reality the majority are to various degrees misplacing their feelings and beliefs. For example around 85% of young people who identify as trans will go onto realign with their nate sex. Quite often gays display similar feelings and are misdiagnosed as trans.

Also children with Autism can be wrongly disagnosed as trans as they are usually easily influenced. Not to mention that generally puberty and adolescence is a confusing time of development especially relating to identity. There is a high incident of body dysmorphia especially where theres psychological problems and esppecially for females who suffer higher rates of anxiety disorders. We have seen spikes in females identifying as trans when they were not.

That's why gender affirming care is necessary. In those cases it serves as reassurance that the women are not trans.

So as you can see just taking peoples words for feeling the opposite sex is different when it may effect others in public or when kids and young people are involved due to the nature of the problem and the high incident of false positives.

So do I. But that will go for anyone. If they tell me how they feel I am going to take them at face value unless I have reason not to. That may be if a male claims to be a women and then may enter a womens space. I think it is only right to question this as now its not longer just associated with them and their feelings but now they are affecting others. Especially if children are involved.

But that is the same for everyone. Someone may say they feel like a Viking and even dress as one and get into role plays. But once they start acting like a Viking on others and harming them then its a different story. People do the same to Christians. A person can believe in God but the moment they start pushing that on others and in schools its objected to. "Don't push your God on me" they say.

I think there was also examples of the SSM laws with the Cake decorator who did not want to create a cake for a gay wedding. So people can feel whatever. Its when this clashes with others who have different feelings and beliefs that the problems arise. Thats when we need some objective basis to sort it all out. I guess that the unreal idea of trying to create a relative society where different beliefs are competing. As opposed to a united belief.

Yes and its partly because we are interactive creatures. We know we have an inner subjective world with feelings and experiences. In fact that is what interacting with others is all about, experiences and feelings. Sometimes gut feelings. So part of interacting is allowing people to be themselves. Humans are constantly reading the environment, peoples faces for cues, signs and info on whats going on.

But it would be unreal to say that when we do say encounter someone who feels the opposite sex its counter intuitive to us. Its not something we can easily assimulate. Most people tend to put aside their feelings and beliefs and engage the person rather than the identity. Usually eye contact and all else is secondary. But this would be the same for me as engaging with anyone who may be different.

Of course not, look at all the Elvis impersonators lol. Its when someone truely believes they are Elvis or Ziggy or Christ is when we need to be concerned. Then the line between reality and delusion has been crossed and someone may get hurt. Even if thats the person themselves.

Of course, an Elvis impersonator who thought he actually was Elvis has a clinical condition. A trans woman who thought she was a real biological woman, just with the wrong organs is suffering from a clinical condition called sexual dysphoria. Other than that, trans women are well aware that they are biological males and trans men are well aware that they are biological females. Their close associates (and, in cases I am personally acquainted with, their families) will know as well.

But if they really want to be Ziggy and it doesn't harm anyone then why not. Though I am going to draw the line if they start singing and they don't do justice to the original artist lol.

I thought there was a law that made subjective identity a protected species like race or sex. So if thats the case descriminating against someone on the basis of gender identity is against the law. How do you think this law may be breach.

Do you think that not acknowledging say a male who believes they are a women is wrong. Say someone calls them a man rather than a women. What about denying a male who truely believes they are a female in being allowed to enter womens spaces. Its that descriminatory. What about a male not dating a biological male who identifies as a women. Is that being bigoted against transwomen.

If as they say identifying as a women makes someone a women in every respect as much as a biological women. If gender identity is a real entity protected under the law like race then all the above should be illegal as if we replace identity with race we can clearly see its descrimination and against the law.

It doesn't have to be laws. It can be policy. A school that allows a transfemale to enter females toilets is making other females accept a trans persons feelings. A female who has to box against a biological male identifying as a female due to Oylmpic rules has to accept the trans boxers feelings. Or at least be put in a position where if they don't they will not be able to persue their own dreams.

In the recent Olympic boxing case, both fighters were biological females.

When a school or organisation allows males to enter womens spaces they are imposing an ideology on women who may disagree but have no choice but to put aside their own feelings and beliefs. Why should the majority be made to do that. If this was say Creationism in schools or a Christian trying to push their belief at the Olympics like the surfer who had a mere illustration on his surf board and denied.

Not an ideology, just a custom. I really can't see the problem of who goes in what bathroom as a serious issue. Certainly not a moral issue. If a person, straight or LGBT goes into any bathroom and commits a lewd offence, that is a moral issue--and a crime already.

 

[Dan1988]

I am interested in this as I was speaking to some friends the other day about how especially in the media, Hollywood, Music and entertainment there seems to be this pagan or even Satanic ritualistism going on. Things like wearing these head dresses with goat horns and other pagan symbols. Its always very provocative and sexual as well. Almost a celebration of our animalistic side.

I think I know what is happening. Just like in the days when people defied God they turned to nature, to animals and nature itself like Stone idols. Now that modern society is rejecting God this same belief is coming back. It may seem natural for people to worship nature as god. But primarily when this happens its not really about gods in nature but the self as god, about worship our naturalistic side.

Also in those times people were made gods when theres no transcendent God. As self is god desires and feelings and self experience becomes godlike in status. Therefore comfort, pleasure and all the good feelings are moral and the aweful feeling ones are sin similar to Hedonism

So are we seeing a repeat of the down fall of society like Sodom and Gormorrah or like with how Empires have fallen where morality breaksdown and where the created is worshipped and not the Creator which undermines Gods natural order into entropy and chaos as has happened before except on a much bigger scale.

There was a study done around 10 years ago, to compare the moral standards of Christians in 2014 with those of secular people in 1950's. The study found that the moral standards of the average secular person in the 1950's were higher than those of average Christians in 2014.

Every indication is showing that todays society continues to sink deeper and deeper into depravity, if we continue on this trajectory for much longer we will reach the same level as Sodom and Gamora. Jesus described the generation that see's His return to be as Sodom and Gamora.

While it is sad to see society becoming more and more like Sodom and Gamora, the good thing is it means that our Lord is about to return. So those of us who long for His return, it's a good sign but for those who don't know Him as Lord and savior it's the worst thing that can happen.

The verses below confirm that God gives unbelievers over to a debased mind, so they do those things they don't really want to do, but they do them because they are enslaved by their sinful nature.

Romans 1:26 -32
26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature: 27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.
28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a debased mind, to do those things which are not fitting; 29 being filled with all unrighteousness, sexual immorality, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, evil-mindedness; they are whisperers,

30 backbiters, haters of God, violent, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, 31 undiscerning, untrustworthy, unloving, unforgiving, unmerciful; 32 who, knowing the righteous judgment of God, that those who practice such things are deserving of death, not only do the same but also approve of those who practice them.

 

[stevevw]

That's why gender affirming care is necessary. In those cases it serves as reassurance that the women are not trans.

Actually gender affirming care is the problem. That is why health authorities like the NHS in England and nations like Sweden, Denmark and Norway who are world leaders in trans care are stopping affirming care and replacing it with a theraputic approach.

This came as a result of studies and reports that showed people who were experiencing gender incongruence but not trans were being wrongly diagnosed.

UK Government Web Archive

This Page is [ARCHIVED CONTENT] and shows what the site page https://cass.independent-review.uk/home/publications/final-report/ looked like on 10 Mar 2025 at 14:36:33

cass.independent-review.uk

Denmark Joins the List of Countries That Have Sharply Restricted Youth Gender Transitions

A major medical journal Ugeskrift for Læger, the Journal of the Danish Medical Association, confirmed that there has been a marked shift in the country’s approach to caring for youth with gender dysphoria. Most youth referred to the centralized gender clinic no longer get a prescription for...

segm.org

Of course, an Elvis impersonator who thought he actually was Elvis has a clinical condition. A trans woman who thought she was a real biological woman, just with the wrong organs is suffering from a clinical condition called sexual dysphoria.

This I think is the crux of the matter. Those who feel and believe they are trans are basically suffering a clinical disorder. But trans ideology that is pushed in schools and insitutions states that a trans women is to be regarded as a real women. That means they should have a right to be and do everything a biological women can do.

Its the conflating of a psychological disorder as just being a normal variant of human sex and gender and the idea that there is no innate or binary sex. Its ideologically motivated and not based on objective reality. When we defy reality it causes conflicts.

Other than that, trans women are well aware that they are biological males and trans men are well aware that they are biological females. Their close associates (and, in cases I am personally acquainted with, their families) will know as well.

I don't think that is the case for many. Or what the actual ideology says about what trans means. If for example the idea and even policy that a male with his genitalia still in place can enter into womens spaces, compete against women or even identify as a women which entitles them to all womens rights. If this idea is believed then its more or less saying physical attributes and gentitalia are irrelevant, they don't matter.

The idea is like with sex assigned at birth is that the true reality of being a women is in the head, the feelings and beliefs about self and that overides physical sex even to the point that whats in the head allows a male to trump womens unique physical and objective reality in the world. Which I would have thought was a breach of womens rights anyway.

But like I said when we deny reality it causes conflicts. One groups reality seems to be upheld over another much larger groups reality. Which has been a reality for millenia.

In the recent Olympic boxing case, both fighters were biological females.

Actually as far as I know the boxer was tested by the boxing federation and found to have had XY chromosomes. All this talk about sexual different disorders is misleading.

The idea that there is some sort of spectrum for sex is false. There are only two gametes male and female. You cannot be born with both. These dictate hormones and doesn't change the fact that for XY males its testosterone which leads to an advantage over women.

But what I find strange is that ideologues will make all these claims while denying what actually happens in reality before their eyes. Which was basically a male with clear advantages from male hormones in size and power beating up a women. Now beating women in the name of Woke its celebrated which is in insight into the incoherency of trans ideology.

Not an ideology, just a custom. I really can't see the problem of who goes in what bathroom as a serious issue.

Um do you really understand what your saying. There are many good reasons why we have seperated males and females. How about safety, what about privacy. What about respecting the women who the trans ideology want to impose their experimental ideology on.

I mean Woke trans ideology is all about respecting the beliefs and feelings of identity groups. So what about listening and respecting women, the unique sex and identity of women. I think that one alone is enough. To impose trans ideology on women is doing exactly what trans ideologues protest being done to them.

Certainly not a moral issue. If a person, straight or LGBT goes into any bathroom and commits a lewd offence, that is a moral issue--and a crime already.

It may be that just the fact a male can enter a female space is itself a moral issue. Especially where kids are involved. It may be that teaching young kids trans ideology in schools is a moral issue in itself.

 

[stevevw]

There was a study done around 10 years ago, to compare the moral standards of Christians in 2014 with those of secular people in 1950's. The study found that the moral standards of the average secular person in the 1950's were higher than those of average Christians in 2014.

Every indication is showing that todays society continues to sink deeper and deeper into depravity, if we continue on this trajectory for much longer we will reach the same level as Sodom and Gamora. Jesus described the generation that see's His return to be as Sodom and Gamora.

While it is sad to see society becoming more and more like Sodom and Gamora, the good thing is it means that our Lord is about to return. So those of us who long for His return, it's a good sign but for those who don't know Him as Lord and savior it's the worst thing that can happen.

The verses below confirm that God gives unbelievers over to a debased mind, so they do those things they don't really want to do, but they do them because they are enslaved by their sinful nature.

Romans 1:26 -32
26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature: 27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.
28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a debased mind, to do those things which are not fitting; 29 being filled with all unrighteousness, sexual immorality, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, evil-mindedness; they are whisperers,

30 backbiters, haters of God, violent, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, 31 undiscerning, untrustworthy, unloving, unforgiving, unmerciful; 32 who, knowing the righteous judgment of God, that those who practice such things are deserving of death, not only do the same but also approve of those who practice them.

So we are well on the road then.

 

[Dan1988]

So we are well on the road then.

Nobody knows when Christ will return, but He did say that the world would be as it was in the days of Noah.

Matt 24:36 “But concerning that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father only. 37 For as were the days of Noah, so will be the coming of the Son of Man.
38 For as in those days before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day when Noah entered the ark, 39 and they were unaware until the flood came and swept them all away, so will be the coming of the Son of Man.

Christ also said that He would return like a thief in the night, so nobody will be expecting Him and it will be a huge shock to everyone. He's coming back to judge the whole world, so we are told to be ready at all times. We don't want to be caught unprepared.

 

[BCP1928]

Actually gender affirming care is the problem. That is why health authorities like the NHS in England and nations like Sweden, Denmark and Norway who are world leaders in trans care are stopping affirming care and replacing it with a theraputic approach.

Just another form of gender affirming care. They may have hit on a better approach, but it's still gender affirming care, which whether in the US or Europe, always begins with therapeutic counselling. You seem to be under the impression that "gender affirming care" amounts to nothing but persuading people to have irreversible hormone treatments and/or surgery. In fact many trans people wind up having neither, certainly not until they are adults, which procedures are clinically recommended for actual cases of gender dysphoria and for minors in only the most serious and intractable cases.

This came as a result of studies and reports that showed people who were experiencing gender incongruence but not trans were being wrongly diagnosed.

UK Government Web Archive

This Page is [ARCHIVED CONTENT] and shows what the site page https://cass.independent-review.uk/home/publications/final-report/ looked like on 10 Mar 2025 at 14:36:33

cass.independent-review.uk

Denmark Joins the List of Countries That Have Sharply Restricted Youth Gender Transitions

A major medical journal Ugeskrift for Læger, the Journal of the Danish Medical Association, confirmed that there has been a marked shift in the country’s approach to caring for youth with gender dysphoria. Most youth referred to the centralized gender clinic no longer get a prescription for...

segm.org

This I think is the crux of the matter. Those who feel and believe they are trans are basically suffering a clinical disorder.

Only if they actually are suffering from gender dysphoria. That distinction is made clear in the links you provided.

But trans ideology that is pushed in schools and insitutions states that a trans women is to be regarded as a real women.

That's a lie, and you know it. They are only to be regarded as trans women. They don't require you to believe that they have female reproductive organs.

That means they should have a right to be and do everything a biological women can do.

Only the things they can do in public.

Its the conflating of a psychological disorder

Known as gender dysphoria

as just being a normal variant of human sex and gender

Known as gender incongruence, or in popular usage as "trans."

and the idea that there is no innate or binary sex. Its ideologically motivated and not based on objective reality. When we defy reality it causes conflicts.

You are the one who seems to be working very hard at conflating them. Most of us are able to make the distinction.

I don't think that is the case for many. Or what the actual ideology says about what trans means. If for example the idea and even policy that a male with his genitalia still in place can enter into womens spaces, compete against women or even identify as a women which entitles them to all womens rights. If this idea is believed then its more or less saying physical attributes and gentitalia are irrelevant, they don't matter.

In most situations it does not matter. Unless you are planning to have sex with a person, their genitals are none of your business.

The idea is like with sex assigned at birth is that the true reality of being a women is in the head, the feelings and beliefs about self and that overides physical sex even to the point that whats in the head allows a male to trump womens unique physical and objective reality in the world. Which I would have thought was a breach of womens rights anyway.

But like I said when we deny reality it causes conflicts. One groups reality seems to be upheld over another much larger groups reality. Which has been a reality for millenia.

Actually as far as I know the boxer was tested by the boxing federation and found to have had XY chromosomes. All this talk about sexual different disorders is misleading.

The idea that there is some sort of spectrum for sex is false. There are only two gametes male and female. You cannot be born with both. These dictate hormones and doesn't change the fact that for XY males its testosterone which leads to an advantage over women.

Suddenly their reproductive organs don't count?

But what I find strange is that ideologues will make all these claims while denying what actually happens in reality before their eyes. Which was basically a male with clear advantages from male hormones in size and power beating up a women. Now beating women in the name of Woke its celebrated which is in insight into the incoherency of trans ideology.

Um do you really understand what your saying. There are many good reasons why we have seperated males and females. How about safety, what about privacy. What about respecting the women who the trans ideology want to impose their experimental ideology on.

I mean Woke trans ideology is all about respecting the beliefs and feelings of identity groups. So what about listening and respecting women, the unique sex and identity of women. I think that one alone is enough. To impose trans ideology on women is doing exactly what trans ideologues protest being done to them.

It may be that just the fact a male can enter a female space is itself a moral issue.

What makes a "female space? I was at a state park recently and visited the usual little cabin with two doors down at the end of the parking lot. One door said "Ungendered toilet with urinals." The other said "Ungendered toilet without urinals." Is that how you tell?

Especially where kids are involved. It may be that teaching young kids trans ideology in schools is a moral issue in itself.

Teaching children the disgusting misinformation you are preaching here about trans people and their "agenda" would certainly be a moral issue.

 

[stevevw]

Maybe you should go back and address the example I gave:

"Back in San Francisco, many years ago, there was a man who lost all his money in a risky business venture. It affected the balance of his mind, and he eventually declared himself to be Emperor of the United States. Somebody gave him a second-hand fancy uniform and he lived the rest of his life as the Emperor. He was popular and well-liked in that role, issuing uplifting proclamations and occasional imperial bonds for small amounts of money. In other words, his delusion was harmless and everybody went along with it."

What would you have done about it if you lived in San Francisco then? What would your response to this man have been?

I can tell you what my response would have been. I would have been nice to the old guy, called him "your majesty" and probably shouted him a beer once in a while. You insist that I would have to change my perception of objective reality to do that, but I don't see how.

Thats because people know that he is really not an Emperor of the US. But your example breaks down for a number of reasons. First I am not sure that this guy truely believes he is the Emperor himself. If he does then he has a psychological disorder that will effect him in certain ways. May even be harmful to others.

If he doesn't believe he is really the Emperor then yeah its fun and we can go along. But then if its a delusion going along is actually unhealthy and this fact applies to all psychological disorders.

You also wrongly compare this to gender identity. The Emporer doesn't expect people to actually go along with his decrees. If he was truely Emperor and declared say people give him taxes or that he be able to use their homes as he rules then it begins to negatively affect others then people wont and od not have to go along. So as long as its not harming others thats OK.

So for trans if they kept their beliefs about themselves to themselves and those who voluntarily go along then thats OK. But its when they want to apply their beliefs about themselves on others that don't choose to agree or believe the same that it becomes the problem. For example when someone disagrees that a man can become a women they are attacked as being transphobic. Or when a trans wants to enter biological womens spaces or sports.

Thats when it crosses the line. It would be like the Emperor expecting people to actually give up their beliefs or rights to certain things as part of going along. Completely different to your scenario.

Another difference is that there is no ideology around Emperor ideology as a actual phenomena happening society wide and being implimented in laws, policies and norms. The idea that a man can really be a women or that humans can be reconstructed into the opposite sex is an ideological belief about human nature and how we should order ourselves. Ideas like sex assigned at birth and a trans women is a real women and should be affirmed are all part of the ideology.

So asking to go along and affirm this idea is actually cultivating and affirming it into society. Its reaffirming its reality over and over again thus actually promoting a delsuion for many. So its not a fun and harmless thing but represents an entire ideological way of thinking about human nature and how we order society.

We don't get Emperor ideology being pushed in schools, and institutions such as health or through laws, policies and norms which will actually affect people if they choose not to go along because they have different beliefs. Then its no longer harmless and a bit of fun and people will then not want to go along. As is happening now. Simply declare a man is not a real women and all hell breaks loose. So lets not pretend that its just fun and games.

Thats actually a denial of rights in itself that people are forced or suffer negative consequences for disagreeing and not going along. Unlike the Emperor example.

But this can be linked back to the OP as far as the difference in ideological beliefs about human nature, nature itself and how we should order society. Since God has been taken out of the public square these new ideologies which are really about morality but its now called Woke are flooding in. This is all part and parcel of how secular society is creating itself in its own image and not Gods.

But not just Gods order. When you reject Gods order you also reject reality. The long held truths we came to know like being made in Gods image, the uniqueness and sovereignty of the individual rather than identity, the value of life, morality, the Rule of Law, Enlightened thinking such as rationality, logic, empiricle sciences, and lived reality all go out the door.

Or rather the door is left open for anything and everything in a Postmodernist relativist society. There is no truth or objective reality because everything is self referential and feelings narratives which feeds perfectly into identity being the new measure of reality and morality.

 

[BCP1928]

Thats because people know that he is really not an Emperor of the US. But your example breaks down for a number of reasons. First I am not sure that this guy truely believes he is the Emperor himself. If he does then he has a psychological disorder that will effect him in certain ways. May even be harmful to others.

If he doesn't believe he is really the Emperor then yeah its fun and we can go along. But then if its a delusion going along is actually unhealthy and this fact applies to all psychological disorders.

You also wrongly compare this to gender identity. The Emporer doesn't expect people to actually go along with his decrees. If he was truely Emperor and declared say people give him taxes or that he be able to use their homes as he rules then it begins to negatively affect others then people wont and od not have to go along. So as long as its not harming others thats OK.

So for trans if they kept their beliefs about themselves to themselves and those who voluntarily go along then thats OK. But its when they want to apply their beliefs about themselves on others that don't choose to agree or believe the same that it becomes the problem. For example when someone disagrees that a man can become a women they are attacked as being transphobic. Or when a trans wants to enter biological womens spaces or sports.

Thats when it crosses the line. It would be like the Emperor expecting people to actually give up their beliefs or rights to certain things as part of going along. Completely different to your scenario.

Another difference is that there is no ideology around Emperor ideology as a actual phenomena happening society wide and being implimented in laws, policies and norms. The idea that a man can really be a women or that humans can be reconstructed into the opposite sex is an ideological belief about human nature and how we should order ourselves. Ideas like sex assigned at birth and a trans women is a real women and should be affirmed are all part of the ideology.

So asking to go along and affirm this idea is actually cultivating and affirming it into society. Its reaffirming its reality over and over again thus actually promoting a delsuion for many. So its not a fun and harmless thing but represents an entire ideological way of thinking about human nature and how we order society.

We don't get Emperor ideology being pushed in schools, and institutions such as health or through laws, policies and norms which will actually affect people if they choose not to go along because they have different beliefs. Then its no longer harmless and a bit of fun and people will then not want to go along. As is happening now. Simply declare a man is not a real women and all hell breaks loose. So lets not pretend that its just fun and games.

Thats actually a denial of rights in itself that people are forced or suffer negative consequences for disagreeing and not going along. Unlike the Emperor example.

But this can be linked back to the OP as far as the difference in ideological beliefs about human nature, nature itself and how we should order society. Since God has been taken out of the public square these new ideologies which are really about morality but its now called Woke are flooding in. This is all part and parcel of how secular society is creating itself in its own image and not Gods.

But not just Gods order. When you reject Gods order you also reject reality. The long held truths we came to know like being made in Gods image, the uniqueness and sovereignty of the individual rather than identity, the value of life, morality, the Rule of Law, Enlightened thinking such as rationality, logic, empiricle sciences, and lived reality all go out the door.

Or rather the door is left open for anything and everything in a Postmodernist relativist society. There is no truth or objective reality because everything is self referential and feelings narratives which feeds perfectly into identity being the new measure of reality and morality.

All this happens because you are supposed to treat a trans man as a man in public, or a trans woman as a woman? You're not even required to believe that that a trans man has male reproductive organs, or a trans woman female reproductive organs. Yet having to do that signals the end of civilization?

 

[stevevw]

All this happens because you are supposed to treat a trans man as a man in public, or a trans woman as a woman? You're not even required to believe that that a trans man has male reproductive organs, or a trans woman female reproductive organs. Yet having to do that signals the end of civilization?

Your not understanding what the ideology represents. Its not a case of not knowing that there is a physical reality to our bodies. Its that we uphold subjective identity over physical and lived reality. Thats the ideology, that identity is more real that all else including objective reality.

Just holding that ideological thinking alone, that the subjective beliefs and feelings are more real than objective reality or reality is relative to the identity is the problem. That sort of thinking use to be known as unreality, irrational but now its celebrated.

If someone is willing to compromise and deny objective reality on bodily reality then they are willing to deny reality in other ways and thats exactly what we are seeing in how theres a growing list of irrational identities especially on line as being real entities. About being a sane and rational way to see yourself in the world and that this subjective belief represents actual reality.

That also used to be call a psychosis and disordered thinking and cognitive dissonance. But now according to Woke science these are not delusions but healthy and normal ways to be human.

See what your forgetting is when we take the ideology to its logical conclusion its asking for everyone to go along with a trans women being a real women in every sense. The idea is the physical ouuter shell is just a social construction. It can be remodelled, recreated into the opposite sex or something else.

So the physical geneitals are minor and what is real is the inner subjective self. That is why trans ideologues say a heterosexual biological male or lesbian biological women must be willing to have a relationship or sex with a transwomen. Because the genitals are not important. Anyone who worries about the physical genitals is genital and trans phobic.

That is why even science has been ideologically influenced by ideas like sex assigned at birth. In otherwords sex is just a social construction and its the subjective gender identity that is the only real indication of a man or women or something in between or neither.

So its the fundemental ideology that there is no innate sex, objective sex, its now the subjective part while subjective identityhas become the objective part. Only around 10 or 15 years ago science said sex is a biological and objective reality and gender identity was a social construction. Now that has been completely flipped. Which shows you the extent to which the ideology has infiltrated peoples thinking.

But if you stand back and apply rationaility and objectivity for which science was built on we can see in how this ideology plays out in real life that its completely incoherent and unscientific. When biological males compete against females they completely dominate them and thus denying the reality of biological women as a unique and objectively real human. There is no rational basis and the reports I linked exposed this.

So in that sense as has been the case in the past such as with Eugenics, religious fundementalism, diet contagions society as a whole at least in the ideology behind many policies and norms being pushed in schools and health and within governing bodies like the UN and the Olympic committee, society as a whole has been deluded as many people go along.

 

[BCP1928]

Your not understanding what the ideology represents. Its not a case of not knowing that there is a physical reality to our bodies. Its that we uphold subjective identity over physical and lived reality. Thats the ideology, that identity is more real that all else including objective reality.

I still don't get it. Here, let's say, we have a biological woman who wishes, for whatever reason, to function in society as a man. She adopts the superficial appearance of a man--men's clothing, hairstyle, etc. and would like it if you would respond to her in social contexts (school or workplace, for the most part) as if she was a man. She knows she hasn't go male reproductive organs and thinks it likely you do too but doesn't care because she is not requiring you to believe she does.

That is the physical and lived reality. You're the one with the ideology.

Just holding that ideological thinking alone, that the subjective beliefs and feelings are more real than objective reality or reality is relative to the identity is the problem. That sort of thinking use to be known as unreality, irrational but now its celebrated.

How are her feelings more real than objective reality? They can't change her biology.

See what your forgetting is when we take the ideology to its logical conclusion its asking for everyone to go along with a trans women being a real women in every sense.

That is a lie and you know it. After all, you have repeated it often enough and been told often enough why it is false. Let me make my point clear, since we will not be discussing this any further. A lie is an intentional falsehood, a bearing of false witness often told to hide something that the liar thinks discreditable or to discredit someone else. I don't know exactly what it is you really have against trans or why you are lying about it and don't really care to try any more to find out. because I can no longer trust anything you have to say

 

[stevevw]

I still don't get it. Here, let's say, we have a biological woman who wishes, for whatever reason, to function in society as a man. She adopts the superficial appearance of a man--men's clothing, hairstyle, etc. and would like it if you would respond to her in social contexts (school or workplace, for the most part) as if she was a man. She knows she hasn't go male reproductive organs and thinks it likely you do too but doesn't care because she is not requiring you to believe she does.

That is the physical and lived reality. You're the one with the ideology.

But its not that simple and everyone knows that. This is what the ideology does, it creates false representations to confuse and fool people. Your using one example to represent the ideology when its much more than that.

First you say the women identifying as a man "would like others to go along" as though its a take it or leave it proposition. Which would be ok if that was the case. But this is not what happens in reality. People are not given an option. For some if you don't go along, misgenered them, disagree that they are actually a male. They are attacked, some lose their jobs and often financially and emotionally destroyed.

I just explained to you that the Trans ideologues state that a Trans person should be treated like the sex their identify as. Not maybe, or you have a choice. But should be and if not you are being transphobic by not affirming them. This is a core principle of Trans ideology, that the real measure of sex is gender identity and not the physical attributes.

So its not that some may not care and be aware that they are not really the opposite sex. But that taken to its logical conclusion there will be some if not many according to the logic of the trans ideology who will want and even demand to be seen as being real women where the physical body is completely irrelevant and made invisible because identity is the new objective reality. Therefore logically they should be affirmed and treated as real women.

How are her feelings more real than objective reality? They can't change her biology.

Actually its when we apply the ideology to objective reality and real life situations. Its not just about comparing the persons own subjective beliefs to themselves within their own little world but when they want to apply that to reality outside themselves onto others.

So the trans persons subjective feelings about self trump the objective reality of say biological women when the trans persons wants to take the feelings about herself and apply it to say competing in womens sports or entering womens private spaces. Thats when the stark reality that they are not really women in reality conflicts.

If you take the logic of the ideology to its logical end then it makes sense that a person who truely believes and feels they are the opposite sex would then want to do everything the opposite sex does. Otherwise they are being denied their womenhood or manhood. Being on the outer which people would say is descriminatory and unfair.

So its not that all trans want to push their subjective reality onto the objective world and others but that the ideologies own logic states that if the situation demands it, if the trans person wants it their subjective feelings should trump biological womens reality by allowing them to live a full life as a women in every way. Which follows that biological women should accept a transwomen in their spaces. Otherwise she is not reaslly being a women and will feel excluded.

That is a lie and you know it. After all, you have repeated it often enough and been told often enough why it is false. Let me make my point clear, since we will not be discussing this any further. A lie is an intentional falsehood, a bearing of false witness often told to hide something that the liar thinks discreditable or to discredit someone else. I don't know exactly what it is you really have against trans or why you are lying about it and don't really care to try any more to find out. because I can no longer trust anything you have to say

It can't be a lie because I just explained to you above the facts and logic of the ideology itself. Its self evident. If they are not asking everyone to go along then why are trans activist pushing for trans ideology to be included in education and health.

Doesn't the law say that people cannot descriminate against others based on gender identity. So if a man identifies as a women and someone doesn't affirm that identity be perhaps denying they are really a women. Or denying that they be able to say enter a womens space or sports. Isn't that descrimination.

The ideologies own logic demands that people affirm trans identities as the real identity. If this is the case wouldn't denying those identities as real be like denying a black person is black. Which would be regarded as derscrimination and denying a persons race. You tell me. I am only going by the logic or the ideology.