Is loving God a work?

[Jo555]

It appears wrong (sinful?) to argue the doctrinal aspects either way as this is not edifying nor helping anyone. Not at all unusual on the internet, of course.... but a little sometimes or often like quicksand to lure gullible into some kind of trap (religious trouble) ?

Aaron, I share some of your sentiments, but somewhat differently. It is not a sin to share points of contention as long as we are doing it from the right heart.

Remember the heart of the matter is the matter of the heart.

What I do believe can often come of these things is that it can start well intended, but then the carnal nature can find its way in if someone offends us, etc. Then we are just making a bunch of annoying noise.

We also can't do the Spirit's work in another's life. We can share the seed He has given us and let his Spirit use it as He sees fit. So, we have to know when to let things go, all as we sense his Spirit leading us.

If we are no longer operating in love for God and others as ourselves, we are off.

 

[Jo555]

If we are no longer operating in love for God and others as ourselves, we are off.

Philippians 2:

2 Therefore if you have any encouragement from being united with Christ, if any comfort from his love, if any common sharing in the Spirit, if any tenderness and compassion, 2 then make my joy complete by being like-minded, having the same love, being one in spirit and of one mind. 3 Do nothing out of selfish ambition or vain conceit. Rather, in humility value others above yourselves, 4 not looking to your own interests but each of you to the interests of the others.

 

[Jo555]

So how do you conclude "There's a lot of error present in this thread" when you don't even want to share your own view on whether love is a work or not?

And i do agree with this statement. And then there is little to no evidence in scripture.

If some are going to say, "Well you are wrong, it is this." And another disagrees, and you want to continue to share your point, hopefully out of love, back it up with scripture if others don't agree. I know at times we are short on time, but if we continue to do that it just comes across as someone offering their beliefs with no substance from scripture to back it up.

 

[Hoping2]

Again, no. No one following Jesus runs red lights, steals from banks, or covets his neighbors wife.
Doing Good is "required" - especially taking care of the widows, orphans, the poor.

No ?
Then he was writing about deeds other than the Law's ?
Which deeds ?

 

[Hoping2]

You do realize that works of the law, and works of the flesh are the same thing, yes?

In one context, yes, I realize that.
But what we are discussing isn't the sinfulness of the unconverted.
Paul's writings say that circumcision, and dietary rules, and sabbath keeping, will not save a man.
Men, however, have taken that edict so far as to eliminate repentance from sin, and baptism in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ for the remission of past sins, and even resisting temptations, as works to be avoided.

No one is saying you shouldn't resist, but if you are operating in your own strength, it is a work of the law and flesh.

Nobody without the Holy Spirt can resist, for very long.
But if one quits resisting, they will be judged unworthy of eternal life, on the last day.
The obedient will be granted salvation, and none other.

You do realize that if you hate your brother, you are a murderer?
You do realize that repentance is a work of the Spirit?

Yes to both, and that is a work that will save us...if we remain faithful until the end.

Have you received the baptism of the Spirit?

I have, thanks be to God.

Again, the works of the law is the works of the flesh. Anything we do to earn salvation is a work of the law and flesh and is condemned to death.

You need to differentiate between God's laws and men's additions to them.
Ceasing from murder, covetousness, theft, and lies, etc. will save men.
Circumcision, feast keeping, dietary rules, etc. will not.

But I said I wouldn't be back here. As time permits and I feel ok with it, I'll try and answer your questions and points. I, at least, feel I can understand them better. I just see these things get very unprofitable with people pulling scriptures here and there and then it can get into it being more about persuading you to see things my way for the wrong reasons, and that is going no where with God and his Spirit doesn't flow that way, so as time permits and I feel ok, I'll try and address your points and questions.

Is repentance from sin a work that does not save, and we must avoid ?
Is water baptism in the name of Jesus Christ a work that doesn't save, and we should avoid ?
Is obedience to God a work that we must avoid at all costs ?

 

[Jo555]

In one context, yes, I realize that.
But what we are discussing isn't the sinfulness of the unconverted.
Paul's writings say that circumcision, and dietary rules, and sabbath keeping, will not save a man.
Men, however, have taken that edict so far as to eliminate repentance from sin, and baptism in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ for the remission of past sins, and even resisting temptations, as works to be avoided.

Nobody without the Holy Spirt can resist, for very long.
But if one quits resisting, they will be judged unworthy of eternal life, on the last day.
The obedient will be granted salvation, and none other.

Yes to both, and that is a work that will save us...if we remain faithful until the end.

I have, thanks be to God.

You need to differentiate between God's laws and men's additions to them.
Ceasing from murder, covetousness, theft, and lies, etc. will save men.
Circumcision, feast keeping, dietary rules, etc. will not.

Is repentance from sin a work that does not save, and we must avoid ?
Is water baptism in the name of Jesus Christ a work that doesn't save, and we should avoid ?
Is obedience to God a work that we must avoid at all costs ?

Hope (love the name). I am Joanne (Jo for short) name meaning "God is gracious", and truly has been in my life, as I'm sure in yours too.

It's not that many of us are against works, but we are against works to earn salvation.

That is a free gift from God entered in through Christ, by grace, through faith, and as a result, good fruit and works follow. Many scriptures already offered in this thread that strongly support that.

 

[Hoping2]

Hope (love the name). I am Joanne (Jo for short) name meaning "God is gracious", and truly has been in my life, as I'm sure in yours too.

It's not that many of us are against works, but we are against works to earn salvation.

That is a free gift from God entered in through Christ, by grace, through faith, and as a result, good fruit and works follow. Many scriptures already offered in this thread that strongly support that.

Which works are you against ?
Repentance ?
Baptism ?
Feast keeping ?
Circumcision ?
Obedience ?

 

[RDKirk]

Which works are you against ?
Repentance ?
Baptism ?
Feast keeping ?
Circumcision ?
Obedience ?

None of those actions confers salvation in themselves.

 

[Jo555]

Which works are you against ?
Repentance ?
Baptism ?
Feast keeping ?
Circumcision ?
Obedience ?

Not against any. I'm against using works to earn salvation when it is freely given to us in Christ.

 

[Jo555]

Not against any. I'm against using works to earn salvation when it is freely given to us in Christ.

Ephesians 2:
8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast. 10 For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

What do you think this means?

I've got to call it a night, but will check in tomorrow.

 

[Hoping2]

None of those actions confers salvation in themselves.

Of course not, but without even one of them, there is no salvation.

 

[Hoping2]

Not against any. I'm against using works to earn salvation when it is freely given to us in Christ.

As long as those works are of the Law, I agree with you.
With the exception of the big ten, none of the Law won't save a man.
"Freely given to us in Christ" is a bit of a misnomer, as the things that get us into Christ are themselves things we must do, for salvation.

 

[RDKirk]

Of course not, but without even one of them, there is no salvation

What?

Baptism ?
Feast keeping ?
Circumcision ?

None of those is a necessity for salvation. And the other two fall into Paul's Ephesians category of post-salvation "good works." Even Baptism would fall into the category of a post-salvation good work.

Feast keeping and circumcision are explicitly noted as unnecessary for salvation.

 

[Jo555]

Not against any. I'm against using works to earn salvation when it is freely given to us in Christ.

Ephesians 2:
8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast. 10 For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

What do you think this means?

I've got to call it a night, but will check in tomorrow

As long as those works are of the Law, I agree with you.
With the exception of the big ten, none of the Law won't save a man.
"Freely given to us in Christ" is a bit of a misnomer, as the things that get us into Christ are themselves things we must do, for salvation.

I've been chatting with you for some time now Hope and it sounds like you are counting on works to be saved. Scripture clearly says if that is the case, we've fallen from grace and have been cut off from Christ.

You either agree with scripture or you don't. If you feel there is an interpretation issue, you should raise that issue and back it up with scripture.

Ephesians 2:
8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast. 10 For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

I'll ask the question again. What do you believe these scriptures mean?

Actually, if your reply was your answer, then you have misinterpreted scripture.

A gift is not something you earn. It is freely given, and it clearly states that it is not of ourselves, so that none will boast.

Romans 3:
24 and all are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.

You seem to want to distinguished between works, and all works that one does to try and gain salvation, all are condemned tor our righteousness is as filthy rags to God.

And we are making a mockery, whether intentional or not, of the incredible sacrifice Jesus went through to free us from our sinful nature because we are basically saying he went through such a sacrifice for nothing; that we can do it on our own.

So it's not about this work or that, it is about whether you are doing it to earn salvation because we can't.

Hope that helps some.

 

[Jo555]

Ephesians 2:
8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast. 10 For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

What do you think this means?

I've got to call it a night, but will check in tomorrow

I've been chatting with you for some time now Hope and it sounds like you are counting on works to be saved. Scripture clearly says if that is the case, we've fallen from grace and have been cut off from Christ.

You either agree with scripture or you don't. If you feel there is an interpretation issue, you should raise that issue and back it up with scripture.

Ephesians 2:
8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast. 10 For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

I'll ask the question again. What do you believe these scriptures mean?

Actually, if your reply was your answer, then you have misinterpreted scripture.

A gift is not something you earn. It is freely given, and it clearly states that it is not of ourselves, so that none will boast.

Romans 3:
24 and all are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.


So it's not about this work or that, it is about whether you are doing it to earn salvation because we can't.

Hope that helps some.

And once a child of God, through Christ, it isn't some back and forth thing that if you sin you lose your salvation, and if you don't you sin you have salvation. We have faith and love that comes from Him poured out into our spirits, yet we are also being perfected in his faith and love.

Hebrews 12:
12 Therefore, since we are surrounded by such a great cloud of witnesses, let us throw off everything that hinders and the sin that so easily entangles. And let us run with perseverance the race marked out for us, 2 fixing our eyes on Jesus, the pioneer and perfecter of faith. For the joy set before him he endured the cross, scorning its shame, and sat down at the right hand of the throne of God.

1 John 4:
God is love. Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in them. 17 This is how love is made complete among us so that we will have confidence on the day of judgment: In this world we are like Jesus. 18 There is no fear in love. But perfect love drives out fear, because fear has to do with punishment. The one who fears is not made perfect in love.

And no one should be advocating for sin because salvation is a free gift to us from God. It wasn't free to Him. Jesus paid a dear price for our debt, and we also ridicule his sacrifice by continuing to practice sin. We do slip at times as we are being perfected in faith and love, but his blood has us covered while we are perfected in Him.

And let us not think that sin is just some ill-feelings we have for another, or some immoral act we committed.

Everything done apart from faith is sin.

Romans 14:
23 But whoever has doubts is condemned if they eat, because their eating is not from faith; and everything that does not come from faith is sin.

The awesomeness and beauty of God is too high. Unreachable of our own. We must enter in through Christ.

 

[Jo555]

And once a child of God, through Christ, it isn't some back and forth thing that if you sin you lose your salvation, and if you don't you sin you have salvation. We have faith and love that comes from Him poured out into our spirits, yet we are also being perfected in his faith and love.

Hebrews 12:
12 Therefore, since we are surrounded by such a great cloud of witnesses, let us throw off everything that hinders and the sin that so easily entangles. And let us run with perseverance the race marked out for us, 2 fixing our eyes on Jesus, the pioneer and perfecter of faith. For the joy set before him he endured the cross, scorning its shame, and sat down at the right hand of the throne of God.

1 John 4:
God is love. Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in them. 17 This is how love is made complete among us so that we will have confidence on the day of judgment: In this world we are like Jesus. 18 There is no fear in love. But perfect love drives out fear, because fear has to do with punishment. The one who fears is not made perfect in love.

And no one should be advocating for sin because salvation is a free gift to us from God. It wasn't free to Him. Jesus paid a dear price for our debt, and we also ridicule his sacrifice by continuing to practice sin. We do slip at times as we are being perfected in faith and love, but his blood has us covered while we are perfected in Him.

And let us not think that sin is just some ill-feelings we have for another, or some immoral act we committed.

Everything done apart from faith is sin.

Romans 14:
23 But whoever has doubts is condemned if they eat, because their eating is not from faith; and everything that does not come from faith is sin.

The awesomeness and beauty of God is too high. Unreachable of our own. We must enter in through Christ.

Forgot to mention that once in Christ we are being perfected in faith and love and if we don't walk with Christ, with his Spirit, we will encounter discipline for the perfecting of our faith. It's not a loss of salvation, but discipline so that our lives can bear good fruit and good works for his glory and the joys that come with that in our lives.

So it's not that we go back and forth to being saved or not saved for his blood has us covered, but we will encounter discipline if we ignore the call of his Spirit to walk in love and such by remaining in Christ.

 

[Jo555]

Aaron, I share some of your sentiments, but somewhat differently. It is not a sin to share points of contention as long as we are doing it from the right heart.

Remember the heart of the matter is the matter of the heart.

What I do believe can often come of these things is that it can start well intended, but then the carnal nature can find its way in if someone offends us, etc. Then we are just making a bunch of annoying noise.

We also can't do the Spirit's work in another's life. We can share the seed He has given us and let his Spirit use it as He sees fit. So, we have to know when to let things go, all as we sense his Spirit leading us.

If we are no longer operating in love for God and others as ourselves, we are off.

Sorry Aaron. One of my pet peeves is when we say it is ok or not ok in regards to direction in another's life. Yes, it starts with being well-intended, but doesn't mean we are walking with Him in

 

[Jo555]

Hit post too soon.

To finish, doesn't mean we are perfectly in step with his Spirit, but that is the start and we are in position to receive from Him, and give from Him.

But yes, not really fair for anyone to come in and say we are wrong if they are not willing to engage in why they feel that way.

 

[Hoping2]

What?
Baptism ?
Feast keeping ?
Circumcision ?

Opps. Should have separated the necessary from the unnecessary there.

None of those is a necessity for salvation. And the other two fall into Paul's Ephesians category of post-salvation "good works." Even Baptism would fall into the category of a post-salvation good work.

Without water baptism in the name of Jesus Christ, one still carries one's past sins.
Jesus shed His blood to wash them away, and the application of that atoning, sanctifying blood, occurs at our "immersion" into Him; and His death, burial, and resurrection. (Acts 22:16)
Repentance from sin allows us to be free from committing any more sins.
Obedience is the product of repentance and rebirth from God's seed.
No sinner will be granted eternal life.

Feast keeping and circumcision are explicitly noted as unnecessary for salvation.

Yep: works of the Law profit nobody.
Thanks be to God for providing the better way !
It is written..."For the law made nothing perfect, but the bringing in of a better hope did; by the which we draw nigh unto God." (Heb 7:19)

 

[RDKirk]

Without water baptism in the name of Jesus Christ, one still carries one's past sins.
Jesus shed His blood to wash them away, and the application of that atoning, sanctifying blood, occurs at our "immersion" into Him; and His death, burial, and resurrection. (Acts 22:16)
Repentance from sin allows us to be free from committing any more sins.
Obedience is the product of repentance and rebirth from God's seed.
No sinner will be granted eternal life.

Cornelius was explicitly filled with the Holy Spirit before being baptized.