In what cases can a traditional church be banned in democratic states? The Ukrainian Orthodox Church may be banned.

Nick1000 · Aug 25, 2024

ValeriyK2022 said:
Many members of the UOC fought and are fighting, defending Ukraine from Russian aggression, and at the same time, in the rear, their churches are being taken away by those who have never been to war. They are fighting in the rear against the believers of the UOC.

You were asking what democracies would do. Unfortunately, they/we make boneheaded, stupid, ugly mistakes too, so there are lessons to be gleaned from that.

In WW2 the United States moved 120,000 Japanese civilians living in the U.S. to "relocation camps" based on an assumption that they could theoretically be loyal to our enemy or a threat due to their affiliation/family connection to Japan. In fact almost (probably all) were loyal Americans and many had family members serving in the American military. It is one of the most gut-wrenching ugly chapters in American history, so Ukrainians should think long and hard about whether there are any lessons there for them in regard to demonizing "certain" people who may be loyal citizens.

In the U.S. the Supreme Court eventually overturned the power of the government to send the Japanese (regardless of whether citizen or non-citizen) to camps. The wheels of justice turned slowly and it did not undo the ugliness but at least the Supreme Court decision put an end to it and confirmed that it was wrong. Avoid doing that if you can. We made that mistake for you and it will haunt you for a century if you do.

ValeriyK2022 · Aug 25, 2024

Nick1000 said:
You were asking what democracies would do. Unfortunately, they/we make boneheaded, stupid, ugly mistakes too, so there are lessons to be gleaned from that.

In WW2 the United States moved 120,000 Japanese civilians living in the U.S. to "relocation camps" based on an assumption that they could theoretically be loyal to our enemy or a threat due to their affiliation/family connection to Japan. In fact almost (probably all) were loyal Americans and many had family members serving in the American military. It is one of the most gut-wrenching ugly chapters in American history, so Ukrainians should think long and hard about whether there are any lessons there for them in regard to demonizing "certain" people who may be loyal citizens.

In the U.S. the Supreme Court eventually overturned the power of the government to send the Japanese (regardless of whether citizen or non-citizen) to camps. The wheels of justice turned slowly and it did not undo the ugliness but at least the Supreme Court decision put an end to it and confirmed that it was wrong. Avoid doing that if you can. We made that mistake for you and it will haunt you for a century if you do.

It's terrible that you wrote that innocent people were cruelly punished without any guilt, based on one assumption.

But at least they were foreigners. Our representatives of the UOC are those people, most of whom had ancestors born here. The UOC traces its history back to the 10th century, to Prince Vladimir the Great. My ancestors, for example, lived here since at least the 18th-19th centuries. But I think that if there were records, it would be possible to extend our lineage to the 10th century.

This is a traditional religion for Ukraine, the religion of parents, grandfathers and great-grandfathers (except for the communist period) of the majority of Ukrainians.

And so they reformatted ukrainians brains.

I remember the words of priest Daniil Sysoev, who was killed in Russia in 2009, that ideology is not needed to come to power, but power is seized (by force or deception) to impose a new ideology.

The Bolsheviks were a tiny minority until they seized power. They did not win people's minds with words and persuasion. They did not win the elections to the State Duma. They dispersed the State Duma with machine guns, shot the Tsar, and then reformatted the brains of the entire population so that the majority became communists.

Just 15-20 years ago, about 70 percent of people called themselves members of the UOC...

Nick1000 · Aug 25, 2024

ValeriyK2022 said:
It's terrible that you wrote that innocent people were cruelly punished without any guilt, based on one assumption.

But at least they were foreigners.

In regard to being foreigners: Not really. Two thirds of the ethnic Japanese who were sent to the camps were American born citizens.

Not foreigners by American standards, except amongst unhealthy people who have prejudice may see them as foreigners. I would be willing to trade some Americans for more of the Japanese immigrants.

America is of course a country of immigrants. Yes, the Japanese had only been here for one or two generations but that was true of many/most people on the West Coast of the U.S. as well. Not just the Japanese.

My own family goes back eleven generations here so admittedly I see some citizens as relative newcomers, but, foreigners? - no. The Japanese immigrants are very good citizens and the whole thing was appalling and repugnant.

I don't know. In many ways it is sort of an embarrassing time to be alive- regardless of whether you are Russian, Ukrainian, or American. So much deterioration of values. I can talk about and just did, American standards for religious freedom- and there is much that is good to be said about it. At the same time, we are in a period in the country where "progressives" are all dressing up like little Hamas terrorists and running cities threatening to kill Jews. Embarrassing, ugly, and shameful. Very shameful.

During WW2, the United States was also wall-to-wall with German immigrants too. Why did we not send their families to relocation camps as we did with the Japanese- based on the argument that they could all be loyal to Germany or are spies? Nevermind. The answer is not pretty.

ValeriyK2022 · Aug 25, 2024

Nick1000 said:
In regard to being foreigners: Not really. Two thirds of the ethnic Japanese who were sent to the camps were American born citizens.

Not foreigners by American standards, except amongst unhealthy people who have prejudice may see them as foreigners. I would be willing to trade some Americans for more of the Japanese immigrants.

America is of course a country of immigrants. Yes, the Japanese had only been here for one or two generations but that was true of many/most people on the West Coast of the U.S. as well. Not just the Japanese.

My own family goes back eleven generations here so admittedly I see some citizens as relative newcomers, but, foreigners? - no. The Japanese immigrants are very good citizens and the whole thing was appalling and repugnant.

I don't know. In many ways it is sort of an embarrassing time to be alive- regardless of whether you are Russian, Ukrainian, or American. So much deterioration of values. I can talk about and just did, American standards for religious freedom- and there is much that is good to be said about it. At the same time, we are in a period in the country where "progressives" are all dressing up like little Hamas terrorists and running cities threatening to kill Jews. Embarrassing, ugly, and shameful. Very shameful.

During WW2, the United States was also wall-to-wall with German immigrants too. Why did we not send their families to relocation camps as we did with the Japanese- based on the argument that they could all be loyal to Germany or are spies? Nevermind. The answer is not pretty.

Yes, there is a difference in attitude towards different nations.

Then in the summer of 2022, there was a period when Ukraine was losing 500 people a day at the front (not counting civilians). I decided to see what the BBC was writing about this. The first report was that in Germany a car ran into a crowd of people at a bus stop and killed a person. The second message was about someone shooting a policeman in France. And only in 3rd or 5th place was the message about the war in Ukraine. But this message did not look tragic, but simply like statistics, without emotions, as if that was how it should be. I was very surprised then that the life or death of 1 German or Frenchman excited the British, while the death of 500 Ukrainians hardly bothered them at all.

ValeriyK2022 · Aug 25, 2024

Ukrainian propaganda has been inflating public opinion that we are so important to Europeans, as part of them, that they can't sleep peacefully, knowing that we are suffering. And now I see that this is not true. Yes, they help a little, but they don't worry much even about mass deaths. Kievans once worried so much about September 11, as if their relatives were there. But Americans also look at the mass deaths of Ukrainians more or less indifferently and coldly.

Therefore, the hope is no longer for mercy, but for these all things will be disadvantageous for the Americans.

Maybe only some of the American Orthodox Christians will feel sorry for us.

Nick1000 · Aug 25, 2024

ValeriyK2022 said:
Yes, there is a difference in attitude towards different nations.

This was a revelation for Ukrainians in 2022. At first, Dr. Komarovsky, well-known in Ukraine, was surprised that the West was not worried about the deaths of Ukrainian children from Russian missiles. I don’t remember what he considered necessary, whether to turn off SWIFT and something else for the Russians for bombing rear cities with children, or to provide Ukraine with enough air defense to protect them from Russian missiles. I don’t remember exactly. But I remember how Dr. Komarovsky was very surprised that the lives of Ukrainian children were not valued as highly as those of European children.

Then in the summer of 2022, there was a period when Ukraine was losing 500 people a day at the front (not counting civilians). I decided to see what the BBC was writing about this. The first report was that in Germany a car ran into a crowd of people at a bus stop and killed a person. The second message was about someone shooting a policeman in France. And only in 3rd or 5th place was the message about the war in Ukraine. But this message did not look tragic, but simply like statistics, without emotions, as if that was how it should be. I was very surprised then that the life or death of 1 German or Frenchman excited the British, while the death of 500 Ukrainians hardly bothered them at all.

Yes. and that kind of crazy valuing or non-valuing of lives is rampant in Russia.

The body count from soldiers being sent into the meat grinder is very high. About a thousand Russians a day. Except they are mostly ethnic kids from Siberia and Dagestan. It's not like they are fully human Russians.

One of the things that Putins fears most from this recent Ukrainian invasion of Kursk and Belgorod (with Crimea next in line) is that he cannot counter it without going to another mobilization. - and everyone knows that that will and must include kids from St. Petersburg and Moscow because Russia has run out of other places to recruit from. And that is a very risky move by Putin because that means "real" Russian people are getting called into the war, not just disposable bodies from Siberia and Dagestan and some fighters from Nepal etc who also do not count.

ValeriyK2022 · Aug 25, 2024

Nick1000 said:
Yes. and that kind of crazy valuing or non-valuing of lives is rampant in Russia.

The body count from soldiers being sent into the meat grinder is very high. About a thousand Russians a day. Except they are mostly ethnic kids from Siberia and Dagestan. It's not like they are fully human Russians.

One of the things that Putins fears most from this recent Ukrainian invasion of Kursk and Belgorod (with Crimea next in line) is that he cannot counter it without going to another mobilization. - and everyone knows that that will and must include kids from St. Petersburg and Moscow. And that is a very risky move by Putin because that means "real" real Russian people are getting called into the war, not disposable just disposable bodies from Siberia and Dagestan.

Human life has become less valuable than ever.

Uriah S · Aug 25, 2024

Unfortunately I don’t believe the US et al. cares about Ukraine, only seeing it as a pawn against Russia.

And of course, it's no inconvenience that there's also money to be made in Ukraine.

ValeriyK2022 · Aug 25, 2024

What could motivate Americans to defend real democracy and human rights in Ukraine? What could motivate them to defend the UOC?

rusmeister · Aug 25, 2024

ValeriyK2022 said:
What could motivate Americans to defend real democracy and human rights in Ukraine? What could motivate them to defend the UOC?

to take a line from JRR Tolkien, “They have no need to ride to war; war already marches on their own lands.”
Ordinary Americans have no interest in Ukraine. it is a far away land that they know nothing about, and they now feel beleaguered themselves.

Nick1000 · Aug 25, 2024

ValeriyK2022 said:
What could motivate Americans to defend real democracy and human rights in Ukraine? What could motivate them to defend the UOC?

Despite our many faults, one of the optimistic aspects of being American is a perennial belief that every country seeks to be a Jeffersonian type democracy if only they just got some help. It is also a belief that has gotten us a rather long history of disastrous wars where the country we are allegedly helping has absolutely no interest in any of that. They just want the American dollars and then for us to get out. So unfortunately the Ukrainian war comes along at a time when Americans have finally wised up and are totally burned out and disillusioned with that kind of involvement. We don't have any interest in sorting out whether a country should be Shia or Sunni (as in Iraq) or UOC versus UCU, etc. It is no-win for us. We will be accused of meddling in internal affairs if we get involved. And we will be accused of not caring about democracy and human rights if we don't.

Ukraine is getting a lot of American money, a lot and there will be a lot of pressure on Ukraine to demonstrate that it is in fact establishing a democracy based on its own actions and interests, and that the funds being received are not lost to corruption- even though both Russia and Ukraine have a demonstrated history of corruption. I am just offering up a cautionary message that Ukraine will need to demonstrate all on its own that is has a natural interest in human rights and democracy or things. Americans - probably for one of the first periods in our history- are not interested in trying to talk you into it.

On the plus side, Ukraine has been willing and excelled at fighting and defending itself. We did not see that in Vietnam, Iraq, Afghanistan, etc. We were trying to get them to be interested in democracy and interested in defending themselves. It was disastrous. So you have done yourself a lot of good by being motivated in the military arena and you will have to do the same by being internally motivated in the civilian democracy arena. Not to forget that Americans had to do this themselves as part of our revolution.

We don't know how the American election is going to go but if Trump wins and he wants to dial down the support to Ukraine then he will be using the fact that we are funding a country that does not even support religious freedom as talking point. It is just the reality of the environment we are in. So Ukraine should think that through. Trump is not going to be talking about how he can get Americans to care about democracy in Ukraine. And if Kamala wins she will want to be able to point out how Ukraine is a true democracy so we should be supporting them. Not having religious freedom will not help her to make that point.

ValeriyK2022 · Aug 26, 2024

Nick1000 said:
Despite our many faults, one of the optimistic aspects of being American is a perennial belief that every country seeks to be a Jeffersonian type democracy if only they just got some help. It is also a belief that has gotten us a rather long history of disastrous wars where the country we are allegedly helping has absolutely no interest in any of that. They just want the American dollars and then for us to get out. So unfortunately the Ukrainian war comes along at a time when Americans have finally wised up and are totally burned out and disillusioned with that kind of involvement. We don't have any interest in sorting out whether a country should be Shia or Sunni (as in Iraq) or UOC versus UCU, etc. It is no-win for us. We will be accused of meddling in internal affairs if we get involved. And we will be accused of not caring about democracy and human rights if we don't.

It seems to me that interference in the internal affairs of the country that is helping still happens, only it is done secretly.

Nick1000 said:
Ukraine is getting a lot of American money, a lot and there will be a lot of pressure on Ukraine to demonstrate that it is in fact establishing a democracy based on its own actions and interests, and that the funds being received are not lost to corruption- even though both Russia and Ukraine have a demonstrated history of corruption. I am just offering up a cautionary message that Ukraine will need to demonstrate all on its own that is has a natural interest in human rights and democracy or things. Americans - probably for one of the first periods in our history- are not interested in trying to talk you into it.

It seems to me that a situation may arise when one thing will be said from the podium, and another in secret. Or maybe we understand democracy differently. In any case, the majority of Ukrainians would like a democracy like in the US and EU (except for the legalization of LGBT marriages and other unnatural things).

I cannot believe that the one who gives money picked up the phone and said to the President of Ukraine: "Leave the UOC alone," and the President of Ukraine did not listen and did the opposite. I do not believe it.

Nick1000 said:
We don't know how the American election is going to go but if Trump wins and he wants to dial down the support to Ukraine then he will be using the fact that we are funding a country that does not even support religious freedom as talking point. It is just the reality of the environment we are in. So Ukraine should think that through. Trump is not going to be talking about how he can get Americans to care about democracy in Ukraine. And if Kamala wins she will want to be able to point out how Ukraine is a true democracy so we should be supporting them. Not having religious freedom will not help her to make that point.

In these conditions, cutting support means helping Russia seize Ukraine. This cannot be done. It is necessary to seat the parties at the negotiating table, to push both sides to compromise without surrendering Ukraine to the Russians. After all, without American support, Ukraine would not have dared either to have a revolution in 2013 or to resist Russia militarily. If Ukraine had not hoped for strong support from the United States, then it would have been the Hungarian option: without shooting, they would have let Russian tanks into their streets and made all the concessions that Moscow demanded. Only with such an ally (USA) did Ukraine dare to resist military force militarily of Russia.

If you supported the start of the war, then now you need to support it so that peace negotiations can proceed normally.

At least to preserve Ukraine's neutral status as an independent state, like Switzerland or Japan. Ukrainians have already fought enough for 3 generations to come. Now it will take 70 years to recover.

Nick1000 · Aug 26, 2024

ValeriyK2022 said:
If you supported the start of the war, then now you need to support it so that peace negotiations can proceed normally.

Everything cannot be just about the U.S, Nato, and Ukraine.

Your European neighbors, Poland for example, need to put troops on the ground in Ukraine to help Ukraine- inside Ukraine. They know they are next in line if Ukraine falls and they do not need NATO approval and it does not commit NATO for them to act independently to help themselves and Ukraine.

Poland is actively considering it and their foreign minister has said "they do not rule it out." And Poland has replaced Germany as the leader of economic and military matters in the EU and also has a productive relationship with both Biden and Trump. Versus Germany which has to dither and try to figure out which side it is on from time to time.

ValeriyK2022 · Aug 26, 2024

Nick1000 said:
Everything cannot be just about the U.S, Nato, and Ukraine.

Your European neighbors, Poland for example, need to put troops on the ground in Ukraine to help Ukraine- inside Ukraine. They know they are next in line if Ukraine falls and they do not need NATO approval and it does not commit NATO for them to act independently to help themselves and Ukraine.

Poland is actively considering it and their foreign minister has said "they do not rule it out." And Poland has replaced Germany as the leader of economic and military matters in the EU and also has a productive relationship with both Biden and Trump. Versus Germany which has to dither and try to figure out which side it is on from time to time.

During the Second World War, Poland's territory was captured much faster than Ukraine's. What will happen if Poland falls too?

ValeriyK2022 · Aug 26, 2024

However, this topic is not about war, but about the defense of the UOC. Here is a video that I accidentally saw today:

It seems this issue is starting to creep into American politics.

Nick1000 · Aug 26, 2024

ValeriyK2022 said:
However, this topic is not about war, but about the defense of the UOC. Here is a video that I accidentally saw today:

True but you asked "what it would take for them (Americans) to defend the UOC" and I am saying that the interest is extremely low and Ukraine will need to secure its own freedom as a country and sort that out and its interest in having religious freedom on its own. It is an opportunity for Ukraine to continue to get funding and support if it appears to be a democracy and opportunity to lose it if it does not.

The. U.S. could easily be up to its eyeballs in a war with Iran or China at any time or drug cartels on our southern border. I want Ukraine to do well but I cannot honestly tell you that there will come a time when Americans are worrying about Moscow based churches. Maybe it should not be that way but it is what it is. We will be observing whether Ukraine provides basic freedoms or not and decide what our support is from there.

Secure your freedom as a country- and do well with the religious freedom issue.

E.C. · Aug 26, 2024

ValeriyK2022 said:
What could motivate Americans to defend real democracy and human rights in Ukraine? What could motivate them to defend the UOC?

Idealism and the acknowledgement that the OCU is not a partner acting in good faith.

The Russian ties to the UOC do not help. However, the fact that the OCU has not acted in good faith could help. From the start of Constantinople's colony to the present day, Metropolitan Onuphry's one condition to meeting with them has been to stop the violence and force seizures against OCU churches, monasteries, and, people. Mr. Dumenko and his "church" have never agreed to that; meaning, they have never agreed to stopping the violence against the OCU.

Most Americans don't care about Ukraine nor Orthodoxy, however, they do sympathize with underdogs and Ukraine in this war is an underdog. We also generally do not like people who act in bad faith. Even Constantinople is slowly realizing that Mr. Dumenko is not acting in good faith.

ValeriyK2022 · Aug 26, 2024

To be objective, I will present the opposite point of view. This is a monk from Athos, Russian by nationality, he is a better advocate for Ukrainians than the Ukrainians themselves and he believes that the above-mentioned law did not ban the UOC, but only gave the UOC 9 months to prove its independence from Patriarch Kirill:

ValeriyK2022 · Aug 26, 2024

Вот ссылка на закон:

Про захист конституційного ладу у сфері діяльності релігійних організацій

Закон України від 20.08.2024 № 3894-IX

zakon.rada.gov.ua

I glanced through it and this is what I immediately saw:
1) "directly or indirectly connected (including through the speeches of their leaders) support armed aggression against Ukraine";
2) "whose governing center is located in the aggressor state";
3) confirmation of the facts of the use of the ideology of the "Russian world" by a religious organization.

And here are the possible pitfalls:
1) there are 15 main Orthodox churches in the world and only 9 patriarchates; thus, 6 Orthodox churches, including the Japanese, American, Polish and some others can also be accused of connections with the Moscow Patriarch and subject to ban in Ukraine;
2) the UOC cannot itself resolve the issue of belonging to one or another patriarchate - this is prohibited by the canons, Italian and French Catholics fought with each other, but France did not ban the activities of the Catholic Church only because the Pope was for Mussolini;
3) regarding the "Russian world" - there is no specificity as to what is meant; now this is what is called the Russian ultra-right sector of politics, Russian fascists, but this is not spelled out in the law; if the law is applied literally, then all our saints are also the Russian world, because there was Kievan Rus and everything related to it is also called Russian!

Thus, de jure they did not ban it, but de facto the law is written in such a way that it can be easily used to ban the UOC and all saints, starting from Vladimir the Great, Prince of Kyiv and St. Anthony, the founder of the Kiev-Pechersk Lavra to the present day.

E.C. · Aug 26, 2024

You know, the relationship between the Ukrainian Orthodox Church and the Orthodox Church in America is a really good one. What if the Ukrainian Orthodox Church put itself under the OCA? I mean, what better way to keep the Ukrainian government away than to be under the American Church as an autonomous Church? At least until the war is over.

Real autocephaly would be the best solution but Moscow will never grant it. At least being under the OCA, the UOC would be able to exist as it is and also avoid being under Constantinople. It would also indirectly tie American aide to the safety of the hypthetical-OCA-affiliated UOC.

In what cases can a traditional church be banned in democratic states? The Ukrainian Orthodox Church may be banned.

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