If We Go On Sinning

[Christsfreeservant]

 

[Godsunworthyservant]

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Exactly. Those who believe in the concept of Eternal Security or "once saved, always saved" often overlook this little detail. Christ taught us what to do with our lives and one of those things was to leave sin behind. He also taught stuff like using our time and resources to help those less fortunate. I heard an old preacher one time say "If Christians just spent their time and money doing what Christ taught they wouldn't have any time or money left to engage in sin".

 

[Christsfreeservant]

Exactly. Those who believe in the concept of Eternal Security or "once saved, always saved" often overlook this little detail. Christ taught us what to do with our lives and one of those things was to leave sin behind. He also taught stuff like using our time and resources to help those less fortunate. I heard an old preacher one time say "If Christians just spent their time and money doing what Christ taught they wouldn't have any time or money left to engage in sin".

Thank you for sharing that. As you can imagine, I don't normally get many people agreeing with this, for so many are believing that they can just give lip service to the Lord and they have forgiveness of all sins and heaven guaranteed them. But if they read the Scriptures in context, they can't miss it that faith in Jesus involves leaving our sins behind us and following our Lord wherever he now leads us, in obedience to him as our Lord - all because of what Jesus did for us on that cross, by the grace of God, and in the power of God, for the glory of God.

 

[B Griffin]

"For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a terrifying expectation of judgment and the fury of a fire which will consume the adversaries." (Hebrews 10:26-27 NASB1995)

Not many people are teaching this these days, but this is actually part of the gospel of our salvation. Jesus taught that to come after him we must deny self, die to sin daily, and follow him in obedience. But if we hold on to our sin, and we don't obey God, in practice, we will not have salvation and eternal life with God.

How does a person who thinks that he is not guilty of sin overcome his delusion?

And Paul taught that by faith in Jesus we die with him to sin and we are raised with Christ to walk in newness of life in him, no longer to live as slaves to sin. So we must not let sin reign in our bodies to obey its lusts. For if sin is what we obey, it results in death, but obedience to God results in salvation and eternal life.

For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. (Ro 6:23 NASB 1995)​

Eternal death is certainly the "wage" we earn from our sins. But eternal life is not earned, it is a "free gift".

And John taught that if we say we are in fellowship with God, but while we still walk in sin, we are liars. And if we say that we know God, but we do not obey his commands, in practice, we are liars. For the one who practices righteousness is righteous, but the one who practices sin is of the devil, and he does not have salvation.

When a person does not see John's remarks as applying to the new man's true righteousness and holiness, he must 1) deny that he has any sin, 2) look for loopholes to avoid self-condemnation, or 3) fall on his knees at the feet of Jesus and seek His mercy. I think most people on the forums in which I participate choose number 2, adding qualifying words like "practice" and "habitual" to obscure their guilt.

For Jesus Christ died on that cross to put our sins to death with him so that, by faith in him, we will die to sin and live to righteousness in obedience to our Lord in holy living, in his power. So if you are professing to believe in Christ, but sin is what you practice, and not obedience to God, you will face God's wrath.

Some churches teach that only big sins cause us to face God's wrath. Others teach that only habitual sins cause us to face God's wrath. Still others teach that any and all sins cause us to face God's wrath. But most churches teach that all the sins which cause us to face the wrath of God can only be remediated by Christ's sacrifice for those sins. This seems to be the only common thread. Maybe we should focus on that for unity's sake instead of condemning one another.

 

[Godsunworthyservant]

Thank you for sharing that. As you can imagine, I don't normally get many people agreeing with this, for so many are believing that they can just give lip service to the Lord and they have forgiveness of all sins and heaven guaranteed them. But if they read the Scriptures in context, they can't miss it that faith in Jesus involves leaving our sins behind us and following our Lord wherever he now leads us, in obedience to him as our Lord - all because of what Jesus did for us on that cross, by the grace of God, and in the power of God, for the glory of God.

Well, Christ told us in Matthew 25:31-46 how we would be judged on that day. In the KJV it reads;

31When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: 32And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats: 33And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.

"34Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: 35For I was an hungered, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in: 36Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me. 37Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungered, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink? 38When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee? 39Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee? 40And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.

41Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: 42For I was an hungered, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink: 43I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not. 44Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungered, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee? 45Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me. 46And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal."

Notice He doesn't say I see where you went to the alter or said the sinners prayer one day. He says we will be judged by how much we have helped our fellow man who was in need. In other words, did you truly repent. The Greek word that's translated "repent" is Metanoeite. (and it doesn't appear that my attempt to link to Strong's worked again). At any rate it's Strong's Greek 3340. It is a present verb, imperative and active. The key word there is active. Many use the simple definition of "turn away from". The NASB defines it as "to change one's mind our purpose". Bengel's Gnomon of the New Testament speaks of the analogy of being "partakers in the Gospel", meaning not just believers but taking action based on that belief, i.e partaking. I have studied this word and it's implications quite thoroughly as it is obviously a cornerstone of Christ's teachings. Without going into great detail, it is almost exclusively used in context of making a major change in one's thinking and actions. It means turning away from one way of thinking and acting and embarking on an entirely new one.

Many who espouse the Eternal Security or "once saved always saved" theories will point to single verses taken out of context to bolster their beliefs. If it were true that all that's required to obtain Salvation is to make a single pronouncement of faith or say the sinners prayer one time or ask forgiveness one time, then every serial killer who ever did one of these things in their younger days would qualify. They like to quote John 10:28 which in the KJV reads; "28And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand." It is out of context even with the preceding verse much less the totality of Christ's teachings on the matter. Verse 27 reads; "27My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:" So, who is it that can't be "plucked out of his hand"? Those who "follow Him". The Greek word here translated "follow" is akolouthousin. (once again not sure about the link but it's Strong's Greek 190) It is a present indicative active verb. Note again it's active. It means actively following i.e. actually doing what He said and not just professing faith. Christ told us clearly what we must do in order to follow Him and it's found in the totality of His teachings but it begins with repenting and that by definition means leaving our sinful life behind.

 

[Christsfreeservant]

Well, Christ told us in Matthew 25:31-46 how we would be judged on that day. In the KJV it reads;

31When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: 32And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats: 33And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.

"34Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: 35For I was an hungered, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in: 36Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me. 37Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungered, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink? 38When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee? 39Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee? 40And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.

41Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: 42For I was an hungered, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink: 43I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not. 44Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungered, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee? 45Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me. 46And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal."

Notice He doesn't say I see where you went to the alter or said the sinners prayer one day. He says we will be judged by how much we have helped our fellow man who was in need. In other words, did you truly repent. The Greek word that's translated "repent" is Metanoeite. (and it doesn't appear that my attempt to link to Strong's worked again). At any rate it's Strong's Greek 3340. It is a present verb, imperative and active. The key word there is active. Many use the simple definition of "turn away from". The NASB defines it as "to change one's mind our purpose". Bengel's Gnomon of the New Testament speaks of the analogy of being "partakers in the Gospel", meaning not just believers but taking action based on that belief, i.e partaking. I have studied this word and it's implications quite thoroughly as it is obviously a cornerstone of Christ's teachings. Without going into great detail, it is almost exclusively used in context of making a major change in one's thinking and actions. It means turning away from one way of thinking and acting and embarking on an entirely new one.

Many who espouse the Eternal Security or "once saved always saved" theories will point to single verses taken out of context to bolster their beliefs. If it were true that all that's required to obtain Salvation is to make a single pronouncement of faith or say the sinners prayer one time or ask forgiveness one time, then every serial killer who ever did one of these things in their younger days would qualify. They like to quote John 10:28 which in the KJV reads; "28And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand." It is out of context even with the preceding verse much less the totality of Christ's teachings on the matter. Verse 27 reads; "27My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:" So, who is it that can't be "plucked out of his hand"? Those who "follow Him". The Greek word here translated "follow" is akolouthousin. (once again not sure about the link but it's Strong's Greek 190) It is a present indicative active verb. Note again it's active. It means actively following i.e. actually doing what He said and not just professing faith. Christ told us clearly what we must do in order to follow Him and it's found in the totality of His teachings but it begins with repenting and that by definition means leaving our sinful life behind.

Thank you.

 

[1Tonne]

How does a person who thinks that he is not guilty of sin overcome his delusion?

Show him the Law. Ask him, "How many lies have you told? Have you ever stolen something? Have you used God's name as a cuss word? Have you ever looked with lust?" Then tell him the wages of sin is death.
"Therefore the law was our tutor to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith." Galatians 3:24

Eternal death is certainly the "wage" we earn from our sins. But eternal life is not earned, it is a "free gift".

You're absolutely right — eternal life is a free gift. God gives His grace to those who believe in Him; our works do not save us. However, true belief will naturally produce good works. They aren't forced or done to earn salvation, but are the natural overflow of a heart changed by faith.
Beliefs always shape how we live. Those who truly believe that their sins put Jesus on the cross will not want to continue in them. It would be unthinkable to knowingly persist in the very things that caused His suffering.
This is why Scripture says we are justified by works and not by faith alone (James 2:24). Our actions are the evidence of genuine faith. How we live reveals whether we truly believe."

 

[B Griffin]

Show him the Law. Ask him, "How many lies have you told? Have you ever stolen something? Have you used God's name as a cuss word? Have you ever looked with lust?" Then tell him the wages of sin is death.
"Therefore the law was our tutor to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith." Galatians 3:24

That's right. The law does its job. "By the law is the knowledge of sin" (Ro 3:20), and we "would not have known sin except through the law" (Ro 7:7). Together with the verse you quoted, these verses say that the law shows us we are sinners in need of a Savior.

After finding Christ, however, it is possible to lose sight of the fact that we are right with God solely because of the Savior. Paul called out a group of NT Christians who had done this very thing (Ga 1:6). He called them "foolish" (Ga 3:1). He told them that they had "become estranged from Christ" and had "fallen from grace" for the simple fact that they wanted to be "justified by law" (Ga 5:4). He warned them of the law's curse for not obeying it completely and pointed out that in God's eyes no one is justified because of their obedience to His laws (Ga 3:11).

Being a good fruit inspector, Paul became concerned for their salvation when He observed these legalistic fruits that are not consistent with trusting Christ for salvation (Ga 3:4, 4:20). He told them to stand fast in their liberty and to not be entangled again in that yoke of bondage (Ga 5:1). He also told them they were "called to liberty" (Ga 5:13), but cautioned them to not use their liberty "as an opportuinty for the flesh" (Ga 5:13).

My experience tells me there are many who refuse to embrace "the liberty by which Christ has made us free" (Ga 5:1), and I suspect the reason is that they fear that liberty will lead to liscentiousness. But we have been called to liberty. We must learn how to live free without abusing our freedom. Failure to live free is not an option.

You're absolutely right — eternal life is a free gift. God gives His grace to those who believe in Him; our works do not save us. However, true belief will naturally produce good works. They aren't forced or done to earn salvation, but are the natural overflow of a heart changed by faith.
Beliefs always shape how we live. Those who truly believe that their sins put Jesus on the cross will not want to continue in them. It would be unthinkable to knowingly persist in the very things that caused His suffering.
This is why Scripture says we are justified by works and not by faith alone (James 2:24). Our actions are the evidence of genuine faith. How we live reveals whether we truly believe."

I generally agree with what you've said here. However, I would point to our union with Christ and our oneness with Him in spirit (1 Cor 6:17) as the reason we do not want to continue in our sins. In other words, sin is repulsive to us, not because it put Him on the cross, but because we are new creatures in Christ. And in regard to legalistic Christian living, that sort of sin should be repulsive, we should strive to avoid it, and we should try to help victimized Christians out of it. However, this is only advisable for spiritual Christians who are also introspective (Ga 6:1) because indulging just a little legalism can do a great deal of damage (Ga 5:9).

 

[1Tonne]

That's right. The law does its job. "By the law is the knowledge of sin" (Ro 3:20), and we "would not have known sin except through the law" (Ro 7:7). Together with the verse you quoted, these verses say that the law shows us we are sinners in need of a Savior.

After finding Christ, however, it is possible to lose sight of the fact that we are right with God solely because of the Savior. Paul called out a group of NT Christians who had done this very thing (Ga 1:6). He called them "foolish" (Ga 3:1). He told them that they had "become estranged from Christ" and had "fallen from grace" for the simple fact that they wanted to be "justified by law" (Ga 5:4). He warned them of the law's curse for not obeying it completely and pointed out that in God's eyes no one is justified because of their obedience to His laws (Ga 3:11).

Being a good fruit inspector, Paul became concerned for their salvation when He observed these legalistic fruits that are not consistent with trusting Christ for salvation (Ga 3:4, 4:20). He told them to stand fast in their liberty and to not be entangled again in that yoke of bondage (Ga 5:1). He also told them they were "called to liberty" (Ga 5:13), but cautioned them to not use their liberty "as an opportuinty for the flesh" (Ga 5:13).

My experience tells me there are many who refuse to embrace "the liberty by which Christ has made us free" (Ga 5:1), and I suspect the reason is that they fear that liberty will lead to liscentiousness. But we have been called to liberty. We must learn how to live free without abusing our freedom. Failure to live free is not an option.

I generally agree with what you've said here. However, I would point to our union with Christ and our oneness with Him in spirit (1 Cor 6:17) as the reason we do not want to continue in our sins. In other words, sin is repulsive to us, not because it put Him on the cross, but because we are new creatures in Christ. And in regard to legalistic Christian living, that sort of sin should be repulsive, we should strive to avoid it, and we should try to help victimized Christians out of it. However, this is only advisable for spiritual Christians who are also introspective (Ga 6:1) because indulging just a little legalism can do a great deal of damage (Ga 5:9).

Another good verse for the law is Psalms 19:7. "The law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul". When we show people see their sin and they know that they will be judged by a Holy and Rightous Judge, then they may start to have a fear of God and want to run from sin. "and by the fear of the LORD men depart from evil" Prov 16:6
But once we know the truth, and we have chosen to put God as the King of our lives, we are no longer under the Law. "But after faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor." Gal 3:25

 

[SabbathBlessings]

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Amen! Our salvation is from sin Mat 1:21

And God did not let man define what sin is, which is by not living the moral and righteous way God asks us to live, Psa 119:172 Isa 56:1-2 He did, written and spoken personally by God, His personal Testimony Exo 31:18

1 John 3:4 Whoever commits sin also commits lawlessness, and sin is lawlessness.

James 2:10 For whoever shall keep the whole law, and yet stumble in one point, he is guilty of all. 11 For He who said, “Do not commit adultery,” also said, “Do not murder.” Now if you do not commit adultery, but you do murder, you have become a transgressor of the law.

We can see the rest of what He said, breaking one we break them all here Ten Commandments God's perfect law converting the soul Psa 19:7 written by our perfect Savior. Exo 31:18.

 

[B Griffin]

Notice He doesn't say I see where you went to the alter or said the sinners prayer one day. He says we will be judged by how much we have helped our fellow man who was in need. In other words, did you truly repent. The Greek word that's translated "repent" is Metanoeite. (and it doesn't appear that my attempt to link to Strong's worked again). At any rate it's Strong's Greek 3340. It is a present verb, imperative and active. The key word there is active. Many use the simple definition of "turn away from". The NASB defines it as "to change one's mind our purpose". Bengel's Gnomon of the New Testament speaks of the analogy of being "partakers in the Gospel", meaning not just believers but taking action based on that belief, i.e partaking. I have studied this word and it's implications quite thoroughly as it is obviously a cornerstone of Christ's teachings. Without going into great detail, it is almost exclusively used in context of making a major change in one's thinking and actions. It means turning away from one way of thinking and acting and embarking on an entirely new one.

Why do you call yourself "God's Unworthy Servant"? Seems like you are saying that you are not worthy, indicating a need for forgiveness. Yet your analysis above speaks nothing of forgiveness but only applauds performance.

Many who espouse the Eternal Security or "once saved always saved" theories will point to single verses taken out of context to bolster their beliefs. If it were true that all that's required to obtain Salvation is to make a single pronouncement of faith or say the sinners prayer one time or ask forgiveness one time, then every serial killer who ever did one of these things in their younger days would qualify.

If anyone looks at salvation the way you have described, then certainly their views would be superficial. But I think it is safe to say that those on the eternal security side of the fence see salvation as a single transformative event that "[delivers] us from the power of darkness and [conveys] us into the kingdom of the Son of His love" (Col 1:13), causes us to pass "from death to life" (1 Jn 3:14), and by spiritual birth (Jn 3:6) makes us children of God instead of Children of the devil (1 Jn 3:10). Obviously, these concepts are not part of the doctrine of those who think salvation is gained or maintained by good works. They typically see salvation as something obtained in the future at the end of a life well lived.

They like to quote John 10:28 which in the KJV reads; "28And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand." It is out of context even with the preceding verse much less the totality of Christ's teachings on the matter. Verse 27 reads; "27My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:" So, who is it that can't be "plucked out of his hand"? Those who "follow Him". The Greek word here translated "follow" is akolouthousin. (once again not sure about the link but it's Strong's Greek 190) It is a present indicative active verb. Note again it's active. It means actively following i.e. actually doing what He said and not just professing faith. Christ told us clearly what we must do in order to follow Him and it's found in the totality of His teachings but it begins with repenting and that by definition means leaving our sinful life behind.

Yes, that is a good verse. And yes, context is everything. It does not say, "I will give them eternal life at the end of a life well lived". John 10:25-30 says, "You don't believe because you are not one of my sheep. But My sheep hear My voice. I personally know them. And unlike you, they follow me. And I have given them (not you) eternal life. They will never perish. And nobody will ever snatch them out of my hand. My Father has given them to me. He is greater than every power in the universe. No one is able to remove them from His protection. And just so you know, I and my Father are one". This is not a direct quote, but a paraphrase.

And this passage, which consists of 6 verses (not just a single verse taken out of context), says that the reason Jesus' sheep may have confidence in their eternal security is that God is personally protecting them from destruction. It does not say the duration of their eternal lives or their escape from eternal condemnation is dependent on their works. It says that because of their trust in Christ they have become His sheep and as a result they follow Him as sheep do a shepherd. Upon them becoming sheep, He gives them life that lasts forever, and promises them that He will keep them safe from destruction forever. He can make good on that promise because He Himself is the stongest entity in the universe.

This passage also serves as a warning to those who refuse to place their trust in Christ. A person who has not become a sheep through faith in Christ does not hear his voice, has not been given eternal life, and is still facing destruction. But He is still drawing them to Himself, so all is not lost for them.

 

[Godsunworthyservant]

Why do you call yourself "God's Unworthy Servant"? Seems like you are saying that you are not worthy, indicating a need for forgiveness.

I believe we are all in need of forgiveness and none of us are worthy of God's grace on our own account.

Yet your analysis above speaks nothing of forgiveness but only applauds performance.

That's because the subject isn't forgiveness. It's about living one's life once one has sought forgiveness. If forgiveness is all we talk about that would ignore all the other things that Christ taught. It's that kind of thinking that's the subject of the old story "I asked God for a bike". I'll paraphrase. I asked God for a bike. I didn't receive it. SO, I went to church and asked the pastor why. He explained to me that "That's not how God works". So, I stole a bike and asked God for forgiveness". That's not the way my Christianity works. Christ taught repentance and forgiveness and He also taught how to live our lives, This discussion is about the latter. If you would like to start a discussion on forgiveness, I'll be glad to add my 2 cents worth to it as well.

If anyone looks at salvation the way you have described, then certainly their views would be superficial.

Sticks and stones may break my bones but calling my views superficial doesn't bother me in the least. I've been called worse by better, I'm sure.

But I think it is safe to say that those on the eternal security side of the fence see salvation as a single transformative event that "[delivers] us from the power of darkness and [conveys] us into the kingdom of the Son of His love" (Col 1:13), causes us to pass "from death to life" (1 Jn 3:14), and by spiritual birth (Jn 3:6) makes us children of God instead of Children of the devil (1 Jn 3:10).

My point exactly. That's what they believe. It's a pretty singular description but it's the way some folks see it. So, I disagree. That's why Christians have been divided into an estimated 45,000 denominations.

Obviously, these concepts are not part of the doctrine of those who think salvation is gained or maintained by good works. They typically see salvation as something obtained in the future at the end of a life well lived.

I disagree with them as well. Sorry to disappoint you.

It does not say, "I will give them eternal life at the end of a life well lived"

And neither did I.

This is not a direct quote, but a paraphrase.

I don't like to paraphrase the words of Christ. It leads to way too much room for error. I quote it (usually from the KJV for the benefit of onliests) and then comment separately, but to each his own. I quoted Christ verbatim from the KJV.

And this passage, which consists of 6 verses (not just a single verse taken out of context), says that the reason Jesus' sheep may have confidence in their eternal security is that God is personally protecting them from destruction.

First, I quoted the single verse that Eternal Security believers quote out of context to bolster their belief. I believe I even mentioned that it's taken out of context by those who use it that way. You speak of context but add your own words in a paraphrase. Here's the actual six verses from the KJV directly, and not embellished with your paraphrase;

"25Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me. 26But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you. 27My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: 28And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. 29My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand. 30I and my Father are one."

Tell me where in this dissertation you see Christ say or imply "that God is personally protecting them from destruction? You are reading between the lines and that's another thing I think is dangerous. I believe I also noted that when you add the context of verse 27 to the picture, it explains that the reason they will never be "plucked" from his hand is that they follow him. That was whole point of my post that you seem to have overlooked in your zeal to find fault with the entire premise.

It does not say the duration of their eternal lives or their escape from eternal condemnation is dependent on their works

Where did that come from? I never said it did.

It says that because of their trust in Christ they have become His sheep and as a result they follow Him as sheep do a shepherd.

Exactly what I said.

This passage also serves as a warning to those who refuse to place their trust in Christ.

Christ's entire message should serve as a warning and an invitation to those who refuse to place their trust in Him. I'm really not sure what your point is and after reading your reply, I still don't have a clue where you stand on the issue of Eternal Security and continued sin after repentance. Maybe it's hidden in there somewhere but could you please clarify as I can't seem to find it?

 

[B Griffin]

I believe we are all in need of forgiveness and none of us are worthy of God's grace on our own account.

That's because the subject isn't forgiveness. It's about living one's life once one has sought forgiveness. If forgiveness is all we talk about that would ignore all the other things that Christ taught. It's that kind of thinking that's the subject of the old story "I asked God for a bike". I'll paraphrase. I asked God for a bike. I didn't receive it. SO, I went to church and asked the pastor why. He explained to me that "That's not how God works". So, I stole a bike and asked God for forgiveness". That's not the way my Christianity works. Christ taught repentance and forgiveness and He also taught how to live our lives, This discussion is about the latter. If you would like to start a discussion on forgiveness, I'll be glad to add my 2 cents worth to it as well.

I was just pointing out the incongruity of thinking that salvation is contingent on living properly on one hand and feeling unworthy on the other. It seems like forgiveness is the only thing that bridges that gap.

Sticks and stones may break my bones but calling my views superficial doesn't bother me in the least. I've been called worse by better, I'm sure.

You misunderstood what I was trying to say. You described what you thought my side believed, and I was agreeing with you that if that is what we thought it would be superficial.

My point exactly. That's what they believe. It's a pretty singular description but it's the way some folks see it. So, I disagree. That's why Christians have been divided into an estimated 45,000 denominations.

Your description was not like mine at all. And to take an opposing point of view is to not understand what happens when a person is saved.

I disagree with them as well. Sorry to disappoint you.

That's hard to understand. You oppose eternal security. So that implies salvation once obtained can be lost, presumably by bad conduct or bad choices. How does not fall into the category of "salvation is gained or maintained by good works"? Maybe you're just disagreeing with those who think they don't have eternal life now and will gain it in the future? I said put the word "typically" in there in recognition that not all people who don't believe in eternal security believe that part. What you don't believe doesn't disappoint me.

And neither did I.

When you say, "we will be judged by how much we have helped our fellow man", are you not saying either "the duration of their eternal lives" or "their escape from eternal condemnation" is dependent on their works?

I don't like to paraphrase the words of Christ. It leads to way too much room for error. I quote it (usually from the KJV for the benefit of onliests) and then comment separately, but to each his own. I quoted Christ verbatim from the KJV.

First, I quoted the single verse that Eternal Security believers quote out of context to bolster their belief. I believe I even mentioned that it's taken out of context by those who use it that way. You speak of context but add your own words in a paraphrase. Here's the actual six verses from the KJV directly, and not embellished with your paraphrase;

"25Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me. 26But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you. 27My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: 28And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. 29My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand. 30I and my Father are one."

Tell me where in this dissertation you see Christ say or imply "that God is personally protecting them from destruction? You are reading between the lines and that's another thing I think is dangerous. I believe I also noted that when you add the context of verse 27 to the picture, it explains that the reason they will never be "plucked" from his hand is that they follow him. That was whole point of my post that you seem to have overlooked in your zeal to find fault with the entire premise.

We see each other as adding and/or subtracting to the Scriptures to support our own ideology. I paraphrased the text to make it clear how I read it. From my point of view, your explanations do harm to the meaning even though you are not paraphasing.

Where did that come from? I never said it did.

It came from here:

He says we will be judged by how much we have helped our fellow man who was in need

Exactly what I said.

No, I do not think you are saying that faith makes a person a sheep, that being a sheep results in a person hearing and following Jesus, and that God's protection of their eternal life is for His sheep. I think you are saying that being a sheep and having eternal life protected by God is dependent on following Jesus. But I could be wrong.

Christ's entire message should serve as a warning and an invitation to those who refuse to place their trust in Him. I'm really not sure what your point is and after reading your reply, I still don't have a clue where you stand on the issue of Eternal Security and continued sin after repentance. Maybe it's hidden in there somewhere but could you please clarify as I can't seem to find it?

It's hiding in my paraphase. When we first put our trust in Christ, He comes to live in our hearts. Him entering our hearts causes us to be born spiritually (we are born of the Spirit). We become His sheep, we begin to hear His voice, and we begin to follow Him. We obtain eternal life and we will never perish. He is keeping us from eternal death and is able to do so because He is stronger than all others.

In terms of our attitude towards sin, it changes when He comes to live in our hearts. It is repulsive to us, and our sins make us feel miserable, wretched, and poor. But His grace is greater than all our sin. Not being led by the law, but being led by the Spirit, we seek to please Him by walking in the newness of Life. When we go astray, He corrects us. And we never have to wory about waking up one day a million miles away from Him not knowing how we arrived there because He is our heavenly Father who cares much more about us than do our earthly fathers.

 

[1Tonne]

When you say, "we will be judged by how much we have helped our fellow man", are you not saying either "the duration of their eternal lives" or "their escape from eternal condemnation" is dependent on their works?

James 2:24 "You are justified by works and not by faith alone"

No, I do not think you are saying that faith makes a person a sheep, that being a sheep results in a person hearing and following Jesus, and that God's protection of their eternal life is for His sheep. I think you are saying that being a sheep and having eternal life protected by God is dependent on following Jesus. But I could be wrong.

Many may think that they are his sheep, but they did not follow Him.
“Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22 Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ 23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’ Matt 7:21-23

 

[Godsunworthyservant]

You misunderstood what I was trying to say. You described what you thought my side believed, and I was agreeing with you that if that is what we thought it would be superficial.

I don't even know what your side is. I was describing the general theory of Eternal Security. I know it takes various forms in different denominations.

Your description was not like mine at all. And to take an opposing point of view is to not understand what happens when a person is saved.

My description was more in depth but I was agreeing with the singular point. You say that "to take an opposing point of view is to not understand what happens when a person is saved." So every one who has a view that opposes yours "does not understand what happens when a person is saved? Just exactly what is it that happens when a person is saved? You call my views superficial and now you intimate that because you think my views are in opposition to yours that I don't understand what happens when a person is saved. If I'm wrong, so what? If you're wrong then what?

When you say, "we will be judged by how much we have helped our fellow man", are you not saying either "the duration of their eternal lives" or "their escape from eternal condemnation" is dependent on their works?

It wouldn't matter what I say. My say doesn't matter. I said that's what Christ said and provided the passage to back up the fact that He said it. Christ didn't use the same terminology that you use but I guess it's basically the same idea.

We see each other as adding and/or subtracting to the Scriptures to support our own ideology. I paraphrased the text to make it clear how I read it. From my point of view, your explanations do harm to the meaning even though you are not paraphasing.

That's your opinion and you know what they say about opinions.

No, I do not think you are saying that faith makes a person a sheep, that being a sheep results in a person hearing and following Jesus, and that God's protection of their eternal life is for His sheep. I think you are saying that being a sheep and having eternal life protected by God is dependent on following Jesus. But I could be wrong.

I don't think faith or works or anything else for that matter makes anyone "a sheep". The sheep is simply an analogy used by Christ to denote His true followers who hear His voice and follow Him. We will all have eternal life but it's only the "sheep" who hear and follow Christ will have eternal life in Heaven.

In terms of our attitude towards sin, it changes when He comes to live in our hearts.

It's not all about not sinning. It's about positive actions. Yes, repenting and abstaining from sin is one part. Sinning is what Christ taught us not to do. What He taught us to do is just as important and what He told us to do is to spend our time and resources helping those I need and give god the glory.