I will scientifically prove the existence of God to you

[jacks]

Just a point:
I don't think he meant any poster said "Disorder doesn't exit." I believe what he was saying was, that even though we can't see the order of something, doesn't mean there isn't an order to it. Just not an order we can make out. In fact that would be a way of saying "disorder doesn't exit". We just don't see the order.

 

[SelfSim]

Just a point:
I don't think he meant any poster said "Disorder doesn't exit." I believe what he was saying was, that even though we can't see the order of something, doesn't mean there isn't an order to it. Just not an order we can make out. In fact that would be a way of saying "disorder doesn't exit". We just don't see the order.

If its not possible to see, or know of, an order, (ie: a regular pattern), in some system .. then its not possible to infer existence within objective reality.
One can simply believe that something can exist .. which makes that a belief.

 

[The_Order]

Just a point:
I don't think he meant any poster said "Disorder doesn't exit." I believe what he was saying was, that even though we can't see the order of something, doesn't mean there isn't an order to it. Just not an order we can make out. In fact that would be a way of saying "disorder doesn't exit". We just don't see the order.

Thanks, what I wanted to say was exactly this.


A simple example: We can build a machine, right? Parts, gears, everything working together for a purpose. To be able to do this, we have intelligence, power, and will.


We, as humans, are also a machine. Our organs, our cells, everything works together to keep us alive. Who made us ? The only information we have is something that an intelligence/will/power could build us, this is the only observation we have, we have no other information.

 

[Warden_of_the_Storm]

To be honest, I don't know what I expected to see... but it's also very much what I expected to see.

 

[SelfSim]

.. Who made us ? The only information we have is something that an intelligence/will/power could build us, this is the only observation we have, we have no other information.

Information is more is fundamental to consciousness, than it is to observations. Eg: fiction is information, beliefs are information, invisible pink unicorns is information .. and so too, is: 'an intelligence/will/power could build us'. None of these can be observed, yet we all know of such things.

Our knowledge is constantly updated by our minds with new meanings upon us becoming aware of new information, (thus giving knowledge a more reliable quality than raw information). Observation is a careful process for establishing objective meanings. Objective meanings then allow us to distinguish beliefs .. such as: 'an intelligence/will/power {that} could build us'.

 

[SelfSim]

To be honest, I don't what I expected to see... but it's also very much what I expected to see.

 

[Warden_of_the_Storm]

I expected to see something new and interesting, but part of me also kind of expected to see the old "Humans are super special, therefor God!" thing again.

 

[SelfSim]

I expected to see something new and interesting, but part of me also kind of expected to see the old "Humans are super special, therefor God!" thing again.

Ok .. thanks for that clarification. (I think I agree with your expectation there .. now).
Its really unfortunate but I'd love to talk about humans being special in a non-religious sense. I guess that'll never happen around these parts though ..

 

[Warden_of_the_Storm]

Ok .. thanks for that clarification. (I think I agree with your expectation there .. now).
Its really unfortunate but I'd love to talk about humans being special in a non-religious sense. I guess that'll never happen around these parts though ..

Looking back on the comment, I did a booboo. I forgot to add the word 'know'.

 

[partinobodycular]

We, as humans, are also a machine. Our organs, our cells, everything works together to keep us alive. Who made us ? The only information we have is something that an intelligence/will/power could build us, this is the only observation we have, we have no other information.

I do believe that your argument is fundamentally flawed.

If God possesses knowledge, which is the byproduct of order, and God has no cause, then the order by which He possesses said knowledge must also lack a cause.

Therefore order and it's coexistent knowledge don't by necessity require a cause.

Hence your argument fails.

Of course at this point you could invoke special pleading and stipulate that only 'created' order requires a cause, but you don't really want to invoke special pleading do you?

 

[Hans Blaster]

Okay

I dont think this is the right way to do this but to summarize:

As human beings, we act based on knowledge.

We observe and use knowledge through our senses.

Knowledge - lack of observation - imagination are different concepts.

We possess the knowledge that everything exists within a certain order. Just observe your surroundings, you will see that many things exist in harmony with one another.

But we cannot say that there is no order, we have no such observation / knowledge.

An interesting set up, let's see where it goes...

Order is established by an intelligence/will/power, this is what we know and we gained this knowledge by observing ourselves.

Nope. We do not know this.

We have no observation / knowledge suggesting that order arises in any other way.

There is plenty of order without intelligence -- self-organizing systems and the like. For example crystal formation is only dependent on the chemical nature of the atoms involved.

Therefore, the order we live in were created by an intelligence/will/power.

That's the summary.

Note: English is not my native language, so please try to overlook any word mistakes or awkward phrasing.

Your language was fine, but your argument was based on an undemonstrated assertion.

 

[SelfSim]

I do believe that your argument is fundamentally flawed.

If God possesses knowledge, which is the byproduct of order, and God has no cause, then the order by which He possesses said knowledge must also lack a cause.

Therefore order and it's coexistent knowledge don't by necessity require a cause.

Hence your argument fails.

Of course at this point you could invoke special pleading and stipulate that only 'created' order requires a cause, but you don't really want to invoke special pleading do you?

It succeeds as a belief .. (which is kind of routinely boring).

 

[Hans Blaster]

Everyone knows there is a God - Romans 1.

We don't. Making claims about what others "know" is a perilous path. Just because Paul of Tarsus asserted it to be so, does not make it so.

 

[The IbanezerScrooge]

Oh. How disappointing. I'd hoped for something new.

 

[Hans Blaster]

Oh. How disappointing. I'd hoped for something new.

Pretty standard Islamic apologetics for the existence of god. They have a somewhat different spin on some of it, but not really much different than Christian apologetics on the subject.

 

[dlamberth]

We have no observation / knowledge suggesting that order arises in any other way.

Therefore, the order we live in were created by an intelligence/will/power.

This is were you made the jump to faith that might work for some, but is not science. And does not prove God., certainly not to me. And I'm very much a Lover of God. For those who wear a spiritual hat, your idea only works with a particular type of belief about God that is not necessarily shared by others.

 

[AV1611VET]

As far as i can tell, this only shows the believe of some people in god, not the existence of of the god itself.

Which came first? God or belief in God?

 

[Perpetual Student]

Which came first? God or belief in God?

Humanity has a long history of believing in things or entities that didn't exist after all: vampires, zombies, the eather, phlogiston, coronium, etc.
Believing is something is no prove whatsoever of the existence of any deity.

 

[Perpetual Student]

Okay

I dont think this is the right way to do this but to summarize:

As human beings, we act based on knowledge.

Hello there.
Do you realize that you already show yourself wrong? You don't think this to be the right way, yet you don't act according with that knowledge.
Kind of refuting your own argument.

 

[Perpetual Student]

I offer the help I can because I see myself as responsible before the Creator. A person's faith is entirely their own responsibility, it does me no harm.

This is the scientific proof of God's existence. I explained it as clearly as possible. This is entirely scientific. What is science ? Its the observation and discovery of things. And this is exactly that.

Invoking science or scientific proof is a dangerous thing. Once you claim to use science your arguments will be evaluated according to the scientific method. Are you sure you want to down that way? Are you ready to adhere to intellectual rigor that this requires? What will you do with empirical evidence that contradicts your conclusions or premisses? Discard them?