I am Tired of arguing...

[Gregory Thompson]

...tired of debate, tired of defending and critiquing.

Maybe it is time to practice a poverty of opinion.

There is always a good chance that I am misinformed, mistaken and in the wrong about most everything.

Mea culpa

I recall when people would get beyond exhausted, and start to experience something similar to road rage and quit the forum. I understand your sentiment, I experience it quite a bit.

On any topic, I would be thinking of multiple parallels. However, it is common for people to flame the strawman that I am only of the opinion I am expressing. The perspective is common on here, and quite limited.

 

[Runningman]

...tired of debate, tired of defending and critiquing.

Maybe it is time to practice a poverty of opinion.

There is always a good chance that I am misinformed, mistaken and in the wrong about most everything.

Mea culpa

I would just say that it's possible to learn a lot from debating, but to me arguing would be a discussion that gets a bit heated which I think we should avoid in general.

I do agree that each person, no matter how convinced they are in their own mind about what they think they know, and no matter how right it feels , should always be willing to once again return to the foundation and give it a periodic reexamination. (Hebrews 5:11-14)

There is no shame in being wrong, not knowing, being misinformed, or even deceived.

Where the same comes is being exposed to proof of what the truth is and then rejecting it. This characteristic is representative of most people I've talked to, unfortunately. At some point I just chock it up to human nature.

 

[Confused-by-christianity]

Cut this out
"The following describes my beliefs - here is what i think ..." .

Paste it before everything someone posts on here haha ;-)

Thats what I do.

Then, you have nothing to debate really - it's just someone sharing what they believe with you (that's the truth anyway - people are just telling you what they believe and why)

 

[TheTorturedSoul]

Debate and arguments are different and so is discussion. Debate is something like "I hate war" and the other person says "I love war to defend our country." or even "I love war." And the difference between that and arguments is that it doesn't go to "I hate you so much for your opinion! Shut up!" it doesn't go there with even debate. It's logical and not attached to even the slightest emotion it's just debate. However, discussion is something people aim for sometimes and then fail at. Discussion is about expressing your opinion like this "war is hard to deal with, I think that the reason I hate it so much is because it's hurting people. What do you think about hurting people? Is it fine? Sometimes? all the time? or never?" and then the other person does not react meanly, and says "You know...I don't know actually." and if someone ever gets to "I don't know actually." this is good because they actually are thinking they might not know that actual answer to it. Most people would say in discussion "well it's wrong. Stop asking me stupid questions! That is dumb to ask!" and then it escalates. I thought that just asking ONE question for each person that asks you or claims a different opinion would work in helping people calm down about their own opinion. This question can be kind of like "why war in general then?" or "What about life in general is it easy? Hard? easy and hard? Why?" and you try to actually UNDERSTAND WHY without your own opinion getting in the way. I thought that might help people in general online.
But discussion is better than anything like debate. Discussion is like "well I felt like you said this...war is so good all the time! Even when you said I agree that war is not good but there needs to be some sort of war sometimes to help protect people. I feel you're saying war is good all the time however. Is this true?" and then the other person would explain "yes or no" to that. The point of discussion is not to share your opinion, it's to share your voice about certain deep areas that are not spoken of in life. Like LIFE QUESTIONS. Life questions go around areas like "what is the meaning of life?" and then people say "OH yes it's just getting a body and being tested." or whatever answer they came up with at church or wherever they were and they use it forever. However, opinions are not always correct, and most are not and they think they are because they feel tiny emotions towards it and say "ok I know that I can't accept war ever. It's true!" and the other says "well war is fine to defend oneself! It's fine!" and they had tiny emotions towards it too. Then they argue about it forever. This is stupid. Why argue about it when you can really understand the depth of the question?


If you go around saying things like "This is my opinion and this is why" then it will get tiring after a while only because of a few areas. If you think your opinion is so great and you never listen to the other side even slightly to understand what they're talking about, this will make you tired of your own opinion. Then there's things like taking time to listen to actually understand what they mean. This makes it even better. Then if you try to understand then they will say this "Thank you for understanding me." This is something that people cannot do online for some reason. It would be good to try.

Also there are plenty of reasons people get tired of saying their own opinion. There could be something like "I am tired of it because they are so incorrect that I can't stand it." and it has nothing to do with the opinion you have and everything to do with the attitude. This will help people calm down a little when I say this "this is bad to do." People think that it's fine to say "I CAN'T STAND THEIR OPINION!" but honestly it's just words. It's just words and ideas. Yes some are bad some are wicked and some are stupid but stupid is not stupid sometimes. Evil it depends sometimes on what people say about what is evil. I just had someone argue with me about money being evil and I don't believe that. So, that kind of opinion is not true. It's good to look at other options if it's truly something that might be wrong. However, most people cannot tell what is true or not sometimes. They know how to be nice, be good somehow and try not to be evil but they don't know things like "What is the difference between good people and bad?" and people respond with so many different areas and types of people that it just doesn't make sense that people have any discernment at all. So, I don't believe people are led by the holy spirit, I do believe it's true and real but I don't think people have that gift right now because we have too many different opinions everywhere.

So it's good to have a good attitude when you have an opinion but it's better to have some questions like "Does this make sense to you? Is this hard to understand? Or what do you think in general about this?" asking this after you talk about your opinion may help people think this "Oh discussion. Not debate." This might help people online. Honestly it would be good to tell people about this idea but anyway.

I do want to say this however, I would rather have arguments than censorship. Censorship is evil in my opinion. However people think that it's good somehow to have because it makes it so people don't get hurt. But people are using that excuse to actually censor good opinions and good ideas all day long. Facebook is a prime example of censorship during a critical time in history. It was not a good thing.

It's not good to argue in the idea of "I am better at understanding life than you! and this is the opinion you should have!" this is the attitude people have and it makes the conversation turn into arguments rather than debate and discussion. People can have good debates and good discussions if they try to ask questions and have a better attitude. But discussions require questions like "if war was good then why is it always happening?" instead of attacking the person and their opinion you ask a question you both can answer and then you both say "ok this is my opinion about that." and the other does the same. You ask questions to each other and answer it and then say "wow that makes more sense. Thank you for your comment even if we disagree." Disagreements are not the end of the world by the way. People are getting too sensitive about others opinions and then they refuse to talk to them or they ban the person because of an opinion that was so GREAT or BAD or whatever. And then people can't talk. If you censor in this forum because of opinions you are not christian as a forum but it sounds like they do allow certain topics which is nice but it's better to comment everything you need to. Or where do we go to talk online honestly?
I am very happy to hear that you are trying to see the other side of someone else's opinion. If for example however you believe in something good and it's fine like "I don't believe that hitting someone is good ever in a relationship." This is fine to always believe, it's fine to stand by it forever but if someone tries to convince you otherwise you can disagree forever but you need to know why they think that, not just assume, so ask questions and wonder. Wondering keeps the conversation from being argumentative.
Wonder more. Speak nicely and things will finally make sense more often when you talk about your own opinion.

Opinions are just that. Not dangerous even if it's evil sounding, because it's not ACTION. Action is dangerous only if it's evil. But beliefs? Those should not ever be censored ever online.

Thank you for reading.

 

[Mountainmike]

...tired of debate, tired of defending and critiquing.

Maybe it is time to practice a poverty of opinion.

There is always a good chance that I am misinformed, mistaken and in the wrong about most everything.

Mea culpa

Cheer up!

I have no idea what led to your comment, but

The word "wrong" is often a misnomer, for those accusing you of it , stating "they disagree"

The reality is, there can be biblical support for opposite opinions and every shade in between, it depends where you look and how you interpret! which is why christians particularly those who accept no authority outside scripture , disagreeing on pretty much everything!
The question of scripture is always what it means by what it says. The division says it is not at all clear. So the question is what do you think and why?

Not just religion.
In science some things are stated as "fact" for which at best the evidence is circumstantial or flimsy or even non existent! : particularly when the scientific community is controlling the narrative to express belief that something "must" have happened in such a way because they do not like the alternative! Or they are trying to discredit something they simply do not "like" by raising the bar against evidence they do not "like" and lowering the bar for things they do "like". The gatekeepers of science control what they allow in by whether it conforms to their belief system!

Such Scientism is rife. And many statements made in the name of science are actually in the name of scientism.

So in conclusion your opinion is valid too, provided you can make the case.
Do not worry if you are shouted down.
The world shouts down at all Christians, who seem to like to shout down at each other!

Of course motive matters too.
Who are you trying to persuade, them or you? Are you trying to work out if your reasoning stands scrutiny?
You could adopt St Bernadettes reasoning on her mission!
"I am entrusted with telling you what I have seen and heard; I am not entrusted with making you believe it"

 

[Confused-by-christianity]

Where the same comes is being exposed to proof of what the truth is and then rejecting it. This characteristic is representative of most people I've talked to, unfortunately. At some point I just chock it up to human nature.

I'm trying more now to give people the benefit of the doubt that they are not rejecting truth - which i guess makes them immoral.

John Lennox says proof only happens in maths.

I guess if he is correct - then the average person is arguing over the reasoning, sources and perspective.

In these three things put together, I found space to give people the benefit of the doubt that they are not just being immoral - but that they really do, honestly see the world that way.

 

[Confused-by-christianity]

I recall when people would get beyond exhausted, and start to experience something similar to road rage and quit the forum. I understand your sentiment, I experience it quite a bit.

You might wonder why someone would bother trying to persuade someone who won't change - until the point of exhaustion??
I guess I figured that some people have a religion that says, god has set it up so that if you're wrong about something, you really might goto hell forever with no chance of ever escaping, EVER !!!!
That's pretty bleak from any perspective.
I guess i'm starting to think that someone who believes that has enough problems to deal with, without me arguing with them and making their life harder. If there was a gentle way of helping - i should probably take it.

On any topic, I would be thinking of multiple parallels. However, it is common for people to flame the strawman that I am only of the opinion I am expressing. The perspective is common on here, and quite limited.

probably most people are aware of the other reasonable answers in a debate - and are aware of how limited we all are in what we can really know for sure.
If you feel you know everything, you have imprisoned your mind into a box that prevents your mind and consciousness from growing.
If we see someone like this - i more and more "try" to view them as a younger brother or sister whos in trouble, got themselves into a mess and needs a hand. I can help them grow?? maybe???
I guess diplomacy, compassion and gentleness will get me further doing this than debate or arguing - which puts them on the defensive and solidifies their position (i find).

????

 

[Gregory Thompson]

You might wonder why someone would bother trying to persuade someone who won't change - until the point of exhaustion??
I guess I figured that some people have a religion that says, god has set it up so that if you're wrong about something, you really might goto hell forever with no chance of ever escaping, EVER !!!!
That's pretty bleak from any perspective.
I guess i'm starting to think that someone who believes that has enough problems to deal with, without me arguing with them and making their life harder. If there was a gentle way of helping - i should probably take it.

probably most people are aware of the other reasonable answers in a debate - and are aware of how limited we all are in what we can really know for sure.
If you feel you know everything, you have imprisoned your mind into a box that prevents your mind and consciousness from growing.
If we see someone like this - i more and more "try" to view them as a younger brother or sister whos in trouble, got themselves into a mess and needs a hand. I can help them grow?? maybe???
I guess diplomacy, compassion and gentleness will get me further doing this than debate or arguing - which puts them on the defensive and solidifies their position (i find).

????

It's more being in an environment where many people think they have the correct answer for everyone, and I am still exploring all of the possibilities, because all the "correct answers" appear to be incorrect.

 

[Confused-by-christianity]

It's more being in an environment where many people think they have the correct answer for everyone, and I am still exploring all of the possibilities, because all the "correct answers" appear to be incorrect.

Are you ever able to identify what makes the answer "incorrect".??

 

[Gregory Thompson]

Are you ever able to identify what makes the answer "incorrect".??

It's fairly easy.

If a theology contradicts scripture it is incorrect.

if a theology uses scripture to prove something, but disregards scripture, it is incorrect.

if a theology pits scripture A vs Scripture B it is incorrect, and tends to lead to one of the classic heresies.

if a theology says nothing changed when Jesus died on the Cross, then it is incorrect.

if a theology when applied results in fruit that is the opposite of what is explained in scripture as "the right fruit" .. then the theology is incorrect.

if a theology results in idolizing the theology or the bible, it is incorrect.

if a theology contradicts God when He is speaking directly in scripture, they need to read the bible again.

 

[Mountainmike]

It's fairly easy.

If a theology contradicts scripture it is incorrect.

if a theology uses scripture to prove something, but disregards scripture, it is incorrect.

if a theology pits scripture A vs Scripture B it is incorrect, and tends to lead to one of the classic heresies.

if a theology says nothing changed when Jesus died on the Cross, then it is incorrect.

if a theology when applied results in fruit that is the opposite of what is explained in scripture as "the right fruit" .. then the theology is incorrect.

if a theology results in idolizing the theology or the bible, it is incorrect.

if a theology contradicts God when He is speaking directly in scripture, they need to read the bible again.

If only it were that easy.
The problem is not what scripture says , it is determining what scripture means.
And if that were obvious all would agree , and they certainly don’t.

Someone Stating it “ contradicts “ scripture ,generally means it contradicts their opinion of what it means.
So The real question is how disputes are resolved.

 

[Gregory Thompson]

If only it were that easy.
The problem is not what scripture says , it is determining what scripture means.
And if that were obvious all would agree , and they certainly don’t.

Someone Stating it “ contradicts “ scripture ,generally means it contradicts their opinion of what it means.
So The real question is how disputes are resolved.

Not so much.

Because the church has replaced the role of the Holy Spirit with the bible, we have a babel situation all over again. It's like the blessing of pentecost is being reversed.

 

[.Mikha'el.]

...tired of debate, tired of defending and critiquing.

Maybe it is time to practice a poverty of opinion.

There is always a good chance that I am misinformed, mistaken and in the wrong about most everything.

Mea culpa

If your goal in debating someone is to bring your opponent around to your position, please stop. It never happens in a debate regardless of the topic being debated.

 

[SavedByGrace3]

...tired of debate, tired of defending and critiquing.

Maybe it is time to practice a poverty of opinion.

There is always a good chance that I am misinformed, mistaken and in the wrong about most everything.

Mea culpa

I agree. I have followed many WOF teachings for 50 years. I have become weary of having people accuse me and demand I defend things I simply have never believed, justified, or, in some cases, even heard of. People who love you will know. People want to accuse... well: nuff said.

 

[SavedByGrace3]

If your goal in debating someone is to bring your opponent around to your position, please stop. It never happens in a debate regardless of the topic being debated.

In many cases, people are not defending their position; they are defending themselves. IOWs, they cannot separate themselves from the issue and so feel the need for self-defense. Those who are attacking are doing so from a personal need to dominate and control, so the issue does not really matter to them; rather, it is their power over you that is important.
I just refuse to argue with these... they are taking it personally.

 

[SavedByGrace3]

If your goal in debating someone is to bring your opponent around to your position, please stop. It never happens in a debate regardless of the topic being debated.

Also, I have been in online discussions since the early 90s. The old AOL and Prodigy boards. In all that time, over 30 years, I cannot remember a single instance of anyone saying that they were wrong and so changed their position. I do not think that is how changing your mind works. I know I used to believe in the pre-trib rapture thing. I was saved reading material by Jack Chick, Clarence Larken, and FInis Dake.. all proponents of the theory. I first became suspicious when I simply found no contextual evidence in the scripture. I looked at if it for a couple of years, questioning and looking for actual justification for the teaching. I finally read some "controversial" (at least for evangelicals) material that detailed the errors and presented the truth.
My point is that it took time and a willingness to question. I think the scripture calls it being noble, like the Bereans.

Acts 17:10-12 KJV
10 And the brethren immediately sent away Paul and Silas by night unto Berea: who coming thither went into the synagogue of the Jews.
11 These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.
12 Therefore many of them believed; also of honourable women which were Greeks, and of men, not a few.

 

[Rajni]

I think the other thing is that 90% of the discussions are simply the same dead horse that has been beat to a pulp.

Yes! I was recently handed a metaphorical club to beat a dead horse I had walked away from a long, long time ago. I engaged just long enough to highlight the fact that the issue raised was already addressed by me back then and left as quickly as I came.

I used to be able to argue the paint off the wall; line for line, tit for tat. Especially here on CF.

Nowadays, if I see someone is "wrong" on the internet, I just don't have the strength to get into it with them. It's just too much typing. Plus, I'm at that age in life where the biochemical landscape is changing once again, and I just can't even right now. I have to be very selective about where I direct my energies.

 

[Laodicean60]

...tired of debate, tired of defending and critiquing.

Maybe it is time to practice a poverty of opinion.

There is always a good chance that I am misinformed, mistaken and in the wrong about most everything.

Mea culpa

I feel you man! I had a few miracles happen about twelve years ago and I became an excited Christian. Then I wondered why those miracles weren't happening more so I joined a forum. Once I gave my story I was shocked at how unloving, judgemental, and arrogant my brothers and sister were. I got called WoF and Charismatic and lol I didn't know what that was. I was bible bashed.... Then I started to debate, the negative thoughts and anger and all the other feelings you feel while trying to defend yourself. I know if Jesus was standing next to any of us he would have given us slaps upside our heads and said "What are you doing? Shouldn't you be out loving your neighbor?" I came to this forum and the same thing is going on. Peace

 

[Akita Suggagaki]

I feel you man! I had a few miracles happen about twelve years ago and I became an excited Christian. Then I wondered why those miracles weren't happening more so I joined a forum. Once I gave my story I was shocked at how unloving, judgemental, and arrogant my brothers and sister were. I got called WoF and Charismatic and lol I didn't know what that was. I was bible bashed.... Then I started to debate, the negative thoughts and anger and all the other feelings you feel while trying to defend yourself. I know if Jesus was standing next to any of us he would have given us slaps upside our heads and said "What are you doing? Shouldn't you be out loving your neighbor?" I came to this forum and the same thing is going on. Peace

I have been reading more serious history about St Francis of Assisi. That is, not the legendary stuff but closer to reality. I mean how was it that people came to love and even follow a guy who looked like a bum? He was a powerful preacher. But not because he argued well or was good at "making his case". Rather, he was able to touch people, to move people. I would like to be more concerned with that.

 

[Akita Suggagaki]

I have to be very selective about where I direct my energies.

Good for you to realize that. And it is a realization we all would do well to have.