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One is saved before they believe and trust, they have to be born again in order to believe the Gospel. See believing and trusting is an evidence of ones saved state. Christ saved them !
Action/works which follow saving faith in Christ are the evidence of our "trust/faith" and not the origin of it. Faith is the root of salvation and action/works which follow are the fruit. No fruit at all would demonstrate there is no root.
In regard to "faith without works is dead" in James 2:20, James does not mean that faith is dead until it produces works and then it becomes a living faith or that works are the source of life. That would be like saying that a tree is dead until it produces fruit and then it becomes a living tree, and the fruit is the source of life in the tree. James is simply saying faith that is not accompanied by evidential works demonstrates that it's dead. If someone merely says-claims they have faith, but lack resulting evidential works, then they demonstrate that they have an empty profession of faith/dead faith and not authentic faith. (James 2:14) James is also not saying that we are saved by works in contradiction to (Romans 3:24-28; 4:2-6; 11:6; Ephesians 2:8,9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9 etc..).
We have been through this all before, and you still are speaking the same old falsehoods.
Not all actions/works are the fruit of salvation. Rom 10:9-10 is very clear that the physical action of confessing Jesus as Lord with the mouth leads to/results in receiving salvation. This is NOT a fruit of salvation, but is an action that brings about the reception of salvation. And there are others besides.
Does a body exist without a soul? Yes. But without a soul that body is dead. It has no life within it. One may say he has faith, but if he produces no action then that faith is dead. And like an aqueduct with a hole in it which cannot bring water to its destination, faith without action cannot bring salvation to the recipient (Eph 2:8-9). Faith is the aqueduct that brings salvation from God to us. And if it is dead it cannot carry God's grace to us.
It does not contradict those passages to say that we must take actions in order to receive salvation. Those passages tell us that we cannot EARN salvation through our actions, but they do not say that no action is necessary. If they did, that would contradict Rom 10:9-10, Acts 2:38, 1 Pet 3:21, etc.
You are putting the cart instead of the horse. Eph 2 does not say that there are no actions necessary to receive salvation. It says that those actions that are necessary do not EARN salvation. This is again expressed in Luke 17:7-10 which tells us that even when we as servants do what our master commands us, we do not deserve praise, or special consideration, or anything else. We are still unprofitable servants who have simply done what our master has commanded. Did dipping in Jordan EARN cleansing for Naaman? No. But he would not have been cleansed if he had not first done what was commanded. The same applies to the Israelites marching round Jericho, the widow giving her last cake to the prophet, the woman gathering all the jars she could find and pouring the oil as the prophet commanded, etc. There is no blessing received without obedience to the commands of God that He says lead to/result in receiving His gift.
Yes, that is true. And they both must come BEFORE salvation is received. They are both actions that man must take that RESULT IN receiving salvation.
That is not what is being said at all. You must believe AND confess Jesus as Lord AND get baptized in order to receive salvation. The point of referencing Rom 10:9-10 is that it clearly puts the physical action of confessing Jesus as Lord "with the mouth" BEFORE salvation is received.
The Holy Spirit can, and does, work on people to help them believe and confess Jesus BEFORE THEY ARE SAVED. His actions in our lives do not begin with His indwelling us. He is constantly at work on our lives. A good example of this is Saul. When he encountered Jesus on the road to Damascus he was not saved there on the road. Yes, he believed that it really was the slain Jesus speaking to him. And yes, he accepted that Jesus was God speaking to him from Heaven there on the Road. But three days later when Ananias came to cure his blindness and speak the words of God to him, he was STILL IN SIN (Acts 22:16). If he had been saved on the road, then he would not have still been in sin three days later, but he was. The Holy Spirit was probably working on him over those three days, bringing to him memory all the OT Scriptures that pointed to the Christ and how Jesus fulfilled them all. But Saul was not saved and cleansed of sin until Ananias baptized him and washed away his sins.
Oh, the irony.
To make actions/works the soul of faith is to make actions/works the very essence of faith which erroneously culminates in salvation by works. Works are the fruit, by product and demonstrative evidence of faith, but not the essence of faith and also not the basis or means by which we obtain salvation. In James 2:26, the comparison of the human spirit and faith converge around their modes of operation. The spirit (Greek pneuma) may also be translated "breath." As a breathless body exhibits no indication of life, so fruitless faith exhibits no indication of life. The source of the life in faith is not works; rather, life in faith is the source of works. (Ephesians 2:5-10)
Some actions/works/bad fruit is produced by unbelievers out of moral-self reformation rather than from a regenerate heart. In Matthew 7:17-20, Jesus said - Even so, every good tree (represents believers) bears good fruit, (represents good works) but a bad tree (represents unbelievers) bears bad fruit (bad works that are still stained with sin). A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a bad tree bear good fruit. Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. Therefore, by their fruits you will know them.
Once again, confessing with our mouth that Jesus is Lord and believing in our heart that God raised Him from the dead are not two separate steps to salvation but are chronologically together. Be sure to go back and thoroughly read post #102 again from and unbiased perspective.
This remains your Achilles heel. In James 2:26, the comparison of the human spirit and faith converge around their modes of operation. The spirit (Greek pneuma) may also be translated "breath." As a breathless body exhibits no indication of life, so fruitless faith exhibits no indication of life. The source of the life in faith is not works; rather, life in faith is the source of works. (Ephesians 2:5-10) Bodies which don't breathe are dead. In the same way a so-called "faith" (bare profession of faith) whether in the form of religion, intellectual knowledge or moral self-reformation (apart from regeneration) that is not accompanied by good works is not a living faith. It's dead. The spiritual implications are clear. A faith that produces no works demonstrates that it's dead and is not saving faith.
Sugar coated double talk. Actions follow salvation. (Ephesians 2:8-10)
No contradiction here. You need to learn how to properly harmonize scripture with scripture before reaching your conclusion on doctrine. No scripture is to be interpreted in isolation from the totality of scripture. Practically speaking, a singular and obscure verse is to be subservient to multiple and clear verses, and not vice versa.
More sugar-coated double talk. If those actions/works which follow saving faith in Christ are necessary for salvation, then salvation would be earned (at least in part) and that really tickles the ears and feeds the pride of man. Christ saves us through faith based on the merits of His finished work of redemption alone and not based on the merits of our works.
This humble attitude has nothing to do with receiving salvation based on unmerited works.
These were blessings received here and not the gift of eternal life, which is only received by grace through faith. (Ephesians 2:8,9)
Your misunderstanding culminates in salvation by works.
Your eisegesis is the result of bad semantics and flawed hermeneutics. Go back and thoroughly read post #102 again. Water baptism "follows" believing in Jesus unto salvation. (Acts 10:43-47)
Excellent article on Acts 22:16 - Acts 22:16--Baptism Essential for Salvation?
No irony, just truth.Oh, the irony.
Only in your mind. Works do not earn salvation, but they are required to receive it.
Not all works are fruit or by product of faith; many are, but not all. There are some that are the instigator of it.
No, Dan, it does not revolve around the "modes of operation". When God created man, the body He fashioned from the dirt was without life. And God breathed into that body the "breath of life" (or a soul), and that body became a living being. Just the same, you may say you have faith, but that is an empty shell until it has the soul of faith (works/actions) that give it life.
This is completely true, and completely off subject. It is simply a strawman that has nothing to do with the topic at hand. As I said, and Scripture makes clear, not all works of faith are the fruit of salvation. There are three actions that we must take that lead to/result in receiving salvation.
Another strawman. Of course they should come together chronologically together. But the point is that they BOTH MUST precede the reception of salvation, because confession RESULTS IN receiving salvation.
Not all action does, Dan. Repentance (Acts 3:19), confession of Jesus as Lord (Rom 10:9-10), and baptism (whole list of verses already posted) all must come before salvation is received, because all of them LEAD TO/RESULT IN receiving salvation according to Scripture.
I completely agree. But the passages that tell us that repentance, confession, and baptism are essential to receive salvation are not obscure, in isolation, or unclear. On the contrary, they are very specific that salvation results from doing these actions. It is the passages that only mention "belief" or "faith" that are lacking detail.
And you completely ignore the fact that both belief AND confession of Jesus are required BEFORE salvation is received. Yes, they are chronologically together BEFORE salvation, because they both result in salvation being received. This makes them both prerequisites for receiving God's gift of salvation. You ignore this fact because it does not fit with your preconception of how salvation is received.
You are completely correct, but this all still happens DURING the event of water baptism. Yes, it is a completely spiritual cleansing. But it still happens when one is plunged beneath the water in baptism.
And it is just the opposite with baptism. Only the ones who are baptized will be saved through their faith.
Grammatically, in both Greek and in English, it is impossible to separate "you all repent" and "each one of you be baptized" from each other and their united connection to "for the remission of sins". Both of those phrases relate to "for the remission of sins" in exactly the same way. There is nothing there that would suggest that "you all repent" in order to receive forgiveness, but then "each one of you be baptized" because you have already been forgiven. Any Greek or English teacher would beat you over the head for even suggesting that kind of stupidity. Both "repent" and "be baptized" are "in order to receive forgiveness of sins".
There is no parenthesis, not even one suggested or hinted at.
The Gentiles in Acts 10 received the miraculous empowerment of the Spirit, just as the Jews did on Pentecost. The Jews already had the indwelling of the Spirit (John 20:22). The only thing they received on Pentecost was miraculous empowerment (tongues and praise) of the Spirit after they were saved. This is the same thing that the Gentiles received (tongues and praise) before they were saved. The phrase "received the Holy Spirit" most often refers to miraculous empowerment, not the indwelling of the Spirit.
In Acts 16:31, Paul told them to believe in Jesus, and then he went on to teach them about Jesus (including about the necessity of water baptism) as it is recorded in Acts 16:32.
No, that is very much discord in Scripture. You are explaining away, ignoring, or reinterpreting many Scriptures in order to justify your "perfect harmony", but it just doesn't work. There is only one way to enter into the Kingdom of God, and that is through both the Spirit AND water (John 3:5). You want to accept the Spirit but ignore the water. But the water is just as essential as the Spirit, for it is in the water that the Spirit takes action (Rom 6:1-7, Col 2:11-14).
No, it does not even begin to earn salvation. Our salvation was bought with the price of the life-blood of God (Jesus). Are you saying that you price His blood at the cost of being pushed under water for a couple of seconds? That is a very cheep price you put on His life, to say that it comes even remotely close to earning His gift. That is what I would call poison-coated blasphemy.
Absolutely correct. But you try to make "faith" a mental only concept. According to you, all it requires is an intellectual assent to the truth of the Gospel (which the demons share) and salvation is received. But that is NOT what Scripture says. Faith is not mental only. Faith requires action or it is dead, useless, and ineffective at bringing us salvation from God (James 2:14-26).
Again, you misinterpret Eph 2:8-9. It does not say that there is no action necessary to receive salvation. It says that there is no action that earns salvation, and there is a big difference between the two.
1 John 5:11-13
Salvation by faith + works is not the truth no matter how much you try to sugar coat it.
OXYMORON.
You turn everything into works. Yes, it does.
You continue to miss the point that James is making. Again, the comparison of the human spirit and faith converge around their modes of operation. The spirit (Greek pneuma) may also be translated "breath." As a breathless body exhibits no indication of life, so fruitless faith exhibits no indication of life. The source of the life in faith is not works; rather, life in faith is the source of works. (Ephesians 2:5-10) According to your logic, fruit grows on a dead tree in order to give the tree life. You have it backwards. The source of life flows through the root of the tree and produces fruit just as the source of life in faith produces works. You have the tail wagging the dog. The cart before the horse.
It was not off topic, or a strawman and you completely missed another great point.
So, you admit they are chronologically together? Progress!
Remember, the word of faith is in our mouth and in our heart TOGETHER. (Romans 10:8) That is the key to understanding Romans 10:9,10. According to your 4-step plan of salvation, water baptism comes AFTER confession and you teach that we are not saved until after baptism, which negates Romans 10:9,10.Repentance is a change of mind and the new direction of that change of mind is faith in Jesus Christ for salvation. (Acts 20:21) Two sides to the same coin. Confession of Jesus as Lord and believing in our heart that God raised Him from the dead are not two separate steps to salvation but are chronologically together. (Romans 10:8-10) Water baptism "follows" salvation through belief/faith. (Acts 10:43-47)
Your continued confusion in regard to repentance, confession and baptism is the result of bad semantics and flawed hermeneutics.
I did not ignore the truth found in Romans 10:8-10 at all.
Again, not two separate steps to salvation but chronologically together. You ignore the truth found in Romans 10:8-10 and end up turning confession into a work for salvation separate from believing unto righteousness, (see Romans 4:5-6) which fits your preconceived beliefs of how salvation is received. Church indoctrination may play a major role in that.
False. Spiritual cleansing is signified but not procured in water baptism.
False. That's not saved through faith but saved through faith + baptism. Those who trust in works for salvation have not placed their faith in Jesus Christ alone for salvation.
Stupidity? Please calm down and don't make this personal. I often hear water-salvationists make your same argument about grammar in regard to their pet verse, Acts 2:38. Let's see what Greek grammarian scholars think about it.
I already proved otherwise in post #104. So once again, the only logical conclusion when properly harmonizing scripture with scripture is that faith in Jesus Christ "implied in genuine repentance" (rather than water baptism) brings the remission of sins and the gift of the Holy Spirit (Luke 24:47; Acts 2:38; 3:19; 5:31; 10:43-47; 11:17,18; 15:7-9; 16:31; 26:18). *Perfect Harmony*
Absolutely false. You blatantly deny the truth that these Gentiles received the gift of the Holy Spirit in Acts 10:45, also confirmed in Acts 11:17,18 and Acts 15:7-9. In addition to receiving the gift of the Holy Spirit, they also received the spiritual gift of tongues which confirmed to the Jews that God has accepted these Gentiles as well. To deny this crystal-clear truth is to be dishonest.
Water baptism "followed" believing on the Lord Jesus Christ and being saved. If water baptism was necessary for salvation, then Paul would have added it to believing on the Lord Jesus Christ in Acts 16:31 and numerous other passages of scripture which only mention belief/faith in connection with receiving salvation. (John 3:15,16,18; 6:40,47; 11:25,26; Acts 10:43; 13:39; 26:18; Romans 1:16; 3:24-28; 4:5-6; 5:1; Ephesians 2:8 etc..).
You are the master of irony.
I don't ignore the water at all and in John 3:5, Jesus said born of water and the Spirit. He did not say born of baptism and the Spirit and He also did not say unless one is water baptized, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. In the very next chapter, Jesus mentions "living water" in John 4:10, 14 and He connects living water with eternal life in John 4:14. Also, in John 7:38-39, we read - "He who believes in Me, as the Scripture has said, out of his heart will flow rivers of living water. But this He spoke concerning the Spirit. The Holy Spirit is the source of living water (which reaches the heart) and spiritual cleansing.
You are drinking the wrong water. (John 4:14; 1 Corinthians 12:13) In regard to Romans 6:3-4, as Greek scholar AT Robertson explains - Baptism is the public proclamation of one's inward spiritual relation to Christ attained before the baptism. See on "Galatians 3:27" where it is like putting on an outward garment or uniform. Into his death (ei ton qanaton autou). So here "unto his death," "in relation to his death," which relation Paul proceeds to explain by the symbolism of the ordinance. The picture in baptism points two ways, backwards to Christ's death and burial and to our death to sin, forward to Christ's resurrection from the dead and to our new life pledged by the coming out of the watery grave to walk on the other side of the baptismal grave. There is the further picture of our own resurrection from the grave. It is a tragedy that Paul's majestic picture here has been so blurred by controversy that some refuse to see it. It should be said also that a symbol is not the reality, but the picture of the reality.
Any works which follow salvation through faith that stand between us and receiving eternal life merit salvation by being the basis or means by which we were saved. Either we are saved by faith in Christ alone or else we are saved by faith + works. Either Jesus Christ did it all or else we did some of it. You can't have it both ways. Based on your doctrine, you are "adding" water baptism to Christ's finished work of redemption in order to help Christ save you, which renders Christ an IN-sufficient Savior. Talk about poison-coated blasphemy.
Wrong, and you try to make faith, works. I teach that faith involves trust and reliance, especially trust and reliance in Jesus Christ alone for salvation and not merely mental assent belief in Christ. The demons believe that Jesus Christ exists, is the Son of God and that His death, burial and resurrection of Christ "happened." That is "mental assent" belief, but the demons do not trust in Jesus Christ for salvation. Big difference!
Wrong, and once again, the demons believe that the death, burial and resurrection of Christ "happened" (mental assent) BUT they are not trusting in the death, burial and resurrection of Christ as the ALL-sufficient means of their salvation. See the big difference?
Say what?
What part of "and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God. Not of works lest any man should boast" do you not understand? You slice, and dice works in your efforts to "shoehorn" works "into" salvation through faith, not works, but the shoe does not fit. What a mess!
