How does a Calvinist KNOW they are elect?

[Catholic Dude]

I posted this on another thread but here it is again.

Here is the big question that I cant find an answer to.

Here is my line of thought:
If someone were to decide to be Calvinist they must at the same time assume they are elect. Why would someone subscribe to any religious view if they knew they were going to be on the losing end.
Also the way I have been told election works is that you dont have to be Calvinist to be one of the elect, so right here I would again assume nobody would take on that religious view unless they assumed they were elect.

So the question is If your a Calvinist, How do YOU KNOW that you are elect?

 

[Cajun Huguenot]

I posted this on another thread but here it is again.

Here is the big question that I cant find an answer to.

Here is my line of thought:
If someone were to decide to be Calvinist they must at the same time assume they are elect. Why would someone subscribe to any religious view if they knew they were going to be on the losing end.
Also the way I have been told election works is that you dont have to be Calvinist to be one of the elect, so right here I would again assume nobody would take on that religious view unless they assumed they were elect.

So the question is If your a Calvinist, How do YOU KNOW that you are elect?

Hello CD,

Let me see if I can answer your question.

I became a Calvinist after a couple of years of studying and discussing the subject of predestination. I already considered myself “born-again” then. The term “elect,” though I had read it in Scripture, was not one I had given much thought to.

If when you die you find yourself in heaven (since you are an RC I will say not in hell) than you were elect whether or not you knew or understood the term. The elect are all people who go to heaven.

How do I know I am elect? There is certainly a subjective element to it. I know that I know Jesus Christ as my Lord and Saviour. My life experience tells me that is so (according to my understanding of Scripture).

I am a Presbyterian (which makes me different from Baptist Calvinists on a number of points). As a Presbyterian I understand Baptism to be a Sacrament that has objectively placed me into the Church of Jesus Christ. I “remember” my baptism and make my salvation sure, through repentance, faith and obedience to Jesus Christ.

Baptism (in my case as an infant in the Roman Catholic Church) is an objective fact that places me in a true relationship with Jesus Christ. The Westminster Confession of Faith puts it this way “Baptism is a sacrament of the new testament, ordained by Jesus Christ, not only for the solemn admission of the party baptized into the visible Church; but also to be unto him a sign and seal of the covenant of grace, of his ingrafting into Christ, of regeneration, of remission of sins, and of his giving up unto God, through Jesus Christ, to walk in newness of life.”

We believe baptism to be effectual. Again the Confession says: The efficacy of Baptism is not tied to that moment of time wherein it is administered; yet, notwithstanding, by the right use of this ordinance, the grace promised is not only offered, but really exhibited, and conferred, by the Holy Ghost, to such (whether of age or infants) as that grace belongeth unto, according to the counsel of God's own will, in His appointed time.


Baptism doesn’t guarantee that all who baptised will persevere in the faith, some obviously do not, but it does unite us to Christ (covenantally speaking). We must respond by faith in Jesus Christ.

When I trust Christ It is not a one moment event” that then allows me to live a worldly life. Saving faith produces a godly lifestyle, because God’s Spirit is working in me to will and to do his good pleasure.

I have objective and subjective knowledge of my salvation. The objective knowledge about our Spiritual state is found all over the Scriptures, but it is most succinctly stated in 1 John.

And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments. (1 John 2:3)

By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments. (1 John 5:2)

Now the 5th point in the five points of Calvinism is – Perseverance of the Saints. Some folk today mistakenly see this as no different than what is known as “Once save always saved.” The two ideas are not the same. We believe that the elect must persevere in the faith. We do believe that all those who are predestined by god before the foundation of the world to eternal salvation will persevere.

I hope that helps. There are some important nuances in the doctrine of election that require a little thought to understand, but that is true of most biblical doctrines.


Dominus vobiscum,
Kenith

 

[Dale]

Catholic Dude in OP:
<< So the question is If your a Calvinist, How do YOU KNOW that you are elect? >>

They don't, it is an unjustified assumption.

 

[cristoiglesia]

Hello CD,

Let me see if I can answer your question.

I became a Calvinist after a couple of years of studying and discussing the subject of predestination. I already considered myself “born-again” then. The term “elect,” though I had read it in Scripture, was not one I had given much thought to.

If when you die you find yourself in heaven (since you are an RC I will say not in hell) than you were elect whether or not you knew or understood the term. The elect are all people who go to heaven.

How do I know I am elect? There is certainly a subjective element to it. I know that I know Jesus Christ as my Lord and Saviour. My life experience tells me that is so (according to my understanding of Scripture).

I am a Presbyterian (which makes me different from Baptist Calvinists on a number of points). As a Presbyterian I understand Baptism to be a Sacrament that has objectively placed me into the Church of Jesus Christ. I “remember” my baptism and make my salvation sure, through repentance, faith and obedience to Jesus Christ.

Baptism (in my case as an infant in the Roman Catholic Church) is an objective fact that places me in a true relationship with Jesus Christ. The Westminster Confession of Faith puts it this way “Baptism is a sacrament of the new testament, ordained by Jesus Christ, not only for the solemn admission of the party baptized into the visible Church; but also to be unto him a sign and seal of the covenant of grace, of his ingrafting into Christ, of regeneration, of remission of sins, and of his giving up unto God, through Jesus Christ, to walk in newness of life.”

We believe baptism to be effectual. Again the Confession says: The efficacy of Baptism is not tied to that moment of time wherein it is administered; yet, notwithstanding, by the right use of this ordinance, the grace promised is not only offered, but really exhibited, and conferred, by the Holy Ghost, to such (whether of age or infants) as that grace belongeth unto, according to the counsel of God's own will, in His appointed time.


Baptism doesn’t guarantee that all who baptised will persevere in the faith, some obviously do not, but it does unite us to Christ (covenantally speaking). We must respond by faith in Jesus Christ.

When I trust Christ It is not a one moment event” that then allows me to live a worldly life. Saving faith produces a godly lifestyle, because God’s Spirit is working in me to will and to do his good pleasure.

I have objective and subjective knowledge of my salvation. The objective knowledge about our Spiritual state is found all over the Scriptures, but it is most succinctly stated in 1 John.

And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments. (1 John 2:3)

By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments. (1 John 5:2)

Now the 5th point in the five points of Calvinism is – Perseverance of the Saints. Some folk today mistakenly see this as no different than what is known as “Once save always saved.” The two ideas are not the same. We believe that the elect must persevere in the faith. We do believe that all those who are predestined by god before the foundation of the world to eternal salvation will persevere.

I hope that helps. There are some important nuances in the doctrine of election that require a little thought to understand, but that is true of most biblical doctrines.


Dominus vobiscum,
Kenith

Thank you for explaining your version of Calvinism. The question still remains, how does one know that they are among the elect. You seem to say that one does not until they die. I believe the real question is, how does one know before they die. Calvinists tend to say , "I am saved" proclaiming both present and future states of their souls. Other Christians would say, " I am being saved" indicating a hopeful future reality. How do you see the different views as a Calvinist.

How can one tell if they are the elect or a reprobate? In Calvinist teaching there seems to be some kind of divine lottery which one either wins or loses. There is no hope for the reprobate and conversely there is no depravity severe enough to lose one's salvation for the elect. How does one justify this view of God which suggests that He does not have a just nature but one that condemns those he chose not to be blessed with hope.

In Christ
Fr. Joseph

 

[mlqurgw]

Thank you for explaining your version of Calvinism. The question still remains, how does one know that they are among the elect. You seem to say that one does not until they die. I believe the real question is, how does one know before they die. Calvinists tend to say , "I am saved" proclaiming both present and future states of their souls. Other Christians would say, " I am being saved" indicating a hopeful future reality. How do you see the different views as a Calvinist.

How can one tell if they are the elect or a reprobate? In Calvinist teaching there seems to be some kind of divine lottery which one either wins or loses. There is no hope for the reprobate and conversely there is no depravity severe enough to lose one's salvation for the elect. How does one justify this view of God which suggests that He does not have a just nature but one that condemns those he chose not to be blessed with hope.

In Christ
Fr. Joseph

I am a Baptist so I would disagree with some of the statements made earlier, but that is another discussion. I will try to give you what Paul says concerning the issue.

1Th 1:1 Paul, and Silvanus, and Timotheus, unto the church of the Thessalonians which is in God the Father and in the Lord Jesus Christ: Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ.

1Th 1:2 We give thanks to God always for you all, making mention of you in our prayers;

1Th 1:3 Remembering without ceasing your work of faith, and labour of love, and patience of hope in our Lord Jesus Christ, in the sight of God and our Father;

1Th 1:4 Knowing, brethren beloved, your election of God.

Paul says here that he knows they are elect and proceeds to give the reason he knows.

1Th 1:5 For our gospel came not unto you in word only, but also in power, and in the Holy Ghost, and in much assurance; as ye know what manner of men we were among you for your sake.

His first reason.

1Th 1:6 And ye became followers of us, and of the Lord, having received the word in much affliction, with joy of the Holy Ghost:

His second.

1Th 1:7 So that ye were ensamples to all that believe in Macedonia and Achaia.

His third.

1Th 1:8 For from you sounded out the word of the Lord not only in Macedonia and Achaia, but also in every place your faith to God-ward is spread abroad; so that we need not to speak any thing.

His fourth.


1Th 1:9 For they themselves shew of us what manner of entering in we had unto you, and how ye turned to God from idols to serve the living and true God;

His fifth.

1Th 1:10 And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.

His sixth.


It is reasonable to believe that those who fit his description are elect.

 

[cristoiglesia]

I am a Baptist so I would disagree with some of the statements made earlier, but that is another discussion. I will try to give you what Paul says concerning the issue.

1Th 1:1 Paul, and Silvanus, and Timotheus, unto the church of the Thessalonians which is in God the Father and in the Lord Jesus Christ: Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ.

1Th 1:2 We give thanks to God always for you all, making mention of you in our prayers;

1Th 1:3 Remembering without ceasing your work of faith, and labour of love, and patience of hope in our Lord Jesus Christ, in the sight of God and our Father;

1Th 1:4 Knowing, brethren beloved, your election of God.

Paul says here that he knows they are elect and proceeds to give the reason he knows.

1Th 1:5 For our gospel came not unto you in word only, but also in power, and in the Holy Ghost, and in much assurance; as ye know what manner of men we were among you for your sake.

His first reason.

1Th 1:6 And ye became followers of us, and of the Lord, having received the word in much affliction, with joy of the Holy Ghost:

His second.

1Th 1:7 So that ye were ensamples to all that believe in Macedonia and Achaia.

His third.

1Th 1:8 For from you sounded out the word of the Lord not only in Macedonia and Achaia, but also in every place your faith to God-ward is spread abroad; so that we need not to speak any thing.

His fourth.


1Th 1:9 For they themselves shew of us what manner of entering in we had unto you, and how ye turned to God from idols to serve the living and true God;

His fifth.

1Th 1:10 And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.

His sixth.


It is reasonable to believe that those who fit his description are elect.

I see, but I am afraid you have confused me even more. Most of the Baptists I hear from or talk to do not believe that Christians receive the sign gifts of the Spirit. They believe that they were for a different time. Yet St. Paul indicates that this is a sign. Are you saying that all signs are not necessary but at least one of these signs are to indicate being among the elect. Having an MA from a Baptist seminary, I know there is much more to this philosophy of Calvin adopted by Baptists. I also know there are numerous Baptist beliefs in regards to who are the elect and how one knows.

Could you also show your interpretation or exegesis of these Scriptures so that we can better understand what you believe.

In Christ

Fr. Joseph

 

[FearAndTrembeling]

I posted this in a different thread but felt it also necessary to post it here.

Once God has given us the faith to believe in the Lord Jesus Christ, we become children of God. Again, our adoption by God has nothing to do with what we have done. Rather, it was God’s good pleasure to stipulate in His will that we would be adopted. Thus, we read in Ephesians 1:5, "Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will."
But how do we know that we have become a child of God. Romans 8:15,16 answers: "For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba Father. The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God."
We know by the fact that we have received the indwelling Holy Spirit and somehow, He testifies to our spirit that we have been adopted by God. And by the Holy Spirit, we cry to God, "Abba Father," Abba being the intimate Aramaic word for Father.

Read more: http://www.familyradio.com/graphical/literature/frame/ "Exposition of Galations"

 

[DeaconDean]

Here is a link with some of the best articles dealing with the "elect" and "election." It is real lengthy and would require a person to read and study the material BEFORE they come to any conclusion. Please give it a look. http://www.monergism.com/thethreshold/articles/topic/election.html

 

[cristoiglesia]

I posted this in a different thread but felt it also necessary to post it here.

Once God has given us the faith to believe in the Lord Jesus Christ, we become children of God. Again, our adoption by God has nothing to do with what we have done. Rather, it was God’s good pleasure to stipulate in His will that we would be adopted. Thus, we read in Ephesians 1:5, "Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will."
But how do we know that we have become a child of God. Romans 8:15,16 answers: "For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba Father. The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God."
We know by the fact that we have received the indwelling Holy Spirit and somehow, He testifies to our spirit that we have been adopted by God. And by the Holy Spirit, we cry to God, "Abba Father," Abba being the intimate Aramaic word for Father.

Read more: http://www.familyradio.com/graphical/literature/frame/ "Exposition of Galations"

Let me see if I know what you are saying here with your post...

God gives us faith.....When? How? Why?

We are adopted by God, because it is his will.... Why would it not be his will?

We receive the indwelling Holy Spirit.....When?

This Spirit tells our spirit that we are among the elect. Is this an intuitive thing or in the form of revelation?

Perhaps you can answer some of he questions that your post created.

In Christ
Fr. Joseph

 

[cristoiglesia]

Here is a link with some of the best articles dealing with the "elect" and "election." It is real lengthy and would require a person to read and study the material BEFORE they come to any conclusion. Please give it a look. http://www.monergism.com/thethreshold/articles/topic/election.html

Can you give me any explanation of Calvinist view of election that does not cast God as being unjust. For what reason would God create someone for destruction? This all seems to just be fuel for maltheists to support their views and they certainly are not encourageing for mankind or for those who labor to evangelize the world. It seems to me that Calvin must have gotten something wrong because his theory is not reasonable according to Biblical teaching. It asks us to ignore Scripture in order to accept these theories and suggests that there is inconsistencies in Biblical teaching that can not be reconciled with Calvin's views. How can this be?

In Christ
Fr. Joseph

 

[Pac Shady]

I'm not a Calvinist, and I don't follow predestination theory (my theory states that God, who is all-knowing, KNOWS who will choose Him and who won't but this is different from predestination in that WE choose God, not God choosing who will be saved, although He DOES choose WHEN we can come to Him). But I do have a friend who is a Calvinist, who has explained to me the doctrines, and I'll try to give an answer based on what I know from him.

The Elect can only choose God because they are elect, God has given them the grace to choose Him. If they are not elect, God does not give them the grace to choose Him, and because of Total Depravity they will always choose to reject God unless He gives them the grace to choose Him. So to become a Calvinist Christian, they would be able to choose God's will, which therefore assumes they have the grace given to them for that purpose. Since they can't receive that grace other than being elect, they can assume that they ARE in fact elect and therefore saved.

I THINK that's how it goes anyways. I'm not a Calvinist so please don't take me as an expert, and if any Calvinists feel this is wrong then please correct me

God Bless

'Shady

 

[DeaconDean]

Can you give me any explanation of Calvinist view of election that does not cast God as being unjust.

Personally friend, I would NEVER call God unjust in anything He does! And it is also evident that you did not look at or take the time to study the material, what a pity, you really miss out on a blessing here.

 

[FearAndTrembeling]

Our debt to each other is love, our debt is over our heads, and beyond our depths what are we to do, but to praise God, and to witness the truth as He gives it to us. He is the God of all. I have done nothing to "make God happy with me" But He has had mercy and has guided me by His Word, I seek because that is what I know how to do, I listen because I must listen, I yearn because there is nothng else I want, but I wait upon God - at least I try to, and if I don't I pray that I am corrected.

Lamentations 3:24-29 24 The LORD is my portion, saith my soul; therefore will I hope in him. 25 The LORD is good unto them that wait for him, to the soul that seeketh him. 26 It is good that a man should both hope and quietly wait for the salvation of the LORD. 27 It is good for a man that he bear the yoke of his youth. 28 He sitteth alone and keepeth silence, because he hath borne it upon him. 29 He putteth his mouth in the dust; if so be there may be hope.

 

[theend0218]

As you can see, different explanations can be given, none of which will really satisfy someone who sees "Calvinism" as a false teaching.

Augustine had an interesting perspective, I think, in this regard. He did teach a "double-presdestination." He could also define the "Church" as "the predestined of God." However, he also believed in the Church as it existed on earth, as to its mission and as a means of grace. These two beliefs do not seem to go together. I do not think the RCC has ever found a way to embrace both of his views together, equally.

Calvinism may be seen in this light. On the one hand, "God knows those who are His." God alone knows those He has embraced in Christ from the foundation of the world. On the other hand, "all who name the name of Christ must flee from iniquity."

There is a sense in which Calvin understood regeneration as a restoration of the image of Christ in those whom God has called to Himself, and whom He has united to Christ through the gift of the Holy Spirit. If one has been called and united to Christ, then this will be manifest in life. How can one say "I am elect" but show no evidence of God's work? How can one maintain through life a belief that I belong to God but give no evidence of it? Calvinism, if understood, did not give anyone assurance of their individual, personal election beyond an assurance that may come through union with Christ through the Holy Spirit. No one could do that. However, God can give assuarance to those who are seek to live in and for Christ as is done in Scripture. Assurance is not necessary for salvation. All of those who seek Christ are warned against falling away, and all are told to take heed if they think they stand lest they fall. All are warned to see if they indeed are in Christ. God, in Scripture, does this plainly by pointing to His work in those who are being saved. I John is one letter that seems to point to a path that leads to a hope or belief in eternal life, an assurance, if you will, or at least that points to a faith in one's standing in Christ. Most letters in the NT deal with this issue in one way or another. Calvinism follows this tradition.

For Augustine, one could find a basis for hope only by being in the Church. To reject the means of God's grace certainly would not give one assurance of belonging to God. For Calvin, the Church and the means of grace are understood a bit differently. For Calvinists today, it is not that different, but Church traditions do vary. Some stress the covenant relationship; some stress the "conversion" aspect; some stress the consistent "signs" of God's grace in how one lives and fellowships with Christ and His people; some may place the stress on other aspects.

The Separatist Puritans are an interesting example of how this could be worked out. They believed that one had no right to believe in salvation for oneself if they did not show the results of God's work in their life. This might include faithfulness to the Church, to prayer, to righteous living, to a sense of God's presence in their life, etc. Some, wrongly no doubt, even stressed the outward blessings of God - success in their labor, financial blessing, etc. Most of them would have stressed faith in Christ as the means of God's salvation.

How can a Calvinist know for certain they are one of God's elect? They really can't, anymore than a Catholic can know they will be finally saved. They can believe they know how God manifests His grace in one's life and believe that they see evidence of it in their lives. They can even believe that because they have faith in Christ that they do have hope of eternal life and thus feel assured. I suspect this is not much different than other faiths. They believe that if they now believe in Christ as God's gift of grace leading to eternal life God will continue to guard and guide them to the end knowing that this is how God promises to work in the lives of His people. As Paul said, all who are led by the Spirit are the children of God.

This may not speak for all Calvinists everywhere, but I think it is a fair understanding of the Calvinist tradition.

What I do think all Calvinist believe, if they understand the foundation of their tradition, is that no one can believe they are one of God's children if they reject Christ, live in open rebellion against God, continue to live in sin without repentance, etc. To say that a Calvinist would believe he or she could do whatever they want in defiance of God's revealed will and still have a right to believe they are one of God's elect is a misunderstanding of what Calvin taught.

 

[oworm]

So the question is If your a Calvinist, How do YOU KNOW that you are elect?

The answer is very simple: The indwelling Spirit of God testifies with my spirit that I am a child of God (Rom 8:16) I don't need to be a Calvinist to know im Gods child! I just need to know my bible!

 

[NewToLife]

It seems that the problem with this line that some Calvinists take that it is possible to know you are elect is that every now and then someone who says such things permanently falls away and we are basically asked to accept that they were not elect in the first place, yet clearly they believed they were.

So, if it is possible to believe yourself elect but be incorrect as in these cases, how then can one ever know if his belief that he is elect is correct or not?

 

[Cajun Huguenot]

It seems that the problem with this line that some Calvinists take that it is possible to know you are elect is that every now and then someone who says such things permanently falls away and we are basically asked to accept that they were not elect in the first place, yet clearly they believed they were.

So, if it is possible to believe yourself elect but be incorrect as in these cases, how then can one ever know if his belief that he is elect is correct or not?

Thanks for the comment. I tried to address that. We can have assurance in our baptism, faith and a life that desirers to serve God, but we must persevere. As long as I am doing living in this manner than I should have assurance (put I must also avoid presumption.

I believe the Scriptures gives many reasons for assurance, which are to be a comfort to the believer. It also gives many warnings so that we avoid presumption and false assurance (which can come from the OSAS position). We have to hold a balance between the two extremes of no assurance and presumption.

In Christ,
Kenith

 

[Cajun Huguenot]

Thank you for explaining your version of Calvinism. The question still remains, how does one know that they are among the elect. You seem to say that one does not until they die. I believe the real question is, how does one know before they die. Calvinists tend to say , "I am saved" proclaiming both present and future states of their souls. Other Christians would say, " I am being saved" indicating a hopeful future reality. How do you see the different views as a Calvinist.

How can one tell if they are the elect or a reprobate? In Calvinist teaching there seems to be some kind of divine lottery which one either wins or loses. There is no hope for the reprobate and conversely there is no depravity severe enough to lose one's salvation for the elect. How does one justify this view of God which suggests that He does not have a just nature but one that condemns those he chose not to be blessed with hope.

In Christ
Fr. Joseph

If you read John Calvin *(and other Reformed Theologians) you will find that he took the warnings in Scripture against apostasy very seriously.

I believe I am saved (objective reality as mentioned above and subjective experiance), I am being saved and I will be saved on the last day.

In many Calvinists circles today you find that they have in fact (though not in word) replaced "perseverence" with "OSAS" there is an important difference that some/many fail to recognise today. Many Calvinst have Baptist ideas that have replaced the Calvin?Augustine understanding of these things.

We should have assurance of our salvation because of the objective proofs in Scripture -- but if we allow that assurance to become presumption then we are in grave danger.

I think it is wrong to cut off all assurance to the believer and to give a presumptive assurance. There are always two ditches and we need to try and avoid both.

 

[Egghead]

I am a Presbyterian (which makes me different from Baptist Calvinists on a number of points).

which brings up another point.
If there is so much disagreeing amoung calvinists, why on earth would we assume that calvinism holds the truth?

Sound just like any other group separating itself from its brethren to me.

 

[Egghead]

We should have assurance of our salvation because of the objective proofs in Scripture -- but if we allow that assurance to become presumption then we are in grave danger.

This is double-talk.

If you are assured of salvation, then there is NO grave danger, is there?

Either you are elect and going, with or without extra reward, or you are not of the elect and are hellbound.

There is no grave danger to the elect.