How do you explain these verses if we are in Heaven at death?

[PROPHECYKID]

Happy to!

Numbers 23:10
Judges 16:30

Let my nephesh (soul) die....

Great! You are here. I know this is one of your favorite subjects so do your do.

 

[OrthodoxyUSA]

Doctrine in all the bible is the same OT or NT. There is no Jewish and christian way.

So... you believe that there has been no change?

Hbr 7:12 For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law.

Forgive me...

 

[Stryder06]

Ah but the soul doesn't come from the dust.

Indeed. The "soul" doesn't come from anywhere. Show me scripture that explains where the soul comes from and I'll digress.

Man is a living soul. He did not receive a living soul.

 

[Stryder06]

I see... so you're ok?

And the rest of Christianity is not?

Forgive me...

This isn't about being "ok". And just because the majority holds to something it doesn't make it right. The history of Israel attests to this fact, and for quite a while they were under a theocracy.

 

[Stryder06]

Okay, I can go with that. Can you agree, then, that Genesis 1 does not address the triple nature of man, which is elucidated later, especially in the NT?

No because there was nothing to elucidate (i like that word ).

Exactly! Thus, when Adam became a living being, that is exactly what happened - his life came into him. It does not mean that he did not gain a soul or a spirit at that point in time, but merely that he came to life. The point of the verse is not to explain the divine nature placed within Adam but merely to express the fact that he came to life.

His life was the breath of God which made Him a soul. A soul is the union of the breath of God and the body of man. How can you say what the point of the verse is? And what do you mean by divine nature?

Yes, this is the same book where he both said Adam became a living person (being or soul) and that Rachel's soul (life) departed from her. This is not rocket science. Moses did not intend to make deep theological statements about the nature of the human being in either instance. The very best we can say in either instance is that life (soul) came and went - end of story.

To clarify, do you believe that the meaning behind the soul departing was to express that the soul was going back to heaven?

When you die your body remains on earth and your soul and spirit either go to heaven or hell. I do not know of any medical records proving that any person's last breath went to heaven. Because Jesus made a play on words in John 3 about the Holy Spirit and the wind, do you believe, as do some, that the Holy Spirit is nothing more or less than a gust of air?

Medical records? Really? What medical records prove that when you die your spirit and soul goes to heaven? And what's the difference between the soul and spirit, aren't they one in the same? And why is it that you have no problem understanding Jesus' play on words in regards to the Spirit, but you can't believe the NT writers would use a play on words in regards to the use of the word soul?

Please accept my apologies for the sarcasm.

It's cool. I actually enjoy our exchanges.

The OT is filled with references to the spirit and to the soul, so I doubt that the NT writers suddenly came up with these ideas on their own. What you have done is to cherrypick a verse from Genesis 1 to support your doctrine and have ignored other, equally relevant passages and verses, many of which expand upon the notion that man is a living being. There is absolutely no contradiction between believing that man is a living being and that man is made in the image of God, is there?

I agree that they didn't just come up with this either. And No, I don't see any contradiction between man being created in the image of God and being a living being. That said: there is no cherrypicking occurring here, at least no more then what you are doing. My understanding stems from Genesis, Psalms, Ecclesiastes, Isaiah, Malachi, etc.

Thus, the Apostles actually were not the country bumpkins that some have made them out to be. Nor, for that matter, were the writers of the OT who also referenced angels, seraphim cherubim, the adversary (Satan), and demons.

No, they were simple men lol. They were just simple men who had faith in their God, which made it easy for God to use them. But what does the existence of angels and demons and so forth have to do with ghosts?

Now it is my turn to be confused. You wrote "I don't know what SDA's you've spoken with but we teach that the Father, Son, and Spirit are separate beings. Co-Eternal and Equal. One God. The Father is the Father. The Son is the Son. The Spirit is the Spirit." That was in response to my trinitarian statement about God being an eternal spirit. Apparently you do not understand the hypostatic union (actually, I am not sure that any of us fully comprehend it). Otherwise I doubt you would have said that you believe in three separate beings.

I won't try to explain what is beyond my ability to completely comprehend. What I do know is that scripture says the Word was with God and the Word was God. Scripture says "Let us make man in our image". I see at the Baptism of Christ the Father speaking from heaven, and the Spirit descending as a dove. I know that God is one. And that's about the best I can give you.

I would never say that God, the Holy Spirit, is the same thing as your breath. What I believe is that even as the Holy Spirit is integral with the godhead so our spirit is integral to who we are. Our spirit is not a mass of air that gets inhaled and exhaled any more than the Holy Spirt is a gust of wind.

Indeed. I was just saying that I wouldn't use the term possession in the same fashion. I believe the Father, Son, and Spirit are One.

Therefore you reject the trinity which is one God composed of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit - not three separate gods.

No. Sorry I don't. I believe One God - Three Persons. Again, it's out of my scope to fathom so I won't try to break it down since I can't.

 

[OrthodoxyUSA]

This isn't about being "ok". And just because the majority holds to something it doesn't make it right. The history of Israel attests to this fact, and for quite a while they were under a theocracy.

Nevermind that it's what has always been held by these groups from the beginning?

If 'a teaching' doesn't have it's source in Apostolic Christianity, then it's false witness to teach that it is a 'Christian' teaching. Call it 'something else'.. but not Christian.

Forgive me...

 

[Stryder06]

Can you show Scripture saying that the soul ceases to exist on the demise of the flesh?

The soul is the union of body + the breath of God.

From dust ye came, to dust ye shall return. That's what God said to Adam. If you live on after you die then guess what that mean? That means "ye shall not surely die". Sound familiar?

 

[Stryder06]

Nevermind that it's what has always been held by these groups from the beginning?

If 'a teaching' doesn't have it's source in Apostolic Christianity, then it's false witness to teach that it is a 'Christian' teaching. Call it 'something else'.. but not Christian.

Forgive me...

From the beginning of what?

From the beginning (OT) a soul is established as the union of the body with the breath of God. From the beginning we understand that the dead know nothing. However that is inconvenient to the Devils lie that "Ye shall not surly die" thus those verses are dismissed by simply saying "Oh that was before more knowledge came" or "That's the OT" or "Well Solomon was depressed so you can't take what he said seriously" or "That's just talking about the body".

Fact - if you're alive after you die you're not really dead. Just as light and darkness cannot occupy the same space, neither can one be dead and alive simultaneously. If the only thing that happens at death is a simple shedding of flesh, then you're just moving from one state of existence to another.

 

[Lion King]

Thank you.

What I highlighted in red is the context of 'soul' in the bible and 'soul' dies at physical death.

There for, if a human person (whole ) is a 'soul' it would encompass body, flesh, heart, spirit etc as a collective term.

I don't think so, mate.

"And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and [I pray God] your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ." 1 Thessalonians 5:23

The physical body and soul are distinct parts according to Scripture.

"And it came to pass, as her soul was in departing, (for she died) that she called his name Benoni: but his father called him Benjamin." Genesis 35:18http://bible.cc/genesis/35-19.htm

Were o you reckon Rachel's soul was departing to in that passage?

Here are the verses that prove 'soul' dies at death.

Numbers 23:10
Judges 16:30

"Who can count the dust of Jacob, and the number of the fourth [part] of Israel? Let me die the death of the righteous, and let my last end be like his!" Numbers 23:10

"And Samson said, Let me die with the Philistines. And he bowed himself with [all his] might; and the house fell upon the lords, and upon all the people that [were] therein. So the dead which he slew at his death were more than [they] which he slew in his life." Judges 16:30

This verses states that humans are not immortal, nothing new there. Flesh and blood is corruptible, perishes and so cannot inherit the Kingdom of God. This is why Scripture states:

"In the sweat of your face shall you eat bread, till you return to the ground; for out of it were you taken: for dust you are, and to dust shall you return." Genesis 3:19

 

[OrthodoxyUSA]

From the beginning of what?

The Christian communities... from the beginning of their communion around The Holy Eucharist.

From Pentecost forward.

Forgive me...

 

[Lion King]

The soul is the union of body + the breath of God.

From dust ye came, to dust ye shall return. That's what God said to Adam. If you live on after you die then guess what that mean? That means "ye shall not surely die". Sound familiar?

"Jesus said to her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believes in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: And whoever lives and believes in me shall never die. Believe you this?" John 11:25-26

sounds real familiar, indeed.

 

[Stryder06]

"Jesus said to her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believes in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: And whoever lives and believes in me shall never die. Believe you this?" John 11:25-26

sounds real familiar, indeed.

Sorry, God never said "ye shall not surely die". And in this verse Christ said "though he were dead yet (future tense) shall he live".

Christ has power to undo what death does. Again, if you shed your flesh and your Spirit goes to heaven, then you didn't die. You simply underwent a metamorphosis, kinda like a caterpillar turning into a butterfly.

 

[Lion King]

Sorry, God never said "ye shall not surely die". And in this verse Christ said "though he were dead yet (future tense) shall he live".

Christ has power to undo what death does. Again, if you shed your flesh and your Spirit goes to heaven, then you didn't die. You simply underwent a metamorphosis, kinda like a caterpillar turning into a butterfly.

What? Jesus said anyone who believes in him will never die, it plainly states that in Scripture.

Stryder, the physical body dies and the spirit returns to Christ, till the ressurection of the dead.

 

[Stryder06]

What? Jesus said anyone who believes in him will never die, it plainly states that in Scripture.

Stryder, the physical body dies and the spirit returns to Christ, till the ressurection of the dead.

So then Satan was right when he told Eve "ye shall not surely die"?

Did you ever notice the difference between how Christ spoke of believers versus those who didn't believe.

The pharisees, Christ said, would die in their sins.

Lazarus, however, was asleep.

Christ doesn't look at death the way we do. He is Eternal, seeing the tomorrow of the believer today. When you die in Christ you will live for all eternity. However if you die in your sins then you will be dead forever at the end of the judgment.

 

[PROPHECYKID]

What?

Jesus said anyone who believes in him will never die, it plainly states that in Scripture.

Look at the entire verse carefully. The first part deals with those who "were dead" and believes in him, and the second part is about those who live and believe in him. Those who die shall live again at the resurrection. Those who are alive at that time and are in Christ shall never see death. Paul says this in 1 Thess 4:16, 17. Paul is not contradicting Jesus. Look at what Jesus himself said:


Joh 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
Joh 5:25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.
Joh 5:26 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;
Joh 5:27 And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.
Joh 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
Joh 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

This is very similar to the verse you provided, except it tell exactly when this is happening. The scene here is the resurrection of which Paul speaks. The resurrection where the dead is passed from death to life. In order to never die, it means you never die. Going to heaven after you die, must mean that you died. When Jesus said that those who believe on him shall never die, he is speaking of those who will be alive in Christ at the resurrection. They shall not see the first or second death.

 

[PROPHECYKID]

People tend to forget what it means to die and to be resurrected.

die1    
[dahy]
–verb (used without object), died, dy·ing.
1.
to cease to live; undergo the complete and permanent cessation of all vital functions; become dead.
2.
(of something inanimate) to cease to exist: The laughter died on his lips.
3.
to lose force, strength, or active qualities: Superstitions die slowly.

res·ur·rect   
[rez-uh-rekt]
–verb (used with object)
1.
to raise from the dead; bring to life again.
2.
to bring back into use, practice, etc.: to resurrect an ancient custom

My question is not to you specifically Lion King but to everyone. How can you be resurrected if you are not dead.

 

[Stryder06]

Thought this was interesting:

[FONT=&quot]Leviticus 17:11 tells us:[/FONT][FONT=&quot] “For the life of the flesh is in the blood, and I have given it to you upon the altar to make atonement for your souls; for it is the blood that makes atonement for the soul”[/FONT]

So if blood makes atonement for the soul, is there any atonement made for the flesh since the two are distinct and separate parts?

 

[PROPHECYKID]

Thought this was interesting:

[FONT=&quot]Leviticus 17:11 tells us:[/FONT][FONT=&quot] “For the life of the flesh is in the blood, and I have given it to you upon the altar to make atonement for your souls; for it is the blood that makes atonement for the soul”[/FONT]

So if blood makes atonement for the soul, is there any atonement made for the flesh since the two are distinct and separate parts?

It a matter of figurative language. In Deuteronomy 5, it says we should love God with our entire soul, and heart. Does that mean that the soul and heart are 2 different entities which makes up man, or it is just an expression to mean our entire being? Genesis 2:7 however, is not an expression.

 

[Lion King]

So then Satan was right when he told Eve "ye shall not surely die"?

Satan was wrong! However, Jesus Christ was right when He said, "if you believe in me, you will never die", because He is LIFE.

Did you ever notice the difference between how Christ spoke of believers versus those who didn't believe.

The pharisees, Christ said, would die in their sins.

Lazarus, however, was asleep.

Christ doesn't look at death the way we do. He is Eternal, seeing the tomorrow of the believer today. When you die in Christ you will live for all eternity. However if you die in your sins then you will be dead forever at the end of the judgment.

Those who believe in Jesus Christ will never die, it's plain stated in Scripture numerous times.

"And they stoned Stephen, calling upon [God], and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit." Acts 7:59

 

[Stryder06]

Satan was wrong! However, Jesus Christ was right when He said, "if you believe in me, you will never die", because He is LIFE.




Those who believe in Jesus Christ will never die, it's plain stated in Scripture numerous times.

"And they stoned Stephen, calling upon [God], and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit." Acts 7:59

Satan said you won't really die. How can he be wrong if you don't die when you die?