Heaven Or Hell

[CoreyD]

It's one or the other.

Have you heard this before?
Growing up, I have heard this, multiple times.... "The good go the heaven. The bad go to hell. One place (heaven) is rejoicing and bliss. The other place (Hell), is torment and anguish... eternally."

Then in my early 20s, I came to learn that this is not true at all. Thanks be to God.
All good people do not go to heaven, and bad people do not experience literal torment and anguish eternally.

What is interesting, is that I learned this truth from the Bible... the same book persons claim teaches the opposite.
What should you believe - (A) All good people go do heaven, and all bad people go to hell. Or (B) All good people do not go to heaven, and both bad and good people go to "hell"?

What the Bible says, is that B is correct, and A is not true.
This is very important to know, because it opens the door for us to know the truth, as taught in the Bible, and reveals the truth about our loved ones that have died, and their future, and ours.

Let's look at it together.
Let's start by asking three questions ...

1. Was King David a good man?
2. When King David died, did he go to heaven?
3. Where is King David now?

 

[Clare73]

It's one or the other.
Have you heard this before?
Growing up, I have heard this, multiple times.... "The good go the heaven. The bad go to hell. One place (heaven) is rejoicing and bliss. The other place (Hell), is torment and anguish... eternally."
Then in my early 20s, I came to learn that this is not true at all. Thanks be to God.
All good people do not go to heaven, and bad people do not experience literal torment and anguish eternally.
What is interesting, is that I learned this truth from the Bible... the same book persons claim teaches the opposite.
What should you believe - (A) All good people go do heaven, and all bad people go to hell. Or (B) All good people do not go to heaven, and both bad and good people go to "hell"?
What the Bible says, is that B is correct, and A is not true.
This is very important to know, because it opens the door for us to know the truth, as taught in the Bible, and reveals the truth about our loved ones that have died, and their future, and ours.
Let's look at it together.

Let's start by asking three questions ...

1. Was King David a good man?
2. When King David died, did he go to heaven?
3. Where is King David now?

Let's apply Jesus' words to the above.

Only those who believed in the promise (Ge 15:5, seed, Jesus Christ, Gal 3:16) went to heaven, those who did not, or do not are condemned already (Jn 3:18)

 

[Bob Crowley]

As a rough rule of thumb, I think "good people" are more likely to go to heaven than "bad people".

But as usual Christ managed to turn some things on their head. The Pharisees thought they were "good people" but Christ effectively condemned them saying that "prostitutes and tax-collectors are getting in ahead of you."

What's not said is the word "repentant" - It was "repentant" prostitutes and tax-collectors Christ was referring to. When the tax-collector Zacchaeus was forgiven by Christ, he repented and promised to pay back any dishonest gain. The woman who wiped Christ's feet with her hair and poured perfume on him was by tradition a prostitute, but she repented. One thief on the cross repented, and Christ stated he would be in paradise with Him that day. But the Gospels are silent about the fate of the other "bad man". He was probably more than just a thief - I don't think the Romans crucified for theft alone.

The Father might have welcomed the prodigal son with open arms and Christ said there is more joy in heaven over one unrepentant sinner than over a whole bunch of good people who don't need to repent. The assumption though is the good people will still get into heaven as the Father said to His other son - "everything I have is yours".

The prodigal son had to come to his senses first, and repent. I was watching an Australian soapie in passing (my wife watches it religiously if you'll pardon the pun). In one episode a character said to a pastor about someone who was behaving unethically that "You know about the prodigal son?" I almost felt like saying aloud "But he has to come to his senses first!"

But it was just a soapie ("Home and Away" for the record) and I wasn't the script writer. If I'd been the script writer, that would have been the pastor's immediate reply.

 

[Bob Crowley]

One thief on the cross repented, and Christ stated he would be in paradise with Him that day. But the Gospels are silent about the fate of the other "bad man". He was probably more than just a thief - I don't think the Romans crucified for theft alone.

Out of curiosity about the term "thief" I went looking for the greek version. It would seem that they were more likely insurrectionists, along the line of Barabbas who was originally supposed to have been crucified on the same day.

What does Mark 15:27 mean? | BibleRef.com

And they *crucified two rebels with Him, one on His right and one on His left. - What is the meaning of Mark 15:27?

www.bibleref.com

​

What does Mark 15:27 mean?​

"Robber" is from the Greek root word lestes. It refers to a plunderer or brigand. It is the same word John uses to describe Barabbas (John 18:40), although Barabbas is also described as an insurrectionist and murderer (Mark 15:7). Typically, the punishment for theft is repaying the victim many times the value of the stolen item. Crucifixion is only used if the theft occurs in a religious or royal building or if the thief kills someone in the execution of the theft. Scholars posit that these men are insurrectionists, possibly even Barabbas' accomplices, though we have no hard evidence of this.

PS - By way of speculation on my own post, if the two "thieves" had been accomplices of Barabbas, and he was the recognised ring-leader, then I suppose it's a possibility he would have been crucified in the middle as "ringleader"

But Christ took his place in the centre.

Just speculation.

 

[Aaron112]

It's one or the other.

Only in fairy tales that were made part of tradition by ungodly methods and means.

 

[CoreyD]

Let's apply Jesus' words to the above.

Only those who believed in the promise (Ge 15:5, seed, Jesus Christ, Gal 3:16) went to heaven, those who did not, or do not are condemned already (Jn 3:18)

I thought the questions I asked were very simple question.
Did you find the questions a little difficult?

Let's apply the scriptural answers to the three questions, to your response.

1. Was King David a good man? Of course he was. 1 Samuel 13:14; 1 Kings 15:5, 11; Acts 13:22 No doubt about it - King David was a good man.
2. When King David died, did he go to heaven? The Bible answers... "David did not ascend to heaven..." Acts 2:34 So, No. When King David died, he did not go to heaven.
3. Where is King David now? "David died and was buried, and his tomb is with us to this day." Acts 2:29 Where everyone goes when they die... including Jesus. (For scriptural references, please see this post.) That's where David is today.

Your answer, Clare, would suggest that either...

1. David did not believe in the promise
2. David went to heaven, even though the Bible says he did not.

Both of which are incorrect.
Since all good people do not go to heaven... according to the scriptures, the teaching that they do, is based on a misunderstanding.
People have mistakenly applied the scriptures pertaining to the Saints, or Holy ones, to every righteous person.

Mistakes do occur. So that's okay.
We make mistakes in our understanding of the scriptures... but are we willing to adjust our view? That is the important question.
Let's try to adjust our understanding, to fit the scripture.

Please see Part 2 of this post... and have a good day Clare.

 

[CoreyD]

As a rough rule of thumb, I think "good people" are more likely to go to heaven than "bad people".

But as usual Christ managed to turn some things on their head. The Pharisees thought they were "good people" but Christ effectively condemned them saying that "prostitutes and tax-collectors are getting in ahead of you."

What's not said is the word "repentant" - It was "repentant" prostitutes and tax-collectors Christ was referring to. When the tax-collector Zacchaeus was forgiven by Christ, he repented and promised to pay back any dishonest gain. The woman who wiped Christ's feet with her hair and poured perfume on him was by tradition a prostitute, but she repented. One thief on the cross repented, and Christ stated he would be in paradise with Him that day. But the Gospels are silent about the fate of the other "bad man". He was probably more than just a thief - I don't think the Romans crucified for theft alone.

The Father might have welcomed the prodigal son with open arms and Christ said there is more joy in heaven over one unrepentant sinner than over a whole bunch of good people who don't need to repent. The assumption though is the good people will still get into heaven as the Father said to His other son - "everything I have is yours".

The prodigal son had to come to his senses first, and repent. I was watching an Australian soapie in passing (my wife watches it religiously if you'll pardon the pun). In one episode a character said to a pastor about someone who was behaving unethically that "You know about the prodigal son?" I almost felt like saying aloud "But he has to come to his senses first!"

But it was just a soapie ("Home and Away" for the record) and I wasn't the script writer. If I'd been the script writer, that would have been the pastor's immediate reply.

You are correct that repentant wrongdoers would gain entry to the kingdom of the heavens.
Jesus said, From the time of John the Baptizer until now, the kingdom of heaven has been forcefully advancing, and forceful people have been seizing it. Matthew 11:12

What makes you think that Paradise is in heaven, though?

 

[Clare73]

I thought the questions I asked were very simple question.
Did you find the questions a little difficult?
Let's apply the scriptural answers to the three questions, to your response.

1. Was King David a good man? Of course he was. 1 Samuel 13:14; 1 Kings 15:5, 11; Acts 13:22 No doubt about it - King David was a good man.
2. When King David died, did he go to heaven? The Bible answers... "David did not ascend to heaven..." Acts 2:34 So, No. . . . . . . . . . . . When King David died, he did not go to heaven.

Dead bodies do not ascend to heaven upon death, even Jesus, whose living body ascended 40 days (Ac 1:1-3) after its resurrection from the dead (Lk 24:50-51).
It is the spirits of the people of God, not their dead bodies, which ascend to heaven when the body dies (Php 1:23).

Where is King David now? "David died and was buried, and his tomb is with us to this day." Acts 2:29 Where everyone goes when they die... including Jesus. (For scriptural references, please see this post.) That's where David is today.
Your answer, Clare, would suggest that either...

1. did not believe in the promise
2. went to heaven, even though the Bible says he did not.

David's body is in he ground, his spirit is with the Lord.

Both of which are incorrect.
Since all good people do not go to heaven... according to the scriptures, the teaching that they do, is based on a misunderstanding.
People have mistakenly applied the scriptures pertaining to the Saints, or Holy ones, to every righteous person.

Mistakes do occur. So that's okay.
We make mistakes in our understanding of the scriptures... but are we willing to adjust our view? That is the important question.
Let's try to adjust to our understanding, to fit the scripture.

Please see Part 2 of this post... and have a good day Clare.

 

[Bob Crowley]

What makes you think that Paradise is in heaven, though?

In this context Paradise is another word for Heaven. The other man, who was Jewish, would have understood Christ meant heaven.

Terrestrial Paradise

Terrestrial Paradise (Hebrew: PRDM, Greek: paradeisos Paradi sus). The name popularly given in Christian tradition to the scriptural Garden of Eden, the home of...

www.catholic.com

In the development of Jewish eschatology which marks the post-Exilic epoch the word paradise or “Garden of God“, hitherto mainly associated with the original dwelling-place of our first parents, was transferred to signify the future abode of rest and enjoyment which was to be the reward of the righteous after death.

"... The future abode of rest and enjoyment which was to be the reward of the righteous after death ... " in the Christian understanding is Heaven, apart from a period which might be spent in Purgatory.

It could be argued the "thief" had done his share of Purgatory - crucified and yet giving a witness to Christ even in that terrible agony. He stayed there too until they broke his legs with something like a sledge hammer which would have been an another ordeal in itself.

 

[CoreyD]

Dead bodies do not ascend to heaven upon death, even Jesus, whose living body ascended 40 days (Ac 1:1-3) after its resurrection from the dead (Lk 24:50-51).

Dead bodies certainly do not go to heaven, but how does this apply to what was said?

It is the spirits of the people of God, not their dead bodies, which ascend to heaven when the body dies (Php 1:23).

Philippians 1:23 I am torn between the two. I desire to depart and be with Christ, which is far better indeed.

Where in that scripture do you read the spirits of the people of God, ascend to heaven when the body dies, Clare?

David's body is in he ground, his spirit is with the Lord.

What do you mean by "his spirit is with the Lord", and what scriptural reference do you have for this?

 

[Aaron112]

Let's look at it together.
Let's start by asking three questions ...

No can do. Almost all the readers/ visitors/ members
have so much false learning to unlearn first, it will take time ,,,, unknown

 

[CoreyD]

In this context Paradise is another word for Heaven. The other man, who was Jewish, would have understood Christ meant heaven.

Terrestrial Paradise

Terrestrial Paradise (Hebrew: PRDM, Greek: paradeisos Paradi sus). The name popularly given in Christian tradition to the scriptural Garden of Eden, the home of...

www.catholic.com

I see a person's belief here, but I'd rather a scripture, Bob.
Do you have a scripture to go with that belief?

"... The future abode of rest and enjoyment which was to be the reward of the righteous after death ... " in the Christian understanding is Heaven, apart from a period which might be spent in Purgatory.

No. This is church doctrine.
This is not what the scripture teach.
I found this out through an examination of the scriptures.
God never did have a purpose for humans to go to heaven.
That arrangement came only after the fall of man, and the loss of paradise.
The kingdom arrangement was in order to restore paradise on earth - man's home.
Please see this post.

If you would like to discuss it further, you can respond either there, or here. It doesn't matter.

It could be argued the "thief" had done his share of Purgatory - crucified and yet giving a witness to Christ even in that terrible agony. He stayed there too until they broke his legs with something like a sledge hammer which would have been an another ordeal in itself.

No, that cannot be agree on, because that is only found in church doctrine.
Search everywhere in the scriptures, and you would not find it.

If you have a scripture, then please post it.

 

[CoreyD]

No can do. Almost all the readers/ visitors/ members
have so much false learning to unlearn first, it will take time ,,,, unknown

It's only when we want to hold on to church doctrine, that it becomes difficult.
I know what you mean though. In my experience, there are a lot of people who don't want to leave their church.
It's like taking an old bone from a dog.
Usually, it's those who have left their church, or aren't very attached to it, who find the truth easy to grasp.

 

[fhansen]

It's one or the other.

Have you heard this before?
Growing up, I have heard this, multiple times.... "The good go the heaven. The bad go to hell. One place (heaven) is rejoicing and bliss. The other place (Hell), is torment and anguish... eternally."

Then in my early 20s, I came to learn that this is not true at all. Thanks be to God.
All good people do not go to heaven, and bad people do not experience literal torment and anguish eternally.

What is interesting, is that I learned this truth from the Bible... the same book persons claim teaches the opposite.
What should you believe - (A) All good people go do heaven, and all bad people go to hell. Or (B) All good people do not go to heaven, and both bad and good people go to "hell"?

What the Bible says, is that B is correct, and A is not true.
This is very important to know, because it opens the door for us to know the truth, as taught in the Bible, and reveals the truth about our loved ones that have died, and their future, and ours.

Let's look at it together.
Let's start by asking three questions ...

1. Was King David a good man?
2. When King David died, did he go to heaven?
3. Where is King David now?

Maybe a certain logic is being overlooked here. If good people go to hell, then God isn't good. And so there's no guarantee that heaven should be any better than hell in that case, as well.

 

[Clare73]

Dead bodies certainly do not go to heaven, but how does this apply to what was said?

It was an agreement with what was posted there.

Philippians 1:23 I am torn between the two. I desire to depart and be with Christ, which is far better indeed.

Where in that scripture do you read the spirits of the people of God, ascend to heaven when the body dies, Clare?

Departure from his body (death) is to be with Christ.

What departs? . . his spirit, for his body doesn't go anywhere on its own.

What do you mean by "his spirit is with the Lord", and what scriptural reference do you have for this?

Are you not aware that man is composed of body and spirit?
When the regenerate man dies, his spirit goes to be with Christ, and his body is buried (Php 1:23).

 

[Bob Crowley]

I see a person's belief here, but I'd rather a scripture, Bob.
Do you have a scripture to go with that belief?

No. This is church doctrine.

Do you have scriptural quotes to show Christ didn't mean heaven?

Church doctrine is based on Scripture.

Is Purgatory in the Bible?

Have you ever wondered where Catholics get that "Purgatory" idea from? Tim Staples, former Protestant turned Catholic apologist, gives a Biblical defense.

www.catholic.com

The kingdom arrangement was in order to restore paradise on earth - man's home.

This universe adds up to zero energy viz. nothing. It was made from nothing ('ex nihilo'), adds up to nothing, and will go back to nothing when it has served God's purpose.

What's the Total Energy In the Universe?

Most cosmologists believe the universe contains exactly zero energy.

www.livescience.com

Considering the amount of energy packed in the nucleus of a single uranium atom, or the energy that has been continuously radiating from the sun for billions of years, or the fact that there are 10^80 particles in the observable universe, it seems that the total energy in the universe must be an inconceivably vast quantity. But it's not; it's probably zero.

Light, matter and antimatter are what physicists call "positive energy." And yes, there's a lot of it (though no one is sure quite how much). Most physicists think, however, that there is an equal amount of "negative energy" stored in the gravitational attraction that exists between all the positive-energy particles. The positive exactly balances the negative, so, ultimately, there is no energy in the universe at all.

You know very well that this earth and universe will pass away. If you want to pin your hopes on a "nothing" universe, go right ahead. I'll stick with Christ's promise of heaven (hopefully I'll get there), which in the first instance will be spiritual. Whether God intends to make another material universe is up to Him, but I don't know why He would bother. They last time He made one, His creatures crucified Him in the form of His Son.

​

2 Peter 3:10 NIV

​

New International Version But the day of the Lord will come like a thief. The heavens will disappear with a roar; the elements will be destroyed by fire, and the earth and everything done in it will be laid bare.

 

[CoreyD]

Maybe a certain logic is being overlooked here. If good people go to hell, then God isn't good. And so there's no guarantee that heaven should be any better than hell in that case, as well.

Have you considered that what is being overlooked by most people, is that we have been fed lies through church doctrine, which many were not privileged to see for themselves, until later when people opposed the church to their death, and made the Bible available in languages that people could read for themselves, and also hear preachers who were bold enough to challenge orthodoxy and cruel authority?
Papal supremacy and Opposition
Heresy and Those Who Fought It
Inquisition Statistics

So ingrained in people's mind are the doctrines of the church, that most people do not know what the Bible actually says.
Consider for example what you believe to be logical statement - "If good people go to hell, then God isn't good."

Where though, did the word "Hell" originate?
Why is it even in some translation of the Bible, and what does it mean to those who use it?
Consider some examples...

Genesis 37:35, 38
According to the Catholic Douay Version
35 And all his children being gathered together to comfort their father [Jacob] in his sorrow, he would not receive comfort, but said: I will go down to my son into hell, mourning. And whilst he continued weeping,
38 But he said: My son shall not go down with you: his brother is dead, and he is left alone: if any mischief befall him in the land to which you go, you will bring down my gray hairs with sorrow to hell.

[35] "Into hell": That is, into limbo, the place where the souls of the just were received before the death of our Redeemer. For allowing that the word hell sometimes is taken for the grave, it cannot be so taken in this place; since Jacob did not believe his son to be in the grave, (whom he supposed to be devoured by a wild beast,) and therefore could not mean to go down to him thither: but certainly meant the place of rest where he believed his soul to be.

Here, they say "hell" is the place of limbo, where good souls go to rest.

Numbers 16:30, 33
According to the Catholic Douay Version
30 But if the Lord do a new thing, and the earth opening her mouth swallow them down, and all things that belong to them, and they go down alive into hell, you shall know that they have blasphemed the Lord.
33 And they went down alive into hell the ground closing upon them, and they perished from among the people.

Here, they give no commentary, but this is a group of bad people, who go to the same "hell" (or are they two different "hells")?
People form their own interpretations and yes, some have come up with the idea of "hell" meaning different things.
Then there are those who have the idea that "hell" has two compartments - one for good people, and one for bad people, since both go the same place.
So, we get confusion.

Does rendering the word as "grave" cause confusion?
Many agree that this is not the case, but rather that that rendering agrees and harmonizes with scripture, as both good and bad people die, and are buried.
As the Bible says, they return to the dust. Genesis 3:19; Job 34:15; Psalm 104:29; Psalm 146:3, 4
All go to one place; all come from dust, and all return to dust. Ecclesiastes 3:20
That is what the Bible says.

So, if we use the word "hell", which many translations use... including the 16th century KJV, then we have to agree that both good and bad people go to "hell".
That would render your statement false, and against scripture, wouldn't it?
So, while it may sound logical, it would be unscriptural.

There are many other scriptures which translations render the Hebrew word Sheol, as "hell", but many other translations render Sheol as "grave".
What I find interesting, is that while the KJV uses the word "Hell", the New KJV (NKJV) uses "grave".

Interesting that they changed, isn't it.
Would it have anything to do with the fact that the use of the word "hell" was based on an earlier teaching of eternal torment in fire, which many are now seeing cannot be true, based on scripture, and so, the concept of "hell" has changed, over time.

One of those scriptures that probably had an impact, is one of my favorites, which says that people come out of "hell"... rendering the whole "eternal torment in hell fire" false.
Revelation 20:13
And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

The Bible does say that only the righteous will go to heaven, but this does not refer to all righteous people, since those who go to heaven are chosen from among mankind for a special role as kings, judges, and priests. Please see this post, for scriptural references.

What are your thoughts on this?

 

[CoreyD]

It was an agreement with what was posted there.

I have no arguments with agreements, so long as it is in agreement.
However, what you said is not in agreement, since it suggests that the body is the person, and that's not what was posted.
It is the person that dies.
One has a body, yes, but the verses are not referring to the body.

Departure from his body (death) is to be with Christ.

What departs? . . his spirit, for his body doesn't go anywhere on its own.

Are you suggesting their is no resurrection?
Or are you suggesting that living spirits depart, to live in heaven?

2 Corinthians 5:1 reads...
For we know that if the tent of our earthly house should be destroyed, we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.

Please read 1 Corinthians 15:35-57, and 1 Thessalonians 4:13-17, and tell me please, what it is you are saying.
Do you see the spirit as described in Ecclesiastes 12:7, or are you thinking there is a living immortal spirit walking around in a physical body.

Please provide scripture to support what you state.

Are you not aware that man is composed of body and spirit?
When the regenerate man dies, his spirit goes to be with Christ, and his body is buried (Php 1:23).

I'm aware that it is the spirit that keeps man alive, rather than there being a living entity with a body, it is the force, or breath of life.
I'm aware of that from scripture.
Genesis 2:7; Genesis 7:22; Genesis 7:15, 32; Job 12:10; Ecclesiastes 3:19; Ecclesiastes 12:7; Isaiah 42:5; Acts 17:25

If you are presenting a different teaching, please provide your source, and the references.

 

[CoreyD]

Do you have scriptural quotes to show Christ didn't mean heaven?

Can you be more specific?
Do you mean his words to the thief? If so...
Here are some scriptures that show Jesus was not offering the thief life in heaven.

In fact, we'd better take one point at a time, on this.
John 3:3
Jesus replied, “Truly, truly, I tell you, no one can see the kingdom of God unless he is born again.”

John 3:5
Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit.

The thief was not a born again Christian.
Do you disagree with point #1? If so, please provide a scriptural basis for doing so.

Church doctrine is based on Scripture.

They do tell us that.
However, have you never seen a teaching that you could not find support for in the Bible?
In most cases, is it not true that church doctrine is based on interpretations of scripture, stemming from beliefs or ideas?

Here is what we read from sources.
The teachings based on the church vary between different Christian denominations. For the Catholic Church, its teachings are based on canonical scripture and sacred tradition, as interpreted authoritatively by the magisterium of the Catholic Church. This includes major teachings summarized in creeds such as the Nicene Creed and the Apostles' Creed. Since the 16th century, the church has produced catechisms to summarize its teachings, with the most recent being the Catechism of the Catholic Church published in 1992.

Protestants believe the Bible contains all revealed truths necessary for salvation. This concept is known as Sola scriptura. Catholics do not believe the Bible contains all revealed truths necessary for salvation.

Is Purgatory in the Bible?

Have you ever wondered where Catholics get that "Purgatory" idea from? Tim Staples, former Protestant turned Catholic apologist, gives a Biblical defense.

www.catholic.com

This universe adds up to zero energy viz. nothing. It was made from nothing ('ex nihilo'), adds up to nothing, and will go back to nothing when it has served God's purpose.

I've heard people say that God created the universe from nothing.
I read in the Bible, that God created the universe from energy - his own. Isaiah 40:26

The word "energy" is not explicitly used in the Bible, but the concept of energy is discussed in various verses. For example, Colossians 1:29 mentions striving according to God's power, which mightily works within the individual.

The word "energy" is coined by man, but the power existing in God, is dynamic, and nothing like the energy that scientists observe.
Ezekiel's vision shows this... Ezekiel 1:13

The Israelites saw a demonstration of this "energy", when Mount Sinai smoked when God's glory was seen, and Elijah was able to see God's power in action. 1 Kings 19:9-14

I think it is wise to believe the Bible over what people say.
The Bible does not say God made anything out of nothing. Nothing from nothing is still nothing, and from nothing, can come nothing.
That is a fact. It's Mathematic.

Which do you believe?

What's the Total Energy In the Universe?

Most cosmologists believe the universe contains exactly zero energy.

www.livescience.com

Limited knowledge is not truth.
It's what people believe, until they discover something that causes them to replace what they believe.

You know very well that this earth and universe will pass away.

I must not know that I know this. Why do you think I know this?

If you want to pin your hopes on a "nothing" universe, go right ahead. I'll stick with Christ's promise of heaven (hopefully I'll get there), which in the first instance will be spiritual. Whether God intends to make another material universe is up to Him, but I don't know why He would bother. They last time He made one, His creatures crucified Him in the form of His Son.

Isaiah 45:18 reads...
For thus says the LORD, Who created the heavens, Who is God, Who formed the earth and made it, Who has established it, Who did not create it in vain, Who formed it to be inhabited: “I am the LORD, and there is no other.

Do you think God made the earth in vain?

​

2 Peter 3:10 NIV

​

New International Version But the day of the Lord will come like a thief. The heavens will disappear with a roar; the elements will be destroyed by fire, and the earth and everything done in it will be laid bare.

Will This Planet be Destroyed?
Millions of people who read the Bible, understand that it the physical earth will not be destroyed, but as God said in his Revelation to his Church... the prophecy - And the nations were enraged, and Your wrath came, and the time for the dead to be judged, and to give the reward to Your servants, the prophets, and to the saints, and to those fearing Your name, the small and the great, and to destroy those who are destroying the earth."

Does that sound like God will let anyone destroy the earth, or destroy it himself?

 

[Clare73]

I have no arguments with agreement, so long as it is in agreement.
However, what you said is not in agreement, since it suggests that the body is the person, and that's not what was posted.

The body and the immortal spirit together are the human being, the person.

The body dies, but the spirit does not, for it is immortal.
For believers, at death the spirit being unclothed (by the body) is with Jesus (Php 1:23).

It is the person that dies.
One has a body, yes, but the verses are not referring to the body.

Are you suggesting their is no resurrection?
Or are you suggesting that living spirits depart, to live in heaven?

Yes, the immortal spirits of the born again are with Christ at the death of the body, for to depart from the body (human death) is to be with Christ (Php 1:23); i.e., in heaven.
"(For the spirit) to be away from the body is to be at home with the Lord." (2 Co 5:6-8).

At the resurrection those immortal spirits are reunited with their glorified bodies.

2 Corinthians 5:1 reads...
For we know that if the tent of our earthly house should be destroyed, we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.

This is one of the eternal realities--a building from God, an eternal house in heaven, a solid structure--a work of God and, therefore, perfect and permanent--that are as yet unseen (2 Co 5:1).

Please read 1 Corinthians 15:35-57, and 1 Thessalonians 4:13-17, and tell me please, what it is you are saying.

Well thought out. . .let's see if my response can approximate the same.

1 Co 15:35-57 deals with some objections regarding the resurrection:
1) What is the nature of the resurrection body? It is both similar and different from the former body (1 Co 15:35-44).
2) There is a natural (sinful) body and there is a spiritual (sinless) resurrection body (1 Co 15:44-49).
3) The natural (flesh and blood-perishable/mortal) body cannot inherit the kingdom of God, it must be changed to imperishable (sinless) and immortal (1 Co 15:35-55).
4) It was Adam's sin that brought his death and ultimately ours (Ro 5:12).
And it is the law of God that gives sin its power; i.e., it reveals our sin and condemns us because of our sin (1 Co 15:56-57).

1 Th 4:13-14 is responding to the believer's concern regarding the born again, who had already died, missing the catching up (rapture) when Jesus returned. Paul instructs them (1 Th 4:14-18) that those believers will be raised from the dead first, reunited with their immortal spirits and then likewise caught up with the living saints when Jesus returns .

Do you see the spirit as described in Ecclesiastes 12:7, or are you thinking there is a living immortal spirit walking around in a physical body.

Somewhat imprecise, but that is a description of a living human being, where
1) Paul refers to the human body as the earthly tent (2 Co 5:4) which clothes the immortal spirit,
2) and which, when this tent is destroyed, the immortal spirit is made naked (2 Co 5:3).

Please provide scripture to support what you state.

In 2 Co 5:1-9, Paul presents
1) an earthy tent (human body), v.1
2) an as yet unseen eternal house in heaven, v.1,
3) a naked immortal spirit, unclothed with its human body by death, vv .2-3,

I'm aware that it is the spirit that keeps man alive, rather than there being a living entity with a body, it is the force, or breath of life.
I'm aware of that from scripture.
Genesis 2:7; Genesis 7:22; Genesis 7:15, 32; Job 12:10; Ecclesiastes 3:19; Ecclesiastes 12:7; Isaiah 42:5; Acts 17:25

If you are presenting a different teaching, please provide your source, and the references.

I am presenting 2 Co 5:1-9.

The OT is always understood in the light of the NT; e.g., the sacrifices, defilements, cleansings, etc.