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"He Shall Be Called a Nazarene" - An Error in the Bible?

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thereselittleflower

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The inclusion of one minor passage in an extrabiblical and uninspired book (How do I know it is uninspired? Because it did not survive intact, as did the rest of the inspired works.


Ummm . .. what valid evidence do you have to support your claim that this is a valid test of inspiration?

I know of no such evidence, and I have been at this for a long time . . .

I am sorry, but this is simply your opinion, not fact . . . you have to establish it as a fact, based on valid, solid evidence if you want me to take it seriously.

We are talking about a prophecy . . if it is a prophecy of God, then it is inspired . . if prophecy of God is not inspired, then we are in a heap of trouble!


And by the way, the "Book of Enoch" is not written by the prophet Enoch of the Old Testament, as the writer speaks of events nearly a thousand years after Enoch lived as being in the writer's past.)

And? So? There are books in the NT that were not written by the apostles . . what does who wrote it have to do with anything?

Is the book of Jude wrong in claiming that this is a prophecy from Enoch?

Enoch existed before Noah . . so this would have been a prophecy verbally trasmitted for over 1000 years!, then finally written by someone . . .

The scripture refers to it as prophecy from God . . are you saying its not?


....is not sufficient to pull in every single extrabiblical work under the umbrella of inspiration. The fact this one small nugget survived and made its way into Jude's letter -- a letter [/FONT]
written, by the way, by a half brother of Jesus -- does not mean the rest of the work was inspired. In fact, as I pointed out above, if it was inspired, it would have survived en toto.


Sorry . . we are talking about an authoritative source of prophecy that is extrabiblical . . . you are missing the point it seems .. .

The point is, the bible alone is not the only authoritative source of revelation God left us with . . . .


Again, I do not wish to offend. I simply wish to point out that the assumptions made on the word of men

And I am pointing out yours. :)


-- the only basis of support for oral tradition as divinely inspired -- is an error we as believers cannot afford to make.

:)

I don't buy that at all . . . sorry . .

We are commanded in scripture to

Stand fast and hold to the TRADITIONS the Early Church was taught by the Apostles, whether verbally or in writing . . .

This is a command . . . and by the way, the words "whether" and "or" are translations of the same Greek word "eite" . . which means

IF TOO . . not either/or . . . . .




.
 
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IisJustMe

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As an aside there are numerous books mentioned in the Bible(I can think of at least 2 references off the top of my head) that we no longer possess. There are scriptures and books which we only have vague reference to. One example is when Jesus talks of an individual, I think an angel, arguing with the devil. It refers back to a text we no longer have, or at least an oral tradition.
"Numerous"? No offense, friend, but I think you'll have a very difficult time listing "numerous" such references, and I am certain you will find it impossible to find Jesus quoting anything but the accepted canon.
 
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IisJustMe

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I may have a copy in "Lost Books of the Bible" but I don't have it with me right now to verify that.
My Bible is complete, or at least it was when I was studying it this morning. I didn't notice any books had slipped out and disappeared overnight at any rate.

The term "Lost Books of the Bible" is a manmade misnomer, deliberately coined to cast aspersions on God's word, as though something is left out. Sorry for the sarcasm above, but the truth is, nothing is left out of God's word. It is complete, the absolutely authoritative and final word of God. Nothing else was said, nor necessary to be said. Men may wish for more so they can escape its pronouncement of God's ownership and expectation of creation, but there is no relief from truth, or the consequences of failing to accept it.
 
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IisJustMe

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Ummm . .. what valid evidence do you have to support your claim that this is a valid test of inspiration? I know of no such evidence, and I have been at this for a long time . . .
There is no other test. If it did not survive, it was not inspired. God spoke everything into existence, so He can certainly protect His word. I don't know what a "long time" is, but it does not matter. Either God has revealed it to you, or He has not.
I am sorry, but this is simply your opinion, not fact . . . you have to establish it as a fact, based on valid, solid evidence if you want me to take it seriously.
That is merely an opinion in itself. You have nothing to establish the opinion of the men who established the doctrine that you have adopted on faith. I have the word itself, 2 Timoth 3:16, 17, which speaks of Scripture (Greek, graphe = written word) being inspired, and the word alone
We are talking about a prophecy . . if it is a prophecy of God, then it is inspired . . if prophecy of God is not inspired, then we are in a heap of trouble!
Absolutely true. And the test of prophecy was its truth. Obviously, the rest of the book of Enoch isn't inspired by God, or we would still have it available as part of the Bible. We don't. You just proved your own denial is off-target.
And? So? There are books in the NT that were not written by the apostles . . what does who wrote it have to do with anything?
The fact they are included it the proof of their inspiration. Again, God preserves His word, not man, and man's additions were not endorsed by the Holy Spirit who inspired the selection of the canon. Witness the fact it was the early church, filled with Apocrypha adherents, who failed to initially include that mass of uninspired writings in the original canon. How do you suppose only two of more than 50 men present who adhered to the Apocrypha would vote to not include it in the canon, except by the power of the Spirit of God?
Is the book of Jude wrong in claiming that this is a prophecy from Enoch?[/quote
]No, absolutely not. But out of an entire book, only one small nugget being preserved in Scripture is an indication that whoever wrote Enoch wasn't right very much, and therefore wasn't a prophet. But if you shoot a shotgun at a target, a few pieces of shot will find the bulls-eye, and that is apparently what the writer of Enoch managed to do.
Enoch existed before Noah . . so this would have been a prophecy verbally trasmitted for over 1000 years!, then finally written by someone . . .
Again, you're right, but that doesn't mean Enoch wrote the book bearing his name. That is especially given the fact that the writer speaks of things that were future to Enoch being in the writer's past.
Sorry . . we are talking about an authoritative source of prophecy that is extrabiblical . . . you are missing the point it seems .. .
It is in the Bible, how can it be "extrabiblical"? It seems you are the one who has missed the point.
The point is, the bible alone is not the only authoritative source of revelation God left us with . . . .
That is truly nothing more than opinion. And one which I believe I have shown to be incorrect. My apologies if that offends you, and as I've made the points I need to make, I'm finished now. I know I won't change your beliefs, and you won't change mine. So be it. And God bless and keep you.
 
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Proeliator

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Well, here is my explanation that completely dumbfounded this atheist:


Look at the verse again.

and came and lived in a city called Nazareth. This was to fulfill what was spoken through the prophets: "He shall be called a Nazarene."
Matt 2:23


This verse says it was "spoken", it was not "written" down. This is why there is no verse in the Old Testament. The Old Testament has the prophesies that were written down, but this one was oral.

The Old Testament Jews took great stock in oral tradition. Jesus condemned them for holding to human tradition at times when it went againt the Word of God. The Talmud is a collection of some of oral sayings that were said by Moses but were not written down in the Pentateuch.

Obvious, one of the prophets orally taught that the Messiah would be a Nazarene, not meaning He would be from the Nazarite order, but that He would be raised in Nazareth. This was not written down. This was never written down, but it was carried on from generation to generation by word of mouth.

So what Matthew wrote was correct. It was spoken by the prophets. He did not write that it was ever written down. That was a false assumption from my atheist opponent, and many readers on this thread.

But why do Protestant commentators go through all sorts of contortions to come up with explanations that any skeptic would just laugh at? Why avoid the simple, direct explanation in favor of complicated explanations that seem to be mere cop-outs?

The reason is that the simple, direct explanation is too Catholic! In order to accept the simple explanation, one must admit that oral tradition can sometimes contain the words of God. It means that, although Jesus condemned tradition when it goes against the Word of God, that sometimes oral tradition can contain the Word of God.

And since oral tradition can sometimes contain the Word of God, Matthew can quote from oral tradition and show how Jesus fulfilled it.

But for Protestants to admit that oral tradition can at times be valid would set a dangerous precedent. They would prefer to have contorted explanations that makes makes them laughingstocks to outsiders than to admit that their Catholic brothers could be right.

As was mentioned previously, it is because any self respecting atheist that likes to debate would tear to shreds this argument, in about 30 seconds. Maybe instead of continually trying to cause strife between Protestants and Catholics, you should look and maybe even learn something from other peoples ideas.
 
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Optimax

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and came and lived in a city called Nazareth. This was to fulfill what was spoken through the prophets: "He shall be called a Nazarene."
Matt 2:23

Everybody pick up your Bible Concordances and look for this verse in the Old Testament. You will not find it. It does not exist in the OT.

So was Mattew making this up? How can he say that this fulfills prophesy when this prophesy was never even recorded in the Old Testament?


So if this is a error, how can the Bible be the inerrant Word of God?

Merry Christmas! :wave:


There is no more scripture, I have found and evidently no one else either to explain.

Any possibility is speculation as scripture is not clear.

No amount of "discussion" will bring any light whatsoever on the subject.

Therefore my suggestion is this.

Those of us in heaven may or may not get around to asking this question. That is the only way we will know. :)
 
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silentpoet

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"Numerous"? No offense, friend, but I think you'll have a very difficult time listing "numerous" such references, and I am certain you will find it impossible to find Jesus quoting anything but the accepted canon.

[BIBLE=1 Kings 15] 31 As for the other events of Nadab's reign, and all he did, are they not written in the book of the annals of the kings of Israel?[/BIBLE]

[BIBLE=2 Chronicles 25:25-27]As for the other events of Amaziah's reign, from beginning to end, are they not written in the book of the kings of Judah and Israel?[/BIBLE]

And I can think of another that I cannot find at the moment. But surely you know of this. You are the expert.

As far as The Lost Books of The Bible, you are misinformed. It is a collection of books rejected from the canon for various reasons. It is not a mockery. It does help reveal the wisdom given to the church fathers when they canonized the bible. And I find your attitude annoying and patronizing. It is wise to be more considerate of your words.
Yet these men speak abusively against whatever they do not understand
 
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yodafett

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[BIBLE=1 Kings 15] 31 As for the other events of Nadab's reign, and all he did, are they not written in the book of the annals of the kings of Israel?[/bible]

[BIBLE=2 Chronicles 25:25-27]As for the other events of Amaziah's reign, from beginning to end, are they not written in the book of the kings of Judah and Israel?[/bible]

I've always believed that those books refered to are 1 & 2 Kings, which is 1 book in Hebrew manuscripts (thus the term "book"), if I'm not mistaken.

As far as The Lost Books of The Bible, you are misinformed. It is a collection of books rejected from the canon for various reasons. It is not a mockery. It does help reveal the wisdom given to the church fathers when they canonized the bible. And I find your attitude annoying and patronizing. It is wise to be more considerate of your words.
No, not all of them were rejected or even considered for canonization, and more than anything, it is the title and marketing of the book that is a mockery. Those books were not lost, and most of them were not ever in the bible to be lost from it, but that's totally OT in this thread.
 
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silentpoet

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I've always believed that those books refered to are 1 & 2 Kings, which is 1 book in Hebrew manuscripts (thus the term "book"), if I'm not mistaken.


No, not all of them were rejected or even considered for canonization, and more than anything, it is the title and marketing of the book that is a mockery. Those books were not lost, and most of them were not ever in the bible to be lost from it, but that's totally OT in this thread.
Check where the quote comes from, the one is from 1 kings. They are refering to another book.
 
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silentpoet

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I don't think so. My point is not to agree or disagree with any of the major points of this thread, just to point out that scriptures can get lost and that there are references to other books. There are other references, but I can't recall or find them right now. I have been up all night. The quotation in Jude about an angel talking to the devil does point to stuff we do not currently have in the canon, if it is an unknown book or not I cannot say as I have not studied the matter in enough detail. And frankly it is not in the cards for quite awhile. I am on a 40 day plan to read the bible. And based on that I am sure I will find other more productive stuff to study than what is or isn't canon.
 
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PaulAckermann

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Hum. Interesting, that coming from you...
You seem to be embracing the Protestant position that all is accountable to God's Holy Scriptures - or at least that Jesus did.
But, was the rubric of Jesus that WHATEVER a Teacher says is inerrant, authoritative and equal to the Word of God if it didn't go against the Word of God? Whatever isn't specifically denied is inerrantly true and the Holy Word of God? Is THAT the rubric you are suggesting Jesus had?
The Catholic Church does not teach that ALL tradition is bad or that ALL tradition is good. The Catholic Church teaches that some tradition is good and some is bad. For instance, Origen taught that the Devil will be eventually saved. Tertullian later in life taught that once a Christian commits a mortal sin he can never be forgiven even if he confesses to a priest. These are examples of bad tradition.
Tradition can be from God. Or it can be just from man. When Jesus condemned tradition, this was tradition from man. When Matthew quoted from tradition, this tradition was from God.
Well, when God tells me it's so in a particular case, I'd have no issues with that. But when Joseph Smith tells me, well... We are nowhere told to look to the Catholic denomination or the Infallible Pope or the Vicar of Christ for such. GOD inspired Matthew to write such - and it's recorded in that Book which Catholics call "The Word of God and no greater assurance of credence can be given."
Without an infallible maigisterium how do you know which tradition is from God and which is not? How do you know that John's vision of the Apocalypse is ffrom God and Joseph Smith's vision is not from God? Do you appeal to the "inner witness of the Spirit"? But a Mormon also says that the "inner witness of the Spirit" that the Book of Mormon is from God. So how do you know that you are right and the Mormon is wrong?
The truth is, NONE of the men the Catholic denomination labels "Early Church Fathers" was an Apostle, penmen or Prophet - and only a couple of them even met one (none of them ever met Christ). Most of them lived centuries later. Apples and oranges to ME.
No one is saying that any Early Church Fathers were infallible.

What we are saying is that Early Church Fathers were much closer to the apostles than we are, so they had a better understanding of the postles than we do. If live one to three centuries after the time of apostles disqualifies them from truly understanding the apostles, then how much more are we disqualified, since we are 20 centuries laters! How can we ever hope to understand the apostles, since we are 2,000 years after the time of the apostles, when those that just lived a century or so later completely misunderstood them?
I don't have to accept that every SOURCE of information in the NT is correct in order to accept that the NT is correct. Luke clearly indicates that he investigated things.
Protestant apologetists that I have read have argued that we know that the OT is the authoritative Word of God because Jesus and the apostles quoted from the OT. By them quoting from the OT, that showed that they viewed the OT as the authoritaive Word of God.
But since you believe that just because Jesus and the apostles quoted from something, that does not mean that Jesus and the apostles endorsed it, then how do you know that the OT is the Word of God?

Not only then, but Matthew makes it clear that it is not just a interesting coincidence that Jesus fulfilled this oral tradition. He saw it as something as being spoken by a prophet. A prophet is one who spoke the word of God, so he viewed this tradition, which carried on the words of the prophet, as carrying the Word of God.
 
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CaliforniaJosiah

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Hum. Interesting, that coming from you...
You seem to be embracing the Protestant position that all is accountable to God's Holy Scriptures - or at least that Jesus did.
But, was the rubric of Jesus that WHATEVER a Teacher says is inerrant, authoritative and equal to the Word of God if it didn't go against the Word of God? Whatever isn't specifically denied is inerrantly true and the Holy Word of God? Is THAT the rubric you are suggesting Jesus had?
The Catholic Church does not teach that ALL tradition is bad or that ALL tradition is good. The Catholic Church teaches that some tradition is good and some is bad. For instance, Origen taught that the Devil will be eventually saved. Tertullian later in life taught that once a Christian commits a mortal sin he can never be forgiven even if he confesses to a priest. These are examples of bad tradition.
Tradition can be from God. Or it can be just from man. When Jesus condemned tradition, this was tradition from man. When Matthew quoted from tradition, this tradition was from God.


As I was taught in the Catholic denomination...

But what I was also taught is that it's the Catholic denomination ALONE that is the SOLE arbitrater as to which little snippet from here and there IS "infallible Apostolic Tradition" and which isn't. Thus, it is WHATEVER the Catholic denomination itself, alone, says it is. BUT, this is something ONLY the Catholic denomination can do. It's circular, self-authenticating and very dangerous of ANY other teacher (person, congregation or denomination) does this, but infallible and inerrant when the Catholic denomination does it.


Furthermore, I was taught in the Catholic denomination (perhaps you weren't) that it's the Catholic denomination ALONE that is the SOLE interpreter of this misc. assortment of snippets that the Catholic denomination has labeled "infallible Apostolic Tradition" so that these snippets mean whatever the Catholic denomination infallibly says they mean. Such, I discovered repeatedly, may be significantly different than what the man actually wrote but quickly learned that what he wrote is not authoritative it's what the Catholic denomination itself that infallibly states that the man MEANT to write (whether he did or did not seems rather moot).


Your point, IMHO, is critical. There is no ecumencially embraced corpus of this "Tradition." The Catholic denomination may look at a work from Origen for example. It will declare one sentence to be "Infallible Apostolic Tradition" but the next sentence is heresy - and so on.


Do you appeal to the "inner witness of the Spirit"? But a Mormon also says that the "inner witness of the Spirit" that the Book of Mormon is from God. So how do you know that you are right and the Mormon is wrong?


Well, the epistemology you are defending is that we allow the teacher to be the sole teaching authority, the sole interpreter, the sole arbiter - and to predeclare himself infallible and therefore unaccountable even before the evaluation begins. If it's infallible when the Catholic denomination chooses snippets from here and there and declares it "Infallible Apostolic Tradition" as it alone so defines and interprets, why can it condemn another for doing exactly what it itself insists is infallible and the correct thing to do? Ah, Protestants would say you are BOTH accountable for your self-claims and unique teachings - we give NEITHER the RCC or LDS a "pass." (Or ourselves). We'd say you are BOTH, equally, accountable to God's holy inerrant written Word - a Rule outside you both, above you both. Written so that neither of you can altar it and so that it's knowable to both of you. And since you both agree that your self chosen snippets are not inerrant per se, we Protestants would hold them all (Catholic and Mormon) up to the INERRANT light of God's Holy Word. We ask you to do the same with us.




No one is saying that any Early Church Fathers were infallible.


I know.
So why are they equal or above God's inerrant Word in authority and normative function?




What we are saying is that Early Church Fathers were much closer to the apostles than we are, so they had a better understanding of the postles than we do.


A position I would not agrue with.


BUT, IMHO, that does not suggest that the snippets the Catholic denomination has chosen from here and there among them, as the Catholic denomination alone and itself interprets should be placed at least on a par with God's Holy Word. THAT, my friend, is the disagreement. It's not a question of WHICH should be considered, it's a question of WHICH ORDER they should be considered in - Protestants say Scripture THEN Tradition, Catholics insists it's [Catholic] Tradition THEN Scripture. As was stressed to me in the Catholic Church, "[Catholic] Tradition is the 'lens' by which we are to interpret Scriptures. ANY interpretation - no matter how valid - MUST be rejected unless it confirms and upholds [Catholic] Tradition - what the Catholic denomination teaches." As I was taught repeatedly, God's Holy Word MUST agree with what the Catholic Church teaches and the snippets it itself has chosen as it itself has interpreted them, thus it is placed subject to the teachings/traditions/chosen snippets of the Catholic denomination.



If live one to three centuries after the time of apostles disqualifies them from truly understanding the apostles, then how much more are we disqualified, since we are 20 centuries laters!


1. The number of men the Catholic denomination labels as "Early Church Fathers" that ever even MET an Apostle can be counted on one hand. And none of them ever met Christ. Most of the ECF lived centeries after the last Apostle died.

2. And yet you just said that just because someone lived early doesn't make them right. Ah, you REJECT a lot of things St. Origen wrote - things that are EQUALLY historical. And we could speak of Arius and a goodly number of others MORE HISTORICAL, closer to the First Century than most of the ECF. So much for that arguement....

3. Again, no one is suggesting that these snippets should be disregarded. What IS challenged is the insistance of the Catholic denomination that the snippets from here and there, this guy and that, that the Catholic denomination itself chooses and as the Catholic denomination itself alone interprets are at least EQUAL in Authority and normative function to God's Holy inerrant written Word. I'm not suggesting that these men be ignored (very much the contrary!!!!!!!!), I'm suggesting they not be regarded at least EQUAL to God and God's Word in Authority and normative function. THAT'S what we disagree on.



Thank you for the discussion.


My $0.01


Pax!


- Josiah



.
 
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thereselittleflower

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My Bible is complete, or at least it was when I was studying it this morning. I didn't notice any books had slipped out and disappeared overnight at any rate.


How do you know your bible is complete?

Does it contain all the books canonized at the same time the Early Church canonized the NT scriptures at Church Councils such as Hippo and Carthage in the last 4th and early 5th centuries?

How do you know?


The term "Lost Books of the Bible" is a manmade misnomer, deliberately coined to cast aspersions on God's word, as though something is left out. Sorry for the sarcasm above, but the truth is, nothing is left out of God's word. It is complete, the absolutely authoritative and final word of God. Nothing else was said, nor necessary to be said.

How do you know that the scriptures are the final word of God?

If the scriptures are the final word of God, then the scirptures must say that, right?

Where do they say that?


Men may wish for more so they can escape its pronouncement of God's ownership and expectation of creation, but there is no relief from truth, or the consequences of failing to accept it.

I have not seen that you have promoted truth here at all . .

I am waiting for your proof . . . .


.
 
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thereselittleflower

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There is no other test. If it did not survive, it was not inspired.


According to who? Where does scripture tell us that this is a valid test?

And you didn't respond at all to what I asked . . try again:
Originally Posted by thereselittleflower
Ummm . .. what valid evidence do you have to support your claim that this is a valid test of inspiration? I know of no such evidence, and I have been at this for a long time . . .​

I was asking you for evidence to support your claim . . not what other tests there were . . .

Are you not reading what you are responding to?


You have made a claim . . now you are being required to provide evidence that your claim is legitimate . . . that your claim is valid. . . .

Where is that evidence?



God spoke everything into existence, so He can certainly protect His word.
Exactly our point regarding the VERBAL Traditions taught by the Apostles . . . Thank you! :)

We are commanded to keep them, and, as you so eloquently put it, God is certainly able to protect His word taught verbally by the Apostles . . . so we have no excuse for not standing fast and holding to those VERBAL Traditions taught by the apostles. :)


I don't know what a "long time" is, but it does not matter. Either God has revealed it to you, or He has not.

I have been doing apologetics for years. . . you have not yet proven God has revealed anything about the scriptures being the final word of God . . . .so this is meaningless at the momment. . .


I am sorry, but this is simply your opinion, not fact . . . you have to establish it as a fact, based on valid, solid evidence if you want me to take it seriously.​
That is merely an opinion in itself.


Um . . no . . you have not done anything but make claims . . you have offered no legitimate evidenc. I made a statement of fact.

You have nothing to establish the opinion of the men who established the doctrine that you have adopted on faith.

I was not talking about what anyone else has said . . I was talking about what YOU said, pointing out its nature and lack of evidence. . .

You are being required to prove your claims . . . please stop side stepping the issue if you want to be taken seriously. A continual avoidance of providing evidence to back up your claims tends to destroy your credibility . . .


I have the word itself, 2 Timoth 3:16, 17, which speaks of Scripture (Greek, graphe = written word) being inspired, and the word alone[/FONT]

Ummmm Where does it actually say that the scripture is the word of God "alone" ?

I can't find it .. please show us . . .


Absolutely true.


We agree . .amazing!


And the test of prophecy was its truth.

I thought there wasn't any other test than that it is in your bible? :scratch: See your first comments in your post above . . .


Now, truth according to whom?


Obviously, the rest of the book of Enoch isn't inspired by God, or we would still have it available as part of the Bible.

That is your claim . . you have offered no proof that this claim is legitimate . ..

We are still waiting for you to prove your claim is true . . .


We don't. You just proved your own denial is off-target.

Do you understand that this is a logically fallacious argument, based on assuming what you are required to prove is true?

You are assuming the conclusion . . . you have proven nothing yet . . . .

So, your claim of what I have done is baseless . . .


I am still waiting for you to prove your claim.


The fact they are included it the proof of their inspiration


How does that prove the contrary?

I am still waiting for your proof . . . . .



. Again, God preserves His word, not man, and man's additions were not endorsed by the Holy Spirit who inspired the selection of the canon. Witness the fact it was the early church, filled with Apocrypha adherents, who failed to initially include that mass of uninspired writings in the original canon.

Let's look at what you said above:
"Witness the fact it was the early church, filled with Apocrypha adherents, who failed to initially include that mass of uninspired writings in the original canon"

So, what was included in the original canon of the Early Church is witness to what is inspired.

Thank you. I appreciate your agreement regarding the trustworthiness of the witness of the Early Church as to what is inspired scripture. The witness of the Early Church is trustworthy.

Obviously, you don't know much about Church history . . .

If you would bother to study Church History, you would discover that multiple Early Church councils confirmed what you call "apocrypha" as scripture and included it in the canon of scripture.

How do you suppose only two of more than 50 men present who adhered to the Apocrypha would vote to not include it in the canon, except by the power of the Spirit of God?

what are you talking about?

No, absolutely not. But out of an entire book, only one small nugget being preserved in Scripture is an indication that whoever wrote Enoch wasn't right very much,


Still basing your arguments on unproven claims. . .

Still waiting for evidence that your test is valid . .


and therefore wasn't a prophet.

Baseless conjecture . . nothing more . . .

still waiting for evidence that your test is valid. . .. .

But if you shoot a shotgun at a target, a few pieces of shot will find the bulls-eye, and that is apparently what the writer of Enoch managed to do

More baseless conjecture . . .

Still waiting for evidence that your test is valid . ..


Again, you're right, but that doesn't mean Enoch wrote the book bearing his name.


:doh:

Obviously you are not listening . . .or willing to engage in logical, reasoned debate or discussion . . .

That is especially given the fact that the writer speaks of things that were future to Enoch being in the writer's past.
Still baseless conjecture . . .

Still waiting for evidence that your test is valid . . ..



It is in the Bible, how can it be "extrabiblical"? It seems you are the one who has missed the point.

Was it in the bible when Jude was written?

Jude used Jude? That is an invalid circular argument.

We are talking about what a writer of NT scripture used as authoritative and inspired . .

He didn't use scripture . . he used something outside of scripture . .

This is the point you seem intent on ignoring. . . .

You are simply twisting the argument and making straw out of it . . .a straw man argument . a logical fallacy . . .


That is truly nothing more than opinion.


No . .it is based on a command of scripture to stand fast and hold to the VERBAL Traditions taught by the Apostles. .


And one which I believe I have shown to be incorrect.

You can believe anything you like .. that doesn't make it so . .

You have been asked for evidence of your claims .. something you have provided nothing of . . without providing evidence that stands the test of scrutiny, you have proven nothing . . .


My apologies if that offends you, and as I've made the points I need to make, I'm finished now.

Of course. . no evidence . . I see . . . just claims . ..

Very revealing . . .

Of course you are finished now . . it is difficult to actually provide evidence to support your claims, and since this is what is required of you, it is easier to leave . .

OK . . . no evidence . . that's fine . . :) just demonstrates your position is not credible.


I know I won't change your beliefs, and you won't change mine. So be it. And God bless and keep you.

You were being asked to PROVE your claims .. .


That seems to be impossible . . .


Thank you for showing us that.


.
 
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PaulAckermann

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As I was taught in the Catholic denomination...
But what I was also taught is that it's the Catholic denomination ALONE that is the SOLE arbitrater as to which little snippet from here and there IS "infallible Apostolic Tradition" and which isn't. Thus, it is WHATEVER the Catholic denomination itself, alone, says it is. BUT, this is something ONLY the Catholic denomination can do. It's circular, self-authenticating and very dangerous of ANY other teacher (person, congregation or denomination) does this, but infallible and inerrant when the Catholic denomination does it.
An outsider from Christianity can say the same thing about Christianity as a whole. "Why is that you Christians reject what Confucious said and accept what Paul says?" Would you fall into a circular, self-authenticating argument?
Also, the Catholic Church also teached that we can be certain what the apostles taught if the Early Church Fathers are unanymous on a partcular doctrine. But sometimes the Early Church Fathers had difference of opinions. For instance, some ecf say that the Book of Hebrews is part of the authentic Word of God. Other ecf say it is not. Since it there is no unanymous opinion among the ecf, this is where the Magisterium of the Catholic Church has to step in. Which itn did, and pope approved the canon of scripture in AD 405, which included the Book of Hebrews.
But since you do not accept the Catholic Magisterium, on what criteria do you accept the Book of Hebrews as part of the Word of God? Is it because the "inner witness of the Holy Spirit" has testified to you that it is part of the Word of God? Then what do you say to the Mormon when he says that the "inner witness of the Spirit" has testified to him that the Book of Mormon is part of the Word of God?
Furthermore, I was taught in the Catholic denomination (perhaps you weren't) that it's the Catholic denomination ALONE that is the SOLE interpreter of this misc. assortment of snippets that the Catholic denomination has labeled "infallible Apostolic Tradition" so that these snippets mean whatever the Catholic denomination infallibly says they mean. Such, I discovered repeatedly, may be significantly different than what the man actually wrote but quickly learned that what he wrote is not authoritative it's what the Catholic denomination itself that infallibly states that the man MEANT to write (whether he did or did not seems rather moot).
As I have tried to show on the forum on every single Catholic doctrine, whether it be Mary the mother of God, Mary the Queen of Heaven, the Eucharist, the priestly Confession, justification by faith and works, that the Catholic position is just as credible as the Protestant position. The Protestants have Bible verses on their side, and so do we. Unfortunattely, that is how far that Protestantism can go. And at the at the end of my Protestant, I became a doctrinal agnostic. I heard all the arguments of all different Protestant positionss, and they ALL seemed credbile from looking at the Bible alone. The Calvinist had some very stromg Biblical arguments for predestination, But Arminians had just as strong Biblical aruments for theirs. Baptists had strong verses for their position on believers' only baptism. But Lutherans and Presbyterians have strong verses for infant baptism as well.
I went to an evangelical seminary that prided itself in giving differing, evangelical viewpoints. When I graduated, I felt like my head was like mush. I did not know what I believed. It took my last year in seminary to finally commit to a denomination. They all made good point for their doctrines. I arbitrarily chose one denonimation, but I had know idea that their statement of faith was any better than others. I preached the Word and said "This is the truth. This is the way it is". But deep down, I had no idea if this was right anymore than someone else's position. Everybody could argue their postion from the Bible. I understood why Fundementalists refused to dialogue with anybody who sees things differently. Ignorance is bliss. How I envied the Fundementalists in their dogmatic ignorance.
I started to have doubt about whether Christianity be true. If the Bible is God's revelation, why did God make the Bible so complicated? Before I went to seminary, I used to preach that interpreting the Bible was simple. I used to think that those who disagreed with me were just not open to God's truth. But then I went to seminary, and I found many well-meaning student and teachers who saw the Bible differently than I did.
If I had continued as a Protestant, I would have eventually become an agnostic. I did not know what I believed. When I left my pastorate, I had no idea what was true. I just knew too much. I remember a friend asking me why I did not pursue another ministry. I told him I no longer kew what I believed. I did not know why I felt that way at that time, but I realized now it was that I was fully exposed to just about every Protestant position that I did not know what end was up.
Then I became a Catholic. As a Catholic, I knew the truth. Jesus said that we shall know the truth and the truth shall set us truth. It is not that there are different truths out there and we can pick one that suits our tastes. No way! Being Catholic, my belief is like a Fundementalist but my attitude is like a liberal. Like a Fundementalist, I know the truth. I no longer look at a passage of scripture and see 5 different ways of interpreting it, depending on your presuppositions. But unlike a Fundementalist, I do not judge those that disagree with me. I do not presume anyone is going to Hell. Not only that, but unlike the Fundementalist, I do not hide in my church away from anyone who may challenge my beliefs. I know the truth, so there is no fear in talking to anyone. There is a quet assurance. I can listen to other beliefs and be threatened, because I know the truth.
I did not feel that way as an Evangelical.
Your point, IMHO, is critical. There is no ecumencially embraced corpus of this "Tradition." The Catholic denomination may look at a work from Origen for example. It will declare one sentence to be "Infallible Apostolic Tradition" but the next sentence is heresy - and so on.
Does this mean that you agree with Origen that Stan will eventually go to heaven? That is what the Catholic Church condemned as heresy.

Well, the epistemology you are defending is that we allow the teacher to be the sole teaching authority, the sole interpreter, the sole arbiter - and to predeclare himself infallible and therefore unaccountable even before the evaluation begins. If it's infallible when the Catholic denomination chooses snippets from here and there and declares it "Infallible Apostolic Tradition" as it alone so defines and interprets, why can it condemn another for doing exactly what it itself insists is infallible and the correct thing to do? Ah, Protestants would say you are BOTH accountable for your self-claims and unique teachings - we give NEITHER the RCC or LDS a "pass." (Or ourselves). We'd say you are BOTH, equally, accountable to God's holy inerrant written Word - a Rule outside you both, above you both. Written so that neither of you can altar it and so that it's knowable to both of you. And since you both agree that your self chosen snippets are not inerrant per se, we Protestants would hold them all (Catholic and Mormon) up to the INERRANT light of God's Holy Word. We ask you to do the same with us.
I want to give you an illustration.
A Protestant friend of mine once preached about absolute truth, and compared it to baseball. Imagine playing a professional baseball game with an umpire. Each person will then make up the rules to suit himself. This is why we need someone outside the game to call the shots. We need an Umpire, which is God.
But his ananlogy was wrong. God was not the Umpire. God was just the ultimate Baseball Commisioner in the sky. And one day He dropped a book that had all the rules for baseball. It explained what is a strike, what is a ball, what is a foul ball.etc. He dropped it from the sky and said "OK boys! Here is the book in all the rules. Read it. Figure it out. And play ball!". That is the Protestant view. The baseball players are playing ball based on their reading of this book. Does it work? Of course not! Although each player will not make his own rules to suit him, but he will interpret those rules to suit him. Although all the players can agree on what is a strike, they cannot agree on which balls were strike. The batter will say that every pitched ball is outside the strike zone. The pitch will see every ball in the strike zone.
In order to play a serious baseball game, we need an umpire on the field, not just a Baseball Commissioner dropping a book from the sky. This umpire will be on the field. He will take those rules in the book and apply the rule partcularly to each pitch. It is not enough to just have book, we need to have God give us an umpire to call the balls and strikes.

So why are they equal or above God's inerrant Word in authority and normative function?
God's inerrant, written word of God call the church the pillar and foundation of truth.
The Bible's ultimate source is God. But God brought about the Bible through the Church. The Bible was written by thev apostles, who were members of the Church. The Bible was written to members of the Church. We have no original documents of the Bible. All the OT and NT originals are decayed away. The only way we have the Bible is because monks within the Church constantly made new copies once the old copies started to decay.
It was the Church that canonized the Bible. In the first few centuries, there were 19 different gospels. The Church reject all of then expect for four - the gospels we have today in the Bible. In AD 405, this was approved by the Pope, with these 4 gospels. If you believe that the Catholic Church, with its Pope, fallible. Then be consistent. Accept the possibilty than some or all of the gospels should not be in the Bible. Accept the possibilty that some of the 16 gospels should have been in the Bible. Maybe the Gospel of Thomas should be in the Bible! Or maybe the Gospel of Mary Magdeline! How do you know? Have you ever read these gospels?
With all due respect, you want it both ways. You want to reject the Church, but you want to accept the Bible that came from the Church.
 
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