Guess the heresy...

[heirmiles]

Christian clergy must be faultless for their ministry to be effective and their prayers and sacraments to be valid.

I'm just wondering. When concerned over our testimony, do we feel/believe we have to be blameless
in our conduct in order to have a valid ministry?

And do we therefore believe that those in ministry must also be perfect and virtually without sin?

And if we find that there is sin should we then exclude them from the church and ministry?

What then is our sliding scale as to what is appropriate as far as the type of sin committed that should lead to
ministerial forfeiture concerning all types of ministry; Particularly when all sin regardless of this scale leads to and
is worthy of death?

 

[heirmiles]

Simple rebuttal....

1 John 1:9
If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

 

[chevyontheriver]

Christian clergy must be faultless for their ministry to be effective and their prayers and sacraments to be valid.

I'm just wondering. When concerned over our testimony, do we feel/believe we have to be blameless
in our conduct in order to have a valid ministry?

And do we therefore believe that those in ministry must also be perfect and virtually without sin?

And if we find that there is sin should we then exclude them from the church and ministry?

What then is our sliding scale as to what is appropriate as far as the type of sin committed that should lead to
ministerial forfeiture concerning all types of ministry; Particularly when all sin regardless of this scale leads to and
is worthy of death?

That would be Donatism. Your ministry is worthless because you sinned once.

 

[SavedByGrace3]

Christian clergy must be faultless for their ministry to be effective and their prayers and sacraments to be valid.

Then there will be no valid clergy. Clergy, like all believers, are human and need to show their people that they require forgiveness and grace by example. Do not lead them to believe you are perfect. You are not. But you know how to maintain a relationship with the Father by the gospel and the grace He has provided for us. That is true ministry.

 

[com7fy8]

Our Apostle Paul says a bishop must be "blameless" > 1 Timothy 3:1-10.

I understand this means how God's love cures our character to become "blameless". It is not only about not sinning, then. But the man has matured in the process of taking care of his family and learning how to relate well with his wife. And this has been his seminary . . . growing and learning how to love.

And we have >

"nor as being lords over those entrusted to you, but being examples to the flock." (1 Peter 5:3)

So, yes there is example needed of confessing and being forgiven of sins. And he can share his example and experience of how God has been correcting him . . . not only confessing, then, but becoming corrected into how Jesus is and loves.

 

[All Becomes New]

1) No person alive today is sinless.
2) The Apostles sinned (Paul called out Peter, for example)
3) There are Biblical lines that one can cross to forfeit their role as a pastor or whatever.
4) Given 3, read the Bible to see which bars you from ministry and which does not.
5) I like @com7fy8's post. I felt that was right on the nose.

 

[ViaCrucis]

Donatism is a dangerous heresy, for it looks to the ability of the lowly sinful servant, rather than the ability of the good and gracious Lord.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[fhansen]

The clergy, teachers, are and should be held to a higher standard-James 3:1. But no one attains impeccabilty in this life. And some church leaders will fail miserably at times.

 

[The Liturgist]

That would be Donatism. Your ministry is worthless because you sinned once.

Also, the Novatians were in some respects proto-Donatist, and we also see proto-Donatism in the rigorism of Tertullian and in his rationale for embracing the Montanist heresy, you might agree?

 

[The Liturgist]

Given 3, read the Bible to see which bars you from ministry and which does not.

Indeed, the canons of the early church reflected this. For example, a man who castrates himself without medical necessity (and by extention, trans-sexual individuals that have had genital-mutilating surgery that renders them incapable of reproduction) are disqualified according to Canon I of the Council of Nicaea.

 

[The Liturgist]

I'm just wondering. When concerned over our testimony, do we feel/believe we have to be blameless
in our conduct in order to have a valid ministry?

This is my main objection to the early Waldensian movement: they declared that any righteous man could preside over the sacraments. The problem with that argument is that there are no truly righteous men in the Church Militant.

Now, in the Church Triumphant we have the exceptions of our Lord, God and Savior, who fully Man, having put on and glorified our humanity, uniting it to his divinity without change, confusion, separation or division, the same Jesus Christ our Lord, the Only Begotten Son of the Father, Begotten, not Made, before all ages, who is of one essence with the Father, and who is also consubstanatial with us, and who represents the fullness of humanity, being more human than anyone else, and those blessed souls He has saved and glorified through Theosis who reside with Him in Heaven* awaiting the Resurrection and the Life of the World to Come.


*In some cases they reside bodily (St. Elias (Elijah) and St. Moses, who appeared at the Transfiguration on Mount Tabor alongside our Lord to Peter, John and James, and furthermore St. Elisha saw St. Elias being carried up in a chariot of fire, and also possibly St. Enoch, and certainly according to the Eastern Orthodox, Oriental Orthodox, Roman Catholic, Assyrian and some traditional Protestants, our glorious lady Theotokos and Ever Virgin Mary, who was assumed into heaven bodily on the occasion of her death, which makes sense since as the Mother of God she was physically and emotionally more intimate with Christ the Incarnation of God in the person of the Word than anyone else (this is also why we venerate her so intensely; indeed I don’t know if Luther believed in the Assumption, but even he venerated the Theotokos intensely, saying a version of the Hail Mary similiar to the Theotokia in the Orthodox hymns known as Canons, in that it does not contain an intercession**).

** I mention the similarity to Theotokia because my dearly beloved friend @MarkRohfrietsch was under the impression that the Orthodox version of the Hail Mary lacks the intercession. I have reviewed the text, and it doesn’t, however, there are hymns called Theotokia sung at the canons of every Matins, that are very similar to the Lutheran version of the Hail Mary. Those called the Stavrotheotokia sung during Holy Week and Feasts of the Cross are particularly moving and I wanted to mention them to him and to my other Lutheran friends as they might find them of devotional interest.

 

[chevyontheriver]

The clergy, teachers, are and should be held to a higher standard-James 3:1. But no one attains impeccabilty in this life. And some church leaders will fail miserably at times.

The Donatists did not accept the validity of baptism done at the hands of repentant priests who had apostasized in a persecution. Apostasy is terrible, but these people repented and were restored to ministry. Not good enough for the Donatists.

Also, the Novatians were in some respects proto-Donatist, and we also see proto-Donatism in the rigorism of Tertullian and in his rationale for embracing the Montanist heresy, you might agree?

Oh, I agree. Tertullian, the early Tertullian, was informative. But he fell in with the holier than thou crowd of Montanists.

 

[All Becomes New]

The clergy, teachers, are and should be held to a higher standard-James 3:1. But no one attains impeccabilty in this life. And some church leaders will fail miserably at times.

Wow... How does that look when you have a pastor pedo who relapsed... again?

 

[All Becomes New]

Indeed, the canons of the early church reflected this. For example, a man who castrates himself without medical necessity (and by extention, trans-sexual individuals that have had genital-mutilating surgery that renders them incapable of reproduction) are disqualified according to Canon I of the Council of Nicaea.

It's rough to be Origen about now.

 

[chevyontheriver]

The clergy, teachers, are and should be held to a higher standard-James 3:1. But no one attains impeccabilty in this life. And some church leaders will fail miserably at times.

The Donatists did not accept the validity of baptism done at the hands of repentant priests who had apostasized in a persecution. Apostasy is terrible, but these people repented and were restored to ministry. Not good enough for the Donatists.

The reason it even matters is that otherwise there is no way to trust if your baptism is valid, or your confession, or your marriage, or your ordination. Because maybe the minister of those sacraments was a secret scoundrel. How do you know? In fact, given the sorry state of humanity, it might be probable that the one who provided those sacraments to you is enough of a scoundrel that you cannot trust them. The Donatist solution fails.

 

[fhansen]

Wow... How does that look when you have a pastor pedo who relapsed... again?

If God demanded perfection first, there'd be no need of grace, no need for Christ's sacrifice. And where would you draw the line BTW, unless you believe that there are perfectly sinless pastors out there somewhere?

 

[fhansen]

The Donatists did not accept the validity of baptism done at the hands of repentant priests who had apostasized in a persecution. Apostasy is terrible, but these people repented and were restored to ministry. Not good enough for the Donatists.

The reason it even matters is that otherwise there is no way to trust if your baptism is valid, or your confession, or your marriage, or your ordination. Because maybe the minister of those sacraments was a secret scoundrel. How do you know? In fact, given the sorry state of humanity, it might be probable that the one who provided those sacraments to you is enough of a scoundrel that you cannot trust them. The Donatist solution fails.

Which is why the Catholic church teaches that even sacraments ministered by a priest in mortal sin are valid.

 

[All Becomes New]

If God demanded perfection first, there'd be no need of grace, no need for Christ's sacrifice. And where would you draw the line BTW, unless you believe that there are perfectly sinless pastors out there somewhere?

That is abusive.

 

[fhansen]

That is abusive.

Hmm-ok?

 

[David Lamb]

That is abusive.

Sorry, although I don't always agree with fhansen's posts, I can't see anything abusive in the one you were replying to. Can you explain why you thought it was abusive? Thanks.