grave (mortal) sin

[kimber1]

me again can someone explain what grave or mortal sins are? are there differnet "levels" of sin so to speak? i'm not sure i'm asking this question right. i've just heard the term mortal sin and just wanted some clarification. thanks

 

[Aaron-Aggie]

me again can someone explain what grave or mortal sins are? are there differnet "levels" of sin so to speak? i'm not sure i'm asking this question right. i've just heard the term mortal sin and just wanted some clarification. thanks

Kimber:
Check out http://www.kofc.org/publications/cis/catechism/getsection.cfm?partnum=3&SecNum=1&ChapNum=1&articlenum=8&ParSecNum=0&subSecNum=4&headernum=0&ParNum=1857&ParType=a

Here is the short:

1854 Sins are rightly evaluated according to their gravity. The distinction between mortal and venial sin, already evident in Scripture, 129 became part of the tradition of the Church. It is corroborated by human experience.


1855 Mortal sin destroys charity in the heart of man by a grave violation of God's law; it turns man away from God, who is his ultimate end and his beatitude, by preferring an inferior good to him. Venial sin allows charity to subsist, even though it offends and wounds it.

 

[Benedicta00]

Baltimore catechism strikes again.

Mortal sin kills the life of grace in our soul where as venial weakens our soul like a sickness weakens your body.

Mortal sin is a serious offense that you have knowledge of it being a serious offense, like abortion, we all know that is grave, and you give full consent of your will over to committing it.

Venal sin is not a serious offense like being impatient in a grocery store line thinking you run the universe and all these people should just move out your way. It usually it is a imperfection we struggle with but venal sin also can be a serious offense that you honestly did not know it was or you did not consent to committing the act, you were forced to so even though it is serious matter, it is not mortal.

 

[MichaelFJF]

Mortal sin is defined by St. Augustine (Contra Faustum, XXII, xxvii) as "Dictum vel factum vel concupitum contra legem æternam", i.e. something said, done or desired contrary to the eternal law, or a thought, word, or deed contrary to the eternal law. This is a definition of sin as it is a voluntary act. As it is a defect or privation it may be defined as an aversion from God, our true last end, by reason of the preference given to some mutable good. The definition of St. Augustine is accepted generally by theologians and is primarily a definition of actual mortal sin. It explains well the material and formal elements of sin. The words "dictum vel factum vel concupitum" denote the material element of sin, a human act: "contra legem æternam", the formal element. The act is bad because it transgresses the Divine law. St. Ambrose (De paradiso, viii) defines sin as a "prevarication of the Divine law". The definition of St. Augustine strictly considered, i.e. as sin averts us from our true ultimate end, does not comprehend venial sin, but in as much as venial sin is in a manner contrary to the Divine law, although not averting us from our last end, it may be said to be included in the definition as it stands. While primarily a definition of sins of commission, sins of omission may be included in the definition because they presuppose some positive act (St. Thomas, I-II:71:5) and negation and affirmation are reduced to the same genus. Sins that violate the human or the natural law are also included, for what is contrary to the human or natural law is also contrary to the Divine law, in as much as every just human law is derived from the Divine law, and is not just unless it is in conformity with the Divine law.

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/14004b.htm

 

[Acceptance]

There are two types of sins: mortal and venial. -- They were both previously described well so I won't restate the definitions of each, however I will give you the following example:

The Catholic church does not believe that God will punish someone who kills and rapes millions (i.e. Saddam) the same way He will punish someone who drives 60mph in a 55mph zone. Hopefully that helps you see where the idea that there are different types of sins comes into play.

 

[kimber1]

okay this is probably a 'duh' question..but the mortal sins....if we confess these though and ask forgiveness, we're still still forgiven them right? and then at the Judgement seat..okay wait. this might be getting into purgatory. is purgatory to y'all where we're cleansed of the sins we've done prior right? and then the Judgement seat is where we lose or receive rewards or crowns right? sorry if i'm being confusing!

 

[marciadietrich]

okay this is probably a 'duh' question..but the mortal sins....if we confess these though and ask forgiveness, we're still still forgiven them right? and then at the Judgement seat..okay wait. this might be getting into purgatory. is purgatory to y'all where we're cleansed of the sins we've done prior right? and then the Judgement seat is where we lose or receive rewards or crowns right? sorry if i'm being confusing!

Hi there,

Here is an area that my Assemblies of God upbringing helped. They believed that there were sins which were "grave" and if you died without confessing those you could be ****** (not go to heaven - darn censor software, lol) , where there were other smaller sins that would not send you to hell. Also, they believed in backsliding, that if you didn't live your Christian life you could slip away from salvation.

One big verse used on this is in 1 John 5 where he speaks of sin that leads to death and sin that does not. Also, common sense and even the Ten Commandments indicate there are sins which can be greater or more serious.

Think others spoke of mortal sin seperating us from sanctifying grace (or an 'unsaved' state). So those are sins that Catholic must confess to the priest. You can and should make an act of contrition immediately to God, then the confession to the priest is the formal reconciliation to the Body of Christ. Our sins as Christians - even those private sins that seem to only effect us - actually harm the whole body. So we must do penance (a repair and prevention of future sin process, it is facing up to consequences of sin) and then we are reconciled. So confession has three aspects: confessing sins, doing penance to make things right and to help us avoid the sin in the future and reconciliation to the Body of Christ.

How does this apply to purgatory? Okay, purgatory is for those who are "saved" - so there is no unforgiven mortal sin going in. You might have had venial sins which those are immediately forgiven (to my understanding) and then purgatory's purpose is to finish the penance phase - the sin is forgiven but there are those temporal consequences or punishments (facing up to those forgiven sins) that have to be completed. This is the final purifying before entering heaven where no unclean thing can enter.

Not to jump ahead too much, but indulgences help stamp out those penances/temporal penalties. Indulgences don't forgive sin, never did. They can be offered up not only for yourself, but for those in purgatory.

As always, being a fairly new convert, any corrections or additions are welcome from those in the know.

Marcia

 

[kimber1]

Not to jump ahead too much, but indulgences help stamp out those penances/temporal penalties. Indulgences don't forgive sin, never did. They can be offered up not only for yourself, but for those in purgatory.

okay, i'm glad you brought that up! what exactly are indulgences? i thought the concept of indulgences was no longer in effect or that there was some big controversy about them way back when?? i jsut remember hearing the word

 

[Benedicta00]

Kimber,

This is probably more info than you asked for so forgive me.

Once God forgives a mortal sin in confession it is forgiven and forgotten. Confession is there to aid us in contrition.

The actual belief is that God forgives sinners no matter if you are Catholic Protestant, the man on the moon, he forgives who is truly sorry off the bat with out confession.

Those who are perfectly contrite, who have a sorrow for the purest most unselfish reason that has nothing to do with the person worrying about his own self, what happens to him, but a sorrow that is purely out of love for God and sorrow for what our sin does to him which is offends him greatly will go straight to heaven. Because the bible says 'love covers a multitude of sin.' The sin is forgiven and the punishment due is atoned for by perfect love.

But as fallen human beings with original sin we can not say that we have perfect love for God and one another and we can not know with 100% certainty that we have perfect sorrow for our sins and not sorrow for screwing ourselves up but sorrow because we hurt God so for this reason we must confess. Even if you have learn from on high that you are truly perfect in sorrow and love which would be something since none of us are perfect people, but if you do get this revelation then you still are required to confess as a precept of the Church.

With that said the rest of us who have imperfect contrition, in confession our contrition is acceptable to God because it is backed by the faith of the entire Church. In mass you’ll hear “look not on our sins but on the faith of your Church and grant us the peace and unity of your kingdom where you live and reign forever and ever, amen.” We confess, we do penance and we are forgiven the sin never to have it held against us again.

So that is why we go to confession. Now to answer your question, we are forgiven when we confess 100% but imperfect contrition does not remove the punishment due to sin. The sin is gone but the effects are there and we must repair our brokeness before we enter heaven. We were wounded in the fall; we have these big wounds that need to heel. The wound of ignorance (why we don’t do the good we want and we do the evil we don’t want), the wounds of impatience, impulse, etc and we need to heal them with grace and mercy.

So when we die we will be judged with absolute justice and all that we have done or failed to do will be revealed and we will go to our reward which is hell, heaven or purgatory. When in purgatory you are then OSAS, you know you will be in heaven with a 100% certainty, you can not do anything at this point to lose salvation, it is yours.

Sins do not get forgiven in purgatory; the soul removes the dirt the sin left behind, it heals the wounds of original sin, that’s all. Mortal sin that has not be repented for where the person rejects the conviction of the Holy Spirit that will bring him to repentance goes willingly to hell because he has closed himself off to mercy and grace and God allows his heart to harden against Him.

The protestant understanding is that we will be covered in Christ righteousness and so there will be no need of perfecting our own soul, that we traded our imperfections in for Christ’s perfection when we were born again. That is why Protestants do not believe works are seen as merit but something that saved people do and they are only the side effect of Christianity. Not true. Works gain eternal merit- not by earning forgiveness but by further sanctifying the soul, by further sustaining it in sanctifying grace, IOW it advances the soul in perfection.

That is a vast difference in the Protestant thinking, I know. Catholics believe that when Jesus said we must be perfect because our father is perfect that he meant it. We will be made perfect by God’s mercy and grace either in this life or the next through repentance, penance and purification.

Does any of this answer your question or did I just ramble on?

 

[BAChristian]

As everyone has noted, I'd like to summarize:

Venial are sins that are "small" sins, so to speak. We know that there are multiple levels of sin, because the Bible speaks of it, right?

So venial are like what Shelb said, being impatient, getting a little angry with people because you're a little too impatient...but you don't go as far as actually jumping on people's cases...

Mortal sin is like Shelb said, i.e. abortion, you tell your sister off because she just ripped your sweater, you gave consent and you knew to do good and you didn't do it and so thus you sinned...

The thing to remember, is not get wrapped up in all of the, "Oh, well, is this a venial? So is this a mortal? Oh no, if this is a mortal, and I don't think it is, and I don't confess, am I going to hell?", and then before you know it Satan has you all in a big tangled mess and you just give up and you live by the, "all sin is the same no matter what" notion that most Protestant churches teach.

The real goal here is for you to listen to Christ speak in your life and to grow stronger as you now notice those little things that you need to work on...that's the main difference with converts and this whole topic of sin. You have to start realizing that you sin a lot...a lot is venial, and you might not even realize you did, depending on how strong you are with Christ anyway...

You'll know, as you grow in Him what you're supposed to do. You'll know that standing in line at the grocery store tapping your foot so to speak waiting for that little old lady to hurry up with the little "pocketbook" full of change, is probably a show of impatience. And you'll probably catch yourself and think, "Ooops, maybe I should work on my impatience..." (venial)

Versus

Someone flips you off as they cut you off on the road, and instead of smiling and laughing at them, you return the favor and decide to cut him off and you flip him off as well. (mortal)

The whole key here is growing in Christ. As we recognize our faults, we should partake in the Sacrament of Reconciliation as a means to draw us closer to God by receiving his sanctifying grace -- which we only receive in the Sacraments...(help me here Shelb if I'm wrong with sanctifying vs. non-sanctifying)

We don't have to confess our venial sins, or as I call them, our imperfections, but the Church does encourage us to do so...

Well why? Because confessing our venial sins allow us to grow stronger. I think, if we can reduce our venial sins in our life, then we will be purer in God's eyes...and we won't want to sin and commit mortal sin...we will be stronger not to...

And that's the whole purpose to confession...to draw us closer to God -- not to make us feel horrible...God is a God of love...

 

[kimber1]

Does any of this answer your question or did I just ramble on?

oh you're all doing fine in answering me!!! okay but i'm still confused on indulgences adn also, BA you mentioned the Sacrament of Reconciliation. is that what confession is? (hoping i don't sound like a complete moron) i'm trying to learn y'all!! bear with me!!

 

[marciadietrich]

okay, i'm glad you brought that up! what exactly are indulgences? i thought the concept of indulgences was no longer in effect or that there was some big controversy about them way back when?? i jsut remember hearing the word

Hi again

First the controversy was during the time of Martin Luther, there were corrupt clergy who were selling indulgences. That was an abuse, Luther was correct to point that out, and the corrupt process was stamped out. Luther in leaving the Church went a step further and eliminated indulgences and really I'd say the concepts of mortal vs. venial sin.

AntiCatholic sources will try to say that an indulgence is used to forgive sins, it isn't. So there was never any sale of forgiveness of sin because that isn't what an indulgence does.

Indulgences remove those temporary effects/penalties of sin which are already forgiven. You cannot receive an indulgence unless you are in a state of grace (you cannot have an unforgiven and unconfessed mortal sin). Catholics believe that we are interrelated to all the body of Christ, all our brothers and sisters here on earth, in purgatory and those in heaven. We can obtain an indulgence through prayer to help remit a temporal penalty of someone in purgatory and speed the process of their purification so they can be in God's presence. It is a very communal and almost truly physical belief in the Body of Christ as a reality.

This is a lot to learn at once, don't expect to understand it all at once. Here is a link for you that might help somewhat.

http://www.ewtn.com/Devotionals/mercy/what.htm

If you are still shaky on mortal sin vs. venial sin and that in contrast to the effects of having sin which is what penance involves, then it will take that step of understanding to really understand indulgences. Don't worry if you don't get it immediately.

Marcia

 

[Benedicta00]

oh you're all doing fine in answering me!!! okay but i'm still confused on indulgences adn also, BA you mentioned the Sacrament of Reconciliation. is that what confession is? (hoping i don't sound like a complete moron) i'm trying to learn y'all!! bear with me!! [/font]

Reconciliation is the same thing as confession and indulgences are like penances in a way. You say a rosary or read the bible and you can apply that merit to your purgatory or to the souls that are there.

 

[boughtwithaprice]

okay, i'm glad you brought that up! what exactly are indulgences? i thought the concept of indulgences was no longer in effect or that there was some big controversy about them way back when?? i jsut remember hearing the word

Glad you asked!!

To understand indulgences, you need to understand the difference between temporal punishment and eternal punishment. Christ's death on the cross forgives us of all eternal punishment due our sins. (i.e. we won't go to hell if we are forgiven), but there still remains a temporal punishment that must be paid, else God could be accused of being an evil judge (one that calls evil good, and good evil.)
This is a fascinating subject, and I would enjoy discussing it, but I am also a new convert, like marcia. I don't want to give anybody wrong information and would appreciate input from those more knowledgeable.

 

[Benedicta00]

Jerome,

You touch on something important in understanding that Catholic view and that is satisfaction for sin. We do pence because our sins hurt us, God, or someone else and we must make satisfaction for that.

I know Protestants are scandalized by that and it is because they do not understand that we do not mean eternal satisfaction. Jesus died and makes satisfaction for our sins.

Here’s the break down in how it works. John the Baptist says, "Behold the lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world" not sins.

Jesus makes satisfaction for Adam's sin and the gates of mercy are wide open and all men now have the hope of salvation. They only need to accept Christ, come to believe and receive the gift of faith and they are reconciled back to God through baptism.

Once reconciled, there still is this brokeness, these wounds of original sin. The eternal effects which is hell has been atoned for by Christ but the effects that our sins create for us and our word around us remain. Our world and our life to some degree is screwed up from our sins, just plain. So we do penance to repair for that damage.

We sin, we ask God to forgive us and Jesus offers himself up for our personal offense and the eternal punishment is gone but we still have to atone for the mess it made and we do that by making reparation for the sin and we can even make reparation for other's sins too that offend God.

It is all about satisfying divine justice, God hates sin and is offended by it and we hurt people and ourselves and although we are forgiven the sin, because Jesus died to open the gates of mercy, we won’t go to hell, we still have to make amends. That is what the act of contrition prayer says, “ I promise with the help of your grace to sin no more and to AMEND MY LIFE.”

We can't just think we can sin be forgiven and go to heaven while we left this big mess that our sins made down here. I like to think of it as just taking responsibility for your life and owning your mess and fixing it. We can do that because we have the grace of God. When in sanctifying grace we have the divine power of grace to transcend our fallen nature and do the right thing but never apart from Christ. As he said “remain in me, apart from me you can do nothing.”

 

[Benedicta00]

BA Christian,

That was a good post, I feeling convicted of my imperfections!

 

[BAChristian]

BA you mentioned the Sacrament of Reconciliation. is that what confession is?

Yeah, like Shelb stated -- it's just another word for confession.

But Reconciliation is better really...get that in your mind to always use that term. Confession makes it sound like you're drudingly walking over to the priest with your head held in shame because you did something wrong...Reconciliation, on the other hand, makes you feel good, because you're reconciling with God...you're making it right by accepting the penance that the Priest imposes in order to "clean up the mess" and to show God that you're willing to do something as a means of repentance.

You're saying to the Priest, please absolve me from my sin and give me a little task to do so that I can show my Lord just how much I love Him.

The Lord loves to see this and he gives you grace, the Priest gives you a penance, you pray a short prayer, and you walk off feeling refreshed and you can't wait to please your Lord through the penance...

The act of contrition is your heart speaking out to God...

Hope that helps...

 

[Benedicta00]

Confession venal sins is a good idea because the grace that comes to us through the sacrament is the power of Christ going to Hades and breaking the power of sin. It helps deliver us from our habitual sins that we are prone to.

 

[ProCommunioneFacior]

Jerome,

You touch on something important in understanding that Catholic view and that is satisfaction for sin. We do pence because our sins hurt us, God, or someone else and we must make satisfaction for that.

I know Protestants are scandalized by that and it is because they do not understand that we do not mean eternal satisfaction. Jesus died and makes satisfaction for our sins.

Here’s the break down in how it works. John the Baptist says, "Behold the lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world" not sins.

Jesus makes satisfaction for Adam's sin and the gates of mercy are wide open and all men now have the hope of salvation. They only need to accept Christ, come to believe and receive the gift of faith and they are reconciled back to God through baptism.

Once reconciled, there still is this brokeness, these wounds of original sin. The eternal effects which is hell has been atoned for by Christ but the effects that our sins create for us and our word around us remain. Our world and our life to some degree is screwed up from our sins, just plain. So we do penance to repair for that damage.

We sin, we ask God to forgive us and Jesus offers himself up for our personal offense and the eternal punishment is gone but we still have to atone for the mess it made and we do that by making reparation for the sin and we can even make reparation for other's sins too that offend God.

It is all about satisfying divine justice, God hates sin and is offended by it and we hurt people and ourselves and although we are forgiven the sin, because Jesus died to open the gates of mercy, we won’t go to hell, we still have to make amends. That is what the act of contrition prayer says, “ I promise with the help of your grace to sin no more and to AMEND MY LIFE.”

We can't just think we can sin be forgiven and go to heaven while we left this big mess that our sins made down here. I like to think of it as just taking responsibility for your life and owning your mess and fixing it. We can do that because we have the grace of God. When in sanctifying grace we have the divine power of grace to transcend our fallen nature and do the right thing but never apart from Christ. As he said “remain in me, apart from me you can do nothing.”

I think that this is Scripture that supports what Shelb is talking about. Here is Paul, saying that he is suffering for the Church, in a sense doing penance for others. Correct?

Colossians 1

24 Now I rejoice in my sufferings for your sake, and in my flesh I am filling up what is lacking in the afflictions of Christ on behalf of his body, which is the church,

 

[Cathologetics]

Great explanations guys! Those were awesome! There was a post on this forum that I thought showed the sins very simply. It was something to do with a line of people putting out a fire (it might have been by JeffreyLloyd). Maybe someone tagged it?

As for indulgences, I never really understood that very well. But it is not a necessity of our faith anyway.