God's sovereignty and the role of the Trinity in Genesis 1

[Jamdoc]

So, while most people acknowledge the Trinity in Genesis 1 through a few things:

Genesis 1:

26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

and

2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

Which people will say is the Holy Spirit in the Trinity as opposed to God the Father and God the Son.

But I think there's more than that.
John 1

1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 The same was in the beginning with God.
3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.
5 And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.
6 There was a man sent from God, whose name was John.
7 The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe.
8 He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light.
9 That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.
10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.
11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.
12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

Hebrews 1

1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

Colossians 1

12 Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light:
13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:
14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:
15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

So.. on a surface level, most people see God speaking things into being, treating it as a monolithic God who's speaking is the creative action.

But what Genesis 1 actually shows is a little bit different. In some cases you have a Sovereign, who can be the direct causative agent of something happening, or the Sovereign can allow another agent to act and thus be the direct causative agent.

In the scripture above, it is shown that Jesus, God the Son, is the direct causative agent, and God the Father is the Sovereign who allows the Son to create, and that fits with the language of Genesis 1 rather than just "speaking into existence" in most cases.

First there are 2 ways creation is shown in the text, one where it does appear that it is just speaking into existence, or, God was sovereignly allowing something to happen on its own, like a chemical reaction that spontaneously occurs

Genesis 1:

3 And God said, ]b]Let[/b] there be light: and there was light.

Seems like just a command so God (most likely the Father, would be the direct causative agent.. however, it still uses the wording that made me start thinking about this topic in particular
It is "Let" there be light, that is, God allowed it rather than directly caused it. Whether God the Son was the direct causative agent, or, as happens in physics normally, light emission is a spontaneous reaction from certain processes in matter to energy conversions.. the language does not directly say from this particular verse, however in the following verse, God is a direct causative agent:

4 And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness.

God observed, made a judgement, and then performed an action directly. This would most likely be God the Son, as new testament scripture identifies the Son as the causative agent.

Another case is separating the land and water into the sea:

9 And God said, Let the waters under the heaven be gathered together unto one place, and let the dry land appear: and it was so.
10 And God called the dry land Earth; and the gathering together of the waters called he Seas: and God saw that it was good.

So again, the command is to allow something to happen, but no direct causative agent action is shown, until after it has happened, God makes an observation and names it, and judges it to be good.

and then the Earth bringing forth plants, now this is a very interesting one, because of the direct causative agent in the text being the Earth.

11 And God said, Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb yielding seed, and the fruit tree yielding fruit after his kind, whose seed is in itself, upon the earth: and it was so.
12 And the earth brought forth grass, and herb yielding seed after his kind, and the tree yielding fruit, whose seed was in itself, after his kind: and God saw that it was good.

So again the supreme sovereign allowed this to happen, but God is not shown to be the direct causative agent in this case, it appears to be... the Earth?
But also again New Testament identifies God the Son as the causative agent.


Now the second way creation is shown in the text, and I think these more clearly demonstrate God the Father as the sovereign allowing God the Son to directly create:

6 And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters.

So the Sovereign allows it

7 And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so.

and God as the direct causative agent creates what was allowed by God the Father. In this case it's, with the New Testament applied, God the Son who does this.

next

14 And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years:
15 And let them be for lights in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth: and it was so.

All these commands to allow the direct causative agent to create.

16 And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also.
17 And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth,

and then the act of creating them.

and now I have a question... when it comes to the living beings, the animals and later man, God also bestows a blessing on them. Is this God the Holy Spirit, the third person in the trinity?

20 And God said, Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that hath life, and fowl that may fly above the earth in the open firmament of heaven.

So there's God the Father, again, allowing God the Son to create, that's 1

21 And God created great whales, and every living creature that moveth, which the waters brought forth abundantly, after their kind, and every winged fowl after his kind: and God saw that it was good.

This would be God the Son, doing the act of creating, that's 2

22 And God blessed them, saying, Be fruitful, and multiply, and fill the waters in the seas, and let fowl multiply in the earth.

Is this 3? God the Holy Spirit, providing the blessing? Would that fit in our understanding of God the Holy Spirit?

Here it is again:

26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

God the Father, allowing the creation

27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

God the Son, directly creating them

28 And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.

God the Holy Spirit, blessing them?

Also throughout the passage, God makes judgements on each thing made.. which person of the Trinity makes these judgements that they are good? It would seem logical that God the Father, who gave the instruction to God the Son, would judge His work.
But God the Son is the judge of the quick and the dead, so He could also be the person who judges His own work.
and the Holy Spirit convicts, is that not also an act of judging?
So either of the 3 persons in the Godhead, could be the person judging each creation, or possibly all of them?

But I am maybe going out on a limb here.. that we might see all 3 persons of God at work in creation, through God the Father commanding/allowing, doing the decision making, while God the Son executes and performs the creation, and God the Holy Spirit blesses it, and one, or all of them judges the work and declares it good.

Food for thought I hope at least.

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings Jamdoc,

So, while most people acknowledge the Trinity in Genesis 1 through a few things:

Genesis 1: 26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

There is One God, Yahweh, God the Father and God is here inviting the Angels to participate in the creation of man Psalm 8:5-6.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[Jamdoc]

Greetings Jamdoc,

There is One God, Yahweh, God the Father and God is here inviting the Angels to participate in the creation of man Psalm 8:5-6.

Kind regards
Trevor

but we have God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy spirit.

and having the angels create violates scripture that says Jesus was the creator.

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings again Jamdoc,

we have God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy spirit.

I reject the Trinity as I believe in the One God, Yahweh, God the Father and our Lord Jesus Christ is a human, the Son of God by birth, character and resurrection.

having the angels create violates scripture that says Jesus was the creator.

I suggest that David comments on and expounds Genesis 1:26-27 in Psalm 8:5-6 - Jesus was made a little lower than the Angels. Yahweh, God the Father is the Creator Psalm 8:1-3, Matthew 11:20-25. The Eden Creation was made with Jesus in mind, and the New Creation is made in and through Jesus.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[Jamdoc]

Greetings again Jamdoc,

I reject the Trinity as I believe in the One God, Yahweh, God the Father and our Lord Jesus Christ is a human, the Son of God by birth, character and resurrection.

I suggest that David comments on and expounds Genesis 1:26-27 in Psalm 8:5-6 - Jesus was made a little lower than the Angels. Yahweh, God the Father is the Creator Psalm 8:1-3, Matthew 11:20-25. The Eden Creation was made with Jesus in mind, and the New Creation is made in and through Jesus.

Kind regards
Trevor

That is.. certainly an unorthodox position, as Jesus talked to His Father constantly, and referred to the Holy Spirit as a He, a person.

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings again Jamdoc,

That is.. certainly an unorthodox position, as Jesus talked to His Father constantly

Yes, Jesus was in constant prayer to the One God, Yahweh, God the Father, Jesus' father. Your assertion, if anything, disproves the Trinity for if Jesus was God the Son he would not be dependent on his father. I have a thread "The Yahweh Name" and my initial posts ex[lain some aspects of my overall perspective and give a different view of Exodus 3:14 than is glossed over by Trinitarians. Also Psalm 8 and Psalm 110:1 and Isaiah 6 are the most quoted and expounded OT references in the NT and these clearly dismiss the Trinity, and these are passages that are usually avoided by Trinitarians.

referred to the Holy Spirit as a He, a person.

Jesus often referred to the Holy Spirit, but not as God the Holy Spirit.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[Jamdoc]

Greetings again Jamdoc,

Yes, Jesus was in constant prayer to the One God, Yahweh, God the Father, Jesus' father. Your assertion, if anything, disproves the Trinity for if Jesus was God the Son he would not be dependent on his father. I have a thread "The Yahweh Name" and my initial posts ex[lain some aspects of my overall perspective and give a different view of Exodus 3:14 than is glossed over by Trinitarians. Also Psalm 8 and Psalm 110:1 and Isaiah 6 are the most quoted and expounded OT references in the NT and these clearly dismiss the Trinity, and these are passages that are usually avoided by Trinitarians.

Jesus often referred to the Holy Spirit, but not as God the Holy Spirit.

Kind regards
Trevor

So you're rejecting Jesus as being God?

When Jesus put Himself as the Lord God in old testament passages?

Matthew 24

27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

draws from Zechariah 9

14 And the Lord shall be seen over them, and his arrow shall go forth as the lightning: and the Lord God shall blow the trumpet, and shall go with whirlwinds of the south.
15 The Lord of hosts shall defend them; and they shall devour, and subdue with sling stones; and they shall drink, and make a noise as through wine; and they shall be filled like bowls, and as the corners of the altar.
16 And the Lord their God shall save them in that day as the flock of his people: for they shall be as the stones of a crown, lifted up as an ensign upon his land.

when He's saying that the Son of Man will send His angels with the sound of a trumpet, and will come like lightning, He's referring to a passage where "the Lord God" does these things.

The divinity of Christ is a non negotiable point in Christianity.

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings again Jamdoc,

When Jesus put Himself as the Lord God in old testament passages?

Perhaps you need to read my early posts in the thread "The Yahweh Name" as this to some extent explains how the One God, Yahweh, God the Father is revealed in and through Jesus the Son of God, a human, the Son of God by birth, character and resurrection. I am very conscious of Trinitarian syllogisms with many OT passages and possibly you could quote 20-30 of these..

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[Clare73]

So, while most people acknowledge the Trinity in Genesis 1 through a few things:
Genesis 1:
and
Which people will say is the Holy Spirit in the Trinity as opposed to God the Father and God the Son.
But I think there's more than that.
John 1
Hebrews 1
Colossians 1
So.. on a surface level, most people see God speaking things into being, treating it as a monolithic God who's speaking is the creative action.

But what Genesis 1 actually shows is a little bit different. In some cases you have a Sovereign, who can be the direct causative agent of something happening, or the Sovereign can allow another agent to act and thus be the direct causative agent.

In the scripture above, it is shown that Jesus, God the Son, is the direct causative agent, and God the Father is the Sovereign who allows the Son to create, and that fits with the language of Genesis 1 rather than just "speaking into existence" in most cases.

First there are 2 ways creation is shown in the text, one where it does appear that it is just speaking into existence, or, God was sovereignly allowing something to happen on its own, like a chemical reaction that spontaneously occurs

Genesis 1:

Seems like just a command so God (most likely the Father, would be the direct causative agent.. however, it still uses the wording that made me start thinking about this topic in particular
It is "Let" there be light, that is, God allowed it rather than directly caused it. Whether God the Son was the direct causative agent, or, as happens in physics normally, light emission is a spontaneous reaction from certain processes in matter to energy conversions.. the language does not directly say from this particular verse, however in the following verse, God is a direct causative agent:

God observed, made a judgement, and then performed an action directly. This would most likely be God the Son, as new testament scripture identifies the Son as the causative agent.

Another case is separating the land and water into the sea:

So again, the command is to allow something to happen, but no direct causative agent action is shown, until after it has happened, God makes an observation and names it, and judges it to be good.

and then the Earth bringing forth plants, now this is a very interesting one, because of the direct causative agent in the text being the Earth.

So again the supreme sovereign allowed this to happen, but God is not shown to be the direct causative agent in this case, it appears to be... the Earth?
But also again New Testament identifies God the Son as the causative agent.


Now the second way creation is shown in the text, and I think these more clearly demonstrate God the Father as the sovereign allowing God the Son to directly create:

So the Sovereign allows it

and God as the direct causative agent creates what was allowed by God the Father. In this case it's, with the New Testament applied, God the Son who does this.

next

All these commands to allow the direct causative agent to create.

and then the act of creating them.

and now I have a question... when it comes to the living beings, the animals and later man, God also bestows a blessing on them. Is this God the Holy Spirit, the third person in the trinity?

So there's God the Father, again, allowing God the Son to create, that's 1

This would be God the Son, doing the act of creating, that's 2

Is this 3? God the Holy Spirit, providing the blessing? Would that fit in our understanding of God the Holy Spirit?

Here it is again:

God the Father, allowing the creation

God the Son, directly creating them

God the Holy Spirit, blessing them?

Also throughout the passage, God makes judgements on each thing made.. which person of the Trinity makes these judgements that they are good? It would seem logical that God the Father, who gave the instruction to God the Son, would judge His work.
But God the Son is the judge of the quick and the dead, so He could also be the person who judges His own work.
and the Holy Spirit convicts, is that not also an act of judging?
So either of the 3 persons in the Godhead, could be the person judging each creation, or possibly all of them?

But I am maybe going out on a limb here.. that we might see all 3 persons of God at work in creation, through God the Father commanding/allowing, doing the decision making, while God the Son executes and performs the creation, and God the Holy Spirit blesses it, and one, or all of them judges the work and declares it good.
Food for thought I hope at least.

God the Father decrees,
God the Son executes,
God the Holy Spirit applies.

 

[Clare73]

my 2cents:

Inseparable internal operations of the Trinity takes precedent over individual external operations. This doesn't mean external operations don't exist (the incarnation for example) but in the larger scheme the ONE WILL of the Trinity means they all act in unison.

A complex mystery.

Keeping in mind the NT presents particular functions of each.

 

[Ain't Zwinglian]

Keeping in mind the NT presents particular functions of each.

Not at the expense of the one will of God.

A deep divine mystery.

 

[Clare73]

Not at the expense of the one will of God.

A deep divine mystery.

They are all one God, one Being, there is only one will.

It's a matter of function of three separate divine persons, not a matter of will.

 

[Jamdoc]

They are all one God, one Being, there is only one will.

It's a matter of function of three separate divine persons, not a matter of will.

well in flesh, Jesus did have His own will as well, as Gethsemane showed, but He yielded it up to obey the will of the Father.

I guess how I can look at Genesis 1 is that the Father decreed, the Son executed (as He did on Earth, He came by the Father's will to Execute the Father's will and plan), and the Holy Ghost blessed it, and all 3 I could easily see judging, with a unanimous declaration that the creation was good.
All 3 persons in the Godhead are in concurrence, they are one God, but they exist in relationship to each other and this relationship exhibits itself in Genesis 1 very similarly to how they relate to each other in the Gospels and New Testament.

 

[Clare73]

well in flesh, Jesus did have His own will as well, as Gethsemane showed, but He yielded it up to obey the will of the Father.

Jesus was human, the Father and Holy Spirit were not.

I guess how I can look at Genesis 1 is that the Father decreed, the Son executed (as He did on Earth, He came by the Father's will to Execute the Father's will and plan), and the Holy Ghost blessed it,

The Holy Spirit applies it, makes it operative.

 

[Jamdoc]

Jesus was human, the Father and Holy Spirit were not.

The Holy Spirit applies it, makes it operative.

Not sure what you mean by applies it, could you clarify?

 

[Clare73]

Not sure what you mean by applies it, could you clarify?

Sure. . .

The Holy Spirit works in the individual bringing him to salvation (Eph 2:8-9), giving him to will and to do (Php 2:13), illuminating God's word, etc., applying what Christ bought on the cross.

 

[Jamdoc]

Sure. . .

The Holy Spirit works in the individual bringing him to salvation (Eph 2:8-9), giving him to will and to do (Php 2:13), illuminating God's word, etc., applying what Christ bought on the cross.

hmm, well I mostly meant pre-fall, there was no need for salvation in Eden and the original creation and I was thinking along the lines of non human animals as well. In Genesis 1 those were all blessed after they were created, and that I was attributing to the Holy Spirit.

 

[ViaCrucis]

All divine action is Trinitarian action. When we confess in the Apostles' and Nicene Creeds that we believe in one God the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth, it is not the Father at the exclusion of the Son and the Holy Spirit. For Christ is Almighty Creator, and the Spirit also Almighty Creator. Because of the interpenetrative and perichoretic realities of the Trinity, all things which are ascribed to the Father are to the Son and Spirit also; and so on. There remain those hypostatically or personally distinctives, of course: The Father alone is Father, the Son alone is Son, the Spirit alone is Spirit. Which is why we can say the Son alone became Incarnate, the Son alone has assumed humanity by His conception and birth from the Virgin Mary. But the Son is never alone, the Father is in Him even as He is in the Father; and the Spirit is in Him even as He is in the Spirit.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Jamdoc]

All divine action is Trinitarian action. When we confess in the Apostles' and Nicene Creeds that we believe in one God the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth, it is not the Father at the exclusion of the Son and the Holy Spirit. For Christ is Almighty Creator, and the Spirit also Almighty Creator. Because of the interpenetrative and perichoretic realities of the Trinity, all things which are ascribed to the Father are to the Son and Spirit also; and so on. There remain those hypostatically or personally distinctives, of course: The Father alone is Father, the Son alone is Son, the Spirit alone is Spirit. Which is why we can say the Son alone became Incarnate, the Son alone has assumed humanity by His conception and birth from the Virgin Mary. But the Son is never alone, the Father is in Him even as He is in the Father; and the Spirit is in Him even as He is in the Spirit.

-CryptoLutheran

Right but I was looking at the text and there seems to be a pattern of an order/decree followed by an action, at least in some of the creation acts. Rather than just order, and it was thus, order and it was thus, there was sometimes order... and then God did something. Which fits more with 1 person ordering another to do something. God ordering God in other words.
Which I am seeing as Father order, Son execute, because it fits with the new testament passages I gave where Jesus is the executive producer if you'll pardon my terminology it's just the terms that kind of fit.

 

[Ain't Zwinglian]

They are all one God, one Being, there is only one will.

It's a matter of function of three separate divine persons, not a matter of will.

T