God Created Evil

[jas3]

You should be able to easily say "sin is evil."

Sure, but I have a feeling you have attached a bunch of presuppositions to these words (such as them both being existent things) that would be better addressed by just talking about them than trying to play coy with leading questions.

Why would a loving God make a universe where billions of people would suffer eternal hell fire for finite acts of evil, that He not only allowed, but also provided the only means to do so? (No tree of Knowledge, no sin)

Free will folks will jump at this question, "Because He had to give us free will, because if you have no choices, you are simply a robot, and that is not true love"

I wouldn't suggest that it's not "true love" to make a creature without free will. I don't think God made animals or plants or rocks without true love. And I don't see what the existence of hell has to do with whether or not God created evil.

Yeah, yeah, we've heard it all before. Here's the problem: There is no free will in eternal heaven. There will be no option or choice to sin in Heaven, so for all eternity, we will be relieved of those choices, and not one free will advocate cries out about the injustice of Heaven.

They will retort.... "It's not that we won't have a choice to sin in Heaven, it's that we won't have the DESIRE to sin in Heaven"

Yep.

Adam and Eve had many choices in the Garden of Eden, they could do as they pleased as long as they DID NOT partake of the Tree of Knowledge. They had NO desire to do so, until they were tempted.

Correct. That still doesn't make evil a created thing.

The beginning state is just as the last state (eternity) and people are blind to this obvious truth. Why?

What obvious truth? You're skipping a few steps here. If you mean that people will be redeemed and restored from the Fall, that's a well-known fact. Again, this isn't really related to whether or not God created evil, or whether evil is even a creation.

 

[PastorKeith]

Correct. That still doesn't make evil a created thing.

You keep saying evil is not a thing.... if you mean, it does not have physical dimensions, I agree, but what does that have to do with existing? Is love a thing that exists? Does human emotion "exist"? Did God create human emotions? If you say God created Humans and they just happen to display emotions, I will need you to back that up with scripture.

When a man massacres 10 people with a machete, everyone can look at that and see evil. Yet you say evil is not a created thing. You agree evil is "something" I assume. The Bible says: All things were made through him, and without him was not any thing made that was made.

Notice it doesn't say All physical things, or All tangible things.... it says ALL things

 

[Strong in Him]

If you can bring yourself to this point you are almost home. Now if human sin is evil, where did human sin originate?
A common answer would be the Garden of Eden, and Adam's choice to disobey God and eat the forbidden fruit.

And that would be correct.

God created the tree of knowledge of Good and Evil, and placed it in the Garden. God knew Adam would partake, God knew sin (evil) would enter the world and God knew His Son would be sent to the cross. He knew all of this before the first day of creation, and yet He still created things as recorded in the Bible.

Yes - so?

So now we are faced with a difficult question:

Why would a loving God make a universe where billions of people would suffer eternal hell fire for finite acts of evil, that He not only allowed, but also provided the only means to do so? (No tree of Knowledge, no sin)

Free will folks will jump at this question, "Because He had to give us free will, because if you have no choices, you are simply a robot, and that is not true love"

And that, imo, is correct.
If you had a child, would you want them to say "I love you Daddy" because you told them/brought them up to say it and because they were scared they would be punished if they didn't? Or would you want them to say it because they meant it; because they appreciated you and were thankful for all that you did?

Yeah, yeah, we've heard it all before.

And are you listening?

Here's the problem: There is no free will in eternal heaven.

That may be the case - but we are not in heaven.
We are on this earth for however many years; mortal, fallible human beings, trying to find answers, and purpose, in life, standing up for our faith etc.
We are human beings, made in God's image and with the ability to choose - do I eat healthy food, or not; work at this job, or that one? Go to church or not? Read the Bible and accept Jesus, find some other faith or none at all?

Adam and Eve had many choices in the Garden of Eden, they could do as they pleased as long as they DID NOT partake of the Tree of Knowledge. They had NO desire to do so, until they were tempted.

Eve ate the fruit because she was deceived by the serpent. She hadn't heard God's command for herself and was unable to repeat it properly, cf Genesis 2:17; Genesis 3:3.
Adam ate the fruit because it looked good. Maybe he thought "well, Eve hasn't died, so it can't be that bad"; who knows? It was he who heard the command from God not to eat the fruit; he disobeyed.

Because they feel the need to defend a Mighty God who needs no defense. He is who He says He is and does what pleases Him for His glory.

I heard a sermon once on all the things that God CAN'T do. And one of them was that he can't go against his nature.

God is love; love does not delight in evil. God is perfect, God is a loving heavenly Father who would not give his children a stone when they ask for bread. I'm not giving the Scriptures for all these; I've done it already and you've ignored them.
This is what is revealed in God's word about God's nature.

Do you believe this about God? Or do you think that God inspired John to write "God is love" knowing that he is nothing of the kind?
Can we know God through his word, or do we have to accept that he says one thing and does another; acts on a whim and then says "I can do what I like?"
Can we have faith, and confidence, that God is who he says he is, or are we always going to be anxious in case he changes his mind one day, and then changes it back again?

 

[PastorKeith]

That may be the case - but we are not in heaven.
We are on this earth for however many years; mortal, fallible human beings, trying to find answers, and purpose, in life, standing up for our faith etc.
We are human beings, made in God's image and with the ability to choose - do I eat healthy food, or not; work at this job, or that one? Go to church or not? Read the Bible and accept Jesus, find some other faith or none at all?

That is what you say.

But this is what the Bible says.... in James 4

13 Come now, you who say, “Today or tomorrow we will go into such and such a town and spend a year there and trade and make a profit”— 14 yet you do not know what tomorrow will bring. What is your life? For you are a mist that appears for a little time and then vanishes. 15 Instead you ought to say, “If the Lord wills, we will live and do this or that.” 16 As it is, you boast in your arrogance. All such boasting is evil. 17 So whoever knows the right thing to do and fails to do it, for him it is sin.

You are boasting in your arrogance.

 

[PastorKeith]

God is love; love does not delight in evil.

Of course. The question is, why do you believe He is forced to delight in everything He creates? He creates evil, whether moral or natural for His purpose, to Glorify Him. Who are we to question Him or put OUR thoughts of what is good on Him?

But what measure do you know Good?

 

[jas3]

You keep saying evil is not a thing.... if you mean, it does not have physical dimensions, I agree, but what does that have to do with existing?

I partially addressed this in post #110, but evil is only identifiable as an absence or destruction of good. So we can talk about evil in a similar way to talking about darkness or cold. A lack of something doesn't have its own separate existence; if I get robbed of $20, I don't now have some thing in my possession which is a "lack of $20," but I do "lack $20." The $20 actually exists, the lack of it does not.

Does human emotion "exist"? Did God create human emotions?

Yes and yes. My point is not about physical existence, as I hope I've demonstrated.

When a man massacres 10 people with a machete, everyone can look at that and see evil.

Yes.

Yet you say evil is not a created thing. You agree evil is "something" I assume.

No, it's not "something," that's my point, and that's what Christians throughout history have taught. Even though you can perceive a lack of something's proper nature or proper virtue, that doesn't mean that you are perceiving some existent thing; you recognize that something that is supposed to be there is not.

Notice it doesn't say All physical things, or All tangible things.... it says ALL things

I hope I have thoroughly answered that I don't mean "exist" in a physical or tangible sense.

 

[PastorKeith]

I partially addressed this in post #110, but evil is only identifiable as an absence or destruction of good. So we can talk about evil in a similar way to talking about darkness or cold. A lack of something doesn't have its own separate existence; if I get robbed of $20, I don't now have some thing in my possession which is a "lack of $20," but I do "lack $20." The $20 actually exists, the lack of it does not.

Yes and yes. My point is not about physical existence, as I hope I've demonstrated.

Yes.

No, it's not "something," that's my point, and that's what Christians throughout history have taught. Even though you can perceive a lack of something's proper nature or proper virtue, that doesn't mean that you are perceiving some existent thing; you recognize that something that is supposed to be there is not.

I hope I have thoroughly answered that I don't mean "exist" in a physical or tangible sense.

I thought I made clear, that physical or tangible is irrelevant.

When the man massacres the 10 people with the machete, that is not the absence of Good on display, that is the very real presence of evil.

I am sure you would agree God COULD have created a universe where the evil has no place.... in fact, we know this, because that is precisely what eternity in Heaven is.... a place where evil is not permitted. Evil then is a portion of His creation that will be burned away and replaced with a new creation that will not allow it.

You have conceded that human emotions exist and were created by God. Things like love, anger, sadness and Joy. All of these things created by God in humans.... in the same way evil was created.

 

[Strong in Him]

That is what you say.

But this is what the Bible says.... in James 4

13 Come now, you who say, “Today or tomorrow we will go into such and such a town and spend a year there and trade and make a profit”— 14 yet you do not know what tomorrow will bring. What is your life? For you are a mist that appears for a little time and then vanishes. 15 Instead you ought to say, “If the Lord wills, we will live and do this or that.” 16 As it is, you boast in your arrogance. All such boasting is evil. 17 So whoever knows the right thing to do and fails to do it, for him it is sin.

You are boasting in your arrogance.

No, I'm not; read the passage.

I said that God gives us the ability to choose. This is clear throughout Scripture.
When Abraham and Lot were going to part company, Abraham told him to choose which way he wanted to go; left, or right.
Moses told the Hebrew slaves, "whoever is on the Lord's side, let him come to me."
Joshua said, "choose, this day, whom you will serve".
Elijah said, "if Baal is god, choose him; if Yahweh is God, choose him."
All the prophets told the people to repent and turn to the Lord; often, the people didn't listen.
Jesus told men to follow him; he didn't make them, and several turned away when things got tough.
Many people have said that God chooses - he chooses us. So if he is able to choose and he made us in his image, why would we not be able to choose?

James does not say that people can't choose.
He is addressing people who boast, "tomorrow we will go here and make money", and not considering that tomorrow may not even come. That reminds me of the parable that Jesus told of the rich man who tore down his barns, built bigger ones and then boasted that he had all that he needed. He was told, "this night, your soul will be taken from you." Both are teaching that we should not act as though it all depends on us, that we are in charge of our own future and don't need God.

My saying "God gave us the ability to choose" has nothing at all to do with that.
Anyone who knows me knows that I'm not at all arrogant - you don't know me.

 

[Strong in Him]

Of course. The question is, why do you believe He is forced to delight in everything He creates?

He's not, and wasn't, forced to delight in anything.
God created and said that everything he had made was "very good", Genesis 1:31. Who forced God to say that?
God said, through the prophet, "he takes great delight in you", Zephaniah 3:17. Who forced God to say that?
Paul said, "he destined us to be adopted as his sons, according to his pleasure and will", Ephesians 1:5. Who was it who forced God to have pleasure in us?

Where did you get the idea that God is forced to do something?

 

[jas3]

I thought I made clear, that physical or tangible is irrelevant.

Yes, we agree on that. I was making sure you didn't think I was talking about a particular kind of existence, or misunderstanding existence to apply only to physical things.

When the man massacres the 10 people with the machete, that is not the absence of Good on display, that is the very real presence of evil.

That's not the absence of good? Can the man be living according to his proper virtue while committing murder?

I am sure you would agree God COULD have created a universe where the evil has no place.... in fact, we know this, because that is precisely what eternity in Heaven is.... a place where evil is not permitted. Evil then is a portion of His creation that will be burned away and replaced with a new creation that will not allow it.

Heaven being a place where evil is excluded doesn't make evil an existent thing. A lit room is a place where darkness is excluded, but that doesn't make darkness some other thing than the absence of light.

 

[BelieveItOarKnot]

We were not created with corruption, dishonour and so on. We were made in God's image, and he declared his creation to be very good.

What makes you think Mark 4:15 did not happen to Adam the moment God spoke to Adam?

Jesus said it happened

And in God's Hands everything can be very good, even if it's bad

 

[BelieveItOarKnot]

Broad strokes, missed the barn.

Cuts to the chase. Nobody home

 

[Gregory Thompson]

Cuts to the chase. Nobody home

Cannot even remember what we were talking about . But if the lights are out and nobody's home, chasing blindly is not advisable.

 

[BelieveItOarKnot]

Cannot even remember what we were talking about . But if the lights are out and nobody's home, chasing blindly is not advisable.

iirc your position makes a fantastical leap of illogic thinking that God gave people the authority to make themselves sinless. Except no one ever succeeded.

 

[Strong in Him]

What makes you think Mark 4:15 did not happen to Adam the moment God spoke to Adam?

What makes you think it did?

Adam was created, Genesis 2:7. He was put in the Garden to take care of it, Genesis 2:15 and told he could eat from any tree except one, Genesis 2:17. Adam named all the animals, Genesis 2:20. God created woman because it was not good for Adam to be alone, Genesis 2:23.

Where does it say that the events of chapter 3 happened on the same day, or immediately after, chapter 2, so that the very first thing that the woman did was to disobey God?
In Genesis 1:31, God looked at all that he had created and it was very good.

 

[BelieveItOarKnot]

What makes you think it did?

Because Jesus said Mark 4:15 happened and still happens

Isn't that reason enough to believe it did? God certainly implicated the devil in the cause of the matters, directly

I could break it down further, but that shouldn't be required if the premise is true

All have sin, Romans 3:9

Sin is "of the devil," 1 John 3:8

IF this formula is true, then there is zero reason to leave the devil out of the pictures of sin in people

In addition to the hard fact that we all know full well (if we are not still blinded by the devil) we engage temptations of the tempter, internally, in our minds. Just as they, Adam and Eve were

 

[Strong in Him]

Because Jesus said Mark 4:15 happened and still happens

He didn't say that this verse happened to Adam, nor that it happened immediately after he was created.

 

[BelieveItOarKnot]

He didn't say that this verse happened to Adam, nor that it happened immediately after he was created.

Well of course Jesus said it happens and happened.

Man shall live by all of God's Words. Matt. 4:4, Luke 4:4, Deut. 8:3

The very next instant after God blessed Adam, with Eve still within, Satan both entered his heart and stole God's Word from him. The lawless one had entered his own mind.

Adam was God's son. Would you consider Adam, as such, a lawless sinner? I'd think not.

Why then was Adam given a law, "do not eat." The law is for the lawless sinners. 1 Tim 1:9

Why was Adam deceived about the law, and couldn't recount it properly to Eve? Why did Eve show that she was deceived in mind prior to actually eating? These are the exact works of the devil, the tempter, the deceiver in the minds of both of them.

And it still works this same way today for everyone. We all engage the tempter, internally

 

[Gregory Thompson]

iirc your position makes a fantastical leap of illogic thinking that God gave people the authority to make themselves sinless. Except no one ever succeeded.

I said no such thing, a strong delusion may have been sent your way so you would believe a lie. I recommend praying about it.

 

[BelieveItOarKnot]

I said no such thing, a strong delusion may have been sent your way so you would believe a lie. I recommend praying about it.

Your short version was that God gave up on involvement on earth and delegated it to either Adam, the devil or both

I'd like to know why you'd seek to remove God from the equations of anything, as a believer