??? glorified bodies??

[ViaCrucis]

I agree that Lazarus is not walking around on this planet today. He was raptured out of this world along with the rest of those who had ever been raised from the dead. Lazarus did NOT die twice. That is an impossibility for a saint, according to those two texts I gave - Hebrews 9:27 and Luke 20:35-36.

Neither of those texts suggest that Lazarus was "raptured".

The resurrection of holy people we see mentioned in Matthew's Gospel is an incredibly ambiguous and nebulous passage. There is simply no way to make deep doctrinal or dogmatic positions using this, as there is so little information to latch on to here.

There certainly may be a connection here with the Harrowing of Hell, but I don't think there is solid enough footing to make a hard claim.

Jesus Christ is called the first fruits of the resurrection.

You have attempted to use Revelation 14:4 to claim that the "144,000" are also "first-fruits" and have connected this with the event mentioned in Matthew.

Except there's no justification for doing this. The 144,000 are described as a first-fruits as an offering to God, not a first-fruits of the resurrection. And there absolutely nothing to connect the 144,000 with those mentioned in Matthew. This is mere naked assertion.

Hebrews 9:27 has nothing to do with whether or not those who were miraculously revived from the dead didn't die again. It simply states that human beings are given a single life to live, we have this life, and when all is said and done we have to stand and give account for that. Lazarus only had one life, and by the Lord's miraculous power He extended Lazarus' life for years to come. As Lazarus would go on to become a bishop in the Church, and would live out his days a faithful servant of Christ, until he died and was buried. And he remains buried in the ground until the Lord's return.

There has been no human person to be raised and glorified except Jesus Christ. When He returns, then the rest of us shall be raised up and transformed, conformed, glorified in the image of the Risen Christ.

Luke 20:35-36 simply states that in the resurrection of the dead the resurrected will not be married nor given in marriage. So I don't know why you think it has any relation to the Matthean saints.

The Scriptures are pretty clear on this: Christ the first-fruits, then at His coming those who belong to Him. And we also read that at the resurrection it is not merely a resurrection of the righteous, but also of the wicked. All must stand before the Throne of Judgment. The righteous shall pass through the fire of judgment by the grace of God in Jesus Christ our Lord to eternal and beatific life in the age to come; and the righteous shall be consumed and face the judgment of the age to come.

The resurrection of Christ on the first Easter Sunday and the resurrection of all the saints at His return are held together, they are in tandem. Paul says that if there is no future resurrection of the dead, then Christ is not risen; likewise if Christ is not risen then there is no future resurrection of the dead. Paul says that what God has done for Christ He will do for us, giving life also to our mortal bodies, the redemption of our bodies. But it is the one Resurrection split between Christ the first-fruits, and then those who belong to Jesus at His Parousia.

There is only one bodily resurrection of the dead, of Jesus Christ our Lord the first-fruits and we ourselves at His return in glory and judgment.

We have, however, in a sense already participated in the resurrection. Through our Baptism (Romans 6:3-4, Colossians 2:12-13, 1 Peter 3:21), by which account we are also said to already be "seated with Christ in heavenly places" (Ephesians 2:5-6). That by the grace of God, through faith, we are participating in the future life even now by grace through faith. That life which we look forward to and have hope for, in the resurrection; is also a life which we have received as a gift of God's grace even now. So that the new man made alive by God in Christ might be fed daily and sustained by faith by the power of the Spirit; and the old man might be daily drowned in repentance.

And on account of this, St. John in his Apocalypse speaks of a "first resurrection" and a "second resurrection". By which most of the Church's commentators have understood that we have received the "first resurrection" as the power and life we have received from God, through faith, by the power of the Spirit--the new life we have in Christ by our Baptism in which we were born again (John 3:5, Titus 3:5) and have put on Jesus Christ (Galatians 3:27). Whereas the "second resurrection" has been understood to refer to what is ordinarily called "the resurrection of the dead" elsewhere in Scripture and by the general faith and testimony of the Christian Church since the beginning.

So that we have, by the grace of God, already have been crucified, buried, and died with Christ, and have been raised up together with Christ to newness of life; this is ours through faith. And the Holy Spirit whom we have received as the Gift and Promise of God, He is the guarantee of all God's promises. So that by the Spirit in us we are renewed day by day, as we are sustained by God's word and promise in Christ. Reminding us daily of what our Lord has done for us, and what all has been promised and set in store for all who believe in Him and His resurrection.

So that no alive by faith, we hope in what is promised, we trust in what has been given and said, and between this faith and hope, above all, we love. For the Apostle has said, "These three remain: Faith, Hope, and Love, and the greatest of these is Love". For through faith we are born of God into hope, that we might reach out into the world in love, bearing the word of God on our lips and in our hearts, and the love of God in our works.


-CryptoLutheran

 

[ViaCrucis]

this is what I thought, but in chap 20 people that have gone died during the tribulation do not come to life until After the battle is over. wear as the others seems to have come alive before the battle.

Rev 20

4 Then I saw the thrones, and those seated on them had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their testimony of Jesus and for the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or its image, and had not received its mark on their foreheads or hands. And they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.

There's going to be a significant difference in thought here depending on whether one subscribes to Millennialism or Amillennialism. I'm an Amillennialist, so I understand the thousand years here to be referring to the present heavenly reign of Jesus Christ at the right hand of the Father. That is, as the Scriptures teach, the Lord ascended into heaven, He was highly exalted by the Father, and seated at the right hand of the Father. Jesus is God, He's always been God from all eternity, so what does it mean that He is seated at the right hand of the Father, that He is exalted? This is the Enthronement of the Messiah as King, it's what Daniel's vision of the Son of Man being taken before the Ancient of Days and receiving power, kingdom, and everlasting authority means. Jesus was taken up in clouds into the heavens, before the Ancient of Days, and given all power and authority--as He Himself says in the Great Commission, "All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth". So, we see in the Acts of the Apostles where we read that God has "made this Jesus whom you crucified both Lord and Christ".

The meaning of the Scriptures are that when the Lord ascended and took His seat at the right hand of the Father, He was fulfilling the prophetic word of the Son of David, the Root of Jesse, being given everlasting throne and reigning on the throne of his father David forever. It's just that the kingdom and the throne of the Messiah was never a temporal throne and kingdom in some corner of the world; but that He should reign as Lord and Christ in heaven, over all creation. For, says St. Peter in the 3rd chapter of the Acts, that the heavens must keep Him until the time of the restoration of all things.

So who are the saints who have been beheaded for their testimony? These are the souls of the righteous, the holy martyrs and saints of God who are with the Lord in heaven; but even we ourselves are said to be seated with Christ in heavenly places, even right now. For we reign with Christ, who reigns from heaven; He reigns not by violence and force, for His kingdom is "not of this world". Christ's kingdom is not a kingdom like that of Herod or Tiberius Caesar. The kingdom of God is not anything like the temporal kingdoms of this fallen and sinful age.

And so, as the Lord reigns at the right hand of the Father, we read in 1 Corinthians 15 that the Lord must reign until everything is made subject to Him and He puts all His enemies under His feet, "and the last enemy to be destroyed is death". The last enemy to be destroyed, death, will be destroyed in the brightness and glory of His coming, when the dead are raised, when the perishable put on the imperishable, and the mortal puts on the immortal, for then "Death is swallowed up in victory! Where O Death is your sting? Where O Death is your victory?"

And in this confidence and hope, the Apostle enjoins us to remember that our labor in the Lord is not in vain. For we toil and struggle and labor in this world, it is not for nothing; for we toil and struggle and labor in the Lord--and whatever is in the Lord will never perish.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[3 Resurrections]

Neither of those texts suggest that Lazarus was "raptured"

I never used Hebrews 9:27 and Luke 23:35-36 as a proof text of a "rapture" for Lazarus. I said both of these texts eliminate the possibility of any resurrected saint dying more than one time.

Except there's no justification for doing this. The 144,000 are described as a first-fruits as an offering to God, not a first-fruits of the resurrection. And there absolutely nothing to connect the 144,000 with those mentioned in Matthew. This is mere naked assertion.

It appears you must not have studied these Matthew 27:52-53 saints very much. The 144,000 are very clearly called "First-fruits" unto God and to the Lamb" in Revelation 14:4. They were part of the first group harvest of the bodies of the saints out of the grave, in fulfillment of the symbolism shown by the OT sheaf of barley First-fruits, waved in the temple, and offered before the Lord in Leviticus 23:10-12. This "First-fruits" sheaf of barley was also to be offered along with a single he-lamb without blemish. This was a picture of "Christ the First-fruits" being raised from the dead on the same day as the 144,000 "First-fruits" who were the Matthew 27:52-53 resurrected saints. Together, THEY composed the "First resurrection" event on the calendar, to be followed "afterward" by the next, second resurrection event at Christ's second coming. 1 Corinthians 15:23-24 puts these two different resurrection events in chronological order on the timeline. They are NOT the same event, since they were to occur at different times on the calendar.

Hebrews 9:27 has nothing to do with whether or not those who were miraculously revived from the dead didn't die again. It simply states that human beings are given a single life to live, we have this life, and when all is said and done we have to stand and give account for that. Lazarus only had one life, and by the Lord's miraculous power He extended Lazarus' life for years to come. As Lazarus would go on to become a bishop in the Church, and would live out his days a faithful servant of Christ, until he died and was buried. And he remains buried in the ground until the Lord's return.

My highlighting above is for emphasis. You are not correct in this statement. Hebrews 9:27-28 makes a direct correlation between Christ being offered ONCE ONLY in death compared to the very same way that believers are appointed to die ONCE ONLY. Are you prepared to be consistent with your own view and admit that the resurrected Christ can die twice? If HE can't die twice, then neither can the believers die twice, according to Hebrews 9:27-28. To say that Lazarus merely died again and was buried twice has absolutely no biblical proof whatever.

The same thing is true in Luke 20:35-36. "Neither CAN they die anymore, being the children of the resurrection." A second death for the resurrected saint is an impossibility. The resurrected state for any of the saints is a permanent condition that is never rescinded. Just as a believer's spiritual resurrection making them an adopted child of God is also a permanent condition, and can never be rescinded. God does not have foster children that He returns to the orphanage - only adopted children.

But I do agree with you that scripture presents the believers as being seated in heavenly places in Christ, having experienced a spiritual resurrection to everlasting life while we are still living in this mortal body. And the fact remains that we have yet to experience our dead bodies being changed into the immortal state in the final resurrection event. This is why we have the "earnest of the Spirit" (a down payment guarantee) dwelling within us. That indwelling Spirit assures the promise of the hope to come, which we don't see happening yet, but are patiently waiting for - the redemption of our physical bodies.

 

[Davy]

DO we all receive our glorified bodies at the same time??

thanks

No.

Apostle Paul showed in 1 Corinthians 15:53-54 that TWO changes... must occur, to have Eternal Life in Jesus Christ.

1 Cor 15:53
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
KJV

1. "corruptible" = flesh
to "incorruption" = unending existence

AND...

2. "this mortal" = liable to die soul (Greek thnetos)
to "immortality" = deathlessness (Greek athanasia)


the "resurrection of life" = BOTH changes.

the "resurrection of damnation" = 1st change ONLY


ALL... will be changed to a body of incorruption at Christ's return, which includes the "resurrection of damnation" (think! that is a resurrection also!).

But the unsaved will NOT have put on "immortality". Their souls ("this mortal" with the Greek word thnetos will still be in a LIABLE TO PERISH condition.)

On the "last trump", at the "twinkling of an eye", we shall ALL be changed at the twinkling of an eye. Our other body we have will then be revealed with our flesh cast off, at an instant. It will be like waking up from a dream.