Fully Mature Universe

[CoreyD]

Sin affected ALLLLLLL of creation.

Really, Keith.
What did sin do to the sun... the moon... the stars... rocks.... the sea... ?
Indirectly, sin does affect plant and animal life, but these do not have sin.

Why do you think animals get cancer?

Pathogens.
What are Pathogens?
A pathogen is any organism that causes disease. Pathogens can include viruses, bacteria, fungi, and parasites. They enter the body and replicate, causing illnesses...

Can human pass on pathogens to animals, and plants?
Humans pass on more viruses to domestic and wild animals than we catch from them, according to a major new analysis of viral genomes by UCL researchers.

Incidents of animal or plant disease are not solely natural occurrences. Human actions are extensively implicated in the spread and outbreak of disease. In turn, disease affects human interests widely, and much effort is spent in the control of disease. Consequently, it is difficult to prise apart the natural phenomena of disease and the social phenomena of the drivers, impacts and regulation of disease. Yet, our understanding of animal and plant diseases is riven by a great divide between the natural and social sciences - a divide that is entrenched in differences of research methods, approaches and languages. The resulting fragmentation of knowledge hinders progress in understanding and dealing with disease.

If you want to experiment with this yourself, get a diseased person to defecate. Bury the stool, in the earth. Then put a young plant in the soil. Eat the plant.
Disclaimer: Try this at your own risk.

It is the curse of sin.

Yes, the indirect effects of man's sin.
Not animals.
Why did Jesus not die for the poor animals in sin? how will they be redeemed?

In the Garden of eden before sin, everything was perfect, there was no sickness, or disease.

I agree. Animals did not die of diseases, or sickness.

“For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it, in hope that the creation itself also will be set free from its slavery to corruption into the freedom of the glory of the children of God. For we know that the whole creation groans and suffers the pains of childbirth together until now” (Rom 8:20-22)

I agree. The whole creation here does not refer to the universe.
For the creation waits with eager longing for the revealing of the sons of God. Romans 8:19
mankind waits eagerly. not the sun, moon, and stars... and certainly your dog, or cat... if you have either, is not sitting at home waiting eagerly for the revealing of the sons of God.
Would you agree?

Even the ground was cursed.... not just man, EVERYTHING.

Who cursed the ground?
What was the result of the cursing of the ground?
Please answer with scripture, please. Thanks.

In Genesis 3:17-18 we read:
17 And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life;
18 Thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; and thou shalt eat the herb of the field;

Yes. Not diseases, and sickness. Not sin.

We also know the whole creation is cursed because God said He is going to burn it all away and create a new Heavens and Earth

2 Peter 3:10–13
"But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night, in which the heavens will pass away with a great noise, and the elements will melt with fervent heat; both the earth and the works that are in it will be burned up. Therefore, since all these things will be dissolved, what manner of persons ought you to be in holy conduct and godliness, looking for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be dissolved, being on fire, and the elements will melt with fervent heat? Nevertheless we, according to His promise, look for new heavens and a new earth in which righteousness dwells."

People have their understanding of this, which is evidently not what the Bible agrees with.
However this is a different subject, which if you want to discuss it, you can respond to this thread - Will This Planet Be destroyed?.

In Genesis, animals were created first to be companions/helpers of Adam.

Which scripture can I read that in?

In Revelation John describes a vision of an Army of White Horses coming down from Heaven. If animals were part of the Original creation on Earth, they will be a big part of the New Earth. Why would God remove animals from eternity? His animal creations are glorious, of course they will be in Heaven. And I don't believe they will die.... there is no more need for death in Heaven.

There was never death in heaven.
No one in heaven is mortal, and dies naturally, or from sickness.

I do agree that there will be animals on earth for all eternity Isaiah 11:6-9; Isaiah 65:17, 26. However, this is not because animals do not die, but because animals reproduce, and their offspring carry on the process.
Surely you do not think the earth can contain undying, multiplying species by the thousands, do you?
Why does common sense logic not win out over wishful thinking? That baffles me, Keith.

There are no animals in heaven.
If you believe this, then you would probably believe, God has a chariot in heaven riding, and the angels have four heads - one of an eagle; one of a lion; one of a bull; one of a man.
You probably believe a literal beast like this exists somewhere on earth.

Do you believe these are literal, and that Jesus will actually be riding a literal horse when he comes?
Do you take everything in the book of Revelation literally?
Here is why you shouldn't.

Revelation 1:1
The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave to him, to show to his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it [gave in signs] by his angel to his servant John:

 

[PastorKeith]

Where in the bible do we read of animals being in heaven? I agree with the rest of your post but not the part about animals in heaven.

Revelation 19
11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.

12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.

13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.

14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

 

[PastorKeith]

Who cursed the ground?
What was the result of the cursing of the ground?
Please answer with scripture, please. Thanks.

God did.
The result is it now brings forth thorns and thistles, and man will have to work by the sweat of his brow to till the land
Genesis 3
17 And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life;

Which scripture can I read that in?

Genesis 2:18
18 Then the Lord God said, “It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him a helper fit for him.” 19 Now out of the ground the Lord God had formed every beast of the field and every bird of the heavens and brought them to the man to see what he would call them. And whatever the man called every living creature, that was its name. 20 The man gave names to all livestock and to the birds of the heavens and to every beast of the field. But for Adam there was not found a helper fit for him.

Surely you do not think the earth can contain undying, multiplying species by the thousands, do you?
Why does common sense logic not win out over wishful thinking? That baffles me, Keith.

Common sense? Logic? You are talking about eternity.... and you expect you can get your mind around the logistics of how God is going to make that happen? You are very prideful Corey. Let me ask you, do you believe in Noah's Ark? I am willing to bet my last dollar, the answer is no.

There are no animals in heaven.

You have never been to Heaven, neither have I. All we have is the Word of God, that clearly says there are animals in heaven, revealed in Revelation 19. It is clear you give no authority to scripture, you disregard the historical creation account, you disbelieve in Noah's Ark (I am sure) and I am also certain you don't believe in any burning bush, or red seas being parted..... it is ASTONISHING.

Yet, you probably claim to believe in the resurrection.

Can you explain this discrepancy?

 

[CoreyD]

God did.

God cursed the ground.
In what way did God curse the ground?

The result is it now brings forth thorns and thistles, and man will have to work by the sweat of his brow to till the land
Genesis 3
17 And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life;

Genesis 2:18
18 Then the Lord God said, “It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him a helper fit for him.” 19 Now out of the ground the Lord God had formed every beast of the field and every bird of the heavens and brought them to the man to see what he would call them. And whatever the man called every living creature, that was its name. 20 The man gave names to all livestock and to the birds of the heavens and to every beast of the field. But for Adam there was not found a helper fit for him.

Common sense? Logic? You are talking about eternity.... and you expect you can get your mind around the logistics of how God is going to make that happen? You are very prideful Corey. Let me ask you, do you believe in Noah's Ark? I am willing to bet my last dollar, the answer is no.

Why do you think that having an understanding of scripture makes one prideful, Keith?
Would you say John was being prideful? 1 John 4:6, 7 What about Jesus... Was Jesus prideful, because he said this? Matthew 13:16

I believe all the Bible.
See this post.
You would have lost your last dollar if you had bet someone.

You have never been to Heaven, neither have I. All we have is the Word of God, that clearly says there are animals in heaven, revealed in Revelation 19. It is clear you give no authority to scripture, you disregard the historical creation account, you disbelieve in Noah's Ark (I am sure) and I am also certain you don't believe in any burning bush, or red seas being parted..... it is ASTONISHING.

I really hope Keith, that this is not how you normally treat people, because those who hear your sermons, would not return to hear you again.

To disregard something means to pay no attention or heed to; to ignore.
Almost everyone on these forums know by now, that I do not disregard the historical accounts of the Bible.
There is proof here, and here, and other places, of course.
This post is proof I believe the account of Noah, and the ark.
There is no reason to believe that I do not believe in any burning bush, or red seas being parted.

The fact that you just say things without having any knowledge of the facts, says much about your sermons Keith. Habits are hard to break.
Once we get into a routine of just saying anything, regardless, of if we know it to be true or not... you know what happens. It becomes a part of us.

Careful Keith. The Devil did not become a professional liar overnight. He practiced speaking things that were not true.

Yet, you probably claim to believe in the resurrection.

Probably? Keith. May I suggest you ask people questions, rather than play psychic with people's life.
You haven't gotten into any trouble doing this, have you?

Can you explain this discrepancy?

What discrepancy?

 

[CoreyD]

Revelation 19
11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.

12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.

13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.

14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

You disregarded this:

There are no animals in heaven.
If you believe this, then you would probably believe, God has a chariot in heaven riding, and the angels have four heads - one of an eagle; one of a lion; one of a bull; one of a man.
You probably believe a literal beast like this exists somewhere on earth.

Do you believe these are literal, and that Jesus will actually be riding a literal horse when he comes?
Do you take everything in the book of Revelation literally?
Here is why you shouldn't.

Revelation 1:1
The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave to him, to show to his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it [gave in signs] by his angel to his servant John:


May I ask, why you did that Keith?

 

[Rxlx]

Many Christians freely accept that Adam was created from dust, into a fully mature adult human male, yet stop short of accepting that God created a fully mature universe for him to exist in, which includes light from stars millions of light years away. A God that is so weak He has to adhere to the very "rules of nature" that He created, is unworthy of admiration in my estimation, and certainly not the God of the Bible. What say you?

I agree.
As for the distant stars maybe most of the stars are just glowing hydrogen molecules.
And as space is empty and the stars have light energy they can obviously push away and speed away from each other to provide todays ever expanding universe!

 

[Rxlx]

I do see your point, however, I believe that when Adam and Eve sinned, death entered the world, but not only after Adam and Eve (~5000 BC), but throughout the entire timeline, a form of retrocausality. Another possible theory is that only humans are granted infinite life, but as Adam and Eve sinned, then humans were cursed. But hey, I am not a theologian.

For myself, I believe the second, in bold, that only the Earth and universe took a long time to form, but humans were created instantly by God, or granted a spirit by God around ~5000 BC, plus or minus a few thousand years.

My guy @RocksInMyHead is a Christian geologist, and he believes in an old Earth, as geology predicts an old Earth.

Geology merely proves The Flood and the Upheavals of the Day of Peleg.

 

[Rxlx]

I guess the real question is....where did the " dust" come from? Science agrees with our Creator that all things are created from dust aka, stellar nucleosynthesis, His creation. Additionally, why would God break His own rules? Why would adherence to the laws of nature be weak? It really has no bearing on His Majesty on how He formed everything out out "dust". Whether it was over time or instantly , He is our Creator and has given us a path to know Him.
Blessings.

forget stella rneucleos - the stars came on Day 4.
GOD obviously formed Earth as a ball of water and natural -NON-NUCLEAR - elements that reactedwith the oxygen in the water to make the minerals.
Thanks to centrifugal force the minerals formed the crust.
And so on.

 

[AlexB23]

Geology merely proves The Flood and the Upheavals of the Day of Peleg.

Yep, and the Fall of Jerusalem in 70 AD. Archeology proved that one.