Full Preterist Safe House

[AFrazier]

My whole view of Daniel is being overhauled according to the principle of "what about it did I think that I only could have thought by reading some commentary note?" from the dispy Scofield notes to the libby "written in Macabbean time" modern scholar notes -- what do I really - what WOULD I see just INTERNALLY in Daniel in the book itself?

never would have thought 70 weeks did NOT run concurrently

never would have thought of Rome as 4th kingdom

Daniel has 4 metals, 4 beasts, and 4 kingdoms mentioned by name

Babylonians, Medes, Persians, and Greeks

Rome is alluded to twice, never named, alluded to as ships of Kittim thwarting Antiochus IV and as Titus tearing down the Temple

I see TWO "Abominations of Desolations" HAPPENNING BY 70 AD and am not looking for a third

but I don't see proof of Rome as the fourth IRON Kingdom

and in this I don't see eye to eye with any Prets partial or full

I have to admit that Christ's everlasting kingdom was established during Roman times - this Rome or Greece as 4th kingdom is asticky wicket

easy to see Alexander as metal legs and his 4 lines of successors as weaker toes mixed with clay

but other suggestions have been given me, maybe Rome is 4th kingdom Daniel saw

if so where is legitimacy of combining Medes and Persians into one - they were two peoples

more popcorn

There are a lot of pages to read through, so I admit that I haven't read them yet. I'll make it through little by little. But I stopped here because I have answers for you to ponder. The beasts in Daniel refer to the empires. That much you recognize. Where Rome comes in is the fourth beast. It has ten horns, and then an eleventh rises up and plucks three of the horns before it out of the way (Dan. 7:7-8). Where I think, in my opinion, many err in their enumerations concerns Marc Antony. From a Jewish perspective, he's one of the horns/heads of the beast. When Caesar was assassinated, the empire was divided. Octavian took the West, Antony the East. So our seven heads from Revelation 17:9-11 are Julius Caesar, the head that was wounded unto death, Octavian (Augustus), Marc Antony, Tiberius, Caligula, Claudius, and Nero, who ended the Julio-Claudian line. The other three, to flesh out Daniel's ten horns, are Galba, Otho, and Vitellius. And then an eleventh horn, Vespasian, rose up and pushed the other three out of the way, beginning a new dynasty. Vespasian was also the eighth of Rev. 17:11, sent by the seven (he was sent by Nero to make war on Israel), and it was by his agency, through his son Titus, that Jerusalem was destroyed.

Some things are too coincidental to be a coincidence.

 

[AFrazier]

God cannot lie. True! So who's Mystery Babylon "that great city"? I see nothing from scripture concerning your assertion.
It seems to me, if you're going to make a claim, you need to make a case from scripture. You haven't done that.

Babylon is Jerusalem. The harlot is Israel. Just do a search for harlot, harlot, etc., and you'll find that God doesn't spare Israel the sharp side of his tongue for her adulteries, whoredoms, and wantonness.

Here are a few choice ones for you, just as an example:

Ezekiel 23:19-21 — "Yet she multiplied her whoredoms, in calling to remembrance the days of her youth, wherein she had played the harlot in the land of Egypt. For she doted upon their paramours, whose flesh is as the flesh of asses, and whose issue is like the issue of horses. Thus thou calledst to remembrance the lewdness of thy youth, in bruising thy teats by the Egyptians for the paps of thy youth."

Ezekiel 16:25 — "Thou hast built thy high place at every head of the way, and hast made thy beauty to be abhorred, and hast opened thy feet to every one that passed by, and multiplied thy whoredoms."

Jeremiah 2:23-25 — "How canst thou say, I am not polluted, I have not gone after Baalim? see thy way in the valley, know what thou hast done: thou art a swift dromedary traversing her ways; a wild ass used to the wilderness, that snuffeth up the wind at her pleasure; in her occasion who can turn her away? all they that seek her will not weary themselves; in her month they shall find her. Withhold thy foot from being unshod, and thy throat from thirst: but thou saidst, There is no hope: no; for I have loved strangers, and after them will I go."

 

[Ed Parenteau]

Babylon is Jerusalem. The harlot is Israel. Just do a search for harlot, harlot, etc., and you'll find that God doesn't spare Israel the sharp side of his tongue for her adulteries, whoredoms, and wantonness.

Here are a few choice ones for you, just as an example:

Ezekiel 23:19-21 — "Yet she multiplied her whoredoms, in calling to remembrance the days of her youth, wherein she had played the harlot in the land of Egypt. For she doted upon their paramours, whose flesh is as the flesh of asses, and whose issue is like the issue of horses. Thus thou calledst to remembrance the lewdness of thy youth, in bruising thy teats by the Egyptians for the paps of thy youth."

Ezekiel 16:25 — "Thou hast built thy high place at every head of the way, and hast made thy beauty to be abhorred, and hast opened thy feet to every one that passed by, and multiplied thy whoredoms."

Jeremiah 2:23-25 — "How canst thou say, I am not polluted, I have not gone after Baalim? see thy way in the valley, know what thou hast done: thou art a swift dromedary traversing her ways; a wild ass used to the wilderness, that snuffeth up the wind at her pleasure; in her occasion who can turn her away? all they that seek her will not weary themselves; in her month they shall find her. Withhold thy foot from being unshod, and thy throat from thirst: but thou saidst, There is no hope: no; for I have loved strangers, and after them will I go."

I agree. It seems so obvious to me that Israel is the mother of these 2 prostitutes: As it is stated in:

Ezekiel 23 1The word of the LORD came to me: 2“Son of man, there were two women, the daughters of one mother. 3They played the harlot in Egypt; they played the harlot in their youth; there their breasts were pressed and their virgin bosoms handled. 4Oholah was the name of the elder and Oholibah the name of her sister. They became mine, and they bore sons and daughters. As for their names, Oholah is Samaria, and Oholibah is Jerusalem.

I was putting the question to Fred in order that he might see the fallaciousness of his assertion due to not having any scripture to validate it.

 

[Simonides]

If it were me instead of you, I'd be glad to settle for "preterist."

Ouch. I almost feel bad for laughing so hard.

 

[FredVB]

God cannot lie. True! So who's Mystery Babylon "that great city"? I see nothing from scripture concerning your assertion.
It seems to me, if you're going to make a claim, you need to make a case from scripture. You haven't done that.

From scripture passages? There is an abundance of evidence from different things that there is great collapse that we are yet drawing closer to. I do not know what your preterism excludes from having happened sometime before. What do you think is left of prophecy to be fulfilled? I see Isaiah 24 speaking to what is still yet to happen, and Revelation 18 shows imagery corresponding to that when we read it. This corresponds well to what we see from evidence from different things of what we are drawing closer to.

 

[Ed Parenteau]

From scripture passages? There is an abundance of evidence from different things that there is great collapse that we are yet drawing closer to. I do not know what your preterism excludes from having happened sometime before. What do you think is left of prophecy to be fulfilled? I see Isaiah 24 speaking to what is still yet to happen, and Revelation 18 shows imagery corresponding to that when we read it. This corresponds well to what we see from evidence from different things of what we are drawing closer to.

Chapter 18 says that the merchants were selling them(verses 11-13), and that they were the great city that killed the prophets(verse 34).
So, if that isn't 1st century Jerusalem, then who's the great city that killed the prophets, buys all kinds of articles of ivory, chariots and slaves?

“Alas! Alas! You great city,
you mighty city, Babylon!
For in a single hour your judgment has come.”

11And the merchants of the earth weep and mourn for her, since no one buys their cargo anymore, 12cargo of gold, silver, jewels, pearls, fine linen, purple cloth, silk, scarlet cloth, all kinds of scented wood, all kinds of articles of ivory, all kinds of articles of costly wood, bronze, iron and marble, 13cinnamon, spice, incense, myrrh, frankincense, wine, oil, fine flour, wheat, cattle and sheep, horses and chariots, and slaves, that is, human souls.

 

[FredVB]

Thank you. So with preterism there is agreement that Mystery Babylon referred to Jerusalem of the first century. Right? You asked, who else could be the city Mystery Babylon represents. My own perspective tells me all peopled cities are collectively guilty with their whole history of exploitation, which goes far beyond bounds, even ethically, and with their history of persecution, which was very real. And my perspective tells me there is the collapse of all the cities of civilization that will come, and prophecy I see for confirming this understanding of Mystery Babylon is the old testament parallel Revelation 18 has with Isaiah 24.

 

[Ed Parenteau]

Thank you. So with preterism there is agreement that Mystery Babylon referred to Jerusalem of the first century. Right? You asked, who else could be the city Mystery Babylon represents. My own perspective tells me all peopled cities are collectively guilty with their whole history of exploitation, which goes far beyond bounds, even ethically, and with their history of persecution, which was very real. And my perspective tells me there is the collapse of all the cities of civilization that will come, and prophecy I see for confirming this understanding of Mystery Babylon is the old testament parallel Revelation 18 has with Isaiah 24.

Can I suggest taking a closer look at Isaiah 24. We have the word "earth" and we always tend to think of it as, well, the earth as we know it. However, the word earth in the bible has several meanings in both Greek and Hebrew. The challenge for us is to determine which meaning should apply. In Genesis 10, God set 70 nations and their boundaries and their appointed times Acts 17:26. Within those 70 nations' boundaries, the whole bible plays out. In Daniel all you will see that each of the "4 beasts" are described as taking over the "whole earth" That's why the New Jerusalem which is the bride of Christ and the church in it's consummated state is the size of the Roman empire and and the shape of the most holy place and not the whole earth as we see the church has become today.


There are markers in Isaiah 24 that can only be Israel.

5The earth is defiled by its people;
they have transgressed the laws;
they have overstepped the decrees
and broken the everlasting covenant.

10The city of chaos is shattered; (refers to Jerusalem)
every house is closed to entry.
11In the streets they cry out for wine.
All joy turns to gloom;
rejoicing is exiled from the land.
12The city is left in ruins;
its gate is reduced to rubble.
13So will it be on the earth
and among the nations,(Israel among the nations)
like a harvested olive tree,
like a gleaning after a grape harvest.
-Rev 14:19So the angel swung his sickle over the earth and gathered the grapes of the earth, and he threw them into the great winepress of God’s wrath. 20And the winepress was trodden outside the city, and the blood that flowed from it rose as high as the bridles of the horses for a distance of 1,600 stadia. (1600 Stadia was the length of 1st century Israel, whereas modern Israel is 2400 stadia in length. Approximately 200 vs 300 miles)