Fornication - Is It Still A Sin, TODAY?

[ebia]

Considering most fornication today happens in Cathedrals, I'm not sure what the issue is? http://photos1.blogger.com/blogger/3555/3028/1600/vault2.jpg

eh?

 

[ebia]

Silly question. Fornication is always a sin.

Trivially, by definition.
But what constitutes "fornication"?

 

[ebia]

We've created a highly individualised, consumer driven culture of instant gratification and no commitment.
Christians have participated in creating that at least as much as anyone else.

And yet we act surprised when people don't behave in the same way as people in the first century in certain areas.

 

[Armoured]

Trivially, by definition.
But what constitutes "fornication"?

Fornication is the verb form of "fornix", which is an architectural feature, essentially, a stone arch or vaulting, as featured in mediaeval and mediaeval style cathedrals.

 

[Rhamiel]

Trivially, by definition.
But what constitutes "fornication"?

sex outside of marriage

there are Christian sacramental marriages and also natural marriage, both are lawful

 

[ebia]

sex outside of marriage l

Is it?

 

[RDKirk]

Originally Posted by Rhamiel

sex outside of marriage l
​

Is it?

We've already gone around this merry on this thread.

However you want to wrangle the definition of "fornication," are you really going to argue that Jesus, Peter, or Paul approved of sexual activities within any other venue than marriage?

 

[ebia]

Originally Posted by Rhamiel sex outside of marriage l We've already gone around this merry on this thread. However you want to wrangle the definition of "fornication," are you really going to argue that Jesus, Peter, or Paul approved of sexual activities within any other venue than marriage?

That's terribly circular isn't it?
"This is what I think is acceptable ...
I can't envisage Paul or Jesus thinking differently
Therefore they thought the same as me
I should think the same as them
Therefore my view is right."

 

[ebia]

Originally Posted by Rhamiel sex outside of marriage l We've already gone around this merry on this thread. However you want to wrangle the definition of "fornication," are you really going to argue that Jesus, Peter, or Paul approved of sexual activities within any other venue than marriage?

What the word actually means is important, isn't it?

If "fornication" basically means "sexual misconduct" then most of the bible verses being thrown around don't say anything about what constitutes sexual misconduct.

 

[grasping the after wind]

What the word actually means is important, isn't it?

If "fornication" basically means "sexual misconduct" then most of the bible verses being thrown around don't say anything about what constitutes sexual misconduct.

Sexual misconduct is any activity that has as its main purpose personal sexual gratification rather than selfless love. Is that specific enough for your taste? Does the following passage that I am throwing around have anything to do with sexual misconduct?
Matthew 5:27-28

New International Version (NIV)

27 “You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall not commit adultery.’[a] 28 But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart."

Perhaps adultery has an archaic meaning that makes the word only apply to idol worshipping? So only looking at a temple prostitute lustfully causes one to commit adultery in one's heart? Perhaps the Elizibethans changed the meaning while we were not looking? Can we get a ruling from Jesus to pin Him down on the meaning of the word as he hasn't stipulated that it must be a married man that does this in order for his words to apply? Shouldn't a single man be able to look lustfully on a single woman and not commit adultery in his heart as adultery only applies when one person involved is already married? Or could we possibly imagine that perhaps Jesus really did mean that Love your neighbor as yourself sums up the law for us in our relations with each other and "doing it because it feels so good that it must be right" is really a sin since it involves using another human being as a means to satisfy one's own need for sexual gratification.

 

[ebia]

Sexual misconduct is any activity that has as its main purpose personal sexual gratification rather than selfless love.

That would, of course, include a heck of a lot of marriages.

 

[grasping the after wind]

That would, of course, include a heck of a lot of marriages.

It certainly would include a lot of activity that occurs within a lot of marriages if not the marriages themselves. Being married does not afford one a free pass for selfishness IMO. If the main purpose of your sexual encounters is to satisfy your own needs then, married or not, you just aren't following the spirit of the law. If your main purpose for anything you do,sexual or otherwise,centers around your own gratification then even if it also has some perceived benefit to another person, "You have your reward" and you have not followed the Command to "Love your neighbor, as yourself" . Quibbling over whether a particular action is a sin or not is irrelevant to the actual issue. The same action could be a sin or an act of love depending upon why one does it. It is not the action that matters as much as it is the attitude that surrounds the action. Worship is wrong if it places something other than God in the place of God. Sexual intercourse outside of marriage is wrong because it places one's own self gratification in the place of caring love for one's lifetime mate. One can find loopholes, if one tries hard enough, to attempt to justify any specific action but it is probably a clue that one is in in the wrong if one starts looking for such loopholes to justify one's actions after the fact or as an excuse for just doing something that one desire to do.

 

[RDKirk]

What the word actually means is important, isn't it?

If "fornication" basically means "sexual misconduct" then most of the bible verses being thrown around don't say anything about what constitutes sexual misconduct.

Wait, I asked you a question: Are you arguing that Jesus, Peter, or Paul approved of sexual activities within any other venue than marriage?

 

[Rhamiel]

Is it?

yes, yes it is, fornication is sex outside of marriage

 

[dayhiker]

The OT defines adultery as taking another man's wife or causing her to break the covenant. I've not found anything ancient that words adultery in terms of personal sexual gratification. My reading of the OT is that adultery only applied to idol worship when God's people worshiped idols thus breaking the covenant they had with God. Which is what the book of Duet. is with its blessing for obedience and curses for disobedience in Duet.28.

I do agree that all the commands are summed up in love God and to love people. Further, love is the only way we are told that we can fulfill the law. So when it comes to sex it should be sex that is loving. I always define loving by asking the other person if they have felt loved by my action. When I give to someone who has bills to pay did they feel loved. When I evict a tenant for not paying rent and not keeping the apartment clean did I treat them justly. When I have sex did they feel loved. When I an a friend did they feel their time with me was lessened their loneliness. In other words I don't define how I love the other person, they define if my actions are loving. When I commune with God does He feel I have worshiped Him.

That's how I live my Christianity.

Sexual misconduct is any activity that has as its main purpose personal sexual gratification rather than selfless love. Is that specific enough for your taste? Does the following passage that I am throwing around have anything to do with sexual misconduct?
Matthew 5:27-28

New International Version (NIV)

27 “You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall not commit adultery.’[a] 28 But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart."

Perhaps adultery has an archaic meaning that makes the word only apply to idol worshipping? So only looking at a temple prostitute lustfully causes one to commit adultery in one's heart? Perhaps the Elizibethans changed the meaning while we were not looking? Can we get a ruling from Jesus to pin Him down on the meaning of the word as he hasn't stipulated that it must be a married man that does this in order for his words to apply? Shouldn't a single man be able to look lustfully on a single woman and not commit adultery in his heart as adultery only applies when one person involved is already married? Or could we possibly imagine that perhaps Jesus really did mean that Love your neighbor as yourself sums up the law for us in our relations with each other and "doing it because it feels so good that it must be right" is really a sin since it involves using another human being as a means to satisfy one's own need for sexual gratification.

 

[Messy]

I always define loving by asking the other person if they have felt loved by my action.

Loving is doing what God says. If you love Me you will keep my commandments. Sex Always feels loving and good, still you have to repent sometimes. I suppose you think gay sex is also good if it feels loving.
That's the gospel of the Beatles, not Jesus.
Don't be fooled. 2 years ago I had a dream about people, young people, blonde girls, everybody was jumping to this nice glide, like with a swimming pool. First we all had to give our posessions, then we were in a room where you couldn't get out, no sky or door and there was this slide and they were jumping and having fun and jumping into it and I wanted to go too, I wanted to step in and then God showed me what noone could see, where the slide came, in a green filthy pool with two huge demons of lust. What struck me was that noone warned them.
Then I saw two weapons of mass destruction which means judgement. Fornicators will not inhabit the Kingdom. If people can't control themselves, get married!! Don't be fooled. Don't loose your soul because it was too much effort to get a marriage license. It costs nothing.

 

[Tammy]

Excellent post, Messy! Thank you!

 

[Armoured]

Loving is doing what God says. If you love Me you will keep my commandments. Sex Always feels loving and good, still you have to repent sometimes. I suppose you think gay sex is also good if it feels loving.
That's the gospel of the Beatles, not Jesus.
Don't be fooled. 2 years ago I had a dream about people, young people, blonde girls, everybody was jumping to this nice glide, like with a swimming pool. First we all had to give our posessions, then we were in a room where you couldn't get out, no sky or door and there was this slide and they were jumping and having fun and jumping into it and I wanted to go too, I wanted to step in and then God showed me what noone could see, where the slide came, in a green filthy pool with two huge demons of lust. What struck me was that noone warned them.
Then I saw two weapons of mass destruction which means judgement. Fornicators will not inhabit the Kingdom. If people can't control themselves, get married!! Don't be fooled. Don't loose your soul because it was too much effort to get a marriage license. It costs nothing.

Um... so many questions! I'll start with why would God care about whether a committed monogamous couple has a marriage licence or not?

 

[Tammy]

In other words I don't define how I love the other person, they define if my actions are loving. When I commune with God does He feel I have worshiped Him.

That's how I live my Christianity.

Come Judgment Day, you are going to be sadly disappointed... GOD HAS DEFINED HOW we are to LOVE people....WE are NOT the ones who are to do the DEFINING. True Christianity OBEYS GOD. A Christianity that sets its own rules, is a FALSE Christianity. Paul made it very clear.

Galatians 1:6-9
(6) I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting him who called you in the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel—
(7) not that there is another one, but there are some who trouble you and want to distort the gospel of Christ.
(8) But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach to you a gospel contrary to the one we preached to you, let him be accursed.
(9) As we have said before, so now I say again: If anyone is preaching to you a gospel contrary to the one you received, let him be accursed.

 

[Armoured]

The OT defines adultery as taking another man's wife or causing her to break the covenant. I've not found anything ancient that words adultery in terms of personal sexual gratification. My reading of the OT is that adultery only applied to idol worship when God's people worshiped idols thus breaking the covenant they had with God. Which is what the book of Duet. is with its blessing for obedience and curses for disobedience in Duet.28.

I do agree that all the commands are summed up in love God and to love people. Further, love is the only way we are told that we can fulfill the law. So when it comes to sex it should be sex that is loving. I always define loving by asking the other person if they have felt loved by my action. When I give to someone who has bills to pay did they feel loved. When I evict a tenant for not paying rent and not keeping the apartment clean did I treat them justly. When I have sex did they feel loved. When I an a friend did they feel their time with me was lessened their loneliness. In other words I don't define how I love the other person, they define if my actions are loving. When I commune with God does He feel I have worshiped Him.

That's how I live my Christianity.

Despite what some apparently think, your Christianity sounds pretty solid to me. Much better than blind dogmatic legalism, anyway.