Female firefighters.

[charityagape]

The question on women being drafted got me thinking about a conversation I had with a relative the other day. One that still leaves me undecided on how I feel about it.

It was about firefighters and should women be allowed to be firefighters. I said women should be allowed to be anything they can be. The response was, that that's just it, they can't be a firefighter, not without lowering the physical requirements. (Are the physical requirements lowered?)

So, my question is should physical requirements for certain male dominated positions (fireman be the most prominent I can think of, as well as possibly combat soldier) be lowered so that women can pass the physical tests? In order to make it fair. Or is lowering the requirements actually unfair?

 

[Yusuf Evans]

Please bear with me on this, as I may get a little off of the subject, but in the end, you'll see where I am going


Obviously, you can see I'm a U.S. Marine. Well, in the Marine Corps, the Physical Fitness Test between males and females is different in only one category, upper body strength. While males have to do dead hang pull-ups(in which we have to go all the way up, and all the way down). 20 pullups will score us 100 points on the test for that portion. Females however, have to do what is the flex-arm hang. The get assistance to the bar. They curl their arms together and put their chin above the bar. Now, once the assiter lets go, they are timed. The timing stops once the arms are completely straight. We both have to do 100 crunches to get a perfect score. On the 3 mile run, women get a two minute extra advantage to score perfect on theirs. For the men, 18min 3 mile is perfect, 20min for women.

Statistically speaking, female Marines score higher on their Physical Fitness Test(PFT), simply because of the upper body strength. Most males can't do 20 pull-ups, but allot of us can get the 70seconds it takes to score a perfect score on the female upper body strenght exam. What does this all mean? Well, for promotion time, your PFT score is factored in and it's weighed pretty heavily. The average score for male Marines is around 235-245, while for females, it's around 255-265. That's about a 20-30pt difference right there.

Now, onto the issue at hand. Should the standards be lowered to accomidate women to be firefighters? I say nope, it shouldn't. Why? I group firefighting in with say the Marine grunts. You never know where your gonna go, and who your gonna have to drag out of the hot zone. Therefore, if a person can't at least carry their own bodyweight, male or female, than they shouldn't decide on that career.

 

[charityagape]

That's a good point. One I've been thinking on. On one hand I firmly believe women should be allowed to do things regardless of gender, however, if i'm passed-out in a fire I'd like that fireperson to be able to carry me out of the building.

 

[flicka]

My dad is a retired fire fighter and was active when the first women began joining the force so he has seen and heard it all. He said requirements are not lowered but have been adjusted over the years to reflect the realistic expectations of the job. Women and men compete equally and just because women sometimes score higher on the written portions they are not going to lower the expectations so more men pass........ok thats a joke but you see what I mean right? If women on the force endangered others they would not be as successful as they are. Apparently sheer brute strength isn't the deciding factor, nor should it be.

 

[nuclear]

I have to say, no, standards should not be lowered. The way I see it, sure, women should be able to do whatever they want to do profession-wise, however! whatever they can actually do should also be factored in. So if a particular woman can pass the physical test, she should be allowed to be a fire fighter, but if she can't, she should be treated just as any man who doesn't pass the test.

 

[justanobserver]

I agree with christianmarine - regardless of gender, if you cant due to lack of physical strength haul/drag/carry my carcass out of a burning building (me being 70" and 215lbs), you aint got no business being a firefighter.

 

[Ampoliros]

The question on women being drafted got me thinking about a conversation I had with a relative the other day. One that still leaves me undecided on how I feel about it.

It was about firefighters and should women be allowed to be firefighters. I said women should be allowed to be anything they can be. The response was, that that's just it, they can't be a firefighter, not without lowering the physical requirements. (Are the physical requirements lowered?)

So, my question is should physical requirements for certain male dominated positions (fireman be the most prominent I can think of, as well as possibly combat soldier) be lowered so that women can pass the physical tests? In order to make it fair. Or is lowering the requirements actually unfair?

I would say that the physical requirements are there because the job requires certain things to be done that are going to be fairly unforgiving (physics and so forth), so to lower the physical requirements might not be very feasable. However, if women can meet the requirements of the job, they should be able to be firefighters, no question.

 

[JimmyKoKoPop]

I've really never understood the motivation behind lowering standards for jobs like firefighters. It sounds so ludicrous to me.

If women are big and strong enough to do the job, let them. If they're not, don't. This will result in a field that has a large majority of males. So what? Trying to force a career to be half women and half men is just as wrong as the opposite.

 

[The Seeker]

If somebody wants to do a job and they are capable of doing it, I don't see why they shouldn't be allowed. The idea of lowering physical standards for women is ludicrous, though, I wouldn't want a woman who was incapable of pulling my unconscious body out of a burning building (trust me, it would be necessary :o) working as a firefighter, any more than anyone with an ounce of common sense would want my scrawny, little, girly arms attempting to rescue them in the event of a fire

 

[ChristianCenturion]

The question on women being drafted got me thinking about a conversation I had with a relative the other day. One that still leaves me undecided on how I feel about it.

It was about firefighters and should women be allowed to be firefighters. I said women should be allowed to be anything they can be. The response was, that that's just it, they can't be a firefighter, not without lowering the physical requirements. (Are the physical requirements lowered?)

So, my question is should physical requirements for certain male dominated positions (fireman be the most prominent I can think of, as well as possibly combat soldier) be lowered so that women can pass the physical tests? In order to make it fair. Or is lowering the requirements actually unfair?

Part of my rate during my military service was firefighting.
There are a few women that are just as strong, just as proficient, and just as knowledgeable as the next "guy". While the exception doesn't prove the rule and as long as there are not morality issues complicating the situation, those that are capable should be allowed to do what they wish to do; however, that doesn't mean that the requirements should be lowered so that more can "pass".
Lowering the standard wouldn't be "fair" to the lives that depend on meeting such standards.

 

[Kroger99]

Absolutly Not!
I just retired from the Fire Service after 20 Years. I was a Training Captain for a pretty good Strtch of that time and I can tell you from Experience that no standards should be lowered. They don't need to be lowered. There is plenty of women out there that can out do any man in the physical Requirements. Some however can not. Heck....Some men can't make the grade when it comes to the physical requirements to be a firefighter.....lol

Now...with that said, the physical requirements is only the beginning. From my experience, the mental state of Fire Firefighting is where I have seen more women than men have problems. Women are more compasionate than men by nature. It takes a pretty tough person emotionally to be a firefighter. Yes, I have seen some men break down at the scene of a bad wreck or fatal fire, but I can safely say that more women lose it in those situations.

With that said....I will say that there are some women out there that are just as tough as any man on the job.

 

[Spinrad]

The question on women being drafted got me thinking about a conversation I had with a relative the other day. One that still leaves me undecided on how I feel about it.

It was about firefighters and should women be allowed to be firefighters. I said women should be allowed to be anything they can be. The response was, that that's just it, they can't be a firefighter, not without lowering the physical requirements. (Are the physical requirements lowered?)

So, my question is should physical requirements for certain male dominated positions (fireman be the most prominent I can think of, as well as possibly combat soldier) be lowered so that women can pass the physical tests? In order to make it fair. Or is lowering the requirements actually unfair?

In military positions the real question should always be what manner of enenmy will be faced. A 200 pound man with a given skill set for combat can beat a 150 pound man with the exact same skill set on a purely physical level. If they both run out of ammo, lose their knives and are down to punches and rock throwing, all things being equal the larger man will win more often than not. This is pretty intuitive, and we think of combat a lot like we think of boxing. But combat is nothing like boxing. Weopons, training, equipmentr, logistics and command have far more to do with success on a modern battlefield than does size. In fact there is something to be said for leaner, smaller troops. You can fit more in a transport, reduce the weight of your aircraft, save fuel and energy. And you can - and some countries do - teach a tweve year old to shoot straight and throw grenades. So I can't see a compelling reason for a women to remain only "service" service people.

Firefighting is a bit different, but only a bit. A certain amount of equipment must be carried, and the firefighter needs to be able to carry someone perhaps 150% of his own weight. Of course. working in two-person teams can solve some of this, so training and logistics is again, very important and may supercede basic physical necessities. The problem is, whereas combat is .. or ought to be about killing enemies, firefighting is the exact opposite. It's about saving people and property. There is definately a greater need in the job description for a person who is physically larger and stronger than average. Again, some of this can be negated by very good teamwork based training, but there will be circumstances where one person may need to physically accomplish some feat of strength to save another person or themself. In my opinion it seems that firefighting/rescue work may be the one area where current body type differences between men and women make it logical that men become "front line" workers instead of women.

HOWEVER.

I am interested in hearing arguments to this notion of mine. One thing I truly dispise and become enraged at is needless inequlity for any group of people.

 

[Kroger99]

Firefighting is a bit different, but only a bit. A certain amount of equipment must be carried, and the firefighter needs to be able to carry someone perhaps 150% of his own weight. Of course. working in two-person teams can solve some of this, so training and logistics is again, very important and may supercede basic physical necessities. The problem is, whereas combat is .. or ought to be about killing enemies, firefighting is the exact opposite. It's about saving people and property. There is definately a greater need in the job description for a person who is physically larger and stronger than average. Again, some of this can be negated by very good teamwork based training, but there will be circumstances where one person may need to physically accomplish some feat of strength to save another person or themself. In my opinion it seems that firefighting/rescue work may be the one area where current body type differences between men and women make it logical that men become "front line" workers instead of women.

HOWEVER.

I am interested in hearing arguments to this notion of mine. One thing I truly dispise and become enraged at is needless inequlity for any group of people.

Very Interesting. You make some good points.
Most fire departments operate on a "Two In, Two Out" policy. Therefore, teamwork is very important. Now that is based on "The text Book" situation. From your experience as a soldier or a firefighter...How many text book runs/missions have you made that were "Text Book"? lol

The older theory in Firefighting is that you need big guys to fight fire. Then God invinted the attic fire.....lol Me being a big guy... I have no problem shoving a smaller firefighter in an attic so he/she can get that job done. With the older attack lines and older firefighting tactics...you have a point. However, alot of the newer and larger diameter attack line are giving the same GPM's as the older lines with less Nozzle Preasure making it somewhat easier to handle the lines. It's still hard work, but hose handling is not as tough as it once was. I personally am thankful for this.

With fire scene safety being such an issue these days, as it should be, Manditory Rapid Intervention Teams (RIT) are being astablished ASAP on all Structure fires. This is a crew thats soul purpose is to do nothing but be ready to go in and rescue the firefighters inside if they need it.

Firefighting has come along way and there are alot of women quite capable of doing the job. I personally have trained some of them. I welcome women in the fire service, but hope that the ones that I have turned away understand why. Same goes for the men that I have turned away.

 

[Thirst_For_Knowledge]

No, the requirements should not be lowered. I can think of a lot of women that could pass the requirements. It is not impossible for a women to be strong and muscular. Most just don't want to be.

 

[trunks2k]

That's a good point. One I've been thinking on. On one hand I firmly believe women should be allowed to do things regardless of gender, however, if i'm passed-out in a fire I'd like that fireperson to be able to carry me out of the building.

While I agree that physical fitness requirements shouldn't be lowered, you have to consider that not all firefighters are rushing into buildings to rescue people. Firefighters have a lot of different jobs. Does the person who operates the pump need the same amount of strength as someone going into a building? But I do suppose firefighters would want to have people that could perform multiple jobs.

We end up in a sticky situation. On one hand, we don't want to discriminate based on sex. Best person for the job is the best person for the job regardless of age, race, sex, etc. The problem with this is that too often that people begin to think that a women is incapable of being the best person for the job.

 

[Kroger99]

While I agree that physical fitness requirements shouldn't be lowered, you have to consider that not all firefighters are rushing into buildings to rescue people. Firefighters have a lot of different jobs. Does the person who operates the pump need the same amount of strength as someone going into a building? But I do suppose firefighters would want to have people that could perform multiple jobs.

We end up in a sticky situation. On one hand, we don't want to discriminate based on sex. Best person for the job is the best person for the job regardless of age, race, sex, etc. The problem with this is that too often that people begin to think that a women is incapable of being the best person for the job.

Yes, he/she does need the same amount of strength. They are not just operating the pumps. That person is packing supply line hoses that are even larger than the line that the firefighter is taking inside the building. they are usually runing around the truck like a mad man getting equipment for people going in and out. The Pump Operatoer has a very important job on the scene and it does require strength to do this job.

Also, Th Pump Operater was not hired to be a pump operater. He/she was hired to be a firefighter. They have passed the same requirements as everyone else and taken additional training to do this job. Becoming a Pump operater is a promotional step withen the fire service...not a hired into position.

 

[loriersea]

It was about firefighters and should women be allowed to be firefighters. I said women should be allowed to be anything they can be. The response was, that that's just it, they can't be a firefighter, not without lowering the physical requirements. (Are the physical requirements lowered?)

Some women couldn't be firefighters without the requirements being lowered, not all. Some men couldn't, either. As long as the requirements are reasonable, and actually necessary to do the job, then barring anyone--male or female--who cannot meet them is fine.

 

[charityagape]

Really good posts. Does anyone know if the tests have actually been lowered, or is that just not true? I can't seem to find anything online that doesn't seem very biased.

 

[Kroger99]

Really good posts. Does anyone know if the tests have actually been lowered, or is that just not true? I can't seem to find anything online that doesn't seem very biased.

To my knowledge...No, but I could be wrong. I know that the department that I worked for has not lowered any standards....Thankfully

 

[ChristianCenturion]

Really good posts. Does anyone know if the tests have actually been lowered, or is that just not true? I can't seem to find anything online that doesn't seem very biased.

I can't speak on the civilian careers, but I know that the military has a few differences in the basic physical testing between men and women.
http://www.defenselink.mil/news/May1998/n05131998_9805133.html

Just in case people were under the impression that both were required to do the same thing in order to pass.