FBI identifies Trump rally shooter as Thomas Matthew Crooks <--- Thread is about the perpetrator, the crime, and the motivation, not Trump

[Belk]

Despite the title of the thread this has managed to get off topic

Yeah, you kind of expect that at page 24.

 

[Merrill]

Quote them

of the many examples:

Democratic Rep Dan Goldman from last year "The New York lawmaker called for Trump, 77, to be “eliminated,” citing his “dangerous” rhetoric, during an interview with former White House press secretary Jen Psaki on MSNBC Sunday."

The Huffington Post declared on July 1st that "The Supreme Court Gives Biden The Legal OK to Assassinate Trump" (not true)

Maxine Waters said of Trump and his cabinet in 2021 "“Let’s make sure we show up wherever we have to show up. And if you see anybody from that Cabinet in a restaurant, in a department store, at a gasoline station, you get out, and you create a crowd. And you push back on them. And you tell them they’re not welcome anymore, anywhere,”

then in 2024, she said she "would take out Trump tonight"

Elizabeth Warren remarked about Trump "we need to take him out now"

Kathy Gifford was photographed with Trump's severed head

In 2019, Texas Rep. Joaquin Castro said Democrats would “fight [Trump] and challenge him in every way that we can in the Congress, in the courts, and in the streets"

Jon Tester said the way for Democrats to win in states President Trump won in 2016 is to “punch him in the face” during an interview on Morning Joe

In 2018 Biden said, “If we were in high school, I’d take him behind the gym and beat the hell out of him [Trump]"

Celebrities like Madonna and Johnny Depp have both talked about shooting Trump and blowing up the Whitehouse. Kyle Gass of Tenacious D told future shooters "Don't miss Trump next time"

those are just the ones that come to mind. You can go over to reddit to see hundreds more examples of people on the political left calling for violence against Trump and Republicans

anyone who uses the phrase "Trump is Hitler and has to be stopped", or "threat to our Democracy" is basically calling for violence or assassination

 

[Merrill]

Says Mr Deflector.



There you go again.

Eh huh.

We're done here.

I would remind you about the rules posted on this site about expressing support for killing Trump (or any other political figure)

OK Mr. "I'm going to go right up to the line"?

 

[FenderTL5]

Despite the title of the thread this has managed to get off topic

Yeah it's clear where things veered off topic

 

[BPPLEE]

Yeah it's clear where the troll entered and things veered off topic

Looks like it was post #451 but I’m not calling anyone a troll

 

[wing2000]

Looks like it was post #451 but I’m not calling anyone a troll

The prospective prospective VP's stated view on the thread title is on topic. Maybe you had someone else in mind?

 

[BPPLEE]

The prospective prospective VP's stated view on the thread title is on topic. Maybe you had someone else in mind?

Maybe you’re right but that seemed to be the tipping point

 

[Belk]

of the many examples:

Democratic Rep Dan Goldman from last year "The New York lawmaker called for Trump, 77, to be “eliminated,” citing his “dangerous” rhetoric, during an interview with former White House press secretary Jen Psaki on MSNBC Sunday."

Not only did he not mean eliminated in a violent fashion, he apologized and clarified that he does not condone political violence.

Rep. Goldman claims he ‘used the wrong word’ when he called for Trump to be ‘eliminated’

Rep. Dan Goldman apologized on Monday and said he misspoke when he called for former President Donald Trump to be “eliminated” — which some on social media argued could incite vio…

nypost.com

The Huffington Post declared on July 1st that "The Supreme Court Gives Biden The Legal OK to Assassinate Trump" (not true)

Pointing out the ramifications of a ruling is not calling for violence or assassination.

Maxine Waters said of Trump and his cabinet in 2021 "“Let’s make sure we show up wherever we have to show up. And if you see anybody from that Cabinet in a restaurant, in a department store, at a gasoline station, you get out, and you create a crowd. And you push back on them. And you tell them they’re not welcome anymore, anywhere,”

Not calling for violence or assassination.

then in 2024, she said she "would take out Trump tonight"

Elizabeth Warren remarked about Trump "we need to take him out now"

Equivocation fallacy.

Kathy Gifford was photographed with Trump's severed head

This one I'll give you a partial on. It was part of a comedy routine but it was poorly thought out.

In 2019, Texas Rep. Joaquin Castro said Democrats would “fight [Trump] and challenge him in every way that we can in the Congress, in the courts, and in the streets"

Jon Tester said the way for Democrats to win in states President Trump won in 2016 is to “punch him in the face” during an interview on Morning Joe

In 2018 Biden said, “If we were in high school, I’d take him behind the gym and beat the hell out of him [Trump]"

Celebrities like Madonna and Johnny Depp have both talked about shooting Trump and blowing up the Whitehouse. Kyle Gass of Tenacious D told future shooters "Don't miss Trump next time"

those are just the ones that come to mind. You can go over to reddit to see hundreds more examples of people on the political left calling for violence against Trump and Republicans

anyone who uses the phrase "Trump is Hitler and has to be stopped", or "threat to our Democracy" is basically calling for violence or assassination

Yeah, not even going to bother

This all looks like a whole bunch of equivocation and trying to make regular speech out to be calls to violence. If Trumps "You have to fight for your country" and "beat those guys up and I'll pay for your lawyer" are OK then so are these. Quite frankly I think this is nothing more then an excuse to spout the same vitriol against the "garbage party" that has long been so prevalent from .... Lets say "your side".

 

[Merrill]

Not only did he not mean eliminated in a violent fashion, he apologized and clarified that he does not condone political violence.

Rep. Goldman claims he ‘used the wrong word’ when he called for Trump to be ‘eliminated’

Rep. Dan Goldman apologized on Monday and said he misspoke when he called for former President Donald Trump to be “eliminated” — which some on social media argued could incite vio…

nypost.com

Pointing out the ramifications of a ruling is not calling for violence or assassination.

Not calling for violence or assassination.


Equivocation fallacy.

This one I'll give you a partial on. It was part of a comedy routine but it was poorly thought out.

Yeah, not even going to bother

This all looks like a whole bunch of equivocation and trying to make regular speech out to be calls to violence. If Trumps "You have to fight for your country" and "beat those guys up and I'll pay for your lawyer" are OK then so are these. Quite frankly I think this is nothing more then an excuse to spout the same vitriol against the "garbage party" that has long been so prevalent from .... Lets say "your side".

and this is the problem

I could produce 100 examples, or even material from reddit and X from users who wanted Trump killed (like Kyle Gass) and you would say

"equivocation"

and I never said anything about violent rhetoric on the other side --because there has been some

but the GOP didn't call Biden Stalin and urge its members to "take him out", "protect democracy", and got into the streets

everyone here knows where you stand in regards to people trying to kill Trump

I expect Trump to win in November, and posts to appear here saying "our Republic is now in the hands of Hitler! Someone needs to do something! We can no longer rely on our government and Constitution as it has been taken over by Fascists! We need to take measures!!!! *wink* *wink*, *hint* hint*!"

followed by "no one actually called for violence!"

because posting on Twitter of people holding the bloody head of the president isn't violent rhetoric

 

[iluvatar5150]

Stop

stop pretending to know what the motive of the killer was --we still don't know

and my post was not about that: it was pointing out that Democrats have used violent rhetoric and dogwhistles in regards to Trump for over 8 years

Oh? Let's recap:

VP Candidate JD Vance: (two hours after the shooting)

"Today is not just some isolated incident. The central premise of the Biden campaign is that President Donald Trump is an authoritarian fascist who must be stopped at all costs. That rhetoric led directly to President Trump's attempted assassination."

JD Vance is correct on this

Vance's comment spoke directly to the motivations of the shooter. You then said (and have since repeated) that Vance was correct. Did you not understand that Vance's comment addressed the shooter's motivation?

 

[FenderTL5]

anyone who uses the phrase .. "threat to our Democracy" is basically calling for violence or assassination

Does this count?

 

[wing2000]

Does this count?

“They stole the race from Biden after he won it in the primaries — A First! These people are the real THREAT TO DEMOCRACY!”

[ "They" }

 

[Merrill]

Does this count?

when Trump says "these people are the real threat to Democracy" he means that the Democrats have circumvented the will of their party, and the elites are making undemocratic decisions

when Democrats say Trump is a threat to democracy, they mean that he is a Fascist dictator who will overthrow the entire government, put people into camps, etc.

 

[iluvatar5150]

when Trump says "these people are the real threat to Democracy" he means that the Democrats have circumvented the will of their party, and the elites are making undemocratic decisions

when Democrats say Trump is a threat to democracy, they mean that he is a Fascist dictator who will overthrow the entire government, put people into camps, etc.

That’s not self-serving at all.

 

[essentialsaltes]

when Trump says "these people are the real threat to Democracy" he means that the Democrats have circumvented the will of their party, and the elites are making undemocratic decisions

Rather than the contrast you suggested, I would say

when Democrats say Trump is a threat to democracy, they mean that he (after losing the 2020 election) attempted to circumvent the will of We The People, and Trump himself was making undemocratic demands that Pence reject or set aside electoral votes from certain states.

 

[Merrill]

That’s not self-serving at all.

this discussion has run its course

anyone here claiming that Democrats were not using inflammatory and violent rhetoric for years against Trump is being intellectually dishonest and wasting everyone's time. The evidence is clear and overwhelming

now the GOP has used some of this rhetoric as well, but they haven't paraded around with Biden's severed head, told crowds of people they wished the assassin hadn't missed, or talked about literally blowing up the Whitehouse.

the hyperbole, violent rhetoric, and extremist slogans need to stop. No one should be doing this, regardless of their ideology or political affiliations.

 

[iluvatar5150]

this discussion has run its course

anyone here claiming that Democrats were not using inflammatory and violent rhetoric for years against Trump is being intellectually dishonest and wasting everyone's time. The evidence is clear and overwhelming

Did somebody else claim that? Because I sure didn’t.

But saying that “Dems have used inflammatory rhetoric” is not the same as saying that the assassination attempt was the result of that rhetoric. One is an observation while the other is a declaration of causality.

now the GOP has used some of this rhetoric as well, but they haven't paraded around with Biden's severed head, told crowds of people they wished the assassin hadn't missed, or talked about literally blowing up the Whitehouse.

No, a lot of that sort of stuff was directed at Obama.

 

[The IbanezerScrooge]

this discussion has run its course

anyone here claiming that Democrats were not using inflammatory and violent rhetoric for years against Trump is being intellectually dishonest and wasting everyone's time. The evidence is clear and overwhelming

now the GOP has used some of this rhetoric as well, but they haven't paraded around with Biden's severed head, told crowds of people they wished the assassin hadn't missed, or talked about literally blowing up the Whitehouse.

the hyperbole, violent rhetoric, and extremist slogans need to stop. No one should be doing this, regardless of their ideology or political affiliations.

Did someone say "inflammatory and violent rhetoric"?

‘It’s Gonna Take a Civil War’: Trump Campaign Speaker Warns of Violence if Dems Win

At a rally in Ohio with J.D Vance, a GOP state senator said Trump victory in 2024 is the last chance to avoid bloody conflict

www.yahoo.com

I think we talked about calls for "civil war" in another thread, too.

 

[RocksInMyHead]

@Vambram if you want to talk about Crooks and his motive (or lack thereof), you can do it here.

I have to wonder why, after more than 7 days after July 13th, the official investigators have revealed relatively little personal information and personal motivation for Crooks. What are the chances that a 20 year old young man had extremely little, if any, social media profile?. How come it doesn't take long for relevant personal motivation for other criminal shooters in the news to be released, but with Crooks??? Well, we are still waiting.

Sometimes the simplest answer is also the correct answer - there just isn't anything to release. Not everything is a big conspiracy. The information that has been released points to someone looking for fame rather than someone trying to make a political statement. Anything else is pure speculation.

 

[ozso]

@Vambram if you want to talk about Crooks and his motive (or lack thereof), you can do it here.

Sometimes the simplest answer is also the correct answer - there just isn't anything to release. Not everything is a big conspiracy. The information that has been released points to someone looking for fame rather than someone trying to make a political statement. Anything else is pure speculation.

There are several unanswered questions that aren't going away anytime soon. Like the sound of the gunfire that's supposed to be coming from crooks gun being inconsistent. In other words it sounds like two different guns being fired. Then there's the open window in the building directly behind Crooks where a second shooter could easily have been stationed. Then there's the inconsistency of who if anyone was in that and or the other building and in the area. Then of course there's the time delay from when Crooks was first spotted as a sniper to when counter snipers took him out. That's just a few things floating on the surface. It seems too much of a rabbit hole to have a simple answer.