Fathers that mention toll houses

[jckstraw72]

When toll houses has come up on here before I remember someone posting a list of the Fathers that wrote about them. my friend is interested in looking up the Patristic sources for toll houses. can anyone hook me up with where to find toll houses in the Fathers? thanks.

 

[Tsarina]

The Prolouge by St. Nicholas of Zhicha has relfections inside of them for each day. A lot of these reflections do mention quotes that various of Saints have stated reffering to the Tollhouses.

I can't exactly remember who these particular Saints were, but i'll try finding something for you. However, i do know that St. Theophan the Recluse speaks about the Tollhouses.

 

[repentant]

http://www.apostle1.com/Saint John Maximovitch on Life After Death1.html

This is a homily by St. John of San Francisco. In it, it mentions Saints and Father's who spoke of them.

 

[Epiphanygirl]

When toll houses has come up on here before I remember someone posting a list of the Fathers that wrote about them. my friend is interested in looking up the Patristic sources for toll houses. can anyone hook me up with where to find toll houses in the Fathers? thanks.

My bookmarks are messed up right now, but here are some that might help.....most of them are discussions....

http://stmichaelacademy.org/theo/stjd.htm

http://www.uni-heidelberg.de/subject/hd/fak7/hist/o1/logs/byzans-l/log.started960627/0125.html
http://www.uni-heidelberg.de/subject/hd/fak7/hist/o1/logs/byzans-l/log.started960627/0139.html
http://www.svtoday.com/tforumb.htm
http://www.amazon.com/Soul-After-Death-Contemporary-After-Death/dp/093863514X
http://www.stlukeorthodox.com/html/evangelist/2000/deathtoll.htm
http://www.stlukeorthodox.com/html/evangelist/2000/deathtoll.htm

 

[hungrytiger]

The Prolouge by St. Nicholas of Zhicha has relfections inside of them for each day. A lot of these reflections do mention quotes that various of Saints have stated reffering to the Tollhouses.

I can't exactly remember who these particular Saints were, but i'll try finding something for you. However, i do know that St. Theophan the Recluse speaks about the Tollhouses.

Yeah, I think I remember Theophan talking about them a little in The Spiritual Life: And How to Be Attuned to It. I beleive much of what he wrote about them was a quote from some earlier saint, which I don't remember the name of.

 

[Teke]

[SIZE=+2]THE RETURN OF THE TOLLHOUSES[/SIZE] REV. DR. MICHAEL AZKOUL
http://www.new-ostrog.org/return_tollhouses.html

 

[repentant]

[SIZE=+2]THE RETURN OF THE TOLLHOUSES[/SIZE] REV. DR. MICHAEL AZKOUL
http://www.new-ostrog.org/return_tollhouses.html

Teke,

Your article says that the teaching of "toll houses" is unOrthodox...how can something be unOrthodox when the Church has never accepted a position one way or another?

UnOrthodox would be to say that Jesus never ressurected for example. We have a set teaching and belief that He did. So to say otherwise would be unOrthodox. Something like this can not be considered unOrthodox.

 

[Vasileios]

I never understood this controversy. I knew about the trials after death long before I ever heard about Fr. Seraphim. Maybe people take them literally? Whatever the case elder Paisios mentions them now and then matter of factly and so did elder Porphyrios. Personally, I need no more assurance. I will say that elder Porphyrios mentioned that when he was approaching death he did not want to think about any of this, he only longed to meet Christ. Elder Paisios used to say "don't worry, if you get on the "train" let the "dogs" bark chasing it from behind!" Kind of hinting that we Orthodox Christians normally should be aboard the "train"! Now, I don't know about official dogmas and canons but in any case the lesson I see from the tollhouses is about repentance. Can't see what is wrong with that or what is new about that either.

An athonite monk said we should always run to the "bathtub" of our confessor, the epitrachelion, and wash regularly

 

[Tsarina]

Yeah, I think I remember Theophan talking about them a little in The Spiritual Life: And How to Be Attuned to It. I beleive much of what he wrote about them was a quote from some earlier saint, which I don't remember the name of.

He also mentioned somthing about the Tollhouses in his book called, "The Path to Salvation." One of my favorite quotes by St. Theophan the Recluse is this:

"No matter how absurd the idea of the toll houses may seem to our ‘wise men’, they will not escape passing through them. – St. Theophan the Recluse."

 

[repentant]

He also mentioned somthing about the Tollhouses in his book called, "The Path to Salvation." One of my favorite quotes by St. Theophan the Recluse is this:

"No matter how absurd the idea of the toll houses may seem to our ‘wise men’, they will not escape passing through them. – St. Theophan the Recluse."

This is so true..

You know it says something that the "keepers of the faith" as they are called, Monks, believe in the toll houses. The ones who spend there entire lives in prayer, meditation, contemplation, etc. The ones who live a truly Orthodox life. Yet the "theologians" or wise men as St. Theophan says, seem to think they know better...

 

[Tsarina]

This is so true..

You know it says something that the "keepers of the faith" as they are called, Monks, believe in the toll houses. The ones who spend there entire lives in prayer, meditation, contemplation, etc. The ones who live a truly Orthodox life. Yet the "theologians" or wise men as St. Theophan says, seem to think they know better...

I like how you put that togeather.

I have an article about the Tollhouses somewhere around my bookshelf. I'll try to find it and post it up here somtime. However, my internet is going off tomarrow morning and won't be back on until next week.

I'll paste it then. Remind me!

 

[Teke]

Teke,

Your article says that the teaching of "toll houses" is unOrthodox...how can something be unOrthodox when the Church has never accepted a position one way or another?

UnOrthodox would be to say that Jesus never ressurected for example. We have a set teaching and belief that He did. So to say otherwise would be unOrthodox. Something like this can not be considered unOrthodox.

The articles author considers it unorthodox and presented his arguement for why (I thought it gave a good pro and con). It is a controversial subject.
But as far as I know Orthodox do not make church dogma from visions of saints. Which is what the tollhouses is from, a vision of a saint.

 

[repentant]

The articles author considers it unorthodox and presented his arguement for why (I thought it gave a good pro and con). It is a controversial subject.
But as far as I know Orthodox do not make church dogma from visions of saints. Which is what the tollhouses is from, a vision of a saint.

Visions of MANY Saints..

Also that's my point, there is no set belief or dogma about it either way, therefore one can not say it is unOrthodox. Could argue against it, but's that about it.

 

[choirfiend]

Fr. Peter Gilquist called it unOrthodox. Which is where I think this is stemming from--and while I'm not going to get into a discussion on it on here, to avoid debate and keep this on topic--I agree with him.

 

[repentant]

What about it goes against already established Orthodox teaching?

If there is something, then possible could be unOrthodox. But in everything I ever read about it, nothing contradicts an established Church teaching.

 

[repentant]

Actually just glancing over the article that Teke posted, I noticed something.

It says that the belief of the tollhouses consists of demons taking you through the toll houses, this is not true.

The belief, and visions that the Saints have had, are that Angels guide you through these toll houses.

So I think if someone is going to write an article against something, he should at least know what exactly the belief is he is writing against....

This is the problem with just about all the anit tollhouse aruements I have read. They are missimformed..

 

[gorion]

Praying and contemplating alot does not make every idea you come up with correct. I'm sure Arius prayed and contemplated alot.

Although this logic is cute I find it a bit flawed.

 

[repentant]

Praying and contemplating alot does not make every idea you come up with correct. I'm sure Arius prayed and contemplated alot.

Although this logic is cute I find it a bit flawed.

That was not the point..my point was that the "keepers of the faith" many of them believe in a form of toll house. From already glorified Saints, to those living.

I highly doubt that any (or most) of the "wise men" reached a state of Theosis as them.

 

[Matrona]

Praying and contemplating alot does not make every idea you come up with correct. I'm sure Arius prayed and contemplated alot.

Quite right!

Also, the fact that the concept of toll-houses came out of "visions" reminds me of how the "Rapture" theory came into vogue among Protestants.

 

[repentant]

Quite right!

Also, the fact that the concept of toll-houses came out of "visions" reminds me of how the "Rapture" theory came into vogue among Protestants.

Yes now let's compare our Holy Saints to heretics..

Do you know the prayer rope was given in a vision.

Have you ever sung "Axion esti" (It is truly meet..) do you know that was given in a vision to Monks by Archangel Gabriel. Well the first part was, the original part was written by St. Kosmas I think...