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False Apostle Paul & 2 Peter 3:15-17

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FirenWater

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Yes, I agree Paul mentioned he is pro works, yet, at the same time, talks about being against works of Torah in his other writings. As I quoted in my OP, is this not "circular reasoning" which is "difficult to understand, and detrimental to understanding" as written in 2Peter?
I believe the main source of all this dissension on that topic is due to the writings of no other than Paul himself. :sorry:
I am the OP :) I am not sure I understand why the fact that this is an internet forum, or being in one's home has to do with Paul's commandment.
... and bearing a child too? For apparently that is necessary for your salvation, according to Paul :p (1Tim 2:15)

Im 24 years old in the Lord and on these forums for many years, do you really believe thats a new one?^_^

Jerm 30:6 Ask ye now, and see whether a man doth travail with child? wherefore do I see every man with his hands on his loins, as a woman in travail, and all faces are turned into paleness?

Now that I'd love to see^_^

Isaiah 60:16 Thou shalt also suck the milk of the Gentiles, and shalt suck the breast of kings: and thou shalt know that I the LORD [am] thy Saviour and thy Redeemer, the mighty One of Jacob.

Breastfeeding Kings, who'd of thunk it? ^_^

But there you have it. Theres apparently no virgins in heaven, and kings have breasts (like women do) and travail with child as a woman lol

On another note, I always thought OP meant original post, not original poster. Which is it? I honesty dont know. But I often dont adress the person unless adressed. 99% of the time its better that way around here ^_^

But, there are tons of Paul is a fasle prophet topics, I have been on a couple myself, but I am not interested in wrangling on every point of dispute with Paul. I tell that to all the fellas who want to wrestle it out. For example someone lately is tackling genealogies, I might add to the thread something, but I am not interested in leaving off what I enjoy studying to jump into that "endless venture".

Some other folks will though, they even look for these kinds of threads to tackle, point by point. Thats sure not me... OP:p
 
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ananda

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Jerm 30:6 Ask ye now, and see whether a man doth travail with child? wherefore do I see every man with his hands on his loins, as a woman in travail, and all faces are turned into paleness? ... Isaiah 60:16 Thou shalt also suck the milk of the Gentiles, and shalt suck the breast of kings: and thou shalt know that I the LORD [am] thy Saviour and thy Redeemer, the mighty One of Jacob ... Theres apparently no virgins in heaven, and kings have breasts (like women do) and travail with child as a woman lol

"as a woman" says Jeremiah: this shows that he was using a metaphor. Perhaps kings do in heaven; all believers are the wife of Messiah in heaven, no?

There are tons of Paul is a fasle prophet topics, I have been on a couple myself, but I am not interested in wrangling on every point of dispute with Paul.
Thank you for your responses thus far; if you don't mind, I would also like to get back to my original post. Nobody has to date addressed the points I made.
 
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BlueRoot

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I was once against paul until my heart came to life and convicted me as I how it will you

M testimony is the opposite, but ironically I was following Paul closer then any of you likely was. For I was studying other faiths and indeed tyring to be a chameleon to win everyone that I could by diplomatic compromise but in the end I just wound up playing the harlot like the universal church. So Paul led me into Apostasy and unfaithfulness for which my only consolation was that in My Apostasy I had understood what true Paulianity is all about enough to graduate from the outer court to the inner court and cleanse my faith of the lies. I still reflect on inspiring sermons the use the words of Paul, but his testimony is no greater then any of us and I disagree on the matters of not following God's law, but following man's, that rulers are sent from God and rule over us for our own good, women can't minister, and other lies...
 
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Truth_Warrior

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M testimony is the opposite, but ironically I was following Paul closer then any of you likely was. For I was studying other faiths and indeed tyring to be a chameleon to win everyone that I could by diplomatic compromise but in the end I just wound up playing the harlot like the universal church. So Paul led me into Apostasy and unfaithfulness for which my only consolation was that in My Apostasy I had understood what true Paulianity is all about enough to graduate from the outer court to the inner court and cleanse my faith of the lies. I still reflect on inspiring sermons the use the words of Paul, but his testimony is no greater then any of us and I disagree on the matters of not following God's law, but following man's, that rulers are sent from God and rule over us for our own good, women can't minister, and other lies...
Every man must stand upon what he believes but I don't believe Paul was a liar.

What Paul did,said and endured makes him one of the greatest men of God that ever lived so unless you have other information other than what you already posted then in my humble opinion you are creating division in the body of Christ and are in need of a check up from the neck up.


Eph 3:7 Whereof I was made a minister, according to the gift of the grace of God given unto me by the effectual working of his power.
Eph 3:8 Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, is this grace given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ;



Least of all saints .............yeah thats boasting.
 
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Jpark

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OK I'll bite. Where does it say John was opposed to Paul? The only thing I can think of is John wrote that in the final judgement, we are judged according to our works. (Whereas Paul taught that we are saved entirely through grace and faith).
Eh what? That was meant for the original poster! :(

Ah well...

John and Paul's words are not contradictory because the judgment is based on the heart (1 Samuel 16:7, John 7:24) and works and faith are manifestations of the heart (Matt. 15:18-20, Matt. 12:33-37).

As for grace, that merely means God's decision (Rom. 9:16, 2 Tim. 2:25, Rom. 2:4).
 
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ananda

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M testimony is the opposite, but ironically I was following Paul closer then any of you likely was. For I was studying other faiths and indeed tyring to be a chameleon to win everyone that I could by diplomatic compromise but in the end I just wound up playing the harlot like the universal church. So Paul led me into Apostasy and unfaithfulness for which my only consolation was that in My Apostasy I had understood what true Paulianity is all about enough to graduate from the outer court to the inner court and cleanse my faith of the lies. I still reflect on inspiring sermons the use the words of Paul, but his testimony is no greater then any of us and I disagree on the matters of not following God's law, but following man's, that rulers are sent from God and rule over us for our own good, women can't minister, and other lies...

Thank you for your testimony and for your contributions to this thread, BlueRoot - my walk and experience with Elohim and Messiah, and away from Paul, has been similar! :thumbsup:
 
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ananda

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Every man must stand upon what he believes but I don't believe Paul was a liar.

I can appreciate your faith, friend - but have you actually tested Paul's words, in obedience to Elohim's commands (e.g. Deut 13:1-6, 18:20-22, etc.) to us that we must test all prophets?
... unless you have other information other than what you already posted then in my humble opinion you are creating division in the body of Christ and are in need of a check up from the neck up.
Nay, I believe I am separating the evil from the good - the theme of all of Scripture itself! If result of that is indeed "creating division in the body of Messiah," then so be it.

...Eph 3:8... Least of all saints ... yeah thats boasting.
Paul: Seeing that many boast (kauchaomai) after the flesh, I will boast (kauchaomai) also. - 2Cor 11:18 &
Paul: For what is our hope, or joy, or crown of boasting (kauchēsis)? 1Thes 2:19

vs

James 4:16 - But now ye rejoice in your boastings (kauchaomai): all such boasting (kauchēsis) is evil.
 
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help_the_lord

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Someone said something about how they don't like how paul is against the law of God... I see that all the time and it drives me nuts. People don't interperet Paul correctly. I'm going to break down this passage for you guys so you can see it's true meaning and from there better understand what Paul was talking about. You'll clearly see if you pay attention and open your heart he wasn't against the law of God at all.




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<< Romans 7 >>
King James Version 1Know ye not, brethren, (for I speak to them that know the law,) how that the law hath dominion over a man as long as he liveth? 2For the woman which hath an husband is bound by the law to her husband so long as he liveth; but if the husband be dead, she is loosed from the law of her husband. 3So then if, while her husband liveth, she be married to another man, she shall be called an adulteress: but if her husband be dead, she is free from that law; so that she is no adulteress, though she be married to another man.
4Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God. 5For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death.
When we weren't Christians the sin in our bodies did work in our bodys to do things against the law of God bringing afterwords death.

6But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.
We are delivered from the law being our only guide of righteousness, because in itself it's nothing but text, now as a more perfect guide we have a the Spirit of Christ to aid us in doing right, not just written words.

7What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid.
He's restating the obvious in case his initial statement confused you. The law is not sinful.

Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.
This is exemplifying his point, the law was his guide of doing what was right before, but unfortunately the letter of the law to show him what he was doing was wrong.

8But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.
Sin got him into all sorts of trouble and without the law, he had no idea it was sin.

9For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died. 10And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death.
Once he became a believer in the Torah he was aware sin was alive in him, and the sin became alive killing him. And the commandment to keep the law set by God which was meant to insure life, brought him death because he wasn't keeping it.

11For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.
Just like you you die daily to allow Christ to live in you, you can also die daily and allow sin to live in you. In this case the sin killed him.

12Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.
13Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid.
The law is Holy and is made to be good and bring life. It in itself is pure and can't bring death unto anyone. Therefore it didn't bring death unto him.

But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful.
Sin working to oppose that which is good (the law), wrought to bring death unto him, because those who don't follow God's laws will eventually die because of there sins. And because he had now known of the commandment and knew it was sin that he was doing; it had become exceedingly sinful.

14For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.
Just as you were bought with a price into eternal life by Christ, he was sold with a price into sin (the price is temporary carnal pleasures instead of etenral life).

15For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I. The things he's doing he's not giving the sin permission to do, it's just doing it anyways. Much like a drug addict who takes a drug despite hating it, yet they do it anyways.

16If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good.
Because he knows this sin that he is doing is not something he would willingly do if he had a choice, he's admitting the law is good when it says not to do it.

17Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
Once again, since he's not willingly doing it.. it's not Paul thats doing the sin.. its the sin that dwells in him. Much like the spirit that dwells in us Christians changes us and causes us to do good.

18For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.
Before he had Yashua and his spirit, the will to do good was in his heart, but he didn't have the ability to carry it out.

19For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.
Once again he's stuck doing evil that hes not consenting to.

20Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
Same thing the sin is alive inside him causing him to do things are evil.

21I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.
Therefore this flesh has it's own law that it does evil instead of good.

22For I delight in the law of God after the inward man: 23But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
Prior to his conversion he had God's law in his mind and the idea of doing it was a delight to him, however the law of sin that was controlling him like a puppet forced him into bondage and made him break God's laws.

24O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
He was unsure what could help him to stop sinning unto death.

25I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.
He's thanking God that through Yashua he can keep the law of God, instead of being a slave to the law of sin; or there bondage therefore.

Continued in the next post
 
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help_the_lord

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This is further explained in Romans 8


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<< Romans 8 >>
King James Version

1There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
Therefore now people who walk under the spirit are not condemed to be slaves to there flesh.

2For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
See now when he says we are free from the Law of sin and death.. he doesn't mean he's free from God's law but the forced bondage to commit sin he already explained.

3For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
The law itself was just text therefore it was weak and unable to stop people in the flesh from breaking it's precepts. So God sent his own son in a fleshly form to be perfect and condemn sin in the flesh. Therefore Yashua came and lived perfect according to God's law to break the law of Sin which forces are bodies to break God's law.

4That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
By doing this when we receive his spirit we are able to keep the law like Yashua did, not because of our weak fleshly bodies, but because we have the spirit of Christ.

5For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
For before we had Yashua we had minds who chased after sinful things, but now that we have the spirit of Christ we want to be righteous.

6For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
Carnal minds chase sin which is death. Christians chase God's law which in the end is eternal life.

7Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. 8So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
Non Christians are against God, for they feel they're not subject to his laws, neither can they be because of the bondage to sin and death. Therefore because they don't keep his law they canot pelase God.


9But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. 10And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
But your not in the flesh but the spirit of Christ, therefore the spirit of God dwells in you. And since he's in you your sinful body is dead but it's not in control because you have the spirit which brings your members to do righteousness aka keep God's law.

11But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you. 12Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh. 13For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.
Therefore we are debtors to God and we should live accordingly. Because if we live a fleshly life breaking God's law's will bring death upon ourselves. On the contrary if you live righteously you shall live.

14For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God. 15For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.
You've been given this spirit not to be slaves like you were to the law of sin and death (bondage to sin) but instead you were given it to be adopted sons grafted into God's kingdom.
 
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ananda

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Someone said something about how they don't like how paul is against the law of God... I see that all the time and it drives me nuts. People don't interperet Paul correctly. I'm going to break down this passage for you guys so you can see it's true meaning and from there better understand what Paul was talking about. You'll clearly see if you pay attention and open your heart he wasn't against the law of God at all.

Thank you for your post :) My mind and spirit is open to the truth, and I pray for Messiah to show me the truth about Paul almost every day (John 8.31,32). I believe He continues to open new insights into how Paul was not who he says he is, and how he speaks both good and evil about Torah from both sides of his mouth. Like Satan, he is cunning enough to know that he should mix honey with his poison, so pointing out the honey does not negate the fact that there is evidence of poison in his words - and deeds.

For example, Gal 2:1: "Then fourteen years after, I went up again to Jerusalem with Barnabas, and took Titus with me also." Paul was away from Jerusalem for fourteen years. Why is this detail important? Read what the law required in Ex 23:17: "Three times in the year all thy males shall appear before the Lord GOD." Three times a year, all males are required to appear before Elohim in Jerusalem at the Temple for the three pilgrimage festivals. Paul evidently did not appear for fourteen years, and thus broke YHVH's law, and thus committed sin (1John 3:4)!

Is it right that an "apostle" of Messiah should commit sin so flagrantly? Is this not clear evidence that Paul himself ignored Torah (Elohim's law)?
 
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interpreter

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What makes Paul's writings "Holy Scripture"? Do you accept the Didache, or the Gospel of Thomas? or, the Gospel of Peter, the Epistle of Barnabas, the Book of Enoch? Which canon of Scripture do you follow, and why? The Protestant canon, the Catholic canon, the various Orthodox canons, Luther's canon, etc.? All of which disagree with one another?

Have you tested Paul according to Elohim's commandments (Deu 13, 18), and according to John's advice? "Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world." (1Jo 4:1)
Amen.
I have taken matters into my own hands and ripped out the writings of Paul from my Bible.
 
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ananda

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Amen.
I have taken matters into my own hands and ripped out the writings of Paul from my Bible.

Thank you for sharing, interpreter :) I haven't gone that far, but I find it helpful to have the Pauline letters in my Bible so I can mark up the contradictions for reference when I speak to followers of Paul.
 
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Gareth

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Have some taken leave of their senses? If the writings of Paul are in the Bible, then there is a justifiable reason why they are there. Not to amuse or to create friction but to educate all those who understand that the Bible is the word of God. What makes up the Bible is something not done by people, but is a product of God's holy spirit.

If the writings of Paul were in some other volume then some may have a good reason to be negative towards it. That it is contained in the Bible, and that it is God's word on things necessary for all people to come to know Him, shows that God wants the Apostle Paul's writings left in. For any who disagree with that, then they can take on the Almighty God and tell Him He got it wrong. Shame on you.
 
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Hentenza

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All that attempt to place the monkey of the Jewish law back on the backs of Christians do not like Paul. In doing so they remove from scripture and make Jesus sacrifice for nothing. The law does not save. It never has. Even the blood of goats and bulls did not atone for the sins of the world.

Paul epistles are scripture and will remain in the word of God.
 
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ananda

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Have some taken leave of their senses? If the writings of Paul are in the Bible, then there is a justifiable reason why they are there ... the Bible is the word of God. What makes up the Bible is something not done by people, but is a product of God's holy spirit. If the writings of Paul were in some other volume then some may have a good reason to be negative towards it. That it is contained in the Bible, and that it is God's word on things necessary for all people to come to know Him, shows that God wants the Apostle Paul's writings left in. For any who disagree with that, then they can take on the Almighty God and tell Him He got it wrong. Shame on you.

And who put the volume called "the Bible" together, or chose which books were to be found between its covers? As I mentioned in an earlier post, the Protestants and Jehovah's Witnesses call one collection of books "the Bible," yet Roman Catholics call a different collection "the Bible;" the Orthodox also have their own "Bible" which also has different books compared to the Protestants and Catholics. So, which one is the authentic canon, and which one was truly the product of Elohim's Holy Spirit, and why?

What about the fact that Paul's epistles were not generally considered "canon" or "authoritative Scripture" in the first century A.D.? That they were only recognized as such among some groups in the second century? The first century Ebionites, and many of the Nazarenes then (both early "denominations") considered Paul's writings heresy and Paul a false prophet and apostle.

The fact that Paul's epistles are in your canon does not automatically make them "Scripture". Elohim put the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil in the Garden, allowed Satan in the Garden, allowed Judas to be part of Messiah's inner group of 12, etc. - all for good reason - to test our love for Him, to give us an opportunity to distinguish right from wrong. If the Garden had no such Tree, then there would not have been available to Adam and Evil the opportunity to show their love for Elohim in choosing Torah or sin. Perhaps in the same way, Elohim allowed Paul into "the Bible" to test us in the same way.
 
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ananda

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All that attempt to place the monkey of the Jewish law back on the backs of Christians do not like Paul. In doing so they remove from scripture and make Jesus sacrifice for nothing. The law does not save. It never has. Even the blood of goats and bulls did not atone for the sins of the world.

I do not follow "Jewish law" - I follow YHVH Elohim's and Messiah's Law (Torah). Nor do I believe Torah itself saves; it is belief in Messiah's atoning sacrifice that saves, and in following Elohim's set-apart Way as He outlined in Torah. As Messiah said Himself: "Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven." (Mt 5:17-19)

For those who reject Torah ("the Law"), how do you reconcile your beliefs with Apostle John wrote, that "Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law." (1Jo 3:4)?
 
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Hentenza

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And who put the volume called "the Bible" together, or chose which books were to be found between its covers? As I mentioned in an earlier post, the Protestants and Jehovah's Witnesses call one collection of books "the Bible," yet Roman Catholics call a different collection "the Bible;" the Orthodox also have their own "Bible" which also has different books compared to the Protestants and Catholics. So, which one is the authentic canon, and which one was truly the product of Elohim's Holy Spirit, and why?

All 66 books of scripture are agreed upon by ALL mainstream churches from before the second history. The disagreement relates to the apocryphal books.

What about the fact that Paul's epistles were not generally considered "canon" or "authoritative Scripture" in the first century A.D.? That they were only recognized as such among some groups in the second century? The first century Ebionites, and many of the Nazarenes then (both early "denominations") considered Paul's writings heresy and Paul a false prophet and apostle.

There was no dispute regarding the majority of the epistles of Paul. The books that the early church question were James, Hebrews, and 3 John. Even Peter recognized Paul's writings as scripture.

The fact that Paul's epistles are in your canon does not automatically make them "Scripture". Elohim put the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil in the Garden, allowed Satan in the Garden, allowed Judas to be part of Messiah's inner group of 12, etc. - all for good reason - to test our love for Him, to give us an opportunity to distinguish right from wrong. If the Garden had no such Tree, then there would not have been available to Adam and Evil the opportunity to sin or show their love for Elohim (by rejecting the Tree and falsehood). Perhaps in the same way, Elohim allowed Paul into "the Bible" to test us in the same way.

Gotta love the eisegesis and false analogy.
 
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