Exodus evidence (part 2 updated)

[Ace777]

Could you, Please, read the statement of
purpose for this, the PHYSICAL SCIENCE forum, and abide by it?

That would be very good advise for you to follow. I am glad you were able to point that out.
You should also read the section on how to show respect for others.

 

[FrumiousBandersnatch]

And therein lies the disconnect between science and theology.

I'm sure even you guys will admit that absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.

As far as humans are concerned, if there's absolutely no evidence that something happened, then as far as we're concerned it didn't happen, and all claims concerning such events must, by definition, be fabricated - including guesses that God might have done some such thing ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

 

[Neogaia777]

As far as humans are concerned, if there's absolutely no evidence that something happened, then as far as we're concerned it didn't happen, and all claims concerning such events must, by definition, be fabricated - including guesses that God might have done some such thing ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

That's not necessarily true, because all evidence goes away with time sometimes, with some things, or with many things actually, etc, and this is not necessarily evidence that a thing never happened, or was made-up, or was fabricated necessarily, etc.

And you're also implying that everything in the Bible was just simply made-up, or was all just simply fabricated also?

But I do also have to ask you very much seriously if you truly and 100% objectively think you can truly believe all of that first of all, or actually? And do so 100% truly objectively? or really do 100% truly objectively think that 100% of everything in the Bible was all just truly made-up, or was all just truly 100% fabricated actually?

Because if you really do think you can say that for 100% sure, or with 100% surety, then I would most definitely have to accuse you of some very extreme and very severe bias 100% most definitely, etc. Because it isn't all fabricated or made-up actually, etc.

So why don't we start with where you might maybe have to admit that some of it is true maybe?

And go from there first maybe, etc?

God Bless.

 

[AV1611VET]

As far as humans are concerned, if there's absolutely no evidence that something happened, then as far as we're concerned it didn't happen, and all claims concerning such events must, by definition, be fabricated - including guesses that God might have done some such thing ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Does that apply to the Resurrection as well?

 

[Ace777]

If God could do such a thing,

God is a God of justice and He can only follow HIs own laws of physics. Miracles are not a violation of natural law as some people suggest. God can not do anything contrary to Himself. For example, He can not lie, cheat, steal and so on. There are lawless people today who feel we do not have to follow the law of God and they are wrong.

 

[FrumiousBandersnatch]

That's not necessarily true, because all evidence goes away with time sometimes, with some things, or with many things actually, etc, and this is not necessarily evidence that a thing never happened, or was made-up, or was fabricated necessarily, etc.

Events in the world leave evidence, whether you can detect it or not.

And you're also implying that everything in the Bible was just simply made-up, or was all just simply fabricated also?

No, I'm not implying that.

But I do also have to ask you very much seriously if you truly and 100% objectively think you can truly believe all of that first of all, or actually? And do so 100% truly objectively? or really do 100% truly objectively think that 100% of everything in the Bible was all just truly made-up, or was all just truly 100% fabricated actually?

See above. But there is good evidence that some bible stories are fabrications, which is why many people don't take them literally.

Because if you really do think you can say that for 100% sure, or with 100% surety, then I would most definitely have to accuse you of some very extreme and very severe bias 100% most definitely, etc. Because it isn't all fabricated or made-up actually, etc.

So why don't we start with where you might maybe have to admit that some of it is true maybe?

And go from there first maybe, etc?

Perhaps we should start where you just read what I said, which concerned the logical implications of claims of major real-world events that left 'absolutely no evidence'.

 

[FrumiousBandersnatch]

Does that apply to the Resurrection as well?

If there is absolutely no evidence for it, yes. See my sig.

 

[Ace777]

Events in the world leave evidence, whether you can detect it or not.

That is the amazing thing. Bacteria breaks the elements down so another life form can use them. Yet we still have fossils and other remains from a long time ago. We have people found in bogs that did not determinate much at all and the DNA was still preserved in them. Most everyone today is going to be related to anyone that lived 10,000 years ago. The only question is how direct is their connection. Of course everything that ever was is related in some sort of way. Along with DNA we do inherit some memories. God has left an amazing record of what has gone on before us.

 

[FrumiousBandersnatch]

God is a God of justice and He can only follow HIs own laws of physics. Miracles are not a violation of natural law as some people suggest.

If justice is what God says it is and natural law is God's laws of physics, that statement is tautological.

God can not do anything contrary to Himself. For example, He can not lie, cheat, steal and so on.

So God can't do what God can't do?

The God of the bible appears to lie and/or cheat, e.g. Genesis 2:17, Matthew 16:28, etc., but one could say that any such statements are not to be taken literally, or that they're errors of some sort. The idea that God could steal seems incoherent if God created everything...

Are these definitions of God your own? if not, whose - and what is their authority?

There are lawless people today who feel we do not have to follow the law of God and they are wrong.

Who says what the 'law of God' is, and on what authority? Many people have claimed to be guided by God, even within a single religion in a single culture there are differing opinions on what the laws of God require. Who is right? How do you know?

 

[Neogaia777]

@FrumiousBandersnatch

I trying to find out where you establish the goalposts between what you think is fabricated or made-up about the Bible, and what is not, or might not be, etc. So I'm going to try and find out where that is at by starting out by asking you just a few questions that I might think are somewhere in-between, or might be somewhere in the middle, but that you might think are not maybe, etc? Anyway, that's what I'm going to try and attempt to find out, ok?

You've basically said or admitted that some things in it or about it might or are or could be real or true, etc, but that still others are not in your view, etc?

So, let me just try this first just to try and find out where you are at, and then after that, or after I have a good indicator of that maybe, then I might ask you a few more later on, or after that some more maybe, ok?

And let's try this as a gauge first, etc, ok.

And let's go to the NT, with Jesus and the Apostles first, since it is the more, or is the most recent, ok.

Do you think any super or other natural was ever done by any of them at all, or that God ever did any kind of super or other natural for them any of them in the NT ever at all, etc?

Of all of them in the NT, which there is a lot, etc, do you think any of them was ever in any kind or real way real of true or not, or was ever done by some kind of super or other natural power that came or could have come from any kind of a God/god, etc?

Yes or No?

Please keep in mind that I'm just trying to find out where you are at here, etc, ok.

Take Care/God Bless.

 

[Neogaia777]

@FrumiousBandersnatch

About your reply just now to @Ace777?

Do you think God is or ever was immoral, or was ever guilty of sin, etc?

Because if you do think that, then I can very much 100% fully understand how that could create a rift or divide between you and Him actually, etc.

Because it's not an accusation against you on your part, as there is actually a lot of people who think this actually, etc.

But is it that you don't believe in any kind of God or any gods at all? or is it that you think Him immoral actually, etc?

Take Care/God Bless.

 

[AV1611VET]

If there is absolutely no evidence for it, yes. See my sig.

Your kind of evidence, right?

 

[Ace777]

If justice is what God says it is and natural law is God's laws of physics,

I said that the Justice of God is JUST as exact and precise as the Laws of Physics.
If you ever heard of the butterfly effect nature can be pretty precise and exact.

The God of the bible appears to lie and/or cheat, e.g. Genesis 2:17, Matthew 16:28,

Everyone agrees that genesis 2 17 is talking about spiritual death. That is why we need to be born again.
Matthew is talking about the church age.

Who is right? How do you know?

My father asked that question all of his life. The answer is do not trust in man but trust in God and the Holy Spirit of God to be out guide and our teacher. When God judges people it is them and God and NO ONE else. So we trust in God, not people. Not even ourselves. I have a situation I do not know what to do and I do not need to know. I can just trust it to God to work it all out for me.

 

[Ophiolite]

If you ever heard of the butterfly effect nature can be pretty precise and exact.

It is the first time I have ever heard the consequences of chaos being described as precise and exact. It seems possible your undertanding of the butterfy effect is neither precise, nor exact.

Everyone agrees that genesis 2 17 is talking about spiritual death.

Everyone? Various authorities have argued it is about physical death, in the sense of the introduction of mortality. Others have suggested a combination of spiritual and physical death. Absolutes are often, thought not always, deceptive. Worth thinking about.

I have a situation I do not know what to do and I do not need to know. I can just trust it to God to work it all out for me.

Why is it that a significant proportion of that "working it all out" results in violent death?

 

[Ace777]

It is the first time I have ever heard the consequences of chaos being described as precise and exact. It seems possible your undertanding of the butterfy effect is neither precise, nor exact.

In all my years you have described yourself more exact and precise then anyone I have ever seen.

Everyone?

Yes, everyone that is taken serious. You can make some bogus claims that no one pays any attention to. God watches over every word we speak so it is no big deal if you want to pick at the words I use because God is the one that will hold us accountable for what we say.

Matthew 12:36 But I tell you that everyone will have to give account on the day of judgment for every empty word they have spoken.

I love to joke around but we can not do that because we have to be exact and precise in what we say.

Why is it that a significant proportion of that "working it all out" results in violent death?

Actually I have died and been revived many times. God does tell me that if I had judged myself then I would not have been in a position where He would have to revive me. I just had an abrasion for Vtech, so I am up and running again for a while.

 

[Ophiolite]

In all my years you have described yourself more exact and precise then anyone I have ever seen.

You need to get out more.

Yes, everyone that is taken serious. You can make some bogus claims that no one pays any attention to. God watches over every word we speak so it is no big deal if you want to pick at the words I use because God is the one that will hold us accountable for what we say.

There are many respected Christian theologists who would disagree with that. Feel free to remain with closed, or downward looking eyes if it makes you more comfortable.

Actually I have died and been revived many times. God does tell me that if I had judged myself then I would not have been in a position where He would have to revive me. I just had an abrasion for Vtech, so I am up and running again for a while.

Now would you like to address my point, rather than ramble irrelevantly (and, one might argue, irreverently).

 

[rvs]

Exodus wasn't the cause, Egyptian loanwords in the Semitic language was accelerated by the Egypt's 18th dynasty's military expansion into the Levant.
Prior to this the Hyksos a Semitic speaking people who conquered most of Egypt formed the 16th dynasty; their name is an Egyptian loanword "ḥqꜣ-ḫꜣswt" meaning rulers of a foreign land.
In fact it was the Egyptians who used many Hyksos loanwords such as these.

View attachment 351447
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I doubt there is much similarity between Semitic to either Sanskrit or German as Semitic is part of the Afroasiatic language tree.

​

Sanskrit and German are from the Indo-European language tree.

@common prophets meet @sjastro

Lots of information you shared @sjastro I'm curious what your thoughts are about the Aryans theory (IAT) and the Out of India theory (OIT)? I think (OIT) was because Indians were in India and then left. Whereas (IAT) is due to people who came to India and then left?

@sjastro you wrote, "Exodus wasn't the cause, Egyptian loanwords in the Semitic language was accelerated by the Egypt's 18th dynasty's military expansion into the Levant."

My question:
When this happened, I learned there's 3 zones, and the 2nd zone was mainly for economically impressing others. How would this affect the 2nd zone when the military expanded into the Levant, and what was in the 2nd zone that was so impressive?

@common prophets

How did they keep their copper and bronze? Did they wear their copper and bronze, or did they mold copper and bronze into animals and into other items? What zone did they keep their copper and bronze before bringing the copper and bronze with? However, online I learned that Ancient Egyptians used the symbol "Ankh" to represent copper on their hieroglyphs. “Ankh” is also the symbol of eternal life. I wonder how copper meant eternal life?

When leaving Indus Valley India, did they also bring with them copper and bronze, and what were the similarities with how Yadavas thought about copper and bronze compared to Egyptians? Did the Indus Valley ever have 3 zones as well?

 

[Ace777]

You need to get out more.

I "got out more" plenty when I was younger. I am doing good right now to get out of bed.

There are many respected Christian theologists who would disagree with that.

Sorry, did I not give you the scripture? Are you saying they disagree with the Bible? Matthew 12 36 "But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment."

Romans 14:12
So then, each of us will give an account of himself to God.

James 3:6
The tongue also is a fire, a world of wickedness among the parts of the body. It pollutes the whole person, sets the course of his life on fire, and is itself set on fire by hell.

 

[Neogaia777]

@FrumiousBandersnatch

I trying to find out where you establish the goalposts between what you think is fabricated or made-up about the Bible, and what is not, or might not be, etc. So I'm going to try and find out where that is at by starting out by asking you just a few questions that I might think are somewhere in-between, or might be somewhere in the middle, but that you might think are not maybe, etc? Anyway, that's what I'm going to try and attempt to find out, ok?

You've basically said or admitted that some things in it or about it might or are or could be real or true, etc, but that still others are not in your view, etc?

So, let me just try this first just to try and find out where you are at, and then after that, or after I have a good indicator of that maybe, then I might ask you a few more later on, or after that some more maybe, ok?

And let's try this as a gauge first, etc, ok.

And let's go to the NT, with Jesus and the Apostles first, since it is the more, or is the most recent, ok.

Do you think any super or other natural was ever done by any of them at all, or that God ever did any kind of super or other natural for them any of them in the NT ever at all, etc?

Of all of them in the NT, which there is a lot, etc, do you think any of them was ever in any kind or real way real of true or not, or was ever done by some kind of super or other natural power that came or could have come from any kind of a God/god, etc?

Yes or No?

Please keep in mind that I'm just trying to find out where you are at here, etc, ok.

Take Care/God Bless.

@FrumiousBandersnatch, and others.

Do any of you think any of the reports that we have in the NT, by Jesus or any of the Apostles or disciples, or whatever, of any of the super or other natural they were either able to do, or were doing,bor that happened to them or with them or around them or whatever, was any of them actually "real" or actual or true in the NT, or whatever?

Now regardless of what you think about these people, or maybe even Jesus himself, or whatever, like maybe you think they were decieved, or didn't know the whole truth about certain events in the OT or whatever, events/happenings like Adam and Eve, or the creation account/story/narrative, or a literal global flood, or a literal Exodus, or whatever, anyway, regardless of all of that or whatever, and what they (including maybe even Jesus) maybe thought about those or whatever, do you think any of the super or other natural events that we have recorded in the NT, were any of them, any of them at all, actually real, or actual, or whatever?

Cause if even any of them were, etc, then that power, or that or those abilities, had to come from "somewhere", etc.

So, where do you think they came from or whatever? Or how were they able to do what they did, or whatever? Or how did what happened to them or with them or around them actually happen or whatever?

And is it possible to still get or receive this kind of power, even while maybe not having or knowing the whole truth maybe, or even maybe while believing a lie or whatever?

Tell me what you guys think about all of this, etc?

If even some of them or a few of them or even one of them in the NT was real or actual or true or whatever, then where do you think that power/ability came from or whatever?

And do you think it's still possible even while following or believing a lie, or maybe a partial lie maybe, or whatever?

God Bless.

 

[Neogaia777]

@FrumiousBandersnatch, and others.

Do any of you think any of the reports that we have in the NT, by Jesus or any of the Apostles or disciples, or whatever, of any of the super or other natural they were either able to do, or were doing,bor that happened to them or with them or around them or whatever, was any of them actually "real" or actual or true in the NT, or whatever?

Now regardless of what you think about these people, or maybe even Jesus himself, or whatever, like maybe you think they were decieved, or didn't know the whole truth about certain events in the OT or whatever, events/happenings like Adam and Eve, or the creation account/story/narrative, or a literal global flood, or a literal Exodus, or whatever, anyway, regardless of all of that or whatever, and what they (including maybe even Jesus) maybe thought about those or whatever, do you think any of the super or other natural events that we have recorded in the NT, were any of them, any of them at all, actually real, or actual, or whatever?

Cause if even any of them were, etc, then that power, or that or those abilities, had to come from "somewhere", etc.

So, where do you think they came from or whatever? Or how were they able to do what they did, or whatever? Or how did what happened to them or with them or around them actually happen or whatever?

And is it possible to still get or receive this kind of power, even while maybe not having or knowing the whole truth maybe, or even maybe while believing a lie or whatever?

Tell me what you guys think about all of this, etc?

If even some of them or a few of them or even one of them in the NT was real or actual or true or whatever, then where do you think that power/ability came from or whatever?

And do you think it's still possible even while following or believing a lie, or maybe a partial lie maybe, or whatever?

God Bless.

And I'm guessing your not going to believe Jesus was crucified and was resurrected or raised from the dead or whatever.

But what if he was resurrected from the dead, and after 40 days of appearing after that, also ascended, etc?

What if he was forgiven, and the resurrection was the proof that he was forgiven, even if he maybe didn't know all or the whole truth, or was maybe even following or believing a partial lie or whatever, etc?

And what if his and others (his followers) power was real even while maybe believing or following a partial lie or whatever, etc?

Was any of the reports of the power or ability(s) shown/displayed in the NT still "real" regardless, etc?

And if so, how did that happen, or where did it come from, etc?

There are so very many, I don't see how none of them could not be real, or are all just an elaborate trick being played on us, or are all just lies or whatever, etc?

And power/things like that must have happened somehow, or must have come from somewhere, etc.

So how do you think that is, or where do think this came from, or how do you think this could be or whatever?

God Bless.