Enjoying Bishop Angaelos & Going to my First Coptic Church Experience

[Gxg (G²)]

Glad I'm finally going to be able to go with my friends/family to this Coptic Orthodox Church near my area---known as Saint Mary Coptic Orthodox Church of Atlanta. In my studies on Orthodoxy over the years, the Copts have always been one group that has fascinated me amongst others. I have been wanting to go for a very long time now and have not had the ability due to simply living life...but from what I've investigated in the Coptic Orthodox Church, its simply beautiful.


I was able to find out about it through the lead pastor/rabbi of the fellowship I go to, as he was an Eastern Orthodox monk once and is very passionate for Eastern Christianity. He has attended the fellowship before and the hospitality of the people was very powerful... though not all churches have been like that---and on his background as well as mine, one can go either here or here for more on that dynamic/where I've come from on that matter.

For him, Eastern Christianity is significant since ( as a Jewish believer ) it has always been a blessing studying and learning of how much Eastern Christianity has made room for those who are Jewish to practice their Jewishness. Because Christianity grew out of Judaism, both religions have had common influences and often borrowed prayers and practices from each other. In some Eastern churches, for example the Coptic Orthodox Church, much would seem familiar to Jews.

Its interesting to see how the Coptic Orthodox Church, having its roots in Egypt, has it where the Coptic communities in Israel are centered in Jerusalem, Bethlehem, and Nazareth......and although there has been alot of agnst in many Coptic Circles toward those who're Jewish, it has been refreshing to see where Copts and Jews have worked together in the faith. Seeing how both groups have endured much persecution for Christ/have interconnected struggles, as others have noted, its always interesting to see how the two are deeply interconnected.



Studying Eastern Chrisitanity---especially as it concerns Coptic Orthodox development--has been very fascinating over the years...as it was very interesting to see how the Coptic Church'S history is rooted in Egyptian culture. For as one of the oldest civilizations, Egypt influenced biblical culture from the time of the Patriarchs to that of Jesus. As "granary" of the area, Egypt often served as "famine relief center" for the people of the Bible. Egypt's fertility depended on a major river whose catchment area included land far to the south, and so was less affected by localised drought. Egypt was also a place of asylum for political refugees. For many, the main thing that comes to mind with Egypt is "bondage" and "the world" ..and the main symbolism that comes with Egypt is captivity. This is seen in the Hebrew flight from Egypt that is memorialized in two of its three major feasts, Passover, and the Feast of Tabernacles....and the many references in scripture where the Lord spoke harshly of Egypt. To me, it was always amazing to see how much of the Church acts as if all references regarding Egypt in scriptures were words of condemnation-and there are many that could be discussed (if one does a simple search at Biblegateway on the matter).

Exodus 1:11 – Israel is persecuted in Egypt (Genesis 12:3).

Exodus 12:12 – God passed through the land and killed all the firstborn of Egypt, judging all their gods.

Exodus 20:2 – Egypt is called the “house of bondage.”

Deuteronomy 4:20 – Egypt is called the “iron furnace.”

Jeremiah 42:13-19 – God warns Judah pointedly, “Go ye not into Egypt: know certainly that I have admonished you this day.”

Jeremiah 46:25 – God promises punishment on Egypt.

Ezekiel 20:7 – God commands Israel not to be associated with Egypt’s idolatry.

Hosea 11:1 – God called His Son out of Egypt.

Revelation 11:8 – God compares Jerusalem in apostasy to Sodom and Egypt.
​

More could be said about examining the context of scriptures condeming Egypt...but what is clear is that Egypt was often painted in a negative light---and yet, there were many times when it seemed that Egypt was actually PRAISED by the Lord. And He said plainly that it was on his heart/desire for them to spread His NAME to the nations:

Isaiah 19:21-25
21 So the LORD will make himself known to the Egyptians, and in that day they will acknowledge the LORD. They will worship with sacrifices and grain offerings; they will make vows to the LORD and keep them. 22 The LORD will strike Egypt with a plague; he will strike them and heal them. They will turn to the LORD, and he will respond to their pleas and heal them.

23 In that day there will be a highway from Egypt to Assyria. The Assyrians will go to Egypt and the Egyptians to Assyria. The Egyptians and Assyrians will worship together. 24 In that day Israel will be the third, along with Egypt and Assyria, a blessing[a] on the earth. 25 The LORD Almighty will bless them, saying, “Blessed be Egypt my people, Assyria my handiwork, and Israel my inheritance.”
​

The Lord made plain in His Word that the Egyptians would be a people whom He'd use mightly for His glory. With Egypt, the Lord expressed its entire admission to religious privileges (Ro 9:24-26; 1Pe 2:9-10, etc). When it came to His working with the Hebrews in the conquest of Cannan, it has always been interesting to consider how the intended recipients of salvation were not only Jews, but also Israel’s most hostile enemies! Assyria, Egypt, Babylon, and Philistia are included (Psalm 87:4-6; Isaiah 19:23-5). Even the Canaanites whom Israel fought against were incorporated into the new Israel, the true people of God (Zechariah 9:6 [the “Jebusite,” who has been assimilated into Israel]; cp. Matthew 15:22). ..


Moreover, the Lord noted to Israel how they were not to despise the Egyptians...and that they'd be welcome to come into the assembly of the Lord ( Deuteronomy 23:6-8 ).


And with the Egyptians glorifying the Lord like Isaiah prophesied, IMHO, this is seen nowhere better than with the Egyptians currently apart of the Coptic Orthodox Church. There are other Egyptians who are believers and not about of Coptic Orthodoxy---and thus, I'm not saying I believe the Lord doesn't utilize others outside of Orthodoxy for His glory. But I've seen the Coptic Orthodox Church as exceptionally strong in the Work of Christ. One excellent place to go for review was by one Coptic Orthodox ministry discussing the symbolism of Egypt in scripture as a safehaven..

On some good video documentaries on them:

Christians of the Nile Valley-History of the Coptic Orthodox Church(Part 1 of 2). ​

Christians of the Nile Valley-History of the Coptic Orthodox Church(Part 2 of 2).​

Coptic Orthodox Church of South Africa (Part-1).​

Coptic Orthodox Church of South Africa (Part-2). ​

But if anyone here has ever been to a Coptic Orthodox Church, I would be very curious as to what it was that you personally found to be beautiful with the things they do. I understand that they're not within the same realm as Eastern Orthodoxy since they're of the Oriental Orthodox Church....though I do understand that many in Coptic Orthodoxy and Eastern Orthodoxy have interacted/had cross-polinization of thought and ministry. With the Copts, I know that they've often gone through much persecution---especially in Egypt---and to see their steadfast devotion is always a blessing. One of the Bishops within the Coptic Orthodox Church whom I've always been inspired by is H.G. Bishop Angaelos ---as he has truly been a beacon of hope for the Church. And he has had some of the most amazing insights when it comes to serving the Lord. For more, one can go here to see some of his sermons:

• Sermons : H.G. Bishop Angaelos
• A View from HG Bishop Angaelos of the Coptic Orthodox Church and
• CopticStudents - Downloads | H.G. Bishop Angaelos | Sermons | Audio
• H.G. Bishop Angaelos - New Podcasts | + www.BishopAngaelos.org + +
  
  

On some of the video interviews I've come across by him...and that were given to me for investigation:

H.G. Bishop Angaelos at the BBC - 3/01/2011 ​

The Most Important Thing - Out of Egypt ​

H G Bishop Angaelos in COYA Winter Conference 2011, Sydney, Australia, June 2011 Theme Filled with the Spirit ​

His heart for interfaith relations has always been something that has caused me to rethink my stances...and as a Youth Worker, I'm very glad for the ways in which he imparts to so many young adults when it comes to passionately serving the Lord. I have always wanted to attend onde of his conferences since he travels extensively, lecturing to Coptic youth at various youth conventions and conferences throughout the world. The work he did with establishing the ‘Coptic City Mission', a group of youth who visit the homeless on the streets of London every week, distributing food, clothes and a comforting word....its a blessing to see his desire to teach people how to give back in light of all that they've been given.

So many young adults I've seen do not really have any depth in their walks with the Lord--even though there is plenty of entertaiment going on in the name of "Youth Ministry." What the Bishop has done for the youths he works with truly meets a spiritual need in the soul to have connection to Ancient Faith and understanding how one is to serve Christ...in ways that are both deeply practical...and yet profoundly intimate at the same time.



On a side note, if anyone else knows of Bishop Angaelos, would love to hear what they thought of him and his work. Does anyone here within Eastern Orthodoxy ever reference his work or examples when it comes to ministry? I would love to see him at the church I'm going to this weekend, but that may not happen sadly---but the place I'm going to knows of him, I believe. It should be a wonderful time simply being able to go...


As it concerns the OP, again, I'd love to hear any thoughts that people have about their experiences with Coptic Orthodoxy. Do you feel that Coptic Orthodoxy is a blessing to you in your experiences within Eastern Orthodoxy..and what is it that you feel they contribute to the Body of Christ? Whatever's shared, would love to hear..


Shalom

 

[ProScribe]

Thanks for sharing.

 

[θεόδωρος]

Very interesting! Thank-you for sharing with us.

 

[MariaRegina]

Thanks for posting those you tube videos.

And the beautiful pictures ... but they take up so much space.

 

[Gxg (G²)]

Thanks for sharing.

Blessings

 

[Gxg (G²)]

Very interesting! Thank-you for sharing with us.

Really digging the name you have, as it is very engaging

 

[Gxg (G²)]

Thanks for posting those you tube videos.
.

Not a problem. Curious as to whether or not you've ever heard of the man in the videos before....

And the beautiful pictures

If I could make a book (or at least find one in existence) of the artistic design in many of the Coptic Orthodox churches--as well as Oriental Orthodoxy and Eastern Christian Iconagraphy in general--I'd buy it quickly. There are some excellent reads on the history/development of the Coptic Orthodox Church....one of which is labeled Two Thousand Years of Coptic Christianity by Otto F. A. Meinardus ..though I would like to find more works dedicated SOLELY to discussing the role of Coptic Orthodox Art. For I greatly appreciate the reality of what many within Orthodoxy understand (and those outside as well with the same mindset) when it comes to seeing how much art is apart of ministry unto the Lord----no more different than what occurred in the OT with artistic designs as a representation of the Heavenlies ( Exodus 26:1-3, Exodus 35:34-35, Exodus 31:1-10 , Exodus 36:7-9, Exodus 39:26-28, etc ). I wish more were aware of the sheer importance of Iconagraphy when it comes to worshipping Christ--but so many downplay what Iconagraphy symbolizes whenever it seems that the focus is upon the saints gathering together and worshipping predominately in song or the ministry of the Word/Scriptures and Sacraments.


As it concerns the thread, Coptic Iconagraphy and Coptic artwork is nice to behold---and for some excellent places one can go for review:

• Coptic Icons
• Coptic Iconography
• Coptic Icon E-gallery
• The Coptic Network Picture Archive
• a birdseye view of coptic iconography

One thing I was interested in studying was examining the ways that Iconography within the Coptic Orthodox world may differ from what occurs in Eastern Orthodox circles...if there is any significant differences at all when it comes to techniques/designs and what goes into it all. From what I heard by one Coptic Orthodox source, Coptic Icons have a very specific style of Coptic art that is used universally within the churches and involves others deliberately making them to look unrealistic and out of proportion... to some extent “cartoony” so as to differentiate the icons from idols and making sure nobody worships it or prays to the imagery directly. It may be something I'll ask the members of the Coptic Orthodox church I'm visiting next Saturday when I'm able...​

Some of the things learned in the expereince are sadly things I can't share with everyone...for I know others in certain camps would take issue in the name of claiming "that's worshipping images!!!"--but that's foolish, IMHO, as even the early church fathers addressed the issue within the church. For the icons truly served to remind others of those before them... a great cloud of witnesses (Hebrews 11) that surrounds/reminds us of those who've gone before us.....and that's something that, IMHO, should never be dismissed when considering how reminders from those before us help us glorify Christ. Though I'd be nervous sharing with others some of the things experienced in Orthodoxy, I'm willing to take heat for it since truth doesn't need approval for it to be true. My only fear is what happens when others can misunderstand what's said and diminish or desecrate what's given to them. For I'd rather not speak about the things on my heart to others at all if I know they'll not value them...and possibly slander the good that I've seen in Orthodoxy when it comes to Icons. But I'm very glad for others such as Fr. Jack N. Sparks PhD who did excellent work trying to discuss the issue for Protestants who'd make arguments I'm wary of facing......as seen here--and I'm also glad that there are others coming from Evangelicalism that can really aid in bridging the gap for others. Fo rmany are often prone to making mistakes due to issues of translation when it comes to Orthodox Phenomenology

On some of the places I researched/looked up for my own study:

• The Way of Beauty
• Calvin vs. the Icon - Liturgica
• Protestantism's Eastern Blind Spot « Orthocath
• The Evangelical Blind Spot Ending? « Orthocath "
• Eastern “Blind Spot” or “Cross-Pollination”? « Orthocath
• THE SACRED IN ART AND ARCHITECTURE: - Aidan Hart Icons
• Aidan Hart on Diversity Within Iconography - An Artistic Pentecost
• Protestant and Orthodox Icons and Idols: A Reflection » The ConneXion ...
• MONKS AND MERMAIDS ( A Benedictine Blog ): THE IMPORTANCE OF ICONS

but they take up so much space

My apologies if they seem too big, as I'm used to reading threads where the screen is a bit wider with pictures. But I'll try to find smaller ones next time .

 

[MariaRegina]

Can you hide the extra large photos by using a spoiler. In that way, this thread will be returned to normal.

A mod might help if you were to report your own post.

 

[Gxg (G²)]

Can you hide the extra large photos by using a spoiler. In that way, this thread will be returned to normal.

A mod might help if you were to report your own post.

Got ya. Don't know what a spoiler is, though thankfully its not as if the pictures from the first page make up the thread size later on...as it goes back to normal once it goes to another page. If nothing else, I may just go back and try to see if I could find some smaller pictures of the same ones I have above since I'd rather keep those since they stood out to me. .

On a side note, I don't know if you perhaps missed my question from earlier...for in the youtube videos you thanked me for sharing,I was curious as to whether or not you've ever heard of Bishop Angaelos before---and within the OP discussion, I was curious if anyone here who is Eastern Orthodox has ever had any encounters with Coptic Orthodoxy/members within it.

 

[MariaRegina]

P.s. The photos are messing up this thread big time for me.

Anyway, I do not recall seeing/hearing this bishop before.

I have attended the new Coptic Church in Northridge, California.
We went with my godmother.

In my undergraduate years, I had to do a report for my college class on Intercultural Diversity, so I chose to attend that church. It was wonderful.

Also, I have attended a lecture series at St. Mary Church (Cathedral?) in Eagle Rock, California. That church has beautiful icons.

 

[JesusIsTheWay33]

Bishop Angaelos is certainly impressive. I wish we had bishops that pastoral, intelligent, and clear in the Catholic Church. The video with the young people is particularly impressive.

 

[ArmyMatt]

love Coptic icons. thanks for sharing!

 

[Gxg (G²)]

Very interesting! Thank-you for sharing with us.

Thank you for your kind words

Curious as to what in specific you found to be interes to you, though I agree that there are many dynamics involved with the Coptic Orthodox that are very interesting.


I'm very glad for the welcome/ability to be able to come...as a Non-ORTHODOX member...and feel the freedom of sharing things without having to be starred at just because someone's not Orthodox themselves....and its cool to know that others can share things they find interesting when they're seeking fellowship---and yet they can know that can learn from the views of others in what they find interesting while also valuing what they think is of interest.

Coming from a Messianic Jewish camp, I tend to lean more so toward being fascinated in seeing the Judaic within Coptic Orthodoxy than anything else...though that tends to be the case with anything concerning Orthodoxy. I discussed some of this more in-depth elsewhere in another thread I made entitled Ethopian Orthodoxy vs Eastern Orthodoxy: Which one's closer to 1st Century Judaism? --and the same in another from#19 from the thread entitled Symbols in Judaism versus Icons in Christianity...as it was noted there how one of my other Messianic Brothers in the Lord have the same mindset when it comes to seeing many beautiful aspects of the Judaic worldview in liturgical circles like Orthodoxy.

Just as it was with the Ethopian Jews involved in the ETHOPIAN Orthodox Church and having that variation of Orthodoxy being perhaps the most in line with Judaic practices because of the people having strong connection with their Jewish roots, it seems to be the case that the Coptic Orthodox Church has had some of the same dynamics....paticularly in light of how much of the Coptic/Jewish practices seemed to merge at certain points of history and the Coptics borrowed many practices from what was seen in Judaism.

There's an excellent review of the subject here, concerning the history of Coptic Orthodoxy and examining the Hebraic influences on Coptic church



Sadly, I've heard accounts of how there is apparently much Anti-Semitism within certain circles of Coptic Orthodoxy.....and being involved with Orthodoxy as a former monk, the Messianic Jewish Rabbi of my fellowship at Congregation Miskan David noted similar things when it comes to distinct segments within the Coptic Orthodox Church that seemed to not really like Jewish culture well---paticularly things in regards to the Israeli State and its treatment of the Palestinians, as well as comments from certain leaders in the Coptic Orthodox church.


One that comes to mind is what was said back in 2007 when Pope Shenouda III of Alexandria ( The leader of the Coptic Church , to my knowledge ) told Egyptian television that the Western Churches were wrong to exonerate Jews for the crucifixion of Jesus Christ, and criticized recent statements apologizing for Christian anti-Semitism. There was also something I was learning about as it concerns the Coptic leader (or "the Coptic Patriarch") made something akin to a ban by asking others to NOT go to Jerusalem due to the “occupation”..

Some who were once members of the Coptic Orthodox Chuch have have spoken out on certain issues..and for many, it has been bothersome to see what appears as a bent toward siding with those who may be for Islamic Ideology more so than with the Jews. For more, one can investigate here at an article I came across entitled The Politics Behind Egyptian Christian Anti-Semitism - News | Orthodoxy Cognate PAGE .... or Anti-Semitism and the Coptic Orthodox Church | Seismic Shock


Of course, I don't agree with all things said by those claiming that the Coptic Church is against the Jewish people and automatically for siding with all things Islamic/related to Muslims---for to me, that's foolish and far too simplistic of a view when there are enormous accounts of things occurring such as Coptic Christian girls being abducted by Muslims...or terrorist attacks happening against Coptic Christians by radical Muslims just as there've been attacks toward Jews.

Additionally, it is often the case that people can misconstrue condemnation of the actions of Israelis/the State of Israel and Zionism as if it is somehow "ANTI-Semitic"....and that is error, IMHO, since there are just as many Jewish camps/organizations that disagree with the State of Israel as there are others who are Non-Jewish.

Where the Coptic Orthodox Church vehemently disagrees with corrupted versions of Zionism or the treatment of Palestinians/Non-Jewish indivudals and feels that the Israeli state is not truly doing according to the mandate of scripture, that is not necessarily a denouncement toward all Jewish people..just as it wasn't a problem within the scriptures when Jewish leaders/prophets often spoke against the nations of Israel/Judah when it sinned against others.

For more, one can go here..or to the following:

• The Coptic Orthodox Church and Zionism

Additionally, more was discussed elsewhere in here/#47 & #135---and one of my Messianic Jewish brothers began a thread on the issue in the Coptic forum, as seen here in Why the ban?

For many, they really don't feel its appropriate to support the State of Israel so long as it does things counter to the scriptures...and to many, the modern State of Israel isn't really "Israel" of the Bible anyhow. There were MANY Jews who were very upset when the nation was established in the 1940's and felt that they had to be dispersed from their homelands just to return to what others were saying was a "home"

And this was especially the case for those who were Egyptian/Coptic Jews.

Additionally, it is not Anti-Semitic to note that those who were apart of killing the Lord (as well as many prophets) were Jewish since that is what the scriptures note. Even though the sins of all groups in existence forced Jesus to die on our behalf, it is historical that the Jews were the ones whom the scriptures declare played a role in crucifying the Messiah:

• “O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them” (Luke 13:34)




• “Then took they [Jews] up stones to cast at him” (John 8:59; 10:31; 11:8)

• Acts 2:23 you (Jews) with the help of wicked men put him to death by nailing him to the cross ​

• [Acts 2:36 God has made this Jesus who you (Jews) crucified, both Lord and Christ​
  
  
  
  

• “ . . . they feared the people, lest they should have been stoned (Acts 5:26)

• “ . . . cast him out of the city, and stoned him . . . And they stoned Stephen” . . . And having stoned Paul (Acts 7:58-59 & 14:19)​

​

Nonetheless, I have seen what appears to be alot of angst from Coptic Orthodox (in specific circles) toward Jews..some of it being among certain leaders within Orthodoxy and some of it (from what I heard) being in line with commentary that does blast the Jewish people as a WHOLE for what occurred to Christ---a very uncessary/inaccurate thing to believe since there were MANY Jewish groups/individuals who actively supported Christ in all things.....and followed the Father. I don't agree with others who blame all the Jews in existence for what occurred to Jesus, nor do I think its right for others to assume that what occurs with the Israeli State/seeming violations of human rights is somehow equivalent to what all Jews support.

To me, just because one group is slandered doesn't mean that they should do so in return...and though others disagree, I think its saddening where certain camps in the Coptic Orthodox Church may've done so...regardless of what it may be facing/having to contend against. Though it happens everywhere and Anti-Semitism is something of a cancer to the body, it is a pity to see where it may exist amongst some who are within Coptic Orthodoxy.

And to me, its amazing to see that in light of scripture:

Acts 2:5-11
5 Now there were staying in Jerusalem God-fearing Jews from every nation under heaven. When they heard this sound, a crowd came together in bewilderment, because each one heard their own language being spoken. Utterly amazed, they asked: “Aren’t all these who are speaking Galileans? Then how is it that each of us hears them in our native language? Parthians, Medes and Elamites; residents of Mesopotamia, Judea and Cappadocia, Pontus and Asia, Phrygia and Pamphylia, Egypt and the parts of Libya near Cyrene; visitors from Rome (both Jews and converts to Judaism); Cretans and Arabs—we hear them declaring the wonders of God in our own tongues!”



​

The Book of Acts 1 already refers to the Jews of Egypt who were already present at Pentecost --Coptic Jews----and upon their return, they most likely spread the Gospel of Christ ./conveyed what they saw and heard to their relatives..that others might be impacted and the groundwork for what would later occur for Coptic Orthodox Church foundations would be possible.

However, though there has been much tension in recent years in the Middle East when it comes to relations between the Coptic Church and the State of Israel, it is thankfully not the case that those tensions have not adversely affected Jewish-Coptic relations in Egypt....and for those who may be Coptic Jews/Biracial, its a big deal. Moreover, even within Coptic Orthodoxy, not all within are supportative (from what I've seen) of the comments coming from certain leaders that seem to be anti-semitic. Ministries speaking on such are groups such as "Voice of the Copts | Standing Up Against Religious Bigotry and Intolerance....

For other resources on the issue of those who are Jews within Egypt...if interested.....one may wish to consider going here/investigating the following:

• Out of Egypt
• HISTORICAL SOCIETY OF JEWS FROM EGYPT
• Guernica Magazine (guernica.com) on the last Jews of Cairo

On some excellent books on the subject of Coptic Jews as well as Coptic Orthodoxy in its work with Jews----for those who are interested--one can investigate the following:

• The Jews in modern Egypt, 1914-1952 - Page 128
• The Jews in Hellenistic and Roman Egypt: the struggle for equal rights By Aryeh Kasher
• The Dispersion Of Egyptian Jewry Culture, Politics, And The Formation Of A Modern Diaspora
  
  
  
  
• A History of the Jewish people - Page 369
• Introduction to the Coptic Orthodox Church - Page 17
• The Jews of Egypt: from Rameses II to Emperor Hadrian
  

Egypt's Lost Jews Part 1.flv

Egypt's Lost Jews Part 2.flv​

Egypt's Lost Jews Part 3 ​

If you have any thoughts on the issue, I'd love to hear sometime. If not, cool...and thanks again for the kind words!! Shalom...​

 

[Gxg (G²)]

I do not recall seeing/hearing this bishop before.

I have attended the new Coptic Church in Northridge, California.
We went with my godmother.

Would love to investigate the church you mentioned...

In my undergraduate years, I had to do a report for my college class on Intercultural Diversity, so I chose to attend that church. It was wonderful.

Love the opportunities that those classes afford others in college --especially when one is allowed to do homework and yet worship all at once

Also, I have attended a lecture series at St. Mary Church (Cathedral?) in Eagle Rock, California. That church has beautiful icons.

Curious as to what the name of the lecture series in specific was...

 

[Gxg (G²)]

Bishop Angaelos is certainly impressive. I wish we had bishops that pastoral, intelligent, and clear in the Catholic Church. The video with the young people is particularly impressive.

I agree with you, though I'd also say that Bishops such as Angaelos would be a blessing anywhere in the Church, Catholic or not The man is simply a gem for Messiah. The video with the young people is truly one of the most impactful I've seen....as it shows a differing side of what working in Youth Ministry was meant to be about--and what it means for Christians to truly be about seeking to reach out to others rather than others only pouring into them.

Of course, as it concerns outreach, it seems that where Bishop Angalelos is with tends to be very much focused upon outreach toward others in general. For more on that, one can look up the British Orthodox Church in the UK. There was a thread elsewhere on the issue that gives more detail--entitled The British Orthodox Church .The BOC is in full communion with the Coptic church, but it conducts liturgy in English.....something very striking since they don't have to do so. The rabbi of my fellowship, as shared earlier, experienced it where they literally changed the ENTIRE format of their liturgy of the Coptic Orthodox Church he went to just so that the English newcomers would not be lost...and that was truly astounding. Much of their energy is directed towards mission. It does seem that within Oriental Orthodoxy--and dare I say, Orthodoxy in general, they seem to be the most evangelistic.


From the British Orthodox Church, according to their website:

"Each year the number of Western Christians finding a secure, stable and transforming life in Orthodoxy is growing. The British Orthodox Church is made up almost entirely of converts from a wide range of Christian backgrounds, other religions and no faith at all. We have all come together to find the fullness of the Christian life in Orthodoxy."


​

For more, as it concerns what they're doing and how they're trying to fulfill their mission for outreach to those in the UK interested in Orthodoxy, one can go here . One can also go here to the Orthodox Unity Website for more:

• Orthodox Unity - Supporting the Joint Commission

​

And on other threads that had some excellent discussion on the subject:

• Conversion

• How "evangelical" is your Coptic Church?

 

[Gxg (G²)]

love Coptic icons. thanks for sharing!

Are there any specific Coptic Icons you have in mind? Would love to see if you thought of any--but if you like them all as well, that's cool too . Coptic artwork is truly stunning..and as an artist, I'd love to learn how to master the skill in doing such unto the Lord. Some of my favorites:

Thanks for the shout-out, by the way....as I'm glad what was shared blessed someone..

 

[MariaRegina]

If you have any thoughts on the issue, I'd love to hear sometime. If not, cool...and thanks again for the kind words!! Shalom...​

What is the occasion of this picture?

 

[Gxg (G²)]

What is the occasion of this picture?

Those are some of the Jews of Egypt (Coptic Jews) that were discussed in the post which the picture hailed from....before that group (and many others) were exiled from Egypt during the Arab-Israeli conflict. One can verify on the picture here at the organization dedicated to keeping the memory alive of the Jews who lived in Egypt...and have had a bit of a gradual cultural "genocide" with much of their roots there being eradicated slowly. During the Diaspora from Egypt, not all Jews fled---and some stayed within the Coptic Orthodox Church, to my knowledge, or at least agreed with it when it came to being against many of Israel's stances/its formation. But I'm hoping to find out more when I visit the Coptic Orthodox Church with my Messianic Jewish family soon.

I'm assuming you have heard of those who are Coptic Jews or Jews within the Coptic Orthodox Church, correct?

 

[MariaRegina]

Those are some of the Jews of Egypt (Coptic Jews) that were discussed in the post which the picture hailed from....before that group (and many others) were exiled from Egypt during the Arab-Israeli conflict. Of course, not all fled---and some stayed within the Coptic Orthodox Church, to my knowledge, or at least agreed with it when it came to being against many of Israel's stances/its formation.

I'm assuming you have heard of those who are Coptic Jews or Jews within the Coptic Orthodox Church, correct?

No. Could you please provide more information.

Are they still Jewish or are they Orthodox Christians who practice Jewish customs?

At my community college, when I was a student there, I met a fellow whose family was force converted to Islam, but they retained their Jewish identity (secretly so as not to offend the authorities). He was from Morocco. They moved to the USA, but still consider themselves to be Muslim, but Jews too.

 

[Gxg (G²)]

No. Could you please provide more information..

Certainly, though some of it I tried to provide in the thread where the picture you asked about came from. Specifically, what is it you'd like more information about? Copts working with Jews...or Copts within Orthodoxy who are Jewish? To be clear, as said earlier, there are still some things I've been seeking to get more interaction with others on so I can have more verification---and I'm hoping to do some interviews with the members at the Church I'm attending Saturday so I can see what their thoughts are. Its different, of course, as not within a fellowship will have experienced life in Egypt ..but to see their thoughts will also be a blessing

Are they still Jewish or are they Orthodox Christians who practice Jewish customs?

From what I understand, some are Coptic/Egyptian Jewish and whereas others may be Coptic who are Orthodox Christians that seek to go about still practicing Jewish Customs...similar to how the Ethopian Orthodox Christians have done when it comes to their keeping many things that are practiced in Judaism because of their strong ties with their Hebraic roots..and that's said mainly because much of Coptic culture is a mixture of various others, including Judaic dyanmics.

At my community college, when I was a student there, I met a fellow whose family was force converted to Islam, but they retained their Jewish identity (secretly so as not to offend the authorities).


He was from Morocco.
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I pray the family you met is doing well and hasn't lost faith in Christ....as it can be hard. And many other families may've had to go through the same things. I do grieve greatly for what they've had to face over there...




Seeing how extensive Islam seems to be there, its sad to see that they have to hide their background...especially when considering that at many points Egypt was very open to Chrisitianity and the School of Alexandria in Alexandria, Egypt is a key center for Christiantianity. But sometimes, you must do what you have to do to survive...and I'm not surprised in light of how much violence occurs. The Egypt bomb that killed 21 at Alexandria Coptic church--even after threats had been going on for weeks and the Church stood steadfast---is but one example that it can be tempting to go undercover in order to survive....and to a degree, I cannot disagree since even the apostles themselves had to hide at times.

Some would be for the mindset of simply being out in the open/not hiding and doing confrontation---such as what occurred when Elijah challenged Baal's worshippers/sees fire sent down from Heaven by God in I Kings 18( )..but many note how there'd be nothing wrong with hiding others/appearing to be different, just as 1 Kings 18:3-15 noted when it came to Obadiah noting how he had hidden away a good number of prophets in caves BEFORE Elijah's confrontation with Ahab...all the while serving in the corrupt king's court/appearing to be faithful to him....and there are many other examples throughout scripture where the same seemed to occur.


Concerning the familiy keeping safe by hiding their identities, the term "Crypto-Christianity" comes to mind --which refers to the secret practice of the Christian religion, usually while attempting to camouflage it as another faith or observing the rituals of another religion publicly. In places and time periods where Christians were persecuted or Christianity was outlawed, instances of crypto-Christianity have surfaced before. In example, when it comes to Churches in China meeting under false pretenses as if they're with the state religion and using "dummy corporations" in order to have church meetings for true believers, this is something that many in the West would probably condemn. But due to Circumstances regarding persecution, it's a necessity--just as it was throughout various points in history, including the time when Hitler controlled much of the Church and believers claimed to belong to the organization and yet in secret they smuggled out Jews from the country/sabatouge from within


Its amazing to see how Crypto-Christianity can be a stength at times rather than a hinderence.....as those who've had to go underground while appearing above the surface as if they're different can often use it to their advantage....and the same experience has gone or those within Judaism who were often scattered all over/forced to adapt to what the dominant culture believed while secretly practicing their faith. Many had to assimilate into the larger cultures/appear one way in order to operate on any level---whereas others may've gone underground and come back to the surface years later.....only to be radically different than when they first went below. One group coming to mind is the Kakure Kirishtan, hidden Japanese believers in Japan who went underground after MASSIVE persecution began against Catholic believers---for they've actually developed into something radically different from those who helped in their foundations since they were cut off from access to the outside world for centuries. There was discussion on the subject elsewhere on the Catholic Forums here in #32 /in a thread entitled "Zen" in place of "Zion": Is Crypto-Christianity justified within Catholicism?

Another group that automatically comes to mind with Crypto-Christianity is the Marano Jews, , as they were forced to convert to Catholicism while they stayed Jewish underground in New Mexico. For more, one resource dealing with the issue can be found at Crypto Jews (hidden Jews) | Beth HaDerech; Messianic Jewish Congregation, Toronto, Canada. Another one is a specific book I was able to come across earlier this year that was a very intriguing/ good study--as seen in the book "To the end of the earth: a history of the crypto-Jews of New Mexico". .as it was a trip to see how many other New Mexican Hispanics have recently begun to explore their families' customs and are only beginning to examine their possible blended lineage.

They moved to the USA, but still consider themselves to be Muslim, but Jews too

Curious as to how they renconcile the two.....as everyone's different and I know others who seem to have differing beliefs of how to go about that--especially if one person in a couple is Jewish whereas the other is Muslim. Though I believe that its possible personally and have been glad I was able to discuss the issue with my Messianic Jewish brothers/sisters--others may think otherwise...but it could be theoretically possible to be both Muslim and Jewish when it comes to the many ways in which the two cultures share many similarities.

There are similar individuals/organizations that've sought to bring up similar perspectives when it comes to that subject---and for some excellent examples, one may consider going online/investigating a ministry under the name of "People of the Book -Following Isa along the straight path", . The other organization similar to that is actually a conference I went to recently that was truly amazing....known as "Jesus in the Qur'an | Radically Transforming The Conversation" , in connection with the ministry known as Generation Salaam.