ELCA vs Lutheran Congregations Missions for Christ (LCMC)

[A_JAY]

I have been attending an ELCA Lutheran Church for over a year.

What I am concerned about is their light view of Scripture and the Confessions and the ELCA statement on the Joint Declaration of Justification by faith and the Declaration on the way. ELCA and RCC state there are no longer any church dividing issues.

It seems that the ELCA has abandoned justification by faith alone, now view the Lord's Supper as a sacrifice, and now have bought into the RCC view of purgatory. One item that keeps the ELCA from going forward with the differences between them and RCC on "sexuality" which probably includes ordination of homosexuals, homosexual marriage, and ordination of females.

I am looking at another Lutheran Denom, an LCMC church. The sermons of the pastor seem scriptural and the Statement of Faith of LCMC emphasizes scripture and the Confessions of the Lutheran Church.

How do they compare to the ELCA with the issues that I have concern about?
[I am giving my opinion not to debate but to get some discussion on LCMC.]

 

[Doulosiesou]

Seems to me most churches like to focus on issues which require centuries of commentary and arguments. This creates a dependency on a priestly class, instead of disciplining and growing in our Christian maturity.

 

[Doulosiesou]

I mean think about it, we've had over 2,000 years to get it all just right, right? What happened with the early Church? They were radically transforming the world, healing the sick, raising the dead all sorts of signs and miracles.

What happened? IMO we allowed our arguments to get in the way of our maturity.

$0.02

 

[HereIStand]

Having been LCMS, my impression is that they would oppose the joint statement on justification by faith, and that they would have closed communion to varying degrees. Some would be closed communion expect for those who hold a Lutheran understanding of the real presence. Others would be closed communion expect for those who are in full agreement with the Lutheran confessions.

 

[FireDragon76]

I have been attending an ELCA Lutheran Church for over a year.

What I am concerned about is their light view of Scripture and the Confessions and the ELCA statement on the Joint Declaration of Justification by faith and the Declaration on the way. ELCA and RCC state there are no longer any church dividing issues.

I don't think that's what has been said. Just a lifting of anathemas and some acknowledgement of basic agreement on some things.

It seems that the ELCA has abandoned justification by faith alone, now view the Lord's Supper as a sacrifice, and now have bought into the RCC view of purgatory.

No, we are still committed to a Lutheran understanding of justification and the Lord's Supper and distinguishing between the sacrifice of praise on the part of the faithful, and the sacrament given by God. That we are now much less hostile to the Roman Catholic positions should not be seen as a change in our theology.

One item that keeps the ELCA from going forward with the differences between them and RCC on "sexuality" which probably includes ordination of homosexuals, homosexual marriage, and ordination of females.

The Roman church is more committed to legalism in ethics, at least officially. Unofficially, many Roman Catholics are committed to personalist ethics.

Our understanding of the ordained ministry is different from the LCMS. We see the ordained ministry of Word and Sacrament as differing from the ministry of the laity only in terms of calling. Since women are already ministers of Christ, we see no reason why they cannot also be called by God as ministers of Word and Sacrament. However, whom an ELCA congregation calls as pastor is ultimately up to the local congregation in the end. Most of our congregations have male pastors, without disparaging the calling of other congregation's pastors.

How do they compare to the ELCA with the issues that I have concern about?
[I am giving my opinion not to debate but to get some discussion on LCMC.]

ELCA churches are very much congregationalist in tone. The national church denomination provides shared resources for local congregations, but a great deal is left up to the local church council and pastor. You'ld be better off looking at what your local congregations are doing, to judge them as churches.

 

[A_JAY]

I don't think that's what has been said. Just a lifting of anathemas and some acknowledgement of basic agreement on some things.
........

ELCA churches are very much congregationalist in tone, and a great deal is left up to the local congregation. The national church denomination provides shared resources for local congregations, but a great deal is left up to the local church council and pastor. You'ld be better off looking at what your local congregations are doing, to judge them as churches.

Thank you for the reply. I suspect that the Congregation is more Conservative than the Denomination. I also see current pastor as a big promoter of all things ELCA. An earlier pastor, I think, is much more aligned to the Congregation.

 

[FireDragon76]

Thank you for the reply. I suspect that the Congregation is more Conservative than the Denomination. I also see current pastor as a big promoter of all things ELCA. An earlier pastor, I think, is much more aligned to the Congregation.

That's normal in the ELCA. Denominational statements do not always reflect the local church. It's also not too rare for conservatives to find a home in the ELCA, even with all the recent changes at the denominational level. It just depends on who they like rubbing shoulders with, potentially. Chaplain Mike at Internet Monk is a good example of a former conservative evangelical that prefers the more "mainline" identity of the ELCA, because there is a great deal of personal and congregational freedom while still remaining focused on the Gospel.

 

[A_JAY]

Update: I found several posts in 2010 regarding LCMC and just found Wikipedia link.
Apparently more confessional than ELCA. Many ELCA congregations left and joined LCMC after the ELCA
allowed homosexual ordination and homosexual marriage. Female pastors are allowed. Left up to Congregations. Very congregational, very little hierarchy, no bishops. "Higher" view of scripture.

Lutheran Congregations in Mission for Christ - Wikipedia

 

[Tigger45]

Update: I found several posts in 2010 regarding LCMC and just found Wikipedia link.
Apparently more confessional than ELCA. Many ELCA congregations left and joined LCMC after the ELCA
allowed homosexual ordination and homosexual marriage. Female pastors are allowed. Left up to Congregations. Very congregational, very little hierarchy, no bishops. "Higher" view of scripture.

Lutheran Congregations in Mission for Christ - Wikipedia

From my experience and my wife and I attend a LCMC congregation regularly is that the LCMC is more conservative than the ELCA but not necessarily more confessional than the ELCA. Case in point is that Law & Gospel isn't very pronounced as in a self proclaimed confessional Lutheran body.

 

[FireDragon76]

From my experience and my wife and I attend a LCMC congregation regularly is that the LCMC is more conservative than the ELCA but not necessarily more confessional than the ELCA. Case in point is that Law & Gospel isn't very pronounced as in a self proclaimed confessional Lutheran body.

Law and Gospel are part of the preaching and practice at our ELCA congregation, though the pastor doesn't have a wooden approach.

LCMS types like to speak of "quaetenus" subscription ("in so far as" it is in accordance with the Word of God) to the confessions but that is a term I have never heard used among ELCA Lutherans. I think we emphasize that the Lutheran confessions are not the last word on what we can say about God and theology, coming from a broad approach found in Scandinavia and Germany.

 

[Tigger45]

Our senior pastor didn't acquire his MDiv from a Lutheran seminary at all. In fact it was at a general Christian seminary although he did go back and get a Phd in theology but that was from a Catholic college. Typically his preaching style is more like non-denom or Baptist other than the sacraments of course. Although when he preached on the sermon on the mount he did an excellent job of parching out the law and Gospel.

 

[FireDragon76]

Thank you for the reply. I suspect that the Congregation is more Conservative than the Denomination. I also see current pastor as a big promoter of all things ELCA. An earlier pastor, I think, is much more aligned to the Congregation.

That's actually normal in the ELCA. The official denominations statements are potentially liberal mainline sounding, with the occasional bit of Lutheran jargon thrown in, but there are still a fair number of conservatives and moderates who are more distinctively Lutheran.

It's important to keep in mind the statements of the General Synod are on a different level of pastoral application than what occurs locally. Our ecclessiology is really driven more by the local church.

Our senior pastor didn't acquire his MDiv from a Lutheran seminary at all. In fact it was at a general Christian seminary although he did go back and get a Phd in theology but that was from a Catholic college. Typically his preaching style is more like non-denom or Baptist other than the sacraments of course. Although when he preached on the sermon on the mount he did an excellent job of parching out the law and Gospel.

My own pastor is from an LCMS background and is shaped heavily by the Lutheran confessions, so he has more of that approach, but he is generous in his orthodoxy. His own particular style of being Lutheran is colored by Eastern Orthodoxy, because he is part Greek-American and he tends to emphasize the mystical aspects of religion.

Our vicar was more pietistic in tone and not that different from some Methodists or even charismatics, but he emphasized the Law in a more Lutheran manner. I think he would fit on the conservative end of our church as well. His degree was from a large Lutheran seminary in Minnesota.

 

[Tigger45]

My own pastor is from an LCMS background and is shaped heavily by the Lutheran confessions, so he has more of that approach, but he is generous in his orthodoxy. His own particular style of being Lutheran is colored by Eastern Orthodoxy, because he is part Greek-American and he tends to emphasize the mystical aspects of religion.

Awesome! Sounds like your pastor approaches Christianity much the same way I do. I would love to hear or read some of his sermons.

 

[FireDragon76]

Awesome! Sounds like your pastor approaches Christianity much the same way I do. I would love to hear or read some of his sermons.

That may be possible in the future as we are getting that sort of thing set up electronically, to be able to do that.

Mostly we are just a small, traditional-worship church in south downtown Orlando:
http://www.reformationlutheranorlando.org/visitors

 

[FireDragon76]

According to my pastor, theological liberalism is not rare in the ELCA. That's one of the things we discussed today over coffee. Especially as I was concerned about changes in the congregations constitution.

I think the reason the ELCA has been slowly bleeding members is because the liberal mainline ethos was part of the ELCA from the very beginning. My own personal concern, much as that I consider worship a secondary matter, will there will come a point where our worship and liturgy is so watered down that it will be painful to stay. But as I am a social liberal that prefers substantive religion, there aren't alot of choices out there. Perhaps Episcopalians, at most (local Episcopalians tend to be more like "wet-baby Baptists" with better liturgy, though)

One of the problems is that conservatives don't stay in churches and fight, they tend to leave and scatter for fairer pastures. And this is true across religion in America. My pastor in particular was upset that some of our most orthodox theologians left over an issue he saw as non-theological (ethics traditionally is separate from theology for Lutherans).

We are not an exactly "gay affirming" congregation, but everyone is welcome at our church. We are somewhat divided on the issue of homosexuality in our congregation but at least people are nice about their disagreements and recognize we are all sinners.

This is probably the one positive of being Lutheran vs. other kinds of evangelicalism. I've been to Episcopalian churches where that sort of stuff results in alot more passionate and open division. Lutherans seem to have a sense of muddling through life and religion. Perhaps due to the "saints and sinners" ethos, we seem to recognize the incompleteness of all human attempts to mirror righteousness here on earth.

 

[TheScott]

On the whole, LCMC tends to be a centrist Lutheran group, being in-between the more liberal ELCA and the more conservative LCMS. Note that LCMS and LCMC are different church bodies not in fellowship with each other, even though they are often mistaken for each other due to their simiar names. LCMC is incredibly congregationalist, which is both a blessing and a curse at times. This is one area where it differs from other Lutheran denominations. In worship style, they tend to be more low church and a Lutheran style of Evangelicalism, although this not required. Some churches do high church worship. Personally I don't like the Evangelical style at all since I consider it to be against the Confessions.

LCMC does allow for women to be pastors, which is one area it differs from LCMS. However, it does expect that all member congregations teach that sex is sinful outside of traditional 1 man 1 woman marriage.

 

[FireDragon76]

On the whole, LCMC tends to be a centrist Lutheran group, being in-between the more liberal ELCA and the more conservative LCMS. Note that LCMS and LCMC are different church bodies not in fellowship with each other, even though they are often mistaken for each other due to their simiar names. LCMC is incredibly congregationalist, which is both a blessing and a curse at times. This is one area where it differs from other Lutheran denominations. In worship style, they tend to be more low church and a Lutheran style of Evangelicalism, although this not required. Some churches do high church worship. Personally I don't like the Evangelical style at all since I consider it to be against the Confessions.

LCMC does allow for women to be pastors, which is one area it differs from LCMS. However, it does expect that all member congregations teach that sex is sinful outside of traditional 1 man 1 woman marriage.

My pastor doesn't think of the break-away groups like the LCMC as being particularly "centrist" in their orientation. It's not surprising at all their worship would tend towards low evangelicalism, since their theology tends in that direction as well. They were not necessarily about Lutheran distinctives like justification by faith alone so much as the same uncritical biblicism and cultural conservativism as other evangelicals. You're as likely to find pietist sentiments among that group as confessionalism.

 

[ronandcarol]

ELCA vs Lutheran Congregations Missions for Christ (LCMC)
We were members of an ELCA Lutheran church also until they approved same sex marriage. We left that church immediately and joined the Lutheran Church, Missouri Synod, where the preacher preaches straight out of the Bible, no matter what the topic. He doesn't skip over the tough verses, he doesn't preach only the 'good feeling' verses, he preaches what is written. We were very disappointed with the fact that the ELCA had removed that 'one topic' category from their Bible. We didn't know what compromise would be next, so we found a Lutheran church that still preaches every part of God's word.
ronandcarol

 

[tampasteve]

ELCA vs Lutheran Congregations Missions for Christ (LCMC)
We were members of an ELCA Lutheran church also until they approved same sex marriage. We left that church immediately and joined the Lutheran Church, Missouri Synod, where the preacher preaches straight out of the Bible, no matter what the topic. He doesn't skip over the tough verses, he doesn't preach only the 'good feeling' verses, he preaches what is written. We were very disappointed with the fact that the ELCA had removed that 'one topic' category from their Bible. We didn't know what compromise would be next, so we found a Lutheran church that still preaches every part of God's word.
ronandcarol

For clarification, LCMS (Lutheran Church - Missouri Synod) and LCMC (Lutheran Church Missions for Christ) are not the same. But I am happy that you have found a church home that you like.

The average attendance of LCMC churches seems to be rather small, is that by design or happenstance? I know some AFLC churches believe in keeping the church around 30-50 people before splitting. Many ELCA are smaller, but because of shrinkage usually.