Egyptian democracy? 84% want death for aposty.

[mzungu]

Note he said 'the koran does not say' not 'the hadith do not say'. ANd you have qouted hadith, not the koran.

The Qur'an: Qur'an (4:89) - "They but wish that ye should reject Faith, as they do, and thus be on the same footing (as they): But take not friends from their ranks until they flee in the way of Allah (From what is forbidden). But if they turn renegades, seize them and slay them wherever ye find them"
Qur'an (9:11-12) - "But if they repent and establish worship and pay the poor-due, then are they your brethren in religion. We detail Our revelations for a people who have knowledge. And if they break their pledges after their treaty (hath been made with you) and assail your religion, then fight the heads of disbelief - Lo! they have no binding oaths - in order that they may desist." This verse is speaking of infidels (ie. "slay the infidels wherever you find them" 9:5) who obviously became Muslim to escape the sword, but the Hadith make no distinction of how a Muslim came to be a Muslim. Apostasy is always punished by death.
Other verses that seem to support the many Hadith demanding death for apostates are Qur'an verses 2:217, 9:73-74, 88:21, 5:54, and 9:66.

 

[buKareem]

The Qur'an: Qur'an (4:89) - "They but wish that ye should reject Faith, as they do, and thus be on the same footing (as they): But take not friends from their ranks until they flee in the way of Allah (From what is forbidden). But if they turn renegades, seize them and slay them wherever ye find them"

haha, u pick out versus from where you like. Did you just read the verse right next to it?

here it is :
004.090
Except those who reach a people between whom and you there is an alliance, or who come to you, their hearts shrinking from fighting you or fighting their own people; and if Allah had pleased, He would have given them power over you, so that they should have certainly fought you; therefore if they withdraw from you and do not fight you and offer you peace, then Allah has not given you a way against them.


This is just an example and I'm not gonna go over the other verses to avoid repetition. So Quran says "and do not fight you," which means only those who fight you that you are authorized to fight back.

Secondly:
I'm a twelver, which means Albukhari is not authentic to me. For example, Albukhari has a narration that the prophet Muhammed pees in the street !! how do you want us to trust this book !
This book does not tell hadiths (narrations) from the twelve Imams (Ahlulbait, prophet Mohammed's house holds), while the twelve imams are those who represent the true image of Islam. Other than them are people who just make up stuff.


Listent to this:
In our faith (The twelvers) there are only four kinds of people should be prisoned.
one of them is a muslim woman who rejects Islam without proof or evidence, the one that can argue and provide reasoning even if it is fals reasoning CAN NOT be prisoned.
Did you see the rule, it is NOT death penalty, her family should keep her in their home in her room till she comes back to Islam or provides argument or reasonings for her decision. It is not even a jail, it is a prison in her house.

 

[tulc]

hmmm I wonder how accurate of National opinions people would get if they asked (as they did in these polls) around a 1,000 people here in the US?
tulc(suspects to get an accurate picture the sample would have to be somewhat...larger)

 

[Andrew Ryan]

I'm a twelver, which means Albukhari is not authentic to me. For example, Albukhari has a narration that the prophet Muhammed pees in the street !! how do you want us to trust this book !

I want to know what hadith is this.

I mean, I know there is a lot of fighting between Sunni and Shi'a but that's a little out there.

 

[Nathan Poe]

please quote the part where i say aposty is believing in another religion. i know perfectly well what aposty is, and 84 % want the death penaly for aposty. i think around 72% want strict sharia law. genital mutilation stands to make a strong comeback.

Let's assume for a moment that these statistics are true. If the majority of people want it, why shouldn't they have it? What's it to us?

 

[buKareem]

I want to know what hadith is this.

I mean, I know there is a lot of fighting between Sunni and Shi'a but that's a little out there.

I just looked for that and found that it is in Wodu'a (washing the organs in a certain way before prayers) chapter, hadith # 224
( Huthaifa said that the prophet Mohammed came to a people's garbage place and peed while he was standing, then he asked me for water and I brought him water so he did wodu'a)

that was my translation to the hadith. When I said "street", it was based on a debate I saw between a sunni and shie persons, the sunni did not deny the hadith, and I just looked it up and found it. sunna and shia debate about these kind of stuff but don't fight one another

 

[Robbie_James_Francis]

Oh dear, brown people want human rights. They can't be trusted with them!

Grow up. Seriously.

 

[Robbie_James_Francis]

55% of Americans believe in the Rapture. So there are beliefs such as: screw the planet; Christian crusades are good; never mind, it'll all be over soon; support Israel no matter what; actively precipitate war in the Middle East etc.

Many of my fellow Brits are racists, have idiotic ideas about immigration, Europe etc.

Does this mean these people don't deserve democracy?

 

[Schneiderman]

Let's assume for a moment that these statistics are true. If the majority of people want it, why shouldn't they have it? What's it to us?

If the majority of Americans wanted you killed, why shouldn't they have it?

Democracy is a form of tyranny.

 

[Andrew Ryan]

55% of Americans believe in the Rapture.

I highly doubt that 55% of Americans believe in "the rapture." Not even all Christians believe in "the rapture." It's heresy. Might want to question where you get your stats at if you truly believe this. For example, anytime "the rapture," is mentioned around me it involves a joke about it or those whom believe it.

So there are beliefs such as: screw the planet; Christian crusades are good; never mind, it'll all be over soon; support Israel no matter what; actively precipitate war in the Middle East etc.

Translation: blah blah ba blah, silly Christians, we Atheists hold the keys to utopia, don't you know? You're assumptions are flawed and stupid.

Further, I think it's funny and disturbing how every liberal and the majority of those in the media are applauding anything that happens in this series of events because "it's a grassroots democratic movement." Nevermind the talks of ending the Egypt-Israel peace treaty. Nevermind the talks of making apostasy a capital crime. Nevermind what's actually happening, no, no, no, no, it's a grassroots democratic movement, woooooo, let's pop the bubbly.

 

[Robbie_James_Francis]

I highly doubt that 55% of Americans believe in "the rapture." Not even all Christians believe in "the rapture." It's heresy. Might want to question where you get your stats at if you truly believe this. For example, anytime "the rapture," is mentioned around me it involves a joke about it or those whom believe it.

OK, so I googled it.

http://www2.prnewswire.com/cgi-bin/...tory/05-16-2004/0002175080&EDATE=May+16,+2004

Probably wrong. But, let's face it, radical Islam has nothing worse to say than fundamentalist Christianity, and is no more dangerous. And if you'd like to lecture me on Catholic doctrine, then, frankly, as vulgar as it is, bring it on. Former Catholic and theology grad here.

Translation: blah blah ba blah, silly Christians, we Atheists hold the keys to utopia, don't you know? You're assumptions are flawed and stupid.

Cheers!

Further, I think it's funny and disturbing how every liberal and the majority of those in the media are applauding anything that happens in this series of events because "it's a grassroots democratic movement." Nevermind the talks of ending the Egypt-Israel peace treaty. Nevermind the talks of making apostasy a capital crime. Nevermind what's actually happening, no, no, no, no, it's a grassroots democratic movement, woooooo, let's pop the bubbly.

Actually, the UK government does a lot of stuff I hate, and the US government does a lot of stuff I hate (and I'm a citizen of both countries). But they're vaguely democratic, and the Egyptian people have the right to at least the same.

As for the peace agreement with Israel, it has been the Egyptian governmant's way of jusifying Israel's genocide against the Palestinians. I hope the peace agreement is reevaluated to recognise that it Israel has a responsibility to the Palestinians.

 

[Protocol11]

Let's be honest, it's a buncha mid east muslims in a country with a long radical streak. Let's not go expecting much in the way of modern sanity from these people.

 

[badtim]

Let's be honest, it's a buncha mid east muslims in a country with a long radical streak. Let's not go expecting much in the way of modern sanity from these people.

yep, those brown people, terrible.

 

[Protocol11]

yep, those brown people, terrible.

Well, it's nice to see your so honest with your racist feelings.

If you care to try to rebuke my conjecture, you'll quickly find my objections extend far beyond race, and skin color.

 

[mzungu]

Well, it's nice to see your so honest with your racist feelings.

If you care to try to rebuke my conjecture, you'll quickly find my objections extend far beyond race, and skin color.

The only racial remark here was done by you:

Let's be honest, it's a buncha mid east muslims in a country with a long radical streak. Let's not go expecting much in the way of modern sanity from these people.

Care to rebuke?

 

[badtim]

Well, it's nice to see your so honest with your racist feelings.

If you care to try to rebuke my conjecture, you'll quickly find my objections extend far beyond race, and skin color.

hold on, since when is

Let's be honest, it's a buncha mid east muslims in a country with a long radical streak. Let's not go expecting much in the way of modern sanity from these people.

any sort of conjecture besides "those dirty brown people are all a bunch of terrorists"?

 

[Protocol11]

The only racial remark here was done by you:

I'm sorry, I wasn't aware of a race known as "mid east muslims".

However, that you summarize that as "those brown people", is a racist remark, and the only one in this thread. Perhaps you should look in the mirror and confront your own racist issues before projecting them onto other people.

any sort of conjecture besides "those dirty brown people are all a bunch of terrorists"?

If that's what you choose to read into it, fine. I think it says far more about you than it does me.

I find it especially entertaining you two would rather smear and slander me and mischaractorize my statements instead of bothering to refute them.

 

[mzungu]

I find it especially entertaining you two would rather smear and slander me and mischaractorize my statements instead of bothering to refute them.

What is there to refute? You are obviously ignorant of matters concerning the Middle East and Islam. You made a racially biased comment (no need to hide behind your finger on this one) that betrays not only your hatred for a people you know nothing about but insist on crying wolf because you feel you have been slandered.

There is nothing more to be said on this subject!

 

[badtim]

ok critique:

Let's be honest, it's a buncha mid east muslims in a country with a long radical streak. Let's not go expecting much in the way of modern sanity from these people.

Define "radical", first off, what you personally mean by it, and then in the context of middle-east social constructs, and show exactly how Egypt is "radical" in those terms -- BOTH of those terms.

Then define what you mean by "modern sanity". then we can start talking in more than snarl words. Without those key elements of context your statement is informationally equivalent to "they're different and i don't like them".