Dr. Ruth: Women can't say no to sex once naked in bed

[Cearbhall]

As I've previously stated in my earlier post, the urge to reproduce is incredibly strong and getting all the way to "that point" and then being forced to reverse course is something not everyone will be capable of doing.

I find this hard to believe. Are you telling me that if things are getting a bit crazy and I break my hand on the headboard or get whiplash, I shouldn't expect my partner to be able to stop? I should just lie there in pain and wait to start medical treatment until he finishes?

 

[Dave-W]

.

And what would you do if you were brought right to the very edge of your happy ending; and you need that release almost more than your next breath of air, and your partner suddelly says "STOP?".

I have actually done this. In all fun and games. And before you think of me as some heartless whatever monster, it was not malicious. We were having a great time. The point is that I DID tell him to stop just before he was 'there' and he did. Game or not, ready or not, he stopped.

In these very rare events where it gets to that point when she says stop, the sex-crazed, uncontrollable, hormone raging man CAN pull out and "finish" elsewhere (on her, on the bed, on the floor...) even in the next breath. So stop acting like just because you're already in there you have no choice but to finish in there.

No - I am not talking about fun and games. I am talking about when you say "stop" you mean "STOP," and there is no "finishing" or there will be hell to pay.

I am just saying that when you are at that edge, stopping is very difficult.

 

[Dave-W]

I would suggest that several of you who think that stopping right at the edge is no big deal do a google search and read up (educate yourself) on the "point of ejaculatory inevitibility." If you can find it, read Dr Mengela's work on it in WW2. (that is not for the faint of heart - it was part of the holocaust) What he found was that you can take a guy to that point, kill him; and he will still "finish."

 

[Cearbhall]

No - I am not talking about fun and games. I am talking about when you say "stop" you mean "STOP," and there is no "finishing" or there will be hell to pay.

I am just saying that when you are at that edge, stopping is very difficult.

I don't think anyone is denying that it would be difficult or unpleasant. That doesn't mean you have the right to keep going.

Now, I personally can't think of a reason why I would tell someone to stop after penetration, short of pain, injury, or a torn condom. But at no point do you have a right to use my body sexually.

The reason why Dr. Ruth Westheimer is so clearly wrong is because she's talking about withdrawing consent before penetration. She thinks that ship has sailed once clothes come off. Maybe she's never heard of [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse].

 

[grasping the after wind]

It's important to remember two factors here. Firstly, the rate of false rape accusation is exceedingly small. 2%-8%. Secondly, the number of rapists who actually get prosecuted is also exceedingly small - 3%.

Let me say that although I do not trust the statistics you have quoted it is not because I think you are dishonest I just think that those kind of statistics (i.e. statistics that are acquired on things where one must rely upon the reporting of people that are not likely to want to be completely honest with the researchers) are often published by people that do not maintain a highest standards of excellence in their research techniques or are quoted by people that did not examine how the statistics were compiled and did not pay attention to how the researchers explained the usefulness of their findings. These sttype of stats get quoted and requoted as if they are hard data rather than projections based upon assumptions that may or may not be valid ones.

That being said, whether they are accurate or not I do not see why they are important facts to remember in context of whether or not any individual person has been raped or has consented to sexual intercourse. There does indeed come a time when rape cannot be said to have occurred. If one partner has left the building after sexual intercourse it is a bit late to say no and call it rape. If one partner says no after the other partner has already climaxed, I think it is a bit too late to claim rape as the intercourse for that partner has ended so it can no longer be stopped anymore than a car at rest can be sent back in time to stop at a point earlier than where it stopped. How long in advance of that climax is it reasonable for the one to say to the other "no" is what is a valid issue in regard to this subject but not the percentage of people that are being prosecuted for rape or the percentage of people that falsely accuse others of raping them. IMO the word "stop"( which means no and makes it clear what is required) is enough at any point up to the point of climax. Any bad intentions or games of power that might be being attempted by the one saying "stop" are irrelevant.

 

[The Cadet]

And what would you do if you were brought right to the very edge of your happy ending; and you need that release almost more than your next breath of air, and your partner suddelly says "STOP?"

Dude, that's my fetish.

Well, not really, but it is someone's. Ruined [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse]. Not only are you brought to the edge and then asked to stop, you are brought to the point of no return, then left completely unstimulated, leading to a fairly painful and unsatisfying experience.

But here's the interesting thing, and the reason I brought this up. In many cases, the men in those videos are not restrained. They're not tied up, they're not "forced" to stop. They could apply their own hands at any point and stop themselves from getting "ruined". But they don't. And let me tell you, as someone who has experienced this personally while tied up, there is no amount of blueballing that compares to the urge to not have your [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] ruined. These guys? They refrain not because not doing so would violate their partner's rights, but because their partner enjoys it.

Here's hoping that's not too graphic for the censors; that's really about as clinically as I could have possibly described it.

Actually it is scriptural.

Proverbs 5:19 a lovely deer, a graceful doe. Let her breasts fill you at all times with delight; be intoxicated always in her love.

"Intoxicated" here is שָׁגָה shagah and it means to "to err, stray; to swerve, meander, reel, roll, be intoxicated, err (in drunkenness); to go astray (morally); to commit sin of ignorance or inadvertence, err (ignorantly)." IOW, to totally lose control.

...And yet, somehow, most men have the strength of character not to continue. Look, I'm sorry, appealing to the scripture to defend something that is horribly wrong and that most people have no trouble not doing is not convincing. In fact, the more I love my partner, the more I care about how she is doing, and the more willing I am to stop. Even in the throes of passion, I have no problem stopping at any point - even past the point of no return for myself, regardless of how much it hurts. (and believe me, it can hurt!)

Maybe some people have issues with impulse control. No problem. That does not excuse their behavior, it does not make it not rape, and it simply means that they need therapy and help, and to stay out of dangerous situations!

I would suggest that several of you who think that stopping right at the edge is no big deal do a google search and read up (educate yourself) on the "point of ejaculatory inevitibility." If you can find it, read Dr Mengela's work on it in WW2. (that is not for the faint of heart - it was part of the holocaust) What he found was that you can take a guy to that point, kill him; and he will still "finish."

But that's not what that's about. The point of ejaculatory inevitability is about the body's physical response. Once you hit that point, it's coming out one way or another (this is the principle behind a ruined [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse]). However. This doesn't mean you are physically forced to continue stimulating yourself, let alone stay inside your partner. And this only applies to the very end of intercourse as well, which is a considerably tighter window than previously discussed. And once again, the existence of the ruined [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] fetish shows that, quite simply, this strong urge does not translate into a complete abandonment of reason.

Look, I'm sorry, you can try to justify it all you want, the fact is, it's wrong. It's unacceptable. It's rape.

 

[Cearbhall]

I would suggest that several of you who think that stopping right at the edge is no big deal do a google search and read up (educate yourself) on the "point of ejaculatory inevitibility." If you can find it, read Dr Mengela's work on it in WW2. (that is not for the faint of heart - it was part of the holocaust) What he found was that you can take a guy to that point, kill him; and he will still "finish."

What does that have to do with whether or not he's mentally capable of pulling out? I'm not really concerned about whether he gets the sheets dirty because of ejaculatory inevitability.

 

[grasping the after wind]

="The Cadet, post: 68083055, member: 261708"]Dude, that's my fetish.


Here's hoping that's not too graphic for the censors; that's really about as clinically as I could have possibly described it.



.

And here I was concerned that someone might be offended because I mentioned climax.

 

[Cearbhall]

Dude, that's my fetish.

Well, not really, but it is someone's. Ruined [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse].

Indeed. [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] denial is a fairly common fetish, actually. It doesn't harm the person.

 

[The Cadet]

And here I was concerned that someone might be offended because I mentioned climax.

Fundamentally, it's a conversation about sex. Either you can talk about sex and sexuality, or you can't. I tried to keep it as clinical as I could, while still making the point clear. And this is an important point, because it really reveals what's, you know, actually going on. People can stop not only before coitus has started, not only during coitus, but right at the point of no return. There is no point at which a man becomes physically unable to stop, and those who claim that they are suffer from very poor impulse control and need help before they end up raping someone.

 

[Dave-W]

What does that have to do with whether or not he's mentally capable of pulling out? I'm not really concerned about whether he gets the sheets dirty because of ejaculatory inevitability.

Indeed. [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] denial is a fairly common fetish, actually. It doesn't harm the person.

This is the "fun and games" mentioned earlier. That is NOT what I am talking about.

I am talking about you get right to the edge and the person becomes hostile at the idea of you finishing EVER. No "ruined" or self-finishing. Or even if you quit before that point. They get their happy ending and roll over and go to sleep but you had better not finish off yourself or there will be hell to play - even physical violence.

 

[The Cadet]

This is the "fun and games" mentioned earlier. That is NOT what I am talking about.

I am talking about you get right to the edge and the person becomes hostile at the idea of you finishing EVER. No "ruined" or self-finishing. Or even if you quit before that point. They get their happy ending and roll over and go to sleep but you had better not finish off yourself or there will be hell to play - even physical violence.

But that's a completely different issue. If you pull out and finish yourself off, I'm not sure how that could be construed as rape. Hell, I'm not sure how that could be considered problematic. The scenario you're describing in this post sounds more like an abusive relationship than anything else. But what we're talking about is a man being unable to control themselves pre- or mid-coitus and starting/continuing without consent. That's a very different story altogether.

 

[riona]

No - I am not talking about fun and games. I am talking about when you say "stop" you mean "STOP," and there is no "finishing" or there will be hell to pay.

I am just saying that when you are at that edge, stopping is very difficult.

Firstly, when I say stop, I MEAN stop. At what point does "Stop penetrating me" mean "you're not allowed to finish"? It just means "you're not allowed to finish INSIDE ME." Just as I stated before- stop acting like just because you start inside a woman means you MUST finish inside her.
In fact, I believe once I said "stop" because I just didn't WANT him to [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] inside me. I was afraid of potentially getting pregnant as I didn't bother to stop and look at my calendar before we got started. And he withdrew without issue and had his [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] anyway.

Secondly, difficult is not equal to impossible.

The Cadet said it best...

"Look, I'm sorry, you can try to justify it all you want, the fact is, it's wrong. It's unacceptable. It's rape."

There's really no other way to put it I think.

 

[riona]

This is the "fun and games" mentioned earlier. That is NOT what I am talking about.

I am talking about you get right to the edge and the person becomes hostile at the idea of you finishing EVER. No "ruined" or self-finishing. Or even if you quit before that point. They get their happy ending and roll over and go to sleep but you had better not finish off yourself or there will be hell to play - even physical violence.

Once again, I agree with The Cadet. What you're talking about it completely off topic.... and kinda creepy. People in that kind of relationship, if you can call it that, have their own issues.

The issue at hand is about the right to say "stop having sex with me" at any point- not having full control over another person's [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse]. Obviously it is morally wrong to force another person to never [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse], much like in the same way it is morally wrong to force another person to give you one.

 

[Dave-W]

Then apparently I have no experience with what you all are talking about.

 

[The Cadet]

Then apparently I have no experience with what you all are talking about.

....Yeaaaah. If your wife is like that, I kinda worry. That sounds like an abusive, toxic relationship. :/

 

[Dave-W]

If your wife is like that, I kinda worry. That sounds like an abusive, toxic relationship.

She WAS [past tense] like that. It took a couple of decades but then things started turning around.

 

[riona]

She WAS [past tense] like that. It took a couple of decades but then things started turning around.

*blink blink*
I just... wow... I hope you got some therapy... and her too... cause.. wow.
I guess, um.. good (?) for you for staying in an abusive marriage?
You know, from what I understand God approves divorce based on abuse. Just sayin..

 

[The Cadet]

She WAS [past tense] like that. It took a couple of decades but then things started turning around.

Well, glad to hear things got better at least.

 

[Dave-W]

I just... wow... I hope you got some therapy... and her too... cause.. wow.
I guess, um.. good (?) for you for staying in an abusive marriage?

She got some counseling about 15 years ago. There were severe abuse issues from her grade school days.

You know, from what I understand God approves divorce based on abuse.

Not so. The only biblical grounds for divorce are A) sexual immorality and B) abandonment.