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Do you agree with the traditional doctrine of original sin?

fhansen

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Original Sin

Do you agree with the traditional doctrine of original sin?

I mean, specifically, do you agree that:

1. God holds all people guilty for Adam’s sin AND

2. We inherit a sin nature from Adam

How could it be fair that Adam’s sin has such a big negative impact on us all? Was it right for God to make it like this?

I share a few thoughts in this video. I include an analogy based on something I saw while living in Indonesia that might help us understand this issue. Whether or not you watch the video, I would like to hear your thoughts.



We don't inherit a "sin nature"; we inherit the direct consquences of Adam's disobedience: alienation from God, our Creator, whom we're meant to know but whom we're cut off from at birth. Apart from Him we can do nothing, and we know nothing of what we really need to know such as where we came from, why we're here, and where we're going. We're lost, sick, dead, existing in a state of injustice or disorder to the extent that we're not in communion with and subjugated to God. And sin is inevitable
 
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IoanC

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Sin and death entered the world through Adam and Eve, when they disobeyed God's direct commandment to not eat from The Tree Of Good And Evil.
We are not guilty of their own sin, but we inherit the possibility to sin in general and we are subject to death.
 
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Teofrastus

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We don't inherit a "sin nature"; we inherit the direct consquences of Adam's disobedience: alienation from God, our Creator, whom we're meant to know but whom we're cut off from at birth. Apart from Him we can do nothing, and we know nothing of what we really need to know such as where we came from, why we're here, and where we're going. We're lost, sick, dead, existing in a state of injustice or disorder to the extent that we're not in communion with and subjugated to God. And sin is inevitable
We inherit a sinful nature, participating in Adam's original transgression. However, through faith, believers also participate in Christ's righteousness. This creates a paradoxical state where Christians are simultaneously completely sinful in their inherited nature and completely righteous through Christ's imputed righteousness.

This doctrine, sometimes called "simul justus et peccator" (simultaneously justified and sinner), was particularly emphasized by Martin Luther and remains central to many Protestant traditions.
 
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fhansen

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We inherit a sinful nature, participating in Adam's original transgression. However, through faith, believers also participate in Christ's righteousness. This creates a paradoxical state where Christians are simultaneously completely sinful in their inherited nature and completely righteous through Christ's imputed righteousness.

This doctrine, sometimes called "simul justus et peccator" (simultaneously justified and sinner), was particularly emphasized by Martin Luther and remains central to many Protestant traditions.
Yes, we aren't going to agree on this one I'm sure :) .

The Catholic church for its part, and, I believe, the EO as well as the ECFs as far as I can tell, strictly reject the concept of simul justus et peccator, with a declared or imputed righteousness only being sufficient in God eyes. As to the “sinful nature”, it’s not as if anything was added to man at the fall, as in a new nature, but, in fact, was subtracted from him. By aspiring to be greater than who he was, equal to God in moral authority for all practical purposes, he actually fell to something less and that “something” included the very lack of the God he’d rejected by his act of disobedience, with a corresponding loss of the grace intrinsic to that relationship.

This loss is profound, anomalous, destructive; creation is now out of sync or accord with its Creator. And this is why man’s justice or righteousness consists first of all in reconciliation and reunion with God. The branch was never meant to be broken off from the Vine on which its true life depends- and authentic righteousness can begin to flow once the grafting takes place. Man was not created to sin.
 
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Teofrastus

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Yes, we aren't going to agree on this one I'm sure :) .

The Catholic church for its part, and, I believe, the EO as well as the ECFs as far as I can tell, strictly reject the concept of simul justus et peccator, with a declared or imputed righteousness only being sufficient in God eyes. As to the “sinful nature”, it’s not as if anything was added to man at the fall, as in a new nature, but, in fact, was subtracted from him. By aspiring to be greater than who he was, equal to God in moral authority for all practical purposes, he actually fell to something less and that “something” was the very lack of the God he’d rejected by his act of disobedience, with a corresponding loss of the grace intrinsic to that relationship.

This loss is profound, anomalous, destructive; creation is now out of sync or accord with its Creator. And this is why man’s justice or righteousness consists first of all in reconciliation and reunion with God. The branch was never meant to be broken off from the Vine on which its true life depends- and authentic righteousness can begin to flow once the grafting takes place. Man was not created to sin.
Indeed, the doctrine of sin nature suggests that humanity's original wholeness has been fundamentally corrupted. While Catholics maintain that baptism completely removes original sin, the Lutheran position—that Christians remain thoroughly sinful while being covered by Christ's righteousness—appears more consistent with observable human behaviour. Even the most devout individuals continue to struggle with sin, suggesting our corruption runs deeper than what the Catholic doctrine of complete removal of original sin through baptism would indicate.

So, how do we reconcile the Catholic teaching about baptism's complete removal of original sin with the persistent reality of human moral failure?
 
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fhansen

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Indeed, the doctrine of sin nature suggests that humanity's original wholeness has been fundamentally corrupted. While Catholics maintain that baptism completely removes original sin, the Lutheran position—that Christians remain thoroughly sinful while being covered by Christ's righteousness—appears more consistent with observable human behaviour. Even the most devout individuals continue to struggle with sin, suggesting our corruption runs deeper than what the Catholic doctrine of complete removal of original sin through baptism would indicate.

So, how do we reconcile the Catholic teaching about baptism's complete removal of original sin with the persistent reality of human moral failure?
That’s a good question. Unlike Calvinism and, perhaps, to a lesser extent, unlike Lutheranism, in Catholicism the will of man holds a place in his salvation, beginning in Eden when man freely de-saved himself, so to speak. God could’ve overridden Adam's will-or gave him less freedom to begin with- and He can completely override our wills now, making us into some kind of do-good automatons if we are to begin behaving totally better as a result of our encounter with Christ, or He can decide to simply ignore our sins altogether, “pretending” that they don’t exist when, in fact, they do- as if the gospel were little more than a reprieve from man’s obligation to be righteous as long as he believes. But none of that has ever been the idea.

The goal, the very reason we’re here now, is to come back to the God we spurned in Eden, to the extent that we can return to that vital state of justice with the essential help of grace. Humanity now knows both good and evil, literally, viscerally, directly by experience in this world, and the choice between the two should be all the more obviously necessary, especially once the Ultimate Good contacts, calls, informs and moves us by His grace. Baptism, known as the “sacrament of faith”, is a “formal” act of faith in response to Jesus’ model and command. It’s acknowledged that without faith the sacrament would be worthless. Faith/baptism are the regrafting of the branch into the Vine. But that doesn’t mean that, unlike Adam before the Fall, I’ve now become perfect in my wisdom and will, perfected in love to place it in another perspective. So while I know somewhat better now, or should, concupiscence still draws and tests us; we won’t necessarily deny ourselves totally; pride/ego still exist together with their compadre: fear of other’s opinions, and can keep us attracted to the family tradition of distance from God while unduly attracted to other, lesser, created things instead, or return us to those attractions.

It’s a struggle, a battle, but a supremely good one that has the final purpose of creating something even greater than God began with when He first created man, and that can only be won by virtue of our union with Him as we join and remain in Him now, ‘apart from whom we can do nothing’, in a continuous walk with God the Holy Spirit. It’s a process, a journey home, where we make our calling and election sure, working out our salvation with He who works in us. In that, as we “invest” our gifts as per the Parable of the Talents/Bags of Gold, our justice/righteousness and conviction and willingness all grow, and we become nearer to God in likeness and in our love. This journey for man actually begins in Eden.

In my own life, this testing, this challenge, this struggle has been-surprisingly to me- dramatic at times, with the prospect of ergegiously failing well understood. God has a purpose in all this, a trial by fire in a way, and a molding, and that purpose is more than just stocking a number of His otherwise worthless, sinful creation in heaven and filling hell with the rest, but in creating, growing, cultivating, something grand, of much higher value than He began with as we’re increasingly drawn to willingly partake of and participate in His goodness and love, in Him.
 
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Teofrastus

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What you say is similar to the Lutheran view. Luther said that baptism should be practiced through daily contrition and repentance—it's an ongoing reality, not a one-time transformation of nature. He uses the analogy of a sick person who has begun treatment and who is genuinely being healed (justified) but still sick (sinful) until the treatment is complete (glorification).

The Lutheran position emphasizes that we remain constantly dependent on Christ's righteousness precisely because our sinful nature persists. This maintains a clearer focus on Christ's ongoing role as Saviour rather than seeing salvation as a completed transformation at baptism.

If baptism completely removes our sinful nature, as Catholics teach, it could seem to minimize our ongoing need for Christ's atoning work.
 
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fhansen

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If baptism completely removes our sinful nature, as Catholics teach, it could seem to minimize our ongoing need for Christ's atoning work.
And yet its only "operative" as we remain in that grace, in Him. We can turn and walk away from it as well and every time we sin we're showing that, even in some little way, we're not yet perfected in love, or being completely faithful. So the atoning work, renewed to us in it's necessity and "appropriated" again each time we turn back to Him, repenting and confessing with a sincere heart, is essential in Catholicism as the failure to change one's heart in that way, to "put to death the deeds of the flesh" by walking in the Spirit, and persistently remaining in grave sin instead, can result in death all over again. Grave, mortal sin, therefore, sin that leads to death, much of which is outlined in the bible, constitutes a radical turning away from God as it opposes and destroys love of Him and neighbor by its nature.

Because love of God and neighbor is our purpose and our salvation, inseparable from salvation as it's the true mark of His children.
 
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fhansen

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The Lutheran position emphasizes that we remain constantly dependent on Christ's righteousness precisely because our sinful nature persists. This maintains a clearer focus on Christ's ongoing role as Saviour rather than seeing salvation as a completed transformation at baptism.
And yet doesn't Lutheranism actually see salvation as a completed transformation simply as we come to believe, at least a done deal?? Or what does remaining constantly dependent upon Christ even mean if it isn't accompanied by action/good fruit/overcoming sin? Could such a dependent dispostion save anyone without that fruit?

Anyway, it seems to me that Lutheranism has a not quite so comfortable relationship with the concept that all of our sins, past, present, and future are no longer accounted to us once we’ve believed- or as long as we believe? Uneasy because we know intuitively that there must be some gravity or quantity of sin that should either exclude us from:
1) being a “true believer”
or,
2) remove us from that status or from fellowship with God in any case
 
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Teofrastus

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And yet doesn't Lutheranism actually see salvation as a completed transformation simply as we come to believe, at least a done deal?? Or what does remaining constantly dependent upon Christ even mean if it isn't accompanied by action/good fruit/overcoming sin? Could such a dependent dispostion save anyone without that fruit?

Anyway, It seems to me that Lutheranism has a not quite so comfortable relationship with the concept that all of our sins, past, present, and future are no longer accounted to us once we’ve believed- or as long as we believe? Uneasy because we know intuitively that there must be some gravity or quantity of sin that should either exclude us from:
1) being a “true believer”
or,
2) remove us from that status or from fellowship with God in any case
Yes, Lutherans maintain a complex relationship with the concept that our sins are no longer accounted to us. In his Disputatio de homine, Luther argues that what defines humanity is our awareness of being fallen beings in a fallen world. This consciousness of sin fundamentally shapes human nature. We yearn for liberation from the Fall's consequences while remaining unable to reconcile ourselves with our sinful condition. This tension defines authentic humanity: we must exist in relationship to God and, through this divine connection, to the world.

Our recognition of ourselves as sinners is part of authentic human existence in this age. Yet simultaneously, we are justified through Christ (simul justus et peccator—simultaneously righteous and sinner).
 
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BelieveItOarKnot

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the Catholic doctrine of complete removal of original sin through baptism would indicate.
Was not aware of that ^

Thank you

I am not aware that any subsequent actions of {Roman} Catholics, confession, contrition, repentance, penance, communion makes them officially sinless again, or that they teach such a thing, but their positions can be somewhat problematic to unwind on this particular matter. I believe their best offer is reasonable assurance, but no guarantees
 
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Teofrastus

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Was not aware of that ^

Thank you

I am not aware that any subsequent actions of {Roman} Catholics, confession, contrition, repentance, penance, communion makes them officially sinless again, or that they teach such a thing, but their positions can be somewhat problematic to unwind on this particular matter. I believe their best offer is reasonable assurance, but no guarantees
The Catechism of the Catholic Church (1263) states that baptism "erases" original sin. This means that sin is truly removed, not just covered up or forgiven while remaining present. The person is restored to original holiness, i.e., the soul is completely cleansed, returning to a state similar to Adam and Eve's before the Fall.

However, the effects or consequences of original sin (death, suffering, inclination to sin) remain and the person still needs to struggle against these weaknesses. To logical reasoning, this appears self-contradictory.
 
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FireDragon76

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And yet doesn't Lutheranism actually see salvation as a completed transformation simply as we come to believe, at least a done deal?? Or what does remaining constantly dependent upon Christ even mean if it isn't accompanied by action/good fruit/overcoming sin? Could such a dependent dispostion save anyone without that fruit?

Anyway, it seems to me that Lutheranism has a not quite so comfortable relationship with the concept that all of our sins, past, present, and future are no longer accounted to us once we’ve believed- or as long as we believe? Uneasy because we know intuitively that there must be some gravity or quantity of sin that should either exclude us from:

1) being a “true believer”
or,
2) remove us from that status or from fellowship with God in any case

Lutheranism doesn't teach presumption of grace in that manner you suggest, even if the moral theology doesn't look like Roman Catholicism.

There are ways of living in the world that are difficult to justify as a Christian, despite the generous liberty inherent in the Gospel. However, Lutheranism doesn't pretend to define those boundaries in the starkly rigid and legalistic manner as Roman Catholicism. Instead, the Law condemns us in our sins and points us to the promise of the grace of God in Christ as our only consolation, not in our own good works or obedience.
 
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2PhiloVoid

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Original Sin

Do you agree with the traditional doctrine of original sin?

I mean, specifically, do you agree that:

1. God holds all people guilty for Adam’s sin AND

2. We inherit a sin nature from Adam

How could it be fair that Adam’s sin has such a big negative impact on us all? Was it right for God to make it like this?

I share a few thoughts in this video. I include an analogy based on something I saw while living in Indonesia that might help us understand this issue. Whether or not you watch the video, I would like to hear your thoughts.




No, I don't think the concept of "original sin" as presented by someone like St. Augustine is either real or even a good interpretation of the Biblical message. It's enough to understand the essential, basic Jewish idea that the world is separated from the Tree of Life and that life more or less will suck for each and every one of us until the day we die.

End of story.
 
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fhansen

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Lutheranism doesn't teach presumption of grace in that manner you suggest, even if the moral theology doesn't look like Roman Catholicism.

There are ways of living in the world that are difficult to justify as a Christian, despite the generous liberty inherent in the Gospel. However, Lutheranism doesn't pretend to define those boundaries in the starkly rigid and legalistic manner as Roman Catholicism. Instead, the Law condemns us in our sins and points us to the promise of the grace of God in Christ as our only consolation, not in our own good works or obedience.
You know, both Lutheranism and Catholicism claim to understand something of God's revelation-our understanding being the purpose of that revelation, of course. A difference could be summed up in an alternative understanding of your last sentence. The law condemns us in our sins while the promise of grace means the abililty to overcome them, rather than simply remain in them. Augustine:
"The law was given that grace might be sought; and grace was given that the law might be fulfilled." (De Spiritu et Littera)
 
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FireDragon76

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You know, both Lutheranism and Catholicism claim to understand something of God's revelation-our understanding being the purpose of that revelation, of course. A difference could be summed up in an alternative understanding of your last sentence. The law condemns us in our sins while the promise of grace means the abililty to overcome them, rather than simply remain in them...

If that's what you think Lutheranism teaches, you are either misunderstanding or misrepresenting it. Just because we believe that human beings, through their own will, can never merit eternal life doesn't mean we think humans are incapable, with God's grace, of moral improvement. Indeed, grace is the only sure foundation for the possibility of moral improvement in the first place.
 
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fhansen

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However, the effects or consequences of original sin (death, suffering, inclination to sin) remain and the person still needs to struggle against these weaknesses. To logical reasoning, this appears self-contradictory.
The rebrith places us back into the state of Adam- and yet Adam sinned in that state. So we're faced with the same temptations as Adam & Eve faced, driven by the promise of something better for us, more wisdom, more fulfillment, if we deny God's voice, His authority, and become our own "gods" in the process. But we have the benefit now of having lived in a world where the Master's effectively gone away and man's will reigns supreme and sin and it's effects are directly, viscerally, experienced-where both good and evil are literally known IOW-so the choice betwen the two is all the more readily apparent.

So we continue, but now with the presence of grace, God's life in us, to weigh and struggle against those things that promise us all kinds of benefits: power, glory. wealth, possesions, pleasure: worldy, created things that seek to become our gods, making us better and happier. Believers are neither puppets who cannot help but sin nor puppets who can't help but refrain from sin. But as we embrace and express the new life with the gifts given us: the new heart, the new spirit, the virtues of faith, hope, and love, they grow in us, more towards God and away from the alienation from Him that Adam intiated-and which constitutes the basic injustice or disorder of fallen man, a state sometimes referred to as 'original sin". In this way we're tested, cultivated, refined, and work out our salvation together with He who works in us. We're here to learn what Adam didn't get, that, "Apart from Me you can do nothing".
 
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FireDragon76

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The rebrith places us back into the state of Adam- and yet Adam sinned in that state. So we're faced with the same temptations as Adam & Eve faced, driven by the promise of something better for us, more wisdom, more fulfillment, if we deny God's voice, His authority, and become our own "gods" in the process. But we have the benefit now of having lived in a world where the Master's effectively gone away and man's will reigns supreme and sin and it's effects are directly, viscerally, experienced-where both good and evil are literally known IOW-so the choice betwen the two is all the more readily apparent.

So we continue, but now with the presence of grace, God's life in us, to weigh and struggle against those things that promise us all kinds of benefits: power, glory. wealth, possesions, pleasure: worldy, created things that seek to become our gods, making us better and happier. Believers are neither puppets who cannot help but sin nor puppets who can't help but refrain from sin. But as we embrace and express the new life with the gifts given us: the new heart, the new spirit, the virtues of faith, hope, and love, they grow in us, more towards God and away from the alienation from Him that Adam intiated-and which constitutes the basic injustice or disorder of fallen man, a state sometimes referred to as 'original sin". In this way we're tested, cultivated, refined, and work out our salvation together with He who works in us. We're here to learn what Adam didn't get, that, "Apart from Me you can do nothing".

The mistake in Catholic theology is assuming that sin and grace are incompatible, everything else flows from that theological mistake.
 
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