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Do Lutherans believe in being born-again or saved?

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C.F.W. Walther

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wonder what some of the people who belong have listened to all their lives, it certainly doesn't seem to have much of anything to do with the teachings presented in the church.

Marv

AMEN!!

You hear alot of "how I was saved, how many gifts do I have, how much properity do I have, how great a witness I am, how spirit filled I am etc"

They seem to take the non-essential things in the bible like the "promisses" so they can get the benefit from it and try to use God as a cornucopia. They degrade God to a lovey dovey sugar daddy and Jesus as a lover.

They read the OT like it's gospel and rarefied law to be kept and the NT like it's law and look down there collective noses at everyone else if we can't attain their respectability (dobee points) that they posses. Seems a shame that they miss the whole point.
 
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christianmomof3

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Thank you again for your answers.
(I like the name BigNorsk - I guess that would fit my husband also - his family is all from Norway and he is 6'8" tall :) )
Think of all those people you meet who are so worried if their baptism was valid because they maybe didn't really believe good enough right at that moment. Or it wasn't physically done just exactly a certain way and so on. I don't really get their concerns, the thing that's really missing from the Bible is invalid baptisms.
I have heard of that and it is sad, but I have never actually met anyone with that concept - I don't think those concepts are in the church that I meet with.
I think perhaps my understanding of salvation falls somewhere between Lutheranism and "decision theology".
Because I was not raised as a Christian, but rather as a Jew, I do have an "exact moment in time" when "I accepted that Jesus Christ is God" - before that I did not think that Jesus Christ was God. I know that He chose me before the world began and many people prayed for me throughout my life, but before that moment I did not believe that Jesus Christ was God and at that moment, His life was deposited into mine - His Holy Spirit entered into my human spirit and since then, His life has been growing within me. I do not see salvation as a one moment thing - I see that first moment as the first step in a lifelong process of Christ growing in and transforming me into His image.
I don't know - since I used the word "I", does that make my understanding of salvation part of "decision theology"? I do not think that I made my salvation happen - I believe that my faith was a gift from God.

Thank you again for all of your answers - since most of my husband's family is Lutheran, I am interested in finding out what they believe. My husband started meeting with a non-Lutheran church right after he got out of high school, (and that was a long time ago) so his memories of and understanding of what was taught in the Lutheran church is not a complete understanding I guess.


 
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LilLamb219

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so his memories of and understanding of what was taught in the Lutheran church is not a complete understanding I guess.

Time also has a way of corrupting our thoughts when you fill it with worldly ideas as well. I left my congregation for years for various reasons and actually began thinking that Lutherans taught something a little differently after a few years. That was MY error and my straying from the catechsim. Once I came back, I realized how far off I wandered and how wrong I was on some things and what I believed wasn't very Lutheran on some points.
 
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LilLamb219

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I don't know - since I used the word "I", does that make my understanding of salvation part of "decision theology"? I do not think that I made my salvation happen - I believe that my faith was a gift from God.

It could sound like you've made yourself a part of your salvation if you keep using the word "I" as being active in your sentences when referring to salvation. If you have God being the active one and the one with the verbs in the sentence, you create a better sentence that focuses on God and not you.

One thing that profs like to ask is this, Who is running the verbs?

If it's God, then He's the one doing the work, if it's you, then you better rethink how you're wording things.
 
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ricg

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I think Lutherans tend to avoid the term "salvation" because it is imprecise and carries somewhat different meanings in different parts of Scripture, as I think Marv was getting at.

As others have pointed out, Lutherans are also guarded about phrases such as "getting saved" because they imply salvation depends on an act of our own will, which, would essentially mean we save ourselves -- a false idea. Properly understood, however, one can say I was saved on [date].

Let me try to explain. Lutherans distinguish between objective and subjective justification. You asked earlier about whether we believe that all are saved. In a sense, we do. Jesus is the Savior of the whole whole world, including unbelievers. Thus, if an unbeliever were to ask you whether he or she has been (past perfect) "saved," you could and should answer "yes." Why, because to answer otherwise might be construed to mean that Jesus' sacrifice was insufficient to save, which is untrue. Objectively speaking, the salvation of the world occurred on that hill outside Jerusalem 2000 years ago, to the extent that, as Marv said, it can be pinpointed, for it was then that God's promise of salvation (if spoken of as satisfaction of our debt on account of sin) was "finished."

That is not, however, the end of the explanation. As LilLamb points out, that is where salvation in the sense of forgiveness was won. But how do we grasp hold of it, make it our own? How do we connect personally, or subjectively, to God? This is where we come to the passages that speak of being "born again," or "adopted," "brought to repentence," "grafted onto the Vine," "regenerated." Note that the questions I asked are asked in a human way: first person active. The Scriptural answers, however, are passive as to us. You have as little to do with being born again as you did with being born. Before conversion, we are dead in sin, unable to repent or rely on God's promise of salvation from the consequences of sin: death.

The best metaphor, then, is a resurrection. God calls us to be alive, just as he called forth Lazarus or the young man of Nain. His command enlivens us. We are made alive through faith (also a gift) which is the ability to grasp God's promise to save. God converts our spriritual heart from one of stone to one of flesh. This we call subjective justification -- salvation in the sense of relying on the promise of forgiveness and deliverence from the punishment of sin, eternal death. Our response, calling on the Name of the Lord, participating in our Lord's life, love and suffering, necessarily flows from our salvation (if spoken of as subjective justification), is necessary for salvation (if spoken of as a future event), but in no way causes our salvation. In this sense, not all are "saved," but only the "regenerate," the "believers," the "repentant," the "born again," etc.

As should be clear from this whole thread, however, none of this is a result of a decision we make, even though the world may see and describe it as a mere exercise of our will. When the world speaks of conversion, it means a change of religious opinion. When Scripture speaks of conversion, it means miracle: a divine act of changing the essence -- creating something new that was not there before by divine Word/command, an act no human could possibly do -- to or for him- or herself.

Hope this helps.
 
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LutherNut

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I do have an "exact moment in time" when "I accepted that Jesus Christ is God" - before that I did not think that Jesus Christ was God. I know that He chose me before the world began and many people prayed for me throughout my life, but before that moment I did not believe that Jesus Christ was God and at that moment, His life was deposited into mine - His Holy Spirit entered into my human spirit and since then, His life has been growing within me.

We don't say that "I accepted that Jesus Christ is God." A better way to say that would be "There was a moment when I realized that Jesus Christ is my Savior."

The truth is Christ died and "saved" you nearly 2000 years ago. By that act on His part, you and I and all the world were forgiven of our sins and justified.


It's like the young boy whose parents decided to get him a bicycle for his birthday. They go to the store and look at all the bikes and pick out one for their son. They buy it, take it home, put a bow on it, and put it in the garage until his birthday. They then bring out the bicycle for him.


Now, at what point does the bicycle belong to him? When they gave it to him, or when they bought it, or when they decided to buy it for him? We would say when they decided to get it for him. They never intended to get it for themselves. It was always for him. From that point, he had a bicycle, but he didn't know it until some moment in time when it was revealed to him.


He didn't ask for it, he didn't have to pay for it or do anything to earn it. It was a gift, a gift that he didn't know he had until a particular moment in time.

Our conversion is the same way. Christ died for us, giving us salvation. We already possessed this gift, we just didn't know it until some point in time when it was revealed to us, when we were made aware of it. We don't ask for it, or do anything to earn it. It was already ours by His love and grace.
 
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christianmomof3

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Radidio said:
AMEN!!

You hear alot of "how I was saved, how many gifts do I have, how much properity do I have, how great a witness I am, how spirit filled I am etc"

They seem to take the non-essential things in the bible like the "promisses" so they can get the benefit from it and try to use God as a cornucopia. They degrade God to a lovey dovey sugar daddy and Jesus as a lover.

They read the OT like it's gospel and rarefied law to be kept and the NT like it's law and look down there collective noses at everyone else if we can't attain their respectability (dobee points) that they posses. Seems a shame that they miss the whole point.
Goodness, what a sad answer. I do agree that many people are confused and misled about what the Bible says and what God's purpose for man is. But, I do not think that we should judge others for not having a proper understanding of God and His word. Rather, we should share God and His love and His riches and the truth that is in the Bible with them.
 
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christianmomof3

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LutherNut said:
We don't say that "I accepted that Jesus Christ is God." A better way to say that would be "There was a moment when I realized that Jesus Christ is my Savior."

The truth is Christ died and "saved" you nearly 2000 years ago. By that act on His part, you and I and all the world were forgiven of our sins and justified.

Our conversion is the same way. Christ died for us, giving us salvation. We already possessed this gift, we just didn't know it until some point in time when it was revealed to us, when we were made aware of it. We don't ask for it, or do anything to earn it. It was already ours by His love and grace.
I totally agree that the Lord is the One who saves us. It is His doing, His work, His choice and we cannot save ourselves. I still do not see anything wrong with saying "I am saved" or "I am a Christian" or "I am born-again". None of those statements are saying "I saved myself".

While our initial salvation or justification is completed entirely by God and we have nothing to do with it, we are told to "work out our own salvation". This does not refer to eternal salvation and redemption, which God has already done and is secure, but to our day to day salvation from the world and self. Every day we can choose to either follow the Lord or not to. Our life as a Christian is active - not passive. We are given talents - whether one, two or five and we can either do something with them - preach the gospel and get a return or just bury it and lose it. It is our choice.

There is still one thing that my husband never saw in the Lutheran religion and I have not yet seen here, although it may be that the terminology is just different.That is that when we are born again something happens to us. God Himself - His Holy Spirit comes into our human spirit. Before we are born again, our human spirit is empty - God is not in there. When we accept or realize that Jesus Christ is God and call upon His name or confess His name, His Holy Spirit comes into our human spirit. We have a new life living within us - Jesus Christ Himself lives in our human spirit and He did not live there before. Once He is there, we should pray, read the Bible, and fellowship with other Christians so that His life can grow in us and He can make His home in our hearts. Do ya'll believe that when we are born again the Lord lives in us?
 
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C.F.W. Walther

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christianmomof3 said:
Goodness, what a sad answer. I do agree that many people are confused and misled about what the Bible says and what God's purpose for man is. But, I do not think that we should judge others for not having a proper understanding of God and His word. Rather, we should share God and His love and His riches and the truth that is in the Bible with them.

I am not judging anyone. Judging someone is saying whether they are going to heaven or not. The bible explicitly says that when someone has erred then it has to be pointed out. I won't go into details because the Bible is understood on that issue.

My response comes from first hand knowledge of MANY years contact with the churches in point and to see these churches lead people down the rosy path is heresy and the ministers will be judged accordingly. Read II Peter and tell me it isn't so.

God IS love but he is also righteous, jealous God and he WILL punish pastors that lead his sheep astray. The bible also tells us that through much tribulation ye shall enter into the kingdom of God. There are many passages that cross reference that. He tempers us like steel and we are the better for it. I'm not a pessimist I'm a realist.

When you've been a few more years in your denomination and you're disallusioned then you tell me if I was right or wrong.








:sigh:
 
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christianmomof3

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Radidio said:
I am not judging anyone. Judging someone is saying whether they are going to heaven or not. The bible explicitly says that when someone has erred then it has to be pointed out. I won't go into details because the Bible is understood on that issue.

My response comes from first hand knowledge of MANY years contact with the churches in point and to see these churches lead people down the rosy path is heresy and the ministers will be judged accordingly. Read II Peter and tell me it isn't so.

God IS love but he is also righteous, jealous God and he WILL punish pastors that lead his sheep astray. The bible also tells us that through much tribulation ye shall enter into the kingdom of God. There are many passages that cross reference that. He tempers us like steel and we are the better for it. I'm not a pessimist I'm a realist.

When you've been a few more years in your denomination and you're disallusioned then you tell me if I was right or wrong.


:sigh:
I am sorry that you have been disillusioned. I am aware that there are many "religious" scams and misinformation going on. I agree that those who are perpetuating those misteachings are wrong. The Lord will deal with them as He sees best. I have not been involved in the denominations that do that so I have not had much dealings with wrong teachings.
While we may become disillusioned with people, we can never be disillusioned with God.
I have been meeting with the group that I meet with for 15 years and have enjoyed the Lord very much the entire time.
I pray that you will find enjoyment in Christ also.
 
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KEPLER

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christianmomof3 said:
Goodness, what a sad answer. I do agree that many people are confused and misled about what the Bible says and what God's purpose for man is. But, I do not think that we should judge others for not having a proper understanding of God and His word. Rather, we should share God and His love and His riches and the truth that is in the Bible with them.

Hi Dana,

I think Rad and some others may be responding somewhat from personal experience here. I know I am. (when it's personal, people's responses become somewhat...elevated.)

I was raised in a Pentecostal church, and was constantly told (for the first 18 years of my life) what I had to do to stay right with God. Not listen to the wrong music, not go to movies, not drink alcohol, not have my ear pierced, etc. If I was a "carnal Christian", then I wasn't following the Spirit.

In Lutheran lingo, this is what we call "Law Preaching", and frankly, it's REALLY bad "Law Preaching".

Proper preaching of the Law will reflect what God's Word actually says, not some group's misinterpretation. God says, "Be Ye Holy as I AM Holy." Which is a direct, and unavoidable command to us to be PERFECT.

It is an absolute and unmitigated demand of the Lord Almighty that we be perfect if we want to be his children. We cannot have a single spot or stain. And I'm not talking about "don't dance, drink, smaoke or chew or go with girls who do"...I'm talkin' about the serious stuff.

This is what Lutherans believe (I hope you don't my use of the masculine pronoun, I cut and pasted this from a response I made to someone else, who had the temerity to suggest that Lutherans are antinomians):

To be saved, a person must be absolutley free from all taint of sin.
  • He cannot have a single lie on his conscience;
  • he must have obeyed all laws of the government perfectly;
  • he cannot ever have borrowed or loaned money, for any reason;
  • he must never have failed to feed a homeless person whom he encountered;
  • he must never have failed to put clothes on the naked;
  • he must never have failed to care for the elderly
  • he must never -- not for a single second in his entire life -- have failed to loved the Lord God with his heart, mind, soul and strength;
  • he must never have taken advantage of anyone;
  • he must never have wasted a single second of time;
  • he must never have chastised another person;
  • he must never have looked on a woman with even a single bit of lust or interest of any kind;
  • he must never have sworn an oath;
  • he must never have taken the Lord's name in vain;
  • he must never have voted for a political candidate who put the interests of business over the needs of people;
  • he must never have voted for a political candidate who turned a blind eye on abortion;
  • he must never have puffed himself up with pride because he never voted for canididates who turned a blind eye on abortion;
  • he must never have rejoiced in winning an argument;
  • he must never have divluged a single secret given to him in confidence;
  • he must never - at any moment of his life - talked behind someone's back;
  • he must never have had a single itty bitty angry thought
  • he must never have spoken back to his parents;
  • he must have done everything his parents EVER told him to do, without being asked a second time;
  • he must never have had a single angry thought towards his wife;
  • he must never have shown a single moment of impatience towards his children
Lutherans believe that if you are gulty of any of these (or many, many others) you WILL burn in the everlasting fires of hell.

That's the LAW.

Then there's the Gospel, which says that because of Christ's perfectly lived life, and his perfectly innocent death, we who believe are credited with his righteousness.

End of Story. (Or, rather, Beginning of New Story!)

It's all accomplished. I contribute nothing. The best thing I can ever do in this life would be a filthy rag compared to what Jesus did.

I don't have to do one single thing.

And it's that very freedom from obligation that makes me want to serve my neighbor.

Not perfectly: we still struggle. Romans 7 is the perfect picture of the converted Christian who is struggling in this life. But thanks be to God, for His Son, Jesus Christ.

So, when other denominations start talking about "not being a Carnal Christian" or other such schlock, we Lutherans tend to get the heebyjeeby shivers, becasue (quite simply) they have taken Christ out of the equation. They have turned the focus back onto man, and taken it off of Christ.

Our lives are not: If you want Jesus, do this...

Our lives are: Because you have Jesus, do this...


And when we fall, we don't turn back on ourselves, we turn back to Christ.

Cheers,

Kepler
 
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C.F.W. Walther

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christianmomof3 said:
I am sorry that you have been disillusioned. I am aware that there are many "religious" scams and misinformation going on. I agree that those who are perpetuating those misteachings are wrong. The Lord will deal with them as He sees best. I have not been involved in the denominations that do that so I have not had much dealings with wrong teachings.
While we may become disillusioned with people, we can never be disillusioned with God.
I have been meeting with the group that I meet with for 15 years and have enjoyed the Lord very much the entire time.
I pray that you will find enjoyment in Christ also.

I apologize for coming on so strong but it's a sore spot with me. Every church in a denom is not the same. I understand that but the ones I've been involved with.........well lets just say that some mega churches have a turnover in the thousands with dissallusioned people leaving in droves, but enoug about that,

I do take Joy in my salvation and I don't need outside influences to make me happy. It comes from within.


:angel:
 
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ricg

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christianmomof3 said:
I totally agree that the Lord is the One who saves us. It is His doing, His work, His choice and we cannot save ourselves. I still do not see anything wrong with saying "I am saved" or "I am a Christian" or "I am born-again". None of those statements are saying "I saved myself".

I agree.

christianmomof3 said:
While our initial salvation or justification is completed entirely by God and we have nothing to do with it, we are told to "work out our own salvation". This does not refer to eternal salvation and redemption, which God has already done and is secure, but to our day to day salvation from the world and self. Every day we can choose to either follow the Lord or not to. Our life as a Christian is active - not passive. We are given talents - whether one, two or five and we can either do something with them - preach the gospel and get a return or just bury it and lose it. It is our choice.

And we always choose wrongly and are daily in need of forgiveness. When "we" are passive, God is active in us, and the talents are invested. In the sense in which we are speaking, it is not our choice. Read verse 13. It is God working in us. As applied to the parable, who then really is sowing? Who fails to recognize this? To what does this failure to recognize lead?

The Christian is always in danger of slipping when his or her eyes are fixed on self. We are assured that we will not slip when we keep our eyes on God. When it becomes "our choice," we slip.

These distinctions may seem hypercritical, and we are not saying that Christians who do not make the proper distinctions are lost, but we are warning that false teaching (in this instance, confusion between Law and Gospel in Lutheran parlance) is dangerous and could lead to dispair or conceit.


christianmomof3 said:
There is still one thing that my husband never saw in the Lutheran religion and I have not yet seen here, although it may be that the terminology is just different.That is that when we are born again something happens to us. God Himself - His Holy Spirit comes into our human spirit. Before we are born again, our human spirit is empty - God is not in there. When we accept or realize that Jesus Christ is God and call upon His name or confess His name, His Holy Spirit comes into our human spirit. We have a new life living within us - Jesus Christ Himself lives in our human spirit and He did not live there before. Once He is there, we should pray, read the Bible, and fellowship with other Christians so that His life can grow in us and He can make His home in our hearts. Do ya'll believe that when we are born again the Lord lives in us?

Yes. Again, however, our view is that it works the other way around. We accept that Jesus is God, and call upon and confess His name precisely because He is in us. We don't decide to call upon His name so that He can dwell in us; His Holy Spirit causes us to call upon and confess His name.

You put it well when you said "something happens to us." Precisely. Our growth ("sanctification") depends not upon running around doing "Christian" stuff per se but, like our "initial salvation," upon His grace. How is his grace applied to us? Through the hearing of His Word and the Sacraments: Baptism/Confession and Absolution and the Lord's Supper. We focus on His gracious promises of forgiveness, applied by hearing/reading and receiving the Gospel in conjunction with daily repentence, and frequent reception of His Body and Blood in the Eucharist. In other words, we focus and rely on the gift of Jesus on the cross. (That's why this forum is called "Theologia Crucis," the theology of the cross.) Through that reliance, that is, through faith, we are saved by grace, then He lives and grows in us, and the acts of Christian love follow necessarily as part of God's promise and design.

So the acts you mentioned should not be understood as our acts to help God grow in us. God doesn't need our help. Our job is stay focused on and thankful for His help. Works are how we show our faith and thanksgiving. They are our responses to His work. Certainly we are to be diligent in performing them, for failure to do so is to become a thankless, ungrateful servant.

Think of the parable of the Vine. The branches are fruitful because they are grafted onto the Vine -- through faith. The greater the faith, the more abundently life flows into the branch and the more and better fruit (works) result.

Fellowship and prayer, are good and right when they flow from this relationship, but they should not be understood as ways to earn favor with God, or, more subtly, to help God save us. I'm not saying you see it that way, but there may be a danger that some could misconstrue it that way and that they are on shifting sand.
 
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christianmomof3

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ricg said:
Yes. Again, however, our view is that it works the other way around. We accept that Jesus is God, and call upon and confess His name precisely because He is in us. We don't decide to call upon His name so that He can dwell in us; His Holy Spirit causes us to call upon and confess His name.
So, at what point in time do you think that God's Holy Spirit enters into our human spirit? (sorry for the point in time thing, but I can think of no other way to put it). Do you think that God already lives in everyone and He only begins to act once they recognize Him?
You put it well when you said "something happens to us." Precisely. Our growth ("sanctification") depends not upon running around doing "Christian" stuff per se but, like our "initial salvation," upon His grace.
I agree that we don't need to run around and do "Christian stuff". I don't think I ever suggested anything like that. I do not think our works save us.
How is his grace applied to us? Through the hearing of His Word and the Sacraments: Baptism/Confession and Absolution and the Lord's Supper. We focus on His gracious promises of forgiveness, applied by hearing/reading and receiving the Gospel in conjunction with daily repentence, and frequent reception of His Body and Blood in the Eucharist. In other words, we focus and rely on the gift of Jesus on the cross. (That's why this forum is called "Theologia Crucis," the theology of the cross.) Through that reliance, that is, through faith, we are saved by grace, then He lives and grows in us, and the acts of Christian love follow necessarily as part of God's promise and design.

So the acts you mentioned should not be understood as our acts to help God grow in us. God doesn't need our help. Our job is stay focused on and thankful for His help. Works are how we show our faith and thanksgiving. They are our responses to His work. Certainly we are to be diligent in performing them, for failure to do so is to become a thankless, ungrateful servant.
I don't see praying, calling on the Lord, reading the Bible and fellowshipping with other Christians as acts, but I do think that when we turn our hearts to Christ and do those things, He grows more in us. He also grows in us and transforms us without our doing those things, but I do think that those who pray and read the Bible and fellowship with other Christians grow more in the Lord than a Christian who never reads the Bible or turns to the Lord or fellowships with other Christians or prays.
The Bible shows us that some Christians are more mature than others - in the parable of the virgins - all of whom are saved believers - some do not have enough oil, which represents the Holy Spirit and they are sent to go buy more oil and do not get to go to the wedding feast. Certainly there are those who read their Bibles in a way that it is merely dead letters and there are those who act out of their selves and say it is for the Lord. For these the Lord will say He never knew them.

We are told to Always rejoice, Unceasingly Pray and In Everything Give Thanks.
Think of the parable of the Vine. The branches are fruitful because they are grafted onto the Vine -- through faith. The greater the faith, the more abundently life flows into the branch and the more and better fruit (works) result.

Fellowship and prayer, are good and right when they flow from this relationship, but they should not be understood as ways to earn favor with God, or, more subtly, to help God save us. I'm not saying you see it that way, but there may be a danger that some could misconstrue it that way and that they are on shifting sand.
I agree that all things that we do should go through the cross first. We should do all things in Christ and through Christ. The works done in Him are gold, silver and precious stones. The works done outside of Him, no matter how nice they may seem, are merely wood, grass and stubble and will be burned up. I do not think that any things we do earn favor with God or help Him to save us. I do think that the more time we spend with Him, the more He can transform us and grow in us.
 
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LilLamb219

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but I do thing that those who pray and read the Bible and fellowship with other Christians grow more in the Lord than a Christian who never reads the Bible or turns to the Lord or fellowships with other Christians or prays.

That is because God's Word is living and active and will not return empty...not because the person is actually doing anything, it's once again God at work through His Word.

So, at what point in time do you think that God's Holy Spirit enters into our human spirit?
God uses means and He has given us His Word to create faith within us. Lutherans don't separate the Holy Spirit from God's Word really as you don't have one without the other.

We have His Word in scripture, in baptism and the Lord's Supper. We cannot say with all certainty when God's Word has given faith to each individual because, as you may remember, John the Baptist showed faith by leaping in his mother's womb when Mary who was pregnant with Jesus was near. God's Word gives us faith to not just believe that there is a God but to trust in His forgiveness of our sins so we may have eternal life.
 
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ricg

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christianmomof3 said:
So, at what point in time do you think that God's Holy Spirit enters into our human spirit? (sorry for the point in time thing, but I can think of no other way to put it). Do you think that God already lives in everyone and He only begins to act once they recognize Him?

No. The Holy Spirit comes when and and to whom He wills and in the manner He wills. His coming causes the one upon whom He comes to recognize and, if not resisted, rely on the Truth. The cause of their recognition is His act rather than the cause of His action being their recognition.

christianmomof3 said:
I don't see praying, calling on the Lord, reading the Bible and fellowshipping with other Christians as acts, but I do think that when we turn our hearts to Christ and do those things, He grows more in us. He also grows in us and transforms us without our doing those things, but I do think that those who pray and read the Bible and fellowship with other Christians grow more in the Lord than a Christian who never reads the Bible or turns to the Lord or fellowships with other Christians or prays.

I find it difficult to not see them as acts. I think what is closer to what occurs is that the less we resist God, the more we grow in Him. If we do not resist the Holy Spirit, we will constantly turn to Him for nourishment, as a plant grows toward the sun, and roots seek water. This manifests itself in our daily communion -- Bible reading, listening to preaching, use of the Sacraments and thanksgiving -- praise and sacrifice.

christianmomof3 said:
The Bible shows us that some Christians are more mature than others - in the parable of the virgins - all of whom are saved believers - some do not have enough oil, which represents the Holy Spirit and they are sent to go buy more oil and do not get to go to the wedding feast. Certainly there are those who read their Bibles in a way that it is merely dead letters and there are those who act out of their selves and say it is for the Lord. For these the Lord will say He never knew them.

In what sense are believers without sufficient oil saved?

christianmomof3 said:
We are told to Always rejoice, Unceasingly Pray and In Everything Give Thanks.
christianmomof3 said:
I agree that all things that we do should go through the cross first. We should do all things in Christ and through Christ. The works done in Him are gold, silver and precious stones. The works done outside of Him, no matter how nice they may seem, are merely wood, grass and stubble and will be burned up. I do not think that any things we do earn favor with God or help Him to save us. I do think that the more time we spend with Him, the more He can transform us and grow in us.

I think you're on the right track here. This parable admonishes believers to be watchful. I think it tells us (and this may be what you're getting at) to stay "plugged-in," so to speak. That is, we must be careful to stay focused on God's means of grace (Word and Sacraments) so that we do not lose our faith. When we are plugged-in, it shows with works.

To bring this full circle, Lutherans do not spend much time preaching about Christian living, which is perhaps what your husband felt was missing. While it is true that the impenitent need to be clobbered with the God's law and the threat of retribution to understand the seriousness of their position, it does not help them, once they come to repentence, to recommend trying harder. The point of preaching the law is to show them that they have not lived up to it, as Kepler's post makes clear, so that God can make them penitent.

The penitent, however, need to stay focused on Christ's merciful promises, because one who focuses on repentence and grace will maintain a healthy relationship (remain watchful), and works of thankgiving will flow from that relationship. Lutherans tend to see a real danger that exaggerated emphasis by the Church on Christian living risks the "saved" becoming unplugged by relying on their own works rather than on Jesus' works.
 
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Edial

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LutherNut said:
...


Your salvation was not at all dependent or caused by your "calling upon the Name of the Lord." We call upon His Name because we are saved, not to be saved.

Try the sentence this way: "Had I not been saved, I would not have called on the Name of the Lord.".
RO 10:9 That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

This says that one will be saved after he believes in his heart and confesses.

Thanks,
Ed
 
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Edial

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Radidio said:
I am not judging anyone. .....
When you've been a few more years in your denomination and you're disallusioned then you tell me if I was right or wrong.

:sigh:
:D . I think you just judged the entire denomination.

Thanks,
Ed
 
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