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Die Daily Did Paul Mean it the Way Ellen White used it.

RC_NewProtestants

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What did Paul mean by Die Daily

One of the things that is of prime importance to Progressive Adventists is that our beliefs do not come about by mere tradition or reading our tradition into the Bible. This has been the tendency of certain segments of Adventists for quite some time. Certainly not restricted to only Adventism but also to many of the fundamentalist Christian churches. In fact these fundamentalist have for some time now declared anything that went against their traditions as Higher Criticism. For instance the Adventist Lesson Study Guide for April 22, 2007 says the following:

“Many have been his attempts over the centuries to destroy it. When, finally, because of massive circulation, the destruction of the Bible became impossible, Satan tried a new tact: If he couldn't destroy the Scriptures themselves, then he could do the next best thing: destroy their credibility. Hence, the arrival of what's known as higher criticism, which has been very successful in destroying faith in the Bible as the Word of God…”

This type of non contextual method of interpretation has lead many Adventists to assert that Paul when he uses the expression “I die daily”, quite apart from the context of danger as he preaches the gospel to some type of metaphysical death to self daily.

1 Cor 15:29-32
29 Else what shall they do which are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not at all? why are they then baptized for the dead?
30 And why stand we in jeopardy every hour?
31 I protest by your rejoicing which I have in Christ Jesus our Lord, I die daily.
32 If after the manner of men I have fought with beasts at Ephesus, what advantageth it me, if the dead rise not? let us eat and drink; for to morrow we die.(KJV)


1 Cor 15:29-32
29 Now if there is no resurrection, what will those do who are baptized for the dead? If the dead are not raised at all, why are people baptized for them?
30 And as for us, why do we endanger ourselves every hour?
31 I die every day-- I mean that, brothers-- just as surely as I glory over you in Christ Jesus our Lord.
32 If I fought wild beasts in Ephesus for merely human reasons, what have I gained? If the dead are not raised, "Let us eat and drink, for tomorrow we die."(NIV)

Clearly Paul is referring to his life being endangered. But where do SDA’s get the idea that Paul is dying daily to self. It is from Ellen White’s misinterpretation of 1 Cor. 15:31.

Testimonies vol 3 page 221 Addressed to Two Young Men Last December I was shown the dangers and temptations of youth. The two younger sons of Father O need to be converted. They need to die daily to self. Paul, the faithful apostle, had a fresh experience daily. He says: "I die daily." This is exactly the experience that these young men need. They are in danger of overlooking present duty and of neglecting the education that is essential for practical life. They regard education in books as the all-important matter to be attended to in order to make life a success. 3T.221.003 (Testimonies Vol 3 p. 221)

Testimonies vol 4 page 066 The Lord requires us to be submissive to His will, subdued by His Spirit, and sanctified to His service. Selfishness must be put away, and we must overcome every defect in our characters as Christ overcame. In order to accomplish this work, we must die daily to self. Said Paul: "I die daily." He had a new conversion every day, took an advance step toward heaven. To gain daily victories in the divine life is the only course that God approves. The Lord is gracious, of tender pity, and plenteous in mercy. He knows our needs and weaknesses, and He will help our infirmities if we only trust in Him and believe that He will bless us and do great things for us.( Testimonies vol 4 page 66)

Ministry of Healing page 452 The life of the apostle Paul was a constant conflict with self. He said, "I die daily." 1 Corinthians 15:31. His will and his desires every day conflicted with duty and the will of God. Instead of following inclination, he did God's will, however crucifying to his nature. (The Ministry of Healing page 452)

Signs of the Times 1887-03-0 page 18
The Lord would have us submissive to his will, and sanctified to his service. Selfishness must be put away, with every other defect in our characters. There must be a daily death to self. Paul had this experience. He said, "I die daily." Every day he had a new conversion; every day he took an advance step toward Heaven. We, too, must gain daily victories in the divine life, if we would enjoy the favor of God. (Signs of the Times Mar. 1887 page 3)

You will notice that this view is not at all the message in Paul, as the Expositor’s Bible Commentary says:

30-32 Another argument for the resurrection is that if it is not true, then suffering and hardship for the sake of Christ are useless. By "endangering ourselves every hour," Paul seems to be alluding to peril looming up in his ministry in Ephesus (cf. Acts 19), where he was when he wrote 1 Corinthians. He is in danger of death every day (v. 31). He seals this assertion with the oath (Greek, ne, "I mean that, brothers") that this is as true as the fact that he glories over them and over their union with Christ. Paul's reference to fighting with wild beasts in Ephesus (v. 32) may be taken literally or figuratively. But since from Acts 19 we see no evidence of such punishment and since it was questionable whether a Roman citizen would be subjected to such treatment, it is best to take the words metaphorically--the human enemies he fought with at Ephesus were like wild beasts. But, Paul says, why go through all this suffering if there is no hope of resurrection? To prove his point, he first quotes Isaiah 22:13, (possibly for the benefit of the Jewish believers at Corinth) from a context of reckless living that the Lord condemns. So without eternal hope through the resurrection, men have nothing to turn to but gratification of their appetites.

From some readily available internet commentaries:
[FONT=&quot]The New John Gill Exposition of the Entire Bible[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]1 Corinthians 15:30[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]And why stand we in jeopardy every hour[/FONT][FONT=&quot]?
Not only they that have suffered martyrdom for the faith of Christ, and for this article of it, have acted very injudiciously and indiscreetly; but we, also, who are on the spot, whether ministers or private Christians, must be highly blameworthy, who continually expose ourselves to dangers, and are for Christ's sake killed all the day long, are every moment liable to innumerable injuries, tortures and death; who in his senses would act such a part, if there is no resurrection of the dead? such, as they must be of all men the most miserable, so of all men the most stupid. [/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]The 1599 [/FONT][FONT=&quot]Geneva[/FONT][FONT=&quot] Study Bible[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]15:30[/FONT][FONT=&quot] 16 And why stand we in jeopardy every hour? [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]
(16) The sixth argument: unless there is a resurrection of the dead, why should the apostles so daily cast themselves into danger of so many deaths? [/FONT]

[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Matthew Henry Complete Commentary
on the Whole Bible[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]And his next is as plain to us. IV. He argues from the absurdity of his own conduct and that of other Christians upon this supposition, 1. It would be a foolish thing for them to run so many hazards (v. 30): "Why stand we in jeopardy every hour? Why do we expose ourselves to continual peril-we Christians, especially we apostles?’’ Every one knows that it was dangerous being a Christian, and much more a preacher and an apostle, at that time. "Now,’’ says the apostle, "what fools are we to run these hazards, if we have no better hopes beyond death, if when we die we die wholly, and revive no more!’’ Note, Christianity were a foolish profession if it proposed no hopes beyond this life, at least in such hazardous times as attended the first profession of it; it required men to risk all the blessings and comforts of this life, and to face and endure all the evils of it, without any future prospects. And is this a character of his religion fit for a Christian to endure? And must he not fix this character on it if he give up his future hopes, and deny the resurrection of the dead? This argument the apostle brings home to himself: "I protest,’’ says he, "by your rejoicing in Jesus Christ, by all the comforts of Christianity, and all the peculiar succours and supports of our holy faith, that I die daily,’’ v. 31. He was in continual danger of death, and carried his life, as we say, in his hand. And why should he thus expose himself, if he had no hopes after life? To live in daily view and expectation of death, and yet have no prospect beyond it, must be very heartless and uncomfortable, and his case, upon this account, a very melancholy one. He had need be very well assured of the resurrection of the dead, or he was guilty of extreme weakness, in hazarding all that was dear to him in this world, and his life into the bargain. He had encountered very great difficulties and fierce enemies; he had fought with beasts at Ephesus (v. 32), and was in danger of being pulled to pieces by an enraged multitude, stirred up by Demetrius and the other craftsmen (Acts 19:24, etc.), though some understand this literally of Paul’s being exposed to fight with wild beasts in the amphitheatre, at a Roman show in that city. And Nicephorus tells a formal story to this purport, and of the miraculous complaisance of the lions to him when they came near him. But so remarkable a trial and circumstance of his life, methinks, would not have been passed over by Luke, and much less by himself, when he gives us so large and particular a detail of his sufferings, 2 Co. 11:24, ad fin. When he mentioned that he was five times scourged of the Jews, thrice beaten with rods, once stoned, thrice shipwrecked, it is strange that he should not have said that he was once exposed to fight with the beasts. I take it, therefore, that this fighting with beasts is a figurative expression, that the beasts intended were men of a fierce and ferine disposition, and that this refers to the passage above cited. "Now,’’ says he, "what advantage have I from such contests, if the dead rise not? Why should I die daily, expose myself daily to the danger of dying by violent hands, if the dead rise not? And if post mortem nihil — if I am to perish by death, and expect nothing after it, could any thing be more weak?’’ Was Paul so senseless? Had he given the Corinthians any ground to entertain such a thought of him? If he had not been well assured that death would have been to his advantage, would he, in this stupid manner, have thrown away his life? Could any thing but the sure hopes of a better life after death have extinguished the love of life in him to this degree? "What advantageth it me, if the dead rise not? What can I propose to myself?’’[/FONT]


[FONT=&quot]John Wesley's Explanatory Notes
on the Whole Bible[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Verse 30. Why are we - The apostles. Also in danger every hour - It is plain we can expect no amends in this life. Verse 31. I protest by your rejoicing, which I have - Which love makes my own. I die daily - I am daily in the very jaws of death. Beside that I live, as it were, in a daily martyrdom.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]If this subject is ever brought up to a Traditional Adventist they generally will have no answer or their answer will be something to the effect that if he was willing to die then he must have been unselfish and being unselfish means that he was daily dieing to self. Which is the classic way of reading information into the text (eisegesis) rather then letting the text speak for itself (exegesis). [/FONT]
 

woobadooba

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You're right. The context definitely shows that Paul was talking about his life being endangered every day. EGW clearly misinterpreted this text.

Then why would he speak of dying daily when he merely meant to say his life is in danger on a daily basis?

Is there not a difference between saying:

I die daily

and

I am in danger on a daily basis

???

Did anyone ever think for a moment that both ideas could fit the context?
 
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RC_NewProtestants

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Did anyone ever think for a moment that both ideas could fit the context?
This is the typical response of a traditional Adventist. It amounts to the idea that there is a secret meaning in the text and if you "read between the lines" you will see it. Of course they would not even suggest such a thing if not for it being an Ellen White statement.

If the subject was dieing daily to self you would think he would have been more direct, maybe used the expression when he talking about killing the old man. Instead the secret meaning is found in the context of talking about resurrection.

This is such a good demonstration of the problem in Adventism. The Traditional Adventist cannot even read the Bible without inserting into it the meanings their tradition has given them. Yet if that is pointed out to them, the context and meaning in a verse, they pretend that pointing out what the Bible actually says is an attack upon Traditional Adventism.

In fact it is! But that is the nature of the search for truth that false views have to be abandoned. This why I have used the following quote on my website:
“We all want progress. But progress means getting nearer to the place where you want to be. And if you have taken a wrong turn, then to go forward does not get you any nearer. If you are on the wrong road, progress means doing an about-turn and walking back to the right road; and in that case the man who turns back soonest is the most progressive man. . .There is nothing progressive about being pigheaded and refusing to admit a mistake." C. S. Lewis, Mere Christianity (New York: Macmillan, 1952), Book I, Chap. 5, p. 22.
http://newprotestants.com/sda.htm
 
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woobadooba

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This is the typical response of a traditional Adventist. It amounts to the idea that there is a secret meaning in the text and if you "read between the lines" you will see it. Of course they would not even suggest such a thing if not for it being an Ellen White statement.

If the subject was dieing daily to self you would think he would have been more direct, maybe used the expression when he talking about killing the old man. Instead the secret meaning is found in the context of talking about resurrection.

This is such a good demonstration of the problem in Adventism. The Traditional Adventist cannot even read the Bible without inserting into it the meanings their tradition has given them. Yet if that is pointed out to them, the context and meaning in a verse, they pretend that pointing out what the Bible actually says is an attack upon Traditional Adventism.

In fact it is! But that is the nature of the search for truth that false views have to be abandoned. This why I have used the following quote on my website:
http://newprotestants.com/sda.htm

Hmmmmmmmmmm:scratch:

If Paul didn't live a selfless life why did he suffer so much persecution?

I die daily for Christ = the world hates me for it:idea:

Hence persecution and endangerment.

Have a nice day:wave:
 
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Sophia7

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Hmmmmmmmmmm:scratch:

If Paul didn't live a selfless life why did he suffer so much persecution?

I die daily for Christ = the world hates me for it:idea:

Hence persecution and endangerment.

Have a nice day:wave:

Paul did live a selfless life, but that's not what he was referring to in this text when he said, "I die daily" (other than the fact that it was obviously selfless to put his life on the line every day by preaching the gospel of Christ). He wasn't talking about having "a new conversion every day," as EGW wrote.
 
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woobadooba

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Paul did live a selfless life, but that's not what he was referring to in this text when he said, "I die daily" (other than the fact that it was obviously selfless to put his life on the line every day by preaching the gospel of Christ). He wasn't talking about having "a new conversion every day," as EGW wrote.

Well, I didn't mean to imply that he said that he had a new conversion each day.

I just simply meant that as a result of living a selfless life for Christ he suffered persecution daily.

Thus "I die daily" for Christ = the world hates me for it.

Hence persecution and endangerment.
 
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woobadooba

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It's too bad she isn't alive right now to let us know what she meant by "conversion" within this context.

Words can have many shades of meaning, you know?

Of course, by looking at the context that the saying appears in, it seems to me that she was just simply referring to the idea that Paul lived a selfless life, not that he had to be re-converted on a daily basis.

That's what I get out of it anyway. Of course, I can't expect everyone to see it that way, especially in here where so many people oppose the writings of Ellen White.
 
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RC_NewProtestants

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That's what I get out of it anyway. Of course, I can't expect everyone to see it that way, especially in here where so many people oppose the writings of Ellen White.
Bible interpretation is not about Ellen White, this only happens when someone lets Ellen White interpret the Bible for them. This is the effect of divided loyalty, on the one hand they claim to follow the Bible yet on the other hand they follow Ellen White's interpretation of the Bible rather then the Bible.

The funny thing is Woob has probably seen the expression used by Adventist about dieing daily to self many times. Probably never even questioned it and now he is wondering if she were alive how would she was using the word conversion.

For instance Our Firm Foundation magazine writes:
The surrendering process is daily and moment by moment. “I protest by your rejoicing which I have in Christ Jesus our Lord, I die daily.” 1 Corinthians 15:31
http://72.14.253.104/search?q=cache...daily"+"ellen+white"&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=5&gl=us
Here is a quote from Operation Global Rain an Adventist movement based upon another Christian myth, the Latter Rain:
Another very important point is that we must renew this infilling every day. Paul said, "I die daily", (1Corinthians 15:31). The dying to self and infilling of the Spirit is a daily experience. It is not a "once and for ever" experience. Paul tells us that the "inward man is renewed day by day", (2Corinthians 4:16). We need the renewing of the Spirit every day of our life. Also, Paul's command to "be filled with the Spirit", (Ephesians 5:18), is a continuous action verb in the Greek meaning we are to keep on being filled with the Spirit daily. http://operationglobalrain.webdevdepot.net/j/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=39&Itemid=34
Here is a quote from the 1888 Study committee:
This all sounds so simple, as if all we have to do each day is wake up in the morning, and it just happens. It would be that easy, except for something Paul called “the old man” which does things that he hates because of “another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind” (Rom. 7:23). It is because of this, that there is a struggle. The daily “good fight of faith” is to crucify self so that it is God’s will, not ours, that reigns in us. In the garden, Christ said to His Father: “Not My will but Yours, be done.” Paul said, “I die daily.” It isn’t an exaggeration to say, “I die minute by minute.” http://1888gladtidings.com/ss_insights/1q05/1q05_12sanctification.htm
And this one is so typical of what you hear on SDA forums:
Where is the evidence for your theory, that we cannot keep the commandments? Paul is talking about the old self in Rom 7. This is why he says “I die daily” in order to maintain his daily union with God. http://www.heavenlysanctuary.com/hsforum/viewtopic.php?p=6487&sid=eec586296547ab8f1aaf28fbd24e3ed2
 
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Sophia7

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It's too bad she isn't alive right now to let us know what she meant by "conversion" within this context.

I would venture to say that Ellen White would tell you that you misunderstood what she had said if she were able to speak to you today.

Too bad Paul isn't alive today to let us know what he meant. ;)
 
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RC_NewProtestants

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Too bad Paul isn't alive today to let us know what he meant. ;)
I think Paul would have had little patience if you asked him what do you mean by saying "If the dead are not raised at all, why are people baptized for them? 30 And as for us, why do we endanger ourselves every hour?"

It is pretty obvious what he means because if the dead are not raised nothing of Paul's message is of any value. Why endanger yourself in this life if there was nothing else. It would make no sense to shorten your life here if there was no resurrection, no reward. This is why even the idea that Paul was being selfless as a way of interpreting this text does not work. Because he is very much interested in what will happen in the future with this text. So Paul summed it up in verse
32 If I fought wild beasts in Ephesus for merely human reasons, what have I gained? If the dead are not raised, "Let us eat and drink, for tomorrow we die."(NIV)

Paul would be annoyed at you for asking about what he rather clearly stated. Ellen White would probably be annoyed that her comments were based upon false premises and nobody corrected her.


29 Now if there is no resurrection, what will those do who are baptized for the dead? If the dead are not raised at all, why are people baptized for them?
30 And as for us, why do we endanger ourselves every hour?
31 I die every day-- I mean that, brothers-- just as surely as I glory over you in Christ Jesus our Lord.
32 If I fought wild beasts in Ephesus for merely human reasons, what have I gained? If the dead are not raised, "Let us eat and drink, for tomorrow we die."(NIV)
 
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Sophia7

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Paul would be annoyed at you for asking about what he rather clearly stated. Ellen White would probably be annoyed that her comments were based upon false premises and nobody corrected her.

I only meant that if I wished to talk to one of them about the Bible, I'd rather talk to Paul than to Ellen White.
 
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woobadooba

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Too bad Paul isn't alive today to let us know what he meant. ;)

That would be good, but for now we will just have to settle for what really makes sense.

And it makes sense to me that both meanings are valid.

By the way, if you don't have anything nice to say about Ellen White, then perhaps you should just not say anything at all about her.

We all know that you don't like her. There is no need to keep reminding us of that.

The same goes for you too RC.
 
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RC_NewProtestants

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woob wrote:

By the way, if you don't have anything nice to say about Ellen White, then perhaps you should just not say anything at all about her.

We all know that you don't like her. There is no need to keep reminding us of that.

The same goes for you too RC.

This is the Progressive SDA forum and we don't really have to abide by the rules that Traditional SDA's may want to impose. But if you want to come here and insult us then I am sure I could be persuaded to continue to post on the General SDA forum, as it seems you really only want to complain and I have no problem letting people know that the SDA church is not made up of traditional SDA's. I just got tired of the whining so I thought I would make life easier for those who can't tolerate other opinions. But if you are just going to complain on the Progressive SDA forum I may as well go back to the General SDA forum.
 
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