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Did the early church worship on Sabbath?

Jan001

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You are reading into that verse and ignoring other parts of scripture. Scripture clearly tells us not to go outside of God's Word. Isa 8:20

Jesus also in His own Words tells us if we keep our traditions over the commandments of God - quoting right from the Ten- one heart is far from Him- is that what a believer wants- to have our hearts far from God which is opposite of the New Covenant- God's law written by God in our hearts. Heb 8:10. While some traditions are fine- it's when they lead us away from God's Word Isa 8:20- away from God's commandments Mat 15:3-14- it is literally taking one down the wrong path and a path that leads one in a ditch Mat 15:14. We have free will, but its not the direction I would want to go. Jesus tells us not a jot or tittle can be removed from His law until all is fulfilled which is when Jesus returns. His teachings will lead us on the path back to Him we just need to place our faith in Him and trust His Word.
It is time for you to come out of the first covenant, which Jesus finished and made obsolete, and be obedient to his teachings in his own New Covenant.

Scripture refutes your dogma of scripture alone! Scripture does not need to be stated any plainer than this:

2 Thessalonians 2:15 So then,
brothers and sisters, stand firm and hold fast to the traditions that you were taught by us, either by word of mouth or by our letter.

Like I said before, I cannot continue a conversation with anyone who denies the fact that God's word was handed down by word-of-mouth tradition and by letter, aka scripture tradition. Both traditions are equally important.
 
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SabbathBlessings

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It is time for you to come out of the first covenant, which Jesus finished and made obsolete, and be obedient to his teachings in his own New Covenant.

Scripture refutes your dogma of scripture alone! Scripture does not need to be stated any plainer than this:

2 Thessalonians 2:15 So then,
brothers and sisters, stand firm and hold fast to the traditions that you were taught by us, either by word of mouth or by our letter.

Like I said before, I cannot continue a conversation with anyone who denies the fact that God's word was handed down by word-of-mouth tradition and by letter, aka scripture tradition. Both traditions are equally important.
You might consider trying to reconcile the scriptures that puts this one verse in its context. If its danger going outside of God's Word Isa 8:20, do not edit or add to His Word Pro 30:5-6- which comes with some consequences - the traditions this verse speaks of has to be in harmony with God's Word, not going against the very teachings of Jesus Mat 5:18-30, Mat 15:3-14 Mark 7:7-13 which His Words we are to live by Mat 4:4

The New Covenant is God's law written in our heart Heb 8:10, not tradition where we can make up our own rules over obeying God's- something Jesus condemned. Mat 15:3-14 Mark 7:7-13
 
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Jan001

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So you're going to ignore all of the scripture that puts this one verse in its context. Thats a choice one can make.

The New Covenant is God's law written in our heart Heb 8:10, not tradition where we can make up our own rules over obeying God's- something Jesus condemned. Mat 15:3-14 Mark 7:7-13
Scripture refutes your dogma of scripture alone! Scripture does not need to be stated any plainer than this:

2 Thessalonians 2:15 So then,
brothers and sisters, stand firm and hold fast to the traditions that you were taught by us, either by word of mouth or by our letter.

You may continue to ignore this New Covenant teaching. This is your choice to make.

I am unsubscribing from this thread. I have nothing more to add to this topic. :)
 
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Aaron112

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the fact that the apostles were observing the Sabbath as has been shown many times over in the book of Acts.
... not only in the book of Acts,
but all other books of Scripture,
and as YHVH permitted or even directed Himself in the small percentage of reported "news" that is not/was not/ deceptive for the last 2000 years.
 
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reddogs

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I have also done a lot of research, which is why I know your claims are false. It isn't a matter of not appreciating Hislop's book, it's a matter of recognizing there is no basis for the conclusions he makes.
Reading what the scripture says can also be helpful in discernment of the truth to say nothing of pointing out false tradition and doctrines of another origin..
 
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BobRyan

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Not only did the Jews come for Sabbath but the Gentiles, and in Acts we see almost the whole city wanted to be there on the Sabbath.

Acts 13:42-44
King James Version (KJV)
42 And when the Jews were gone out of the synagogue, the Gentiles besought that these words might be preached to them the next sabbath.
43 Now when the congregation was broken up, many of the Jews and religious proselytes followed Paul and Barnabas: who, speaking to them, persuaded them to continue in the grace of God.
44 And the next sabbath day came almost the whole city together to hear the word of God.

Now we see the Gentiles keep the Sabbath in Antioch as we see Paul when he came there, meeting with them in the synagogue on the Sabbath day.

Acts 13:14
But when they departed from Perga, they came to Antioch in Pisidia, and went into the synagogue on the sabbath day, and sat down.

We see much the same in the early church in Thessalonica when Paul as was his manner, entered on three Sabbath days and reasoned with them out of the scriptures.

Acts 17:2
And Paul, as his manner was, went in unto them, and three sabbath days reasoned with them out of the scriptures,

And we see more of the same in the early church in Corinth were Paul went every Sabbath and we clearly see it says "persuaded the Jews and the Greeks."

Acts 18:4
And he reasoned in the synagogue every sabbath, and persuaded the Jews and the Greeks.

And we see it was the same thing that Christ had done when He was in His ministry before Paul.

Mark 6:2
And when the sabbath day was come, he began to teach in the synagogue: and many hearing him were astonished, saying, From whence hath this man these things? and what wisdom is this which is given unto him, that even such mighty works are wrought by his hands?

Luke 4:16
And he came to Nazareth, where he had been brought up: and, as his custom was, he went into the synagogue on the sabbath day, and stood up for to read.

Luke 4:31
And came down to Capernaum, a city of Galilee, and taught them on the sabbath days.

As had Christ, the Paul worshiped in the early church on the seventh-day Sabbath. We clearly see that in his travels Paul attended the synagogue on the Sabbath with Gentiles and Jews, and preached Christ. Even in places where there was no synagogue, he searched for where the early church met for Sabbath worship.

We find much in history that shows the early church observing the seventh day Sabbath which nearly all Protestant, Orthodox, or Roman Catholic theologians agree was true, and showed that the Sabbath was clearly spread throughout the world in the early church.

Josephus
"There is not any city of the Grecians, nor any of the Barbarians, nor any nation whatsoever, whither our custom of resting on the seventh day hath not come!" M'Clatchie, "Notes and Queries on China and Japan" (edited by Dennys), Vol 4, Nos 7, 8, p.100.

Philo
Declares the seventh day to be a festival, not of this or of that city, but of the universe. M'Clatchie, "Notes and Queries," Vol. 4, 99

Early Christians
"The primitive Christians had a great veneration for the Sabbath, and spent the day in devotion and sermons. And it is not to be doubted but they derived this practice from the Apostles themselves, as appears by several scriptures to the purpose." "Dialogues on the Lord's Day," p. 189. London: 1701, By Dr. T.H. Morer (A Church of England divine).

Early Christians
"...The Sabbath was a strong tie which united them with the life of the whole people, and in keeping the Sabbath holy they followed not only the example but also the command of Jesus." "Geschichte des Sonntags," pp.13, 14

2nd Century Christians
"The Gentile Christians observed also the Sabbath," Gieseler's "Church History," Vol.1, ch. 2, par. 30, 93.

Early Christians
"The primitive Christians did keep the Sabbath of the Jews;...therefore the Christians, for a long time together, did keep their conventions upon the Sabbath, in which some portions of the law were read: and this continued till the time of the Laodicean council." "The Whole Works" of Jeremy Taylor, Vol. IX,p. 416 (R. Heber's Edition, Vol XII, p. 416).

You can find even more in this study..
at https://www.sabbath.org/index.cfm/l...ath-first-day-during-first-five-centuries.htm
Thanks for posting that.

Very good findings in those examples above.
 
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BobRyan

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Scripture refutes your dogma of scripture alone!
Acts 17:11 affirms the testing of all doctrine "sola scriptura" and it proves that even non-Christians can do it in that example.

This is irrefutable.

Mark 7:7-13 shows an example of Christ slaim-hammering supposedly infallible tradition in His day - sola scriptura.
Scripture does not need to be stated any plainer than this:

2 Thessalonians 2:15 So then,
brothers and sisters, stand firm and hold fast to the traditions that you were taught by us, either by word of mouth or by our letter.
traditions - tested -- sola scriptura - as we saw in Acts 17:11

Is 8:20 "to the Law and to the testimony - if they do not speak according to this WORD - there is no light in them"
You may continue to ignore this New Covenant teaching.
New Covenant is Old Testament according to the Word of God in Jer 31:31-34 AND in Heb 8:6-12 where Jer 31 is quoted verbatim:)
 
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BobRyan

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It is time for you to come out of the first covenant, which Jesus finished and made obsolete, and be obedient to his teachings in his own New Covenant.
His new Covenant in Heb 8:6-12 is Old Testament Jer 31:31-34 --

this is irrefutable.
 
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The Liturgist

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The Eastern Orthodox Church, which goes back to the Apostles, still honors the Sabbath day in remembrance of God resting in the tomb after His crucifixion on the day of preparation, however we celebrate more His glorious resurrection on the eighth day, which is an eternal day not followed by night.

Indeed. And I would argue that the only correct way is the way we and other traditional liturgical churches do it (for example, the Roman Catholics used to celebrate the Paschal Vigil Mass in the morning of Holy Saturday until Pope Pius XII abolished that and the Presanctified Liturgy of St. Gregory in the Roman Rite in the early 1950s, the core wording of which matched our version of the Presanctified Liturgy of St. Gregory Diologos.
 
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Jan001

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Acts 17:11 affirms the testing of all doctrine "sola scriptura" and it proves that even non-Christians can do it in that example.

This is irrefutable.
These Jews from Beroea studied OT Scripture to deduce that Jesus is the Messiah. This is the context of this verse. It definitely does not mean what you think it means.

Mark 7:7-13 shows an example of Christ slaim-hammering supposedly infallible tradition in His day - sola scriptura.

traditions - tested -- sola scriptura - as we saw in Acts 17:11

Is 8:20 "to the Law and to the testimony - if they do not speak according to this WORD - there is no light in them"

New Covenant is Old Testament according to the Word of God in Jer 31:31-34 AND in Heb 8:6-12 where Jer 31 is quoted verbatim:)

You assume sola scriptura. There is no scripture making this claim.

You cannot dismiss the following commands:

2 Thessalonians 2:15 So then, brothers and sisters, stand firm and hold fast to the traditions that you were taught by us, either by word of mouth or by our letter.

2 Thessalonians 3:4 And we have confidence in the Lord concerning you, that you are doing and will go on doing the things that we command.


We know that the early church worshiped God on Sundays. This commandment from Jesus to worship God on Sunday was taught and handed down as a tradition by the apostles and you can see that Jesus' commandment is still being followed today in Jesus' local churches throughout the whole world. Jesus founded an apostolic church. His apostolic church has received his authority to teach his gospel until he returns at his second coming. 2 Timothy 2:1-3


Justin Martyr FIRST APOLOGY, circa 153-155 A.D., CHAPTER LXVII -- WEEKLY WORSHIP OF THE CHRISTIANS.

And we afterwards continually remind each other of these things. And the wealthy among us help the needy; and we always keep together; and for all things wherewith we are supplied, we bless the Maker of all through His Son Jesus Christ, and through the Holy Ghost. And on the day called Sunday, all who live in cities or in the country gather together to one place, and the memoirs of the apostles or the writings of the prophets are read, as long as time permits; then, when the reader has ceased, the president verbally instructs, and exhorts to the imitation of these good things. Then we all rise together and pray, and, as we before said, when our prayer is ended, bread and wine and water are brought, and the president in like manner offers prayers and thanksgivings, according to his ability, and the people assent, saying Amen; and there is a distribution to each, and a participation of that over which thanks have been given, and to those who are absent a portion is sent by the deacons. And they who are well to do, and willing, give what each thinks fit; and what is collected is deposited with the president, who succours the orphans and widows and those who, through sickness or any other cause, are in want, and those who are in bonds and the strangers sojourning among us, and in a word takes care of all who are in need. But Sunday is the day on which we all hold our common assembly, because it is the first day on which God, having wrought a change in the darkness and matter, made the world; and Jesus Christ our Saviour on the same day rose from the dead. For He was crucified on the day before that of Saturn (Saturday); and on the day after that of Saturn, which is the day of the Sun, having appeared to His apostles and disciples, He taught them these things,
 
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SabbathBlessings

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These Jews from Beroea studied OT Scripture to deduce that Jesus is the Messiah. This is the context of this verse. It definitely does not mean what you think it means.



You assume sola scriptura. There is no scripture making this claim.

You cannot dismiss the following commands:

2 Thessalonians 2:15 So then, brothers and sisters, stand firm and hold fast to the traditions that you were taught by us, either by word of mouth or by our letter.

2 Thessalonians 3:4 And we have confidence in the Lord concerning you, that you are doing and will go on doing the things that we command.


We know that the early church worshiped God on Sundays. This commandment from Jesus to worship God on Sunday was taught and handed down as a tradition by the apostles and you can see that Jesus' commandment is still being followed today in Jesus' local churches throughout the whole world. Jesus founded an apostolic church. His apostolic church has received his authority to teach his gospel until he returns at his second coming. 2 Timothy 2:1-3


Justin Martyr FIRST APOLOGY, circa 153-155 A.D., CHAPTER LXVII -- WEEKLY WORSHIP OF THE CHRISTIANS.

And we afterwards continually remind each other of these things. And the wealthy among us help the needy; and we always keep together; and for all things wherewith we are supplied, we bless the Maker of all through His Son Jesus Christ, and through the Holy Ghost. And on the day called Sunday, all who live in cities or in the country gather together to one place, and the memoirs of the apostles or the writings of the prophets are read, as long as time permits; then, when the reader has ceased, the president verbally instructs, and exhorts to the imitation of these good things. Then we all rise together and pray, and, as we before said, when our prayer is ended, bread and wine and water are brought, and the president in like manner offers prayers and thanksgivings, according to his ability, and the people assent, saying Amen; and there is a distribution to each, and a participation of that over which thanks have been given, and to those who are absent a portion is sent by the deacons. And they who are well to do, and willing, give what each thinks fit; and what is collected is deposited with the president, who succours the orphans and widows and those who, through sickness or any other cause, are in want, and those who are in bonds and the strangers sojourning among us, and in a word takes care of all who are in need. But Sunday is the day on which we all hold our common assembly, because it is the first day on which God, having wrought a change in the darkness and matter, made the world; and Jesus Christ our Saviour on the same day rose from the dead. For He was crucified on the day before that of Saturn (Saturday); and on the day after that of Saturn, which is the day of the Sun, having appeared to His apostles and disciples, He taught them these things,
I'm not sure if you noticed but in 2 Thes there is nothing to indicate the traditions they were speaking of was worshipping on Sunday in lieu of keeping the Sabbath commandment especially since the apostles faithfully kept every Sabbath decades after the cross preaching to both Jews and Gentiles Acts 13:42 Acts 13:44 Acts 18:4 You then went on to try to make your case that Jesus taught to worship on Sunday by going outside of the bible, something we are warned about Isa 8:20. Jesus did not teach we should worship on Sunday instead of keeping the Sabbath commandment. This is something He condemned in principle- keeping our traditions over obeying the commandments of God quoting directly from the Ten Commandments which the Sabbath commandant is part of , He went on to say when one does this they worship Him in vain Mat 15:3-14 There is no scripture that says the Sabbath commandment was abrogated, that Sunday is a new day of worship and we can now keep the Sabbath as a common day instead of the holy day as God commanded, there is no scripture where Sunday is sanctified or blessed by God, God said it is a working day Exo 20:9 and Sunday was the day man assigned to God just as scripture warned Dan 7:25. God claimed His own day in His own Words, the seventh day Sabbath Exo 20:10 Isa 56:13 its always best we obey God the way He asks versus the way we want. Cain and Abel is a good example of this.
 
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The Liturgist

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Thes there is nothing to indicate the traditions they were speaking of was worshipping on Sunday in lieu of keeping the Sabbath commandment especially since the apostles faithfully kept every Sabbath decades

The commandment you speak of, as I have said repeatedly, was kept by the Apostles in the context of the only occasion in which God actually rested in a tomb, that being on Holy Saturday, since before His Incarnation, God the Son was an eternal spirit like the Father existing outside of time.


We can say with certainty that Genesis 1 is referring as much to the Passion of Christ and to our Lord recreating humanity in His image on the Cross, before his luminous resurrection on the First Day, as it is to the initial creation process, since contrary to Adventist doctrines such as the “Investigative Judgement,” Christ exists beyond time, since time was created by Him, as the Word of the Father (Genesis 1:1-3).

Aside from the implication of timelessness conveyed by the fact that Jesus Christ created time, we have more direct proof, in the form of both verses that attested to his timeless existence:

1. 2 Peter 3:8 (NIV):

“But do not forget this one thing, dear friends: With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day.”

This verse indicates that our Lord, God and Savior Jesus Christ experiences time in such a way as to be unbound by human limitations. It uses a metaphor to suggest that what seems like a long period to us is essentially insignificant in the eternal perspective of God.

2. Psalm 90:4 (NIV):

“A thousand years in your sight are like a day that has just gone by, or like a watch in the night.”

This psalm emphasizes the vast difference between human and divine perspectives on time. It poetically describes how, from His eternal vantage point, a millennium is no more significant than a fleeting moment.

This is further demonstrated verses emphasize that Christ our True God does not change, that is to say, that he is immutable, except with regards to the human nature He assumed and united with His divinity without change, confusion, separation and division, in order to glorify it:

• Malachi 3:6 (NIV):
“I the Lord do not change. So you, the descendants of Jacob, are not destroyed.”
This verse clearly states that God’s nature and promises remain constant.
• James 1:17 (NIV):
“Every good and perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of the heavenly lights, who does not change like shifting shadows.”
• Hebrews 13:8 (NIV):
“Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today and forever.”

However, the glorification of the human nature makes us God-like, so that for us, the experience of eternity will not be something dull or repetitive - our deification in salvation being the Scriptural, Apostolic and Patristic doctrine of Theosis*.

What this means for us with regards to the Sabbath, is that the specific commandment in question, “Honor the Sabbath and keep it Holy” is not a requirement to worship or refrain from certain activities on the Sabbath (as we see by our Lord engaging openly in prescribed activities on the Sabbath, and being criticized for it by those Pharisees whose false tradition he condemned in Mark 7:13), but rather, is a requirement to remember the Passion of Christ, for He died on the ninth hour of the sixth day and was buried just before Vespers, the start of the Sabbath, and He spent that Sabbath resting in the Tomb following the Harrowing of Hell, before rising from the dead on Sunday, the first day, which is alluded to in Genesis 1 by “Let there be Light,” which is not just about the creation of the Sun, but about the rising of the Son, for Jesus Christ is the Light of the World, and the sun is an icon of Him. And His resurrection on the First Day also refers to our resurrection into the life of the World to Come, the Eighth Day, where those of us who repent of sin and accept Jesus Christ as our true savior, and in so doing love Him and the other persons of the Trinity, our unoriginate Father and the uncreated Holy Spirit who proceeds eternally from the Father and moves us towards faith in Christ, through whom the invisible Father is made visible to us, and having accepted Christ as our savior, follow his instructions to be baptized and thus grafted onto His Body, the Church (1 Corinthians, entire), and to partake of His Body and Blood in 1 Corinthians 11.

Thus, the way to keep the Sabbath is to remember the passion of Christ on Friday and his repose in the tomb on the Sabbath, and his resurrection, on Sunday, and to partake of His Body and Blood in the Eucharist as the means of that resurrection. Worship on any day of the week does the Sabbath honor, but the Sabbath is specifically honored by the Church commemorating our Lord’s repose at the Vespers for Holy Saturday (on the night of Good Friday, since the Biblical day starts at dawn), and at the Vesperal Divine Liturgy of the Orthodox Church and the Paschal Vigils of the Roman Catholics, Lutherans and Anglicans and other traditional Christians on Holy Saturday, and the Resurrection on Pascha Sunday, and throughout the year the worship of the Church on the night of the Seventh Day for all night Vigils (which historically began, and in some cases still does properly begin, on liturgical Saturday with the prayers of the Ninth Hour and the Eleventh Hour, this being the norm in the Coptic Orthodox Church and in Eastern Orthodox monasteries).

Furthermore, most liturgical churches have some worship on the Sabbath specifically that further commemorates the rest of our Lord, with some having worship on every Saturday morning and every Sunday morning. In general, Saturday tends to be used for two purposes, which are both related: the commemoration of the Theotokos, because our Lord, the creator of everything, was contained in Her womb, and the commemoration of the departed, for they have reposed in the Lord and await the Resurrection of which He was the firstfruits. We pray for their soul, that Christ may keep them in Abraham’s Bosom, on these days, known as Soul Saturdays (since, like the early church, which had a clearly defined eschatology, the traditional churches of today do not accept the innovation of “Soul sleep” since we know from the words of our Lord that the souls of our Lord are either in Heaven or in Hades.

And we know from the Holy Apostle Peter that Christ our True God did descend to Hades, as mentioned by other Apostles as well, such as St. Paul in his epistle to the Ephesians, to proclaim good tidings to the dead, in 1 Peter 4:9, which would be rather difficult to do if they were unconscious.
 
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The Liturgist

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*This doctrine, consistently taught by the Orthodox, and which was expounded by particular clarify by St. Athanasius, and more recently in the Western Church by John Wesley, who translated Theosis as “Entire Sanctification” to avoid the confusion that “Deification” might cause given the unfortunate exposure of Anglophone Christians to the Pagan Greek concept of Apotheosis in isolation (this was less of a problem in Continental Europe, where Martin Luther taught the concept explicitly (which is one reason why, and I think my friends @MarkRohfrietsch and @Ain't Zwinglian will appreciate this comment, I regard Luther as very much a proponent of Orthodoxy, insofar as he taught Theosis and promoted a praxis very much in accord with Orthodoxy, including the partaking of the Eucharist in both kinds, a belief in the Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist, the use of liturgy in both the vernacular and liturgical languages,** and the veneration of the Theotokos, including in Luther’s case the use of a version of the Hail Mary prayer, and Iconodulism, particularly with regards towards the Crucifix, which was in blessed contrast to the massive iconoclastic devastation wrought in Calvinist lands and in most of Great Britain, with much of what survived Archbishop Cranmer (which was quite a lot) being destroyed following the martyrdom of St. Charles I under the tyrannical reign of Oliver Cromwell and his Puritans.***



1. 2 Peter 1:4 (NIV):

"Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature, having escaped the corruption in the world caused by evil desires."



This is one of the clearest Biblical references to Theosis, where believers are said to "participate in the divine nature." It emphasizes transformation and communion with God, which is central to the concept of Theosis.



2. John 10:34-36 (NIV):

"Jesus answered them, 'Is it not written in your Law, "I have said you are gods"? If he called them ‘gods,’ to whom the word of God came—and Scripture cannot be set aside—what about the one whom the Father set apart as his very own and sent into the world?'"



Jesus quotes **Psalm 82:6**, which says, "I said, ‘You are gods; you are all sons of the Most High.’" The implication in this passage suggests that those who receive the word of God partake in a divine status. While not equating humanity with God in essence, it underscores the potential for humans to be divinely elevated through union with Christ.



3. Romans 8:29-30 (NIV):

"For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters. And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified."



Here, Paul speaks about believers being **conformed to the image of Christ** and eventually **glorified**. This glorification is understood in Patristic theology as part of the process of Theosis, where believers are gradually transformed into the likeness of Christ, sharing in His divine life.



4. 2 Corinthians 3:18 (NIV):

"And we all, who with unveiled faces contemplate the Lord’s glory, are being transformed into his image with ever-increasing glory, which comes from the Lord, who is the Spirit."



This verse describes the **progressive transformation** of believers into the image of Christ, which corresponds with the idea of Theosis. It emphasizes that the process is driven by the Holy Spirit and involves sharing in Christ's glory.



5. 1 John 3:2

"Dear friends, now we are children of God, and what we will be has not yet been made known. But we know that when Christ appears, we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is."



This verse reinforces the future aspect of Theosis: believers will be **like Christ** when He returns. It points to the ultimate goal of the Christian life as a full transformation into Christ's image, including the sharing of His divine life.



6. Colossians 3:3-4 (NIV):

"For you died, and your life is now hidden with Christ in God. When Christ, who is your life, appears, then you also will appear with him in glory."



This speaks of the believer’s life being **hidden in Christ** and the eventual manifestation of this life "in glory." It suggests that the life of Christ and the life of the believer are intertwined, and that believers will one day share in His glory, which is a key component of Theosis.



7. Psalm 82:6 (NIV):

"I said, ‘You are gods; you are all sons of the Most High.’"



This verse, which Jesus refers to in John 10:34, has been interpreted by Church Fathers and Orthodox theologians as referring to the divine potential and status given to humanity by God. It is not understood in an absolute sense (humans becoming ontologically identical to God), but rather in terms of participating in God's life and glory.



8. Ephesians 4:13 (NIV):

"Until we all reach unity in the faith and in the knowledge of the Son of God and become mature, attaining to the whole measure of the fullness of Christ."



This passage reflects the idea that believers are called to grow into full **maturity in Christ**, which can be seen as part of the process of Theosis, where Christians gradually grow to reflect Christ's fullness and divine nature.

These verses collectively support the doctrine of Theosis by emphasizing the transformation of believers into the image of Christ, their participation in the divine nature, and the ultimate glorification they will share with Christ. This process is not about becoming God by nature, but rather becoming fully united with God through grace, reflecting His divine life, holiness, and love.



Thus we can see that Theosis is incontrovertibly scriptural, and not, as some would allege, a Patristic innovation (which is an oxymoron - departures from the Gospel and the Apostolic Tradition which occurred during the Patristic era were immediately labelled as heresies and subject to anathema, and it was to contain and control such innovations that the Ecumenical Synods were held). Indeed, the fact Martin Luther taught the doctrine, as did, to some extent, John Calvin, in addition to John Wesley, demonstrates its scriptural incontrovertibility, given the care with which these men used scripture to test their dogmatic theology and to correct for Scholastic misunderstandings which had crept into the Western kergyma (teaching of the faith).



**Ergo, Luther celebrated the Mass in both Latin and German, and Latin remained a first-class liturgical language in Lutheranism into the early 19th century, although unfortunately this is not presently the case, resulting in an under-utilization of Latin-language Lutheran church music by composers such as JS Bach and his sons and Franz Schubert (who did six Latin settings of the Mass and one German setting).



*** This episode, along with the Salem Witch Trials, makes me ashamed of my Congregationalist background, insofar as Congregationalism represented a reform of Puritanism, although Congregationalism was really a moderation of Puritanism, a correction in which the laity, following a well-deserved tongue lashing by the great preacher Jonathan Edwards (who, while not as a good a preacher as St. John Chrysostom, was still able to move people to tears and cause Anglophone North Americans across the colonies that would soon become the United States and Canada to embark on a journey of repentence from the sinful excesses both of Puritanism, and of the period of 1670-1730 in the English speaking world more generally). Also as a Congregationalist I have consistently fought to make Congregationalism more Orthodox, both with my initial ministry in the UCC and with my later mission parishes, with a view towards these churches eventually becoming Orthodox (Congregationalism is the only form of church polity aside from the Episcopal polity with strong scriptural support, albeit not following the specific model used by Congregationalists, but rather, insofar as the Bishop was the pastor of a single church in each city initially, which would, as that church expanded, become his cathedral, and with new parish churches being formed, headed up by presbyters.
 
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SabbathBlessings

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The commandment you speak of, as I have said repeatedly, was kept by the Apostles in the context of the only occasion in which God actually rested in a tomb, that being on Holy Saturday, since before His Incarnation, God the Son was an eternal spirit like the Father existing outside of time.


We can say with certainty that Genesis 1 is referring as much to the Passion of Christ and to our Lord recreating humanity in His image on the Cross, before his luminous resurrection on the First Day, as it is to the initial creation process, since contrary to Adventist doctrines such as the “Investigative Judgement,” Christ exists beyond time, since time was created by Him, as the Word of the Father (Genesis 1:1-3).

Aside from the implication of timelessness conveyed by the fact that Jesus Christ created time, we have more direct proof, in the form of both verses that attested to his timeless existence:

1. 2 Peter 3:8 (NIV):

“But do not forget this one thing, dear friends: With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day.”

This verse indicates that our Lord, God and Savior Jesus Christ experiences time in such a way as to be unbound by human limitations. It uses a metaphor to suggest that what seems like a long period to us is essentially insignificant in the eternal perspective of God.

2. Psalm 90:4 (NIV):

“A thousand years in your sight are like a day that has just gone by, or like a watch in the night.”

This psalm emphasizes the vast difference between human and divine perspectives on time. It poetically describes how, from His eternal vantage point, a millennium is no more significant than a fleeting moment.

This is further demonstrated verses emphasize that Christ our True God does not change, that is to say, that he is immutable, except with regards to the human nature He assumed and united with His divinity without change, confusion, separation and division, in order to glorify it:

• Malachi 3:6 (NIV):
“I the Lord do not change. So you, the descendants of Jacob, are not destroyed.”
This verse clearly states that God’s nature and promises remain constant.
• James 1:17 (NIV):
“Every good and perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of the heavenly lights, who does not change like shifting shadows.”
• Hebrews 13:8 (NIV):
“Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today and forever.”

However, the glorification of the human nature makes us God-like, so that for us, the experience of eternity will not be something dull or repetitive - our deification in salvation being the Scriptural, Apostolic and Patristic doctrine of Theosis*.

What this means for us with regards to the Sabbath, is that the specific commandment in question, “Honor the Sabbath and keep it Holy” is not a requirement to worship or refrain from certain activities on the Sabbath (as we see by our Lord engaging openly in prescribed activities on the Sabbath, and being criticized for it by those Pharisees whose false tradition he condemned in Mark 7:13), but rather, is a requirement to remember the Passion of Christ, for He died on the ninth hour of the sixth day and was buried just before Vespers, the start of the Sabbath, and He spent that Sabbath resting in the Tomb following the Harrowing of Hell, before rising from the dead on Sunday, the first day, which is alluded to in Genesis 1 by “Let there be Light,” which is not just about the creation of the Sun, but about the rising of the Son, for Jesus Christ is the Light of the World, and the sun is an icon of Him. And His resurrection on the First Day also refers to our resurrection into the life of the World to Come, the Eighth Day, where those of us who repent of sin and accept Jesus Christ as our true savior, and in so doing love Him and the other persons of the Trinity, our unoriginate Father and the uncreated Holy Spirit who proceeds eternally from the Father and moves us towards faith in Christ, through whom the invisible Father is made visible to us, and having accepted Christ as our savior, follow his instructions to be baptized and thus grafted onto His Body, the Church (1 Corinthians, entire), and to partake of His Body and Blood in 1 Corinthians 11.

Thus, the way to keep the Sabbath is to remember the passion of Christ on Friday and his repose in the tomb on the Sabbath, and his resurrection, on Sunday, and to partake of His Body and Blood in the Eucharist as the means of that resurrection. Worship on any day of the week does the Sabbath honor, but the Sabbath is specifically honored by the Church commemorating our Lord’s repose at the Vespers for Holy Saturday (on the night of Good Friday, since the Biblical day starts at dawn), and at the Vesperal Divine Liturgy of the Orthodox Church and the Paschal Vigils of the Roman Catholics, Lutherans and Anglicans and other traditional Christians on Holy Saturday, and the Resurrection on Pascha Sunday, and throughout the year the worship of the Church on the night of the Seventh Day for all night Vigils (which historically began, and in some cases still does properly begin, on liturgical Saturday with the prayers of the Ninth Hour and the Eleventh Hour, this being the norm in the Coptic Orthodox Church and in Eastern Orthodox monasteries).

Furthermore, most liturgical churches have some worship on the Sabbath specifically that further commemorates the rest of our Lord, with some having worship on every Saturday morning and every Sunday morning. In general, Saturday tends to be used for two purposes, which are both related: the commemoration of the Theotokos, because our Lord, the creator of everything, was contained in Her womb, and the commemoration of the departed, for they have reposed in the Lord and await the Resurrection of which He was the firstfruits. We pray for their soul, that Christ may keep them in Abraham’s Bosom, on these days, known as Soul Saturdays (since, like the early church, which had a clearly defined eschatology, the traditional churches of today do not accept the innovation of “Soul sleep” since we know from the words of our Lord that the souls of our Lord are either in Heaven or in Hades.

And we know from the Holy Apostle Peter that Christ our True God did descend to Hades, as mentioned by other Apostles as well, such as St. Paul in his epistle to the Ephesians, to proclaim good tidings to the dead, in 1 Peter 4:9, which would be rather difficult to do if they were unconscious.
Sorry, I am going to stick with what He said Exo 20:8-11 He is the way and will only lead us back on the narrow path. Many have creative ideas when it comes to keeping (mainly not keeping) the Sabbath, but its just best to put our faith and trust in God and obey Him the way He said and was observed by Jesus and the apostles. He said He would not edit His Words Psa 89:34 Mat 5:18 and who are we to try to speak for God. God told us His day in His own Words- the seventh day is the Sabbath Exo 20:10 My holy day, the holy day of the Lord thus saith the Lord Isa 58:13. Any other teaching is essentially arguing with God.
 
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SabbathBlessings

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I do not understand why Catholics try to make a biblical argument that the Sabbath was changed in scripture when its not a teaching of the Catholic church.

They claim they changed the Sabbath based on their authority which is above the bible. Scripture says whoever we obey is who we serve Rom 6:16 I say we serve Christ and obey Him the way He asks Exo 20:8-11 Isa 56:1-6

Some direct quotes....

It is well to remind the Presbyterians, Baptists, Methodists, and all other Christians, that the Bible does not support them anywhere in their observance of Sunday. Sunday is an institution of the Roman Catholic Church, and those who observe the day observe a commandment of the Catholic Church.
—Priest Brady, in an address, reported in the Elizabeth, NJ ‘News’ on March 18, 1903.

Q. Have you any other way of proving that the Church has power to institute festivals of precept?
A. Had she not such power, she could not have done that in which all modern religionists agree with her; —she could not have substituted the observance of Sunday the first day of the week, for the observance of Saturday the seventh day, a change for which there is no Scriptural authority.
—Rev. Stephen Keenan, A Doctrinal Catechism; New York in 1857, page 174

Of course the Catholic Church claims that the change was her act. And the act is a mark of her ecclesiastical power and authority in religious matters.
—C. F. Thomas, Chancellor of Cardinal Gibbons, in answer to a letter regarding the change of the Sabbath, November 11, 1895.

Deny the authority of the Church and you have no adequate or reasonable explanation or justification for the substitution of Sunday for Saturday in the Third - Protestant Fourth - Commandment of God... The Church is above the Bible, and this transference of Sabbath observance is proof of that fact.'
—Catholic Record, September 1, 1923.

No wonder why God is calling His people who are in all churches out of their false teachings Rev 18:4 its best to obey God the way He said because He is our Creator and we are to be His creation and servants.
 
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The Liturgist

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Sorry, I am going to stick with what He said Exo 20:8-11 He is the way and will only lead us back on the narrow path. He said He would not edit His Words Psa 89:34 Mat 5:18 and who are we to try to speak for God.

The accusation that the early church modified the Old Testament is scurilous. The Early Church did compile the New Testament however - the Apostles wrote the books, but keeping track of them through the subsequent centuries was a challenge due to the publication of numerous spurious epistles by heretical sects, so the 27 book New Testament that Adventists use was based on the work of fourth century church fathers, in particular St. Athanasius, who is the only Patristic figure I referred to specifically.

I also note you aren’t quoting the Holy Apostle Paul. Sure you might say he is an Apostle, but the fact you are quoting a passage from Exodus that if you had read St. Paul, in the context of the New Testament, and then had re-read in the context of the Ending of Luke, and the other Gospel narratives, you would realize was misinterpreted by the Pharisees and Sadducees of the late Second Temple Period, and our Lord restored a correct understanding to these verses.

Many have creative ideas when it comes to keeping (mainly not keeping) the Sabbath, but its just best to put our faith and trust in God and obey Him the way He said and was observed by Jesus and the apostles.

I agree, which is why I do what Scripture actually says to do. I see no reason why anyone should follow the doctrines of 19th century denominations where those doctrines lack scriptural and Patristic support.
 
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SabbathBlessings

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The accusation that the early church modified the Old Testament is scurilous. The Early Church did compile the New Testament however - the Apostles wrote the books, but keeping track of them through the subsequent centuries was a challenge due to the publication of numerous spurious epistles by heretical sects, so the 27 book New Testament that Adventists use was based on the work of fourth century church fathers, in particular St. Athanasius, who is the only Patristic figure I referred to specifically.

I also note you aren’t quoting the Holy Apostle Paul. Sure you might say he is an Apostle, but the fact you are quoting a passage from Exodus that if you had read St. Paul, in the context of the New Testament, and then had re-read in the context of the Ending of Luke, and the other Gospel narratives, you would realize was misinterpreted by the Pharisees and Sadducees of the late Second Temple Period, and our Lord restored a correct understanding to these verses.



I agree, which is why I do what Scripture actually says to do. I see no reason why anyone should follow the doctrines of 19th century denominations where those doctrines lack scriptural and Patristic support.
God said the Sabbath would be changed Dan 7:25 and the RCC takes credit for this change and its well documented. You seem to be disagreeing with the RCC and what the scripture states.

The Sabbath didn't start in the 19th century, it started at Creation thus saith the Lord Exo 20:11 and its a commandment of God thus saith the Lord Exo 20:8-11 and God's faithful keep God's commandments Rev 14:12 the way He said because He is God and He has all Authority and man will never be above God to change anything that proceeds out of His mouth we are to live by.

We can agree to disagree and all gets sorted out soon enough.
 
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I do not understand why Catholics try to make a biblical argument that the Sabbath was changed in scripture when its not a teaching of the Catholic church.

They claim they changed the Sabbath based on their authority which is above the bible. Scripture says whoever we obey is who we serve Rom 6:16

Some direct quotes....

It is well to remind the Presbyterians, Baptists, Methodists, and all other Christians, that the Bible does not support them anywhere in their observance of Sunday. Sunday is an institution of the Roman Catholic Church, and those who observe the day observe a commandment of the Catholic Church.
—Priest Brady, in an address, reported in the Elizabeth, NJ ‘News’ on March 18, 1903.

Q. Have you any other way of proving that the Church has power to institute festivals of precept?
A. Had she not such power, she could not have done that in which all modern religionists agree with her; —she could not have substituted the observance of Sunday the first day of the week, for the observance of Saturday the seventh day, a change for which there is no Scriptural authority.
—Rev. Stephen Keenan, A Doctrinal Catechism; New York in 1857, page 174

Of course the Catholic Church claims that the change was her act. And the act is a mark of her ecclesiastical power and authority in religious matters.
—C. F. Thomas, Chancellor of Cardinal Gibbons, in answer to a letter regarding the change of the Sabbath, November 11, 1895.

Why write this unprovoked attack against the Roman Catholic Church and accusing them of contradicting their doctrine, when I am not a Roman Catholic, I have never been a Roman Catholic, and when it has nothing to do with the solid scriptural reply i just provided with you?

I have seen this pattern repeatedly in debates with Adventists, where someone provides a serious, complex scriptural argument that contradicts one or more Adventist doctrines, and rather than responding to that doctrine, the Adventist will make a red herring attack on the Roman Catholic church, even if the person they are debating with is not Roman Catholic and is a part of a denomination which has never been a part of the Roman Catholic Church but which rather historically was persecuted by them.

I find this pattern of behavior to be concerning, for three reasons: firstly, it attests to a deep-seated contempt for the Roman Catholic Church that is also evident in some writings of Ellen G White, for example, The Great Controversy, secondly, it appears to be an attempt at redirecting the conversation and building support among Protestants by appealing to their discomfort with the Roman church, while also causing any Roman Catholics who might be present in the debate to challenge that argument rather than the topic at hand, and what is more, since changing the topic (sometimes completely, in other cases, such as this one, subtly, since you are still responding to the issue of the Sabbath but your response is not germane to what I wrote, even remotely) is so commonly encountered, it seems to me that this apologetics technique must be being shared by the small minority of Adventists who actively debate non-Sabbatarians.

I would note here the majority of Adventists do not debate us or otherwise engage with us negatively; it interests me to note that the majority of Adventist members seldom post outside of the Adventist subforum, and when they do, they are generally quite friendly, or will post on issues of shared concern in a spirit of evangelical fellowship. It is only a minority of Adventists who feel that they have something to gain by debating other Christians over the Internet, and I would say this is a quixotic effort, since you cannot convert someone by arguing the faith with them.

But it is reasonable for traditional Christians to respond, because otherwise these challenges against the doctrines of the liturgical churches of Patristic heritage, such as the Orthodox, Lutherans, Anglicans, etc, will exist on the Internet without any contradictory perspective being offered.

So my suggestion is that the minority of Adventists who do this stop doing it - since as Christians, you presumably do not believe that only Sabbatarian Christians have a hope of salvation, so debating with other Christians is pointless, and it would be better to convert Jews or Muslims or adherents of Pagan religions such as Hinduism, Buddhism, Taoism, etc, to Christianity, than to merely move people between denominations, and furthermore, when traditional Christians are challenged in this way, we have a moral obligation to respond to ensure that the traditional doctrine of the early church is not contradicted, and thus all this does is create resentment and interfere with ecumenical cooperation between Adventists and other Christians. Which in turn interferes with the work of your denomination, which, since the 1950s, has made a concerted effort to engage ecumenically with other Christians and be recognized as a part of the larger Christian community. Being a part of the larger community does not mean giving up your own doctrines, but it should mean being more respectful of the history and traditions of the non-Sabbatarian majority of churches, including the Roman Catholic Church.
 
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