Did God forget Luke 14:28-32?

[Der Alte]

I gave just pertinent info I don’t know how to cut and paste like you do . Most of the time you put the same thing over and over and never have a conversation with me , more like a lecture than a discussion.

1. I put the same thing because it never gets properly addressed.
2. If you have access to the "pertinent info" you should have the same access to the complete entry. It seems you are posting something quoted by a second party from the lexicon entry.
3. To copy paste I highlight what I want to copy, right click, select copy.

 

[Der Alte]

Sorry but I don’t care about what scholars say unless they go back to the original Greek of 2000 years ago and test their meanings against how words were used back then not from 1500 years as most of the modern scholars seem to do. ...

One should not criticize others for the alleged "shortcomings" of what they claim others omit. Where have you cited anything "that go[es] back to the original Greek of 2000 years ago and test their meanings against how words were used back then not from 1500 years as most of the modern scholars seem to do. ..."? Just for grins here are two vss. which do exactly that. Jesus speaking.

John 3:15-16​

(15) That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal [aionios] life.​

(16) For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting [aionios] life.​

In both these vss. Jesus parallels "should not perish" with "aionios life." "Should not perish" sounds like "eternal life"
to me.
8 more similar vss. spoken by Jesus Luke 1:33, John 6:58, John 10:28, John 5:24, John 3:36, John 4:14, John 6:27, John 8:51
And OBTW aionios is an adjective and age(s) is a noun.
FYI these verses are translated the same in the Eastern Greek Orthodox Bible. Their language has been Greek since the church was founded. I'm pretty sure that was 2000 years ago.

EOB Philp 2:10 so that at the Name of Jesus every knee should bow in heaven, on earth, and under the earth; 11 and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.​

 

[BelieveItOarKnot]

So did some of the early church fathers so I am in good company, I do know that not all agreed with it just like today. I think from what I have experienced and know about the Father that this is in line with his heart.

I'm good with imaginations of scriptural claims as long as they're in line with same.

Satanic salvation is never proclaimed in the scriptures and in fact the opposite is the case, specifically toward them

I'd suggest an anti heaven (the lake of fire) is an appropriate place for antiChrist spirits.

Problem solved

 

[Jeff Saunders]

I'm good with imaginations of scriptural claims as long as they're in line with same.

Satanic salvation is never proclaimed in the scriptures and in fact the opposite is the case, specifically toward them

I'd suggest an anti heaven (the lake of fire) is an appropriate place for antiChrist spirits.

Problem solved

Yes I agree that the Lake Of Fire is the appropriate place for all those who do or did not follow Jesus. But I also believe that the Lake Of Fire is Gods refinery, his live burns away all that is not of himself and he will purge out the the dross from all His living creatures, that’s humanity and the fallen spirits as well. That is why Phil 2:10-11 says “ So that at the name of Jesus every knee- of heavenly and earthly and subterranean should bend and every tongue gladly confess that Jesus is Lord “ Who do you think the heavenly is talking about? Or the subterranean I think God has covered all his creation in this proclamation. Why do you see it differently?

 

[Der Alte]

Yes I agree that the Lake Of Fire is the appropriate place for all those who do or did not follow Jesus. But I also believe that the Lake Of Fire is Gods refinery, his live burns away all that is not of himself and he will purge out the the dross from all His living creatures, that’s humanity and the fallen spirits as well. That is why Phil 2:10-11 says “ So that at the name of Jesus every knee- of heavenly and earthly and subterranean should bend and every tongue gladly confess that Jesus is Lord “ Who do you think the heavenly is talking about? Or the subterranean I think God has covered all his creation in this proclamation. Why do you see it differently?

Nothing in scripture says in any way that the lake of fire [LOF] is God's refinery. Let us for the sake of discussion say that is true, sinners, are thrown into the LOF and refined. That is going to be a very painful process . Sinners who have experienced it are not going to be filled with love for whomever placed them there.
See my post #49 this thread full definition of exomologeo. There ain't no gladly in it anywhere. Unless their work is shown 2 scholars supposedly saying exomologeo means gladly confessing is meaningless. Without such information it is nothing but the scholars' unsupported opinion.

 

[Jeff Saunders]

Nothing in scripture says in any way that the lake of fire [LOF] is God's refinery. Let us for the sake of discussion say that is true, sinners, are thrown into the LOF and refined. That is going to be a very painful process . Sinners who have experienced it are not going to be filled with love for whomever placed them there.
See my post #49 this thread full definition of exomologeo. There ain't no gladly in it anywhere. Unless their work is shown 2 scholars supposedly saying exomologeo means gladly confessing is meaningless. Without such information it is nothing but the scholars' unsupported opinion.

You tell me all the time that I have unsupported arguments show me your sources for the idea that “ sinners who have experienced it are no going to be filled with love for whomever placed them there” I think it will be a painfully awful process but the end result will be joyfully good.

 

[Der Alte]

You tell me all the time that I have unsupported arguments show me your sources for the idea that “ sinners who have experienced it are no going to be filled with love for whomever placed them there” I think it will be a painfully awful process but the end result will be joyfully good.

Saying what I did I'm not quoting anyone. I am giving my opinion which does not require a citation. In 1960 in the Army we were out in the field playing war. I tried to ignite a small training flare. When I pulled the igniting cord instead of remaining in the container as it was supposed to the flare material pulled out on the igniter cord, flipped around and stuck to the back of my hand. I suffered a 3rd degree burn to the back of my hand. The flesh was charred. It was extremely painful. I assume that you have never had a serious burn so you must think it is something pleasant. IMO Someone who has experienced that over their entire body will not be feeling warm fuzzies toward whomever caused it, even if they deserved it.

Mat_13:42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.​

Mat_13:50 And shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.​

Luke 16:24​

(24) And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.​

Revelation 14:10​

(10) The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:​

 

[Jeff Saunders]

Saying what I did I'm not quoting anyone. I am giving my opinion which does not require a citation. In 1960 in the Army we were out in the field playing war. I tried to ignite a small training flare. When I pulled the igniting cord instead of remaining in the container as it was supposed to the flare material pulled out on the igniter cord, flipped around and stuck to the back of my hand. I suffered a 3rd degree burn to the back of my hand. The flesh was charred. It was extremely painful. I assume that you have never had a serious burn so you must think it is something pleasant. IMO Someone who has experienced that over their entire body will not be feeling warm fuzzies toward whomever caused it, even if they deserved it.

Mat_13:42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.​

Mat_13:50 And shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.​

Luke 16:24​

(24) And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.​

Revelation 14:10​

(10) The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:​

No I see it totally different. In 1983 I was hit by a car going 65 miles an hour and had my right leg from the knee down totally smashed, they tried saving it for two weeks, I begged them to end my life the pain was unbearable, I prayed to God to take me home but that was not Gods plan . They would wrap wet gauze on what was left of my leg and then tare it off 2 times a day but my bone died and if they didn’t cut my leg off I could die also. I did not hate the Doctors for what I went through I knew that they were trying to save my life. Once my leg was gone most of the pain was gone and I was set free , I have had a great life and am glad for the experience I went through because I had an amazing growth time in my faith because of what I went through. I see the LOF much the same , the only people who are there have sin that needs to be removed, and when the GREAT PHYSICIAN is done stripping away all that is between them and Him they will rejoice and gladly, joyfully surrender to Jesus and bend the knee and confess Jesus is Lord. Malachi 3:2 “ But who can endure the day of his coming, and who can stand when he appears? For he is like a refiners fire and like a fullers soap.” This is the God I serve / Lamentations 3:31-33 “ For the Lord will not reject us forever , Though he causes grief, he then has compassion on us according to the abundance of his loyal king, for he is not predisposed to afflict or grieve people. / Hosea 5:15 Then I will return again to my lair until they have suffered their punishment. Then they will seek me; in their distress they will earnestly seek me. / Isa 48:10 Refined, purified in the furnace of misery. I think Hosea would disagree with you on this point.

 

[Der Alte]

No I see it totally different. In 1983 I was hit by a car going 65 miles an hour and had my right leg from the knee down totally smashed, they tried saving it for two weeks, I begged them to end my life the pain was unbearable, I prayed to God to take me home but that was not Gods plan . They would wrap wet gauze on what was left of my leg and then tare it off 2 times a day but my bone died and if they didn’t cut my leg off I could die also. I did not hate the Doctors for what I went through I knew that they were trying to save my life. Once my leg was gone most of the pain was gone and I was set free , I have had a great life and am glad for the experience I went through because I had an amazing growth time in my faith because of what I went through.

Your experience was not caused by God to punish you for sins. In my humble opinion the above has very little to no relevance to the section below.

I see the LOF much the same , the only people who are there have sin that needs to be removed, and when the GREAT PHYSICIAN is done stripping away all that is between them and Him they will rejoice and gladly, joyfully surrender to Jesus and bend the knee and confess Jesus is Lord. Malachi 3:2 “ But who can endure the day of his coming, and who can stand when he appears? For he is like a refiners fire and like a fullers soap.” This is the God I serve / Lamentations 3:31-33 “ For the Lord will not reject us forever , Though he causes grief, he then has compassion on us according to the abundance of his loyal king, for he is not predisposed to afflict or grieve people. / Hosea 5:15 Then I will return again to my lair until they have suffered their punishment. Then they will seek me; in their distress they will earnestly seek me. / Isa 48:10 Refined, purified in the furnace of misery. I think Hosea would disagree with you on this point.

The usual grouping of out-of-context proof texts. When one groups the "right" vss. together they can make them say almost anything they want to. Now let us look at Isaiah 48:10 with a little context.

Isaiah 48:9-12​

(9) For my name's sake will I defer mine anger, and for my praise will I refrain for thee, [Israel vs. 12] that I cut thee not off.​

(10) Behold, I have refined thee, but not with silver; I have chosen thee in the furnace of affliction.[figurative]​

(11) For mine own sake, even for mine own sake, will I do it: for how should my name be polluted? and I will not give my glory unto another.​

(12) Hearken unto me, O Jacob and Israel, my called; I am he; I am the first, I also am the last.​

This is not the final judgement with actual fire but some type of affliction which God placed on them in this life for their disobedience.

Isa 48:4 Because I knew that thou art obstinate, and thy neck is an iron sinew, and thy brow brass;​

Isaiah 48:16 Come ye near unto me, hear ye this; I have not spoken in secret from the beginning; from the time that it was, there am I: and now the Lord GOD, and his Spirit, hath sent me.​

I will expect a little more honesty in any further posts.

 

[Jeff Saunders]

Your experience was not caused by God to punish you for sins. In my humble opinion the above has very little to no relevance to the section below.

The usual grouping of out-of-context proof texts. When one groups the "right" vss. together they can make them say almost anything they want to. Now let us look at Isaiah 48:10 with a little context.

Isaiah 48:9-12​

(9) For my name's sake will I defer mine anger, and for my praise will I refrain for thee, [Israel vs. 12] that I cut thee not off.​

(10) Behold, I have refined thee, but not with silver; I have chosen thee in the furnace of affliction.[figurative]​

(11) For mine own sake, even for mine own sake, will I do it: for how should my name be polluted? and I will not give my glory unto another.​

(12) Hearken unto me, O Jacob and Israel, my called; I am he; I am the first, I also am the last.​

This is not the final judgement with actual fire but some type of affliction which God placed on them in this life for their disobedience.

Isa 48:4 Because I knew that thou art obstinate, and thy neck is an iron sinew, and thy brow brass;​

Isaiah 48:16 Come ye near unto me, hear ye this; I have not spoken in secret from the beginning; from the time that it was, there am I: and now the Lord GOD, and his Spirit, hath sent me.​

I will expect a little more honesty in any further posts.

It’s a good thing that the New Testament writers didn’t have to abide by your standards on context , look at Deut 21:22-23 and tell me that the context of that verse is the same as Gal 3:13 .I think other NT writers also had some OT quotes that I do not see as the same context. So I am in good company.

 

[Jeff Saunders]

Your experience was not caused by God to punish you for sins. In my humble opinion the above has very little to no relevance to the section below.

The usual grouping of out-of-context proof texts. When one groups the "right" vss. together they can make them say almost anything they want to. Now let us look at Isaiah 48:10 with a little context.

Isaiah 48:9-12​

(9) For my name's sake will I defer mine anger, and for my praise will I refrain for thee, [Israel vs. 12] that I cut thee not off.​

(10) Behold, I have refined thee, but not with silver; I have chosen thee in the furnace of affliction.[figurative]​

(11) For mine own sake, even for mine own sake, will I do it: for how should my name be polluted? and I will not give my glory unto another.​

(12) Hearken unto me, O Jacob and Israel, my called; I am he; I am the first, I also am the last.​

This is not the final judgement with actual fire but some type of affliction which God placed on them in this life for their disobedience.

Isa 48:4 Because I knew that thou art obstinate, and thy neck is an iron sinew, and thy brow brass;​

Isaiah 48:16 Come ye near unto me, hear ye this; I have not spoken in secret from the beginning; from the time that it was, there am I: and now the Lord GOD, and his Spirit, hath sent me.​

I will expect a little more honesty in any further posts.

Ok you don’t think the context of the Isaiah is to your liking I get that , but what about all the other verses that you conveniently did not put in your post?

 

[Der Alte]

Ok you don’t think the context of the Isaiah is to your liking I get that , but what about all the other verses that you conveniently did not put in your post?

Such as?

 

[Jeff Saunders]

Such as?

Hosea- Lamentations- Malachi the other verses I gave you

 

[Der Alte]

Hosea- Lamentations- Malachi the other verses I gave you

You tell me how you think they apply to your specific circumstances and I'll see if I agree or not.

 

[BelieveItOarKnot]

Yes I agree that the Lake Of Fire is the appropriate place for all those who do or did not follow Jesus. But I also believe that the Lake Of Fire is Gods refinery, his live burns away all that is not of himself and he will purge out the the dross from all His living creatures, that’s humanity and the fallen spirits as well. That is why Phil 2:10-11 says “ So that at the name of Jesus every knee- of heavenly and earthly and subterranean should bend and every tongue gladly confess that Jesus is Lord “ Who do you think the heavenly is talking about? Or the subterranean I think God has covered all his creation in this proclamation. Why do you see it differently?

Studied this subject quite a few years ago. A brief would be as follows:

Nothing going into the infamous LoF is shown coming out, being converted or cleansed.
Scripture does not present a single time that devils are converted or made into God's children
There are several different types of fire in the scriptures. Some destroy, some don't. I can think of 7+ different instances of fire all with different purposes. It's not a one size fits all study.
The fire for the devil and his messengers is prepared (Matt. 25) which eliminates that fire being some form of God

I see no need whatsoever to promote Satanic salvation. To me that is lunacy, and totally unsupported by scripture and is a direct opposition of many scriptures

We do have an enemy/resistor. That resistor is built into our own flesh and mind. That resistor was made by God to do it's thing which is to lie, to steal to kill and to destroy.

When God is finished using it it will be put away permanently

In the mean time, in this present life most people do not and won't perceive the difference between themselves as God's children and the evil/tempter that we are all bound with internally. And that by God's Own design.

God can turn anyone on to this matter in a nanosecond, but obviously chooses not to.

 

[Jeff Saunders]

Such as?

Go back to #88 Mal 3:2

Studied this subject quite a few years ago. A brief would be as follows:

Nothing going into the infamous LoF is shown coming out, being converted or cleansed.
Scripture does not present a single time that devils are converted or made into God's children
There are several different types of fire in the scriptures. Some destroy, some don't. I can think of 7+ different instances of fire all with different purposes. It's not a one size fits all study.
The fire for the devil and his messengers is prepared (Matt. 25) which eliminates that fire being some form of God

I see no need whatsoever to promote Satanic salvation. To me that is lunacy, and totally unsupported by scripture and is a direct opposition of many scriptures

We do have an enemy/resistor. That resistor is built into our own flesh and mind. That resistor was made by God to do it's thing which is to lie, to steal to kill and to destroy.

When God is finished using it it will be put away permanently

In the mean time, in this present life most people do not and won't perceive the difference between themselves as God's children and the evil/tempter that we are all bound with internally. And that by God's Own design.

God can turn anyone on to this matter in a nanosecond, but obviously chooses not to.

So do you not see the fallen angels as part of the cosmos that God created? because I do and 2Cor 5: So God was in the Anointed reconciling the cosmos to himself. Also Phil 2:10-11 Every knee will bow of those in heaven, and those on earth, and those under the earth, I think that satan and all of Gods creation is included

 

[Der Alte]

Go back to #88 Mal 3:2

So do you not see the fallen angels as part of the cosmos that God created? because I do and 2Cor 5: So God was in the Anointed reconciling the cosmos to himself. Also Phil 2:10-11 Every knee will bow of those in heaven, and those on earth, and those under the earth, I think that satan and all of Gods creation is included

I don't see how "fallen angels" has any relevance. Yes, every knee will bow and every tongue will confess. BUT not all of those bowing and confessing will be doing so gladly.

Isa_45:23 I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear.​

Rom 14:11 For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.​

Php_2:10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;​

Mat_22:44 The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool.​

Mar_12:36 For David himself said by the Holy Ghost, The LORD said to my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool.​

Luk_20:43 Till I make thine enemies thy footstool.​

Act_2:35 Until I make thy foes thy footstool.​

Heb_1:13 But to which of the angels said he at any time, Sit on my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool?​

Heb_10:13 From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool.​

Joshua the Old Testament namesake of Jesus did this very thing.

Joshua 10:22-25​

(22) Then said Joshua, Open the mouth of the cave, and bring out those five kings unto me out of the cave.​

(23) And they did so, and brought forth those five kings unto him out of the cave, the king of Jerusalem, the king of Hebron, the king of Jarmuth, the king of Lachish, and the king of Eglon.​

(24) And it came to pass, when they brought out those kings unto Joshua, that Joshua called for all the men of Israel, and said unto the captains of the men of war which went with him, Come near, put your feet upon the necks of these kings. And they came near, and put their feet upon the necks of them.​

(25) And Joshua said unto them, Fear not, nor be dismayed, be strong and of good courage: for thus shall the LORD do to all your enemies against whom ye fight.​

Joshua's enemies became his footstool but they did not become faithful obedient servants.

Joshua 10:26​

(26) And afterward Joshua smote them, and slew them, and hanged them on five trees: and they were hanging upon the trees until the evening.​

 

[BelieveItOarKnot]

Go back to #88 Mal 3:2

So do you not see the fallen angels as part of the cosmos that God created? because I do and 2Cor 5: So God was in the Anointed reconciling the cosmos to himself. Also Phil 2:10-11 Every knee will bow of those in heaven, and those on earth, and those under the earth, I think that satan and all of Gods creation is included

The Satan and devils as "fallen HOLY angels" is a myth that doesn't exist in the scriptures.

Satan (or his own) is never once stated as "holy" in the Bible.

Jesus said Satan was a liar and a murderer from the beginning. John 8:44. As are his children.

And these characters, these antiChrist spirit enemies of Christ will be put in the LoF at their termination of uses and won't be getting out, other than by the deceived imaginations and add on's of some universalist sects

 

[David Lamb]

The Satan and devils as "fallen HOLY angels" is a myth that doesn't exist in the scriptures.

Satan (or his own) is never once stated as "holy" in the Bible.

Jesus said Satan was a liar and a murderer from the beginning. John 8:44. As are his children.

And these characters, these antiChrist spirit enemies of Christ will be put in the LoF at their termination of uses and won't be getting out, other than by the deceived imaginations and add on's of some universalist sects

How does that fit with God seeing all that He had created and saying it was "very good?:

“Then God saw everything that He had made, and indeed [it was] very good. So the evening and the morning were the sixth day.” (Ge 1:31 NKJV)

 

[BelieveItOarKnot]

How does that fit with God seeing all that He had created and saying it was "very good?:

There's a clear and over riding principle involved with such statements from God.

God is so powerful He can make good come of evil. So does the existence of evil bother God? Nope. Hard thing to keep in mind for us when directly experiencing evil.

But the notions of God not being able to be in the presence of sinners or not able to create and use evil is utter nonsense when keeping His Greatness in the forefront.

IF for example God is Great enough to use the powers of evil and death to make not only good, but perfect come about, THEN He is a Worthy God indeed. And I expect this will be proved out in the fullness of time.

God can literally KILL and make ALIVE