Did angels actually fall?

[catzrfluffy]

I don’t believe that angels ever fell. Or that demons are fallen angels. I believe that demons are creations of human witchcraft.
What is slandering celestial beings and blaspheming in matters we do not understand? (Jude 1:8; 2 Peter 2:10-12) Surely it is saying that angels are demons and that they sinned and blaming them for tempting us and causing us to sin. The bible never actually explains what demons are.
Did angels fall during the flood? As Trypho the Jew said when debating the Book of Enoch with Justin Martyr: “You have blasphemed, because you claim that angels would sin.” (Dialogue 1:79:1) In Genesis 6:4 the bible never says this is a sin. The next line (Genesis 6:5) refers not to the angels, but the sinfulness of mankind at that time.
I believe that Isaiah 14:12-17 and Ezekiel 28:2-19 says it was not the angels themselves who fell, but the reputation of angels that fell among the pagans, as the pagans blamed angels for their own sins, when really mankind was sinful, this carried on from paganism into Christian religion when it came about.
I believe that 2 Peter 2:4 means when”they” sinned, meaning mankind, the angels were sent to be with those who suffered because of the sinful persecution in an earthly “hell”, to deliver them like God delivered Lot. The chapter speaks of how all these examples (2 Peter 2:4-9) describe examples of God delivering the righteous and holding the wicked for judgment (2 Peter 2:9). 2 Peter 2:4 contains no example of God delivering righteous men unless interpreted that way.
In Jude 1:7, angels are with us to deliver us from the sinful persecution committed by others. They are sent to be with us in our darkness, bound with everlasting chains of love to us. “In a similar way” (Jude 1:6) refers to the verse before, not angels, (verse Jude 1:5). All these examples refer to God delivering the righteous from sinful men.
The greatest evil is man.

 

[Freth]

Satan and his angels were cast out of heaven to the earth.

Revelation 12:3-4 And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads. And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.​

​

Revelation 12:7-9 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels, And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven. And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.​

Satan is called the prince of this world because he was cast out of heaven to the earth.

John 12:31 Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out.​

Satan is called the prince of the power of the air (note, this world).

Ephesians 2:1-3 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins; Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience: Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.​

​

The rulers of the darkness of this world. Spiritual wickedness in high places.

​

Ephesians 6:12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.​

 

[JulieB67]

Jude 6 "And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, He hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day."

I believe that 2 Peter 2:4 means when”they” sinned, meaning mankind, the angels were sent to be with those who suffered because of the sinful persecution in an earthly “hell”, to deliver them like God delivered Lot.

That's not what the verse states at all.

They are sent to be with us in our darkness, bound with everlasting chains of love to us.

We can't add to God's word and you've added "mankind" and that they are sent to be with us in our darkness to love us. Totally unbiblical. Are we going to believe God's Word or man?

II Peter 2:4 "For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;"

It clearly states the angels sinned.

And both of these verses are stating the same thing. The angels sinned and look closely at the end of both verses -


" He hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day."

"and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;""

 

[johansen]

I don’t believe that angels ever fell. Or that demons are fallen angels. I believe that demons are creations of human witchcraft

A woman told me that she aborted her human-demon hybrid. She later supposedly became a christian and told me sometimes Jesus gives her peace about what happened. -basically as she was spiritually giving birth to it, she grabbed a knife and cut its head off.

So, while you may be onto something, its certainly more complicated than that.

Also in conjunction with just normal entropy, humans can't create something more spiritually powerful than they are. so how can a human make a demon, unless there are fallen higher order creations. like when you cross a horse and a donkey and you get a mule, which is steril.

the alien baby fake pregnancy.. alien abduction experiences are not uncommon and are thousands of years old, just expressed differently through the ages. some say those experiences are in fact real. i don't know but what is the result? the result is a traumatized woman, usually young.

as for the rest of your post, i think the prior 2 replies are enough to show you there is no biblical support for the bulk of your positions.

regarding humans being and doing the things demons can do, dr rebecca brown talks a little about it in her book "he came to set the captives free"

also look into making a golem.. (likely a bunch of nonsense, but the point is these ideas are as old as time)

https://www.faculty.umb.edu/gary_zabel/Courses/Phil%20281b/Philosophy%20of%20Magic/Arcana/Kabbalah/golem02.shtml.html

and we wonder what Exekiel and Jeremiah were so offended at...

 

[catzrfluffy]

Satan and his angels were cast out of heaven to the earth.

Revelation 12:3-4 And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads. And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.​

​

Revelation 12:7-9 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels, And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven. And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.​

This is prophetic language used in Revelation and refers to paganism.

Satan is called the prince of this world because he was cast out of heaven to the earth.

John 12:31 Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out.​

Satan is called the prince of the power of the air (note, this world).

Ephesians 2:1-3 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins; Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience: Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.​

​

The rulers of the darkness of this world. Spiritual wickedness in high places.

​

Ephesians 6:12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.​

These passages do not say Satan, and I believe reference the sinful nature.

 

[catzrfluffy]

II Peter 2:4 "For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;"

My bible says: 2 Peter 2:4 “For if God did not spare angels when they sinned…”

 

[johansen]

My bible says: 2 Peter 2:4 “For if God did not spare angels when they sinned…”

The demons are disembodied spirits of the second and third generation hybrids.

The angels are no longer in the picture. Unless more rebel.

 

[Joseph G]

I don’t believe that angels ever fell. Or that demons are fallen angels. I believe that demons are creations of human witchcraft.
What is slandering celestial beings and blaspheming in matters we do not understand? (Jude 1:8; 2 Peter 2:10-12) Surely it is saying that angels are demons and that they sinned and blaming them for tempting us and causing us to sin. The bible never actually explains what demons are.
Did angels fall during the flood? As Trypho the Jew said when debating the Book of Enoch with Justin Martyr: “You have blasphemed, because you claim that angels would sin.” (Dialogue 1:79:1) In Genesis 6:4 the bible never says this is a sin. The next line (Genesis 6:5) refers not to the angels, but the sinfulness of mankind at that time.
I believe that Isaiah 14:12-17 and Ezekiel 28:2-19 says it was not the angels themselves who fell, but the reputation of angels that fell among the pagans, as the pagans blamed angels for their own sins, when really mankind was sinful, this carried on from paganism into Christian religion when it came about.
I believe that 2 Peter 2:4 means when”they” sinned, meaning mankind, the angels were sent to be with those who suffered because of the sinful persecution in an earthly “hell”, to deliver them like God delivered Lot. The chapter speaks of how all these examples (2 Peter 2:4-9) describe examples of God delivering the righteous and holding the wicked for judgment (2 Peter 2:9). 2 Peter 2:4 contains no example of God delivering righteous men unless interpreted that way.
In Jude 1:7, angels are with us to deliver us from the sinful persecution committed by others. They are sent to be with us in our darkness, bound with everlasting chains of love to us. “In a similar way” (Jude 1:6) refers to the verse before, not angels, (verse Jude 1:5). All these examples refer to God delivering the righteous from sinful men.
The greatest evil is man.

And Satan is really our best friend, right?

1 Timothy 4:1-4 NIV

"The Spirit clearly says that in later times some will abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons."

2 Corinthians 11:13-14 NIV

"For such people are false apostles, deceitful workers, masquerading as apostles of Christ. And no wonder, for Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light."

Isaiah 5:20 NIV

"Woe to those who call evil good
and good evil,
who put darkness for light
and light for darkness,
who put bitter for sweet
and sweet for bitter."

 

[Maori Aussie]

“I saw Satan fall from heaven like lightning! Luke 10:18

 

[johansen]

https://www.reddit.com/r/AlienAbduction/s/AnuYkgyaIc

These accounts are not abnormal.

Get out and actually talk to people

 

[David Lamb]

I don’t believe that angels ever fell. Or that demons are fallen angels. I believe that demons are creations of human witchcraft.
What is slandering celestial beings and blaspheming in matters we do not understand? (Jude 1:8; 2 Peter 2:10-12) Surely it is saying that angels are demons and that they sinned and blaming them for tempting us and causing us to sin. The bible never actually explains what demons are.
Did angels fall during the flood? As Trypho the Jew said when debating the Book of Enoch with Justin Martyr: “You have blasphemed, because you claim that angels would sin.” (Dialogue 1:79:1) In Genesis 6:4 the bible never says this is a sin. The next line (Genesis 6:5) refers not to the angels, but the sinfulness of mankind at that time.
I believe that Isaiah 14:12-17 and Ezekiel 28:2-19 says it was not the angels themselves who fell, but the reputation of angels that fell among the pagans, as the pagans blamed angels for their own sins, when really mankind was sinful, this carried on from paganism into Christian religion when it came about.
I believe that 2 Peter 2:4 means when”they” sinned, meaning mankind, the angels were sent to be with those who suffered because of the sinful persecution in an earthly “hell”, to deliver them like God delivered Lot. The chapter speaks of how all these examples (2 Peter 2:4-9) describe examples of God delivering the righteous and holding the wicked for judgment (2 Peter 2:9). 2 Peter 2:4 contains no example of God delivering righteous men unless interpreted that way.
In Jude 1:7, angels are with us to deliver us from the sinful persecution committed by others. They are sent to be with us in our darkness, bound with everlasting chains of love to us. “In a similar way” (Jude 1:6) refers to the verse before, not angels, (verse Jude 1:5). All these examples refer to God delivering the righteous from sinful men.
The greatest evil is man.

“For if God did not spare the angels who sinned, but cast them down to hell and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved for judgment;” (2Pe 2:4 NKJV)

How can you make "the angels that sinned" mean "mankind?"

Your statement is even more puzzling when we see 2 Peter 2:4 in its context:


“And many will follow their destructive ways, because of whom the way of truth will be blasphemed. By covetousness they will exploit you with deceptive words; for a long time their judgment has not been idle, and their destruction does not slumber. For if God did not spare the angels who sinned, but cast them down to hell and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved for judgment; and did not spare the ancient world, but saved Noah, one of eight people, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood on the world of the ungodly;” (2Pe 2:2-5 NKJV)

So Peter writes both about people who sinned, and then in v4, angels that sinned.

Jude 1:6-7 says:

“And the angels who did not keep their proper domain, but left their own abode, He has reserved in everlasting chains under darkness for the judgment of the great day; as Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities around them in a similar manner to these, having given themselves over to sexual immorality and gone after strange flesh, are set forth as an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.” (Jude 1:6-7 NKJV)

How can you make those word mean: "angels are with us to deliver us from the sinful persecution committed by others?"

 

[JulieB67]

My bible says

Where does your bible state this?

meaning mankind

Or this

the angels were sent to be with those who suffered

Or this

They are sent to be with us in our darkness, bound with everlasting chains of love to us.

In Jude 1:7, angels are with us to deliver us from the sinful persecution committed by others. They are sent to be with us in our darkness, bound with everlasting chains of love to us. “In a similar way” (Jude 1:6) refers to the verse before, not angels, (verse Jude 1:5). All these examples refer to God delivering the righteous from sinful men.
The greatest evil is man.

In context with verse 6 -the sin of Sodom and Gomorrah in verse 7 is given in comparison to the angels sin


Jude 6 "And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, He hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day."


Jude 7 "Even as Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities about them, in like manner giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire."

My bible says: 2 Peter 2:4 “For if God did not spare angels when they sinned…”

If you click on your very own link it states

For if God did not spare the angels who sinned, but cast them down to hell and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved for judgment;”

Which is stating the same thing as this


II Peter 2:4 "For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;"

Again, we cannot add to God's Word. It's very clear that the angels sinned.

 

[BelieveItOarKnot]

I don’t believe that angels ever fell. Or that demons are fallen angels.

True. There is no statement in the Bible that Satan was ever "a holy angel" who by whatever means, "fell."

Jesus said the devil was a liar and a murderer from the beginning, presumably his own beginning. John 8:44

I believe that demons are creations of human witchcraft.

Uh, probably not.

What is slandering celestial beings and blaspheming in matters we do not understand? (Jude 1:8; 2 Peter 2:10-12) Surely it is saying that angels are demons and that they sinned and blaming them for tempting us and causing us to sin. The bible never actually explains what demons are.

Well, yes the scriptures do quite well describe what these adverse beings are. They are spirits first and foremost, since we do not physically see "them." They are spirits of disobedience. Essentially, the spirits of devils/disobedience.

And these beings are overlaid upon the flesh of all of us in the forms of temptations, evil lawless thoughts, deceptions of various kinds. Coverups, excuses, hiding themselves and the like.

Did angels fall during the flood?

No. They were simply made homeless enmasse. Wicked spirits consider "man" to be "my house." Luke 11:24

As Trypho the Jew said when debating the Book of Enoch with Justin Martyr: “You have blasphemed, because you claim that angels would sin.” (Dialogue 1:79:1) In Genesis 6:4 the bible never says this is a sin. The next line (Genesis 6:5) refers not to the angels, but the sinfulness of mankind at that time.

There is actually no separating this matter. Devils sin "in man."

The term angel is meaningless in the equations. It merely means "messenger." And there are both "holy" and "wicked" messengers. Not to be confused with each others. One is not the other.

I believe that Isaiah 14:12-17 and Ezekiel 28:2-19 says it was not the angels themselves who fell, but the reputation of angels that fell among the pagans, as the pagans blamed angels for their own sins, when really mankind was sinful, this carried on from paganism into Christian religion when it came about.

Christianity does present 2 distinct matters here. One, sins are not counted against people, 2 Cor. 5:19.

But sins are counted against the devils. 1 John 3:8, Mark 4:15 and many other similar citings

I believe that 2 Peter 2:4 means when”they” sinned, meaning mankind, the angels were sent to be with those who suffered because of the sinful persecution in an earthly “hell”, to deliver them like God delivered Lot. The chapter speaks of how all these examples (2 Peter 2:4-9) describe examples of God delivering the righteous and holding the wicked for judgment (2 Peter 2:9). 2 Peter 2:4 contains no example of God delivering righteous men unless interpreted that way.
In Jude 1:7, angels are with us to deliver us from the sinful persecution committed by others. They are sent to be with us in our darkness, bound with everlasting chains of love to us. “In a similar way” (Jude 1:6) refers to the verse before, not angels, (verse Jude 1:5). All these examples refer to God delivering the righteous from sinful men.
The greatest evil is man.

You have some serious gaps in your theories above.

While it is true that the greatest evil above all things is in our own hearts ala Jer. 17:9, when the TEMPTER is inserted into the equation it becomes quite obvious who the real perp is. And who is just providing excuses and coverups for same.

Every one of us has dealt with internal temptations of the tempter. An alien entity that is not "us." Most simply don't perceive it as something other than themselves.

God in Christ didn't come to save devils and mankind are not devils. Nor did God in Christ come to convert devils into children of God.

 

[Jude1:3Contendforthefaith]

2 different falls happened.

The first was the 1/3 of The Angels that fell with Satan.

The second time was before The Flood and is spoken about in Genesis 6 and the Book of Enoch :

The Book of Enoch?

Double post

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