Deliberate Sin - Not Forgiven?

[soulsisterclaire]

In another thread, someone said that if we sin knowing that Jesus will forgive us then that sin is NOT forgiven.

Well, this rubbed me the wrong way so I researched a little and came up with this verse -

Hebrews 10;
26 For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and fiery indignation which will devour the adversaries.

So, my question - how do you interpret this? I am NOT asking if we can lose salvation. I am asking what the verse above is saying, how do you all interpret that? Is it saying that if I sin and know it is sin before I do it, then that sin is not forgiven? That I will be punished or judged for that sin? Even if I ask for forgiveness?

Any other verses on this?

Here is the rest of that chapter in case you are interested -

28 Anyone who has rejected Moses' law dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29Of how much worse punishment, do you suppose, will he be thought worthy who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, counted the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified a common thing, and insulted the Spirit of grace? 30For we know Him who said, "Vengeance is Mine, I will repay,"[5] says the Lord.[6] And again, "The LORD will judge His people."[7] 31It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
32But recall the former days in which, after you were illuminated, you endured a great struggle with sufferings: 33partly while you were made a spectacle both by reproaches and tribulations, and partly while you became companions of those who were so treated; 34for you had compassion on me[8] in my chains, and joyfully accepted the plundering of your goods, knowing that you have a better and an enduring possession for yourselves in heaven.[9] 35Therefore do not cast away your confidence, which has great reward. 36For you have need of endurance, so that after you have done the will of God, you may receive the promise:


37"For yet a little while,
And He[10] who is coming will come and will not tarry.
38Now the[11] just shall live by faith;
But if anyone draws back,
My soul has no pleasure in him."[12]


39But we are not of those who draw back to perdition, but of those who believe to the saving of the soul.

 

[Christi]

I have no profound, knowledgable answers for you. That confuses me also, because I feel like really.....all sin is deliberate, right? (If I had thought I could get away with "God it was an accident!!, I would have already tried that one! lol!) But seriously, it says what it says. Is this what they call a "hard saying" of the Bible?

 

[ZiSunka]

I hope not. Not very much sin is committed accidentally, after all. Almost all sins are intentional and willful. We know what we should or shouldn't do, but we don't act on our knowledge.

 

[Christi]

:o Yikes!

 

[Shane Roach]

A similar chapter can be found in 2 Peter 2. Look especially at verses 20-22.

The thing is, it's not just sin, but being overcome by it.

Hebrews 6:6 adresses similar concerns. The desciption of the fallen believer is such that it look slike as long as you can bring yourself to repentance you are in good shape. It is when you begin to try to rationalize yourself as being saved and not having to behave within church discipline that you begin to walk down this road.

 

[sevusan]

I cannot say but what I feel when I read this passage,
could it not be like the adultress that was being stoned for adultry and Jesus ask woman where are your acursers she answered they are gone then Jesus said then I will not judge you sin no more. or could it be that we wh asked for forgiveness for our sins that we committed before accepting the Lord that he is asking us not to sin anymore for the very acts that he forgave us for. but then he tells us to forgive not 7 but 70 so then would that be grace that he has given us and we are to give this back to our brothers and sisters that are not yet in Jesus Christ or could it be that if you accept Jesus Christ and then turn your back on him after knowing what love and forgiveness he has bestowed upon us that this might be what is mean't to always stay in the light of the Lord then you will not hurt what he sacrified for us. It could be like outright defiance of the very nature of the Lord.

 

[terpswm]

Hmmm. Earlier it was said and I tend to agree that most, if not all, sin is deliberate; at least to a certain extent. This begs the question does judgment equate to damnation?

From looking at the surrounding passages it seems to me to be an indictment of those who hear the Truth and reject it. Verse 29 makes that clear to me.

Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

 

[Christi]

I was also wondering if perhaps he was talking about the new covenant with Jesus vs. animal sacrifice. Like once you accept the sacrifice He made for you and the grace that has been given to you......you can't just keep committing these sins and then think you can go sacrifice a calf or a goat or something. Does that make sense, or am I way off base, here?

 

[soulsisterclaire]

Originally posted by Christi
I was also wondering if perhaps he was talking about the new covenant with Jesus vs. animal sacrifice. Like once you accept the sacrifice He made for you and the grace that has been given to you......you can't just keep committing these sins and then think you can go sacrifice a calf or a goat or something. Does that make sense, or am I way off base, here?

I would like to think that except that it is in the New Testament.

 

[2002 Christian]

Take it for what it's worth - deliberate, intentional sins were not covered by the OT sacrificial services of the sanctuary. Sins of unintention were covered.

Do a KJV Bible search for
"unawares"
"sin through ignorance"
compared to
"presumtuous"
"presumptuously"
"despised the word of the LORD"

 

[LouisBooth]

"So, my question - how do you interpret this? "

Paul states that if I rebuild what I have destroyed then I prove myself a lawbreaker. If you keep sinning without repentance, there is something very wrong in your relationship with God, if there is one. People do fail, but if you continually fail at the same thing over and over and over again, there is something wrong.

 

[Nick_Loves_Abba]

Jesus himself says in Matthew that all sins are forgiven except the sin, blasphemy against the Holy Spirit.

Hmm.... *ponders*

 

[Nick_Loves_Abba]

Geez guys I'm scared now.

 

[Christi]

Me, too, Nick. I fail over and over daily. Maybe it's temper one day, and pride the next. Maybe it's selfishness the next day, and gossip after that. Then back to the temper. And through all of this I am smoking cigarettes. And I go before Him in shame, begging for forgiveness once again...."Is that you AGAIN, Christi? Let someone else have a turn!".....Maybe I am completely delusional, but I KNOW HE LOVES ME AND I KNOW I AM FORGIVEN! I know when God looks at me he sees me through Jesus. And HE sees me as perfect. We can pick verses and hypothetical situations and laws and rules and "yes, but..." or "only if...". I just know in my heart I am His love, His daughter, and His bride. I don't know that anyone can convince me otherwise. But guess what? If I knew for certain, tonight, I would not spend eternity with Him, so what....I would still love and serve him all my life. He is GOD, no matter where I stand. He is worthy to be praised.

 

[ChristianPilot]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't Jesus forgive all sins?

Maybe we need to call in the big guns here.

 

[Christi]

I always thought so, but apparently in Hebrews (see orig. post) Paul says that if you sin deliberatly after knowing the truth, there is no further sacrifice available...it's sounding kinda like maybe any sin you commit after salvation, knowing that it is a sin, .....well, tough for you. I am hoping that I (we) are misinterpreting it. Hey, all you guys that are in apologetics and interfaith who are way over my head.....come help us out here.

 

[ChristianPilot]

This is what I have in "The Message" by Eugene Peterson which is really just the Bible re-written in very modern English.

If we give up and turn our backs on all we've learned, all we've been given, all the truth we now know, we repudiate Christ's sacifice and are left on our own to face the Judgment--and a mighty fierce judgment it will be!

In my opinion, after reading this and the verse given in the original post, I think it means that the only unforgivable sin is rejecting Jesus as your savior.

Now this brings up another question with me. Is rejecting Jesus the unforgivable sin, or not having him as your savior when the time comes?

 

[Nick_Loves_Abba]

Isn't rejecting him and not having him as my savior the same thing?

 

[Andrew]

Claire,

Why are you still focussed on sin? Do you know that the Bible calls that having an "evil conscience"? Why? Cos Jesus has already put away all your lifetime of sins and God doesnt even remember them. So if you still choose to rem and dwell on your sins, then you are not honouring Him and His perfect work.

Hebrews 10;
26 For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and fiery indignation which will devour the adversaries.

This just means that after a person learns about being a sinner (most non-believers dont think they are sinners) in need of a Saviour, after finding out that Jesus is the only sacrifice for sins, if he turn his back on Him and continues to sin (now he knows he's a sinner so it's "willfully" sin), there remains no more sacrifice cos Jesus is it. There isnt gonna be another Jesus coming down to die on the cross or offer some other way. And for such people, they will be punished with hell. Note also the word "adversaries" or enemies. Make up your mind, are you God's child or are you His enemy?

Someone said that the best way to understand Hebrews is to read the entire book from beginning to end in one sitting. Look for the central theme and point of the author. Then it's easy to understnd those 2-3 difficult verses. If you just pick one or two out, you're gonna misinterpret them for the worst.

God bless

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it's sounding kinda like maybe any sin you commit after salvation, knowing that it is a sin, .....well, tough for you.
-------------
No offence but that's a load of bull! Christ died more than 2000 years ago. All our sins were future then. All were put on His body and punished in His body. So you're talking as though God's perfect work is limited by time that He created, as though he missed out all the future sins. Also, rem that God doesnt even rem your sins or count them against you. Everytime you sin, God DOES NOT credit it into your account IOW.

You cant lose your salvation by sinning anymore than a sinner can lose his sinnership and gain righteousness by doing good. That's in Romans 5.

peace

 

[jrmorganjr]

Thanks, Andrew, I was allowing myself to get drawn into the reasoning being presented. You brought me right back to where I should have known better. After all, we are being made perfect after salvation, not perfect already. Of course we sin after being born again. Don't all these arguments come down to that? How could anyone possibly be (futuristically) perfect instantly upon being born again, this side of the new earth?

Christ has made the down payment on our perfection at the cross, but it was not the new Creation / Jerusalem. We still cry when sin pounds our souls. All these ideas that Paul in Romans (7-8?) was talking about his "before being born again" status is pure bunk, coupled with the desire to condemn everyone in sight. I've never gotten anyone who subscribes to this idea (good_news, dave_ulchers, b_o_b weigh in with the opposing view, please...) to admit that they, personally, are following this path that they support. Is anyone sinless?? Only one, my Lord, and my God! Praise & worship to Him, only in Him am I what I must be! Heart, mind, & soul, attend! Perfection is the goal, but it will not be until each of us is glorified!

In Christ,