Futurist Only Daniel 11, Part 2

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Looking at Daniel 11, we have to understand that it is a part of one vision that starts at Daniel 10:1 and goes on through Daniel 12:13. With Daniel 10:1, the vision is described a ‘great war’.

In the third year of Cyrus king of Persia a thing was revealed unto Daniel, whose name was called Belteshazzar; and the thing was true, even a great warfare: and he understood the thing, and had understanding of the vision.

This vision is bookended by seeing an angelic ‘man in linen’.

Dan 10:4 On the twenty-fourth day of the first month, while I was by the bank of the great river, that is, the Tigris, 5 I lifted my eyes and looked, and behold, there was a certain man dressed in linen, whose waist was girded with a belt of pure gold of Uphaz. 6 His body also was like beryl, his face had the appearance of lightning, his eyes were like flaming torches, his arms and feet like the gleam of polished bronze, and the sound of his words like the sound of a tumult.

Here he is again in Daniel 12:

Dan 12:5 Then I, Daniel, looked and behold, two others were standing, one on this bank of the river and the other on that bank of the river. 6 And one said to the man dressed in linen, who was above the waters of the river, “How long will it be until the end of these wonders?” 7 I heard the man dressed in linen, who was above the waters of the river, as he raised his right hand and his left toward heaven, and swore by Him who lives forever that it would be for a time, times, and half a time; and as soon as they finish shattering the power of the holy people, all these events will be completed.

This ‘man in linen’ is the same entity as the Revelation 10 ‘Mighty Angel’. Both are ‘swearing an oath to heaven’ (Rev 10:5-6 & Dan 12:7). Also, the ‘time, times, and half a time’ (3 ½ years) of Daniel 12:7 that is shattering the holy people is the same as the 1260 days of the 2 witnesses in Revelation 11 that immediately occurs after the swearing of the oath.

Let’s take a small digression about the swearing of the oath being the ‘confirming of the covenant’ in Daniel 9:27. Swearing oaths is basically synonymous with making covenants. This occurs over and over in scripture where someone (or God) swears an oath which then creates a covenant between the parties.

• Deut 4:13 For the LORD your God is a merciful God. He will not leave you or destroy you or forget the covenant with your fathers that he swore to them.
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• Deut 4:31 For the LORD your God is a merciful God; He will not abandon you or destroy you or forget the covenant with your fathers, which He swore to them by oath.
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• Genesis 26:28 “We can plainly see that the LORD has been with you,” they replied. “We recommend that there should now be an oath between us and you. Let us make a covenant with you.
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• 2 Kings 11:4 But in the seventh year Jehoiada sent and brought the captains of the Carites and of the guards, and had them come to him in the house of the LORD. And he made a covenant with them and put them under oath in the house of the LORD, and he showed them the king’s son.
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• Psalm 105:8 He remembers His covenant forever, the word He ordained for a thousand generations— 9 the covenant He made with Abraham, and the oath He swore to Isaac. 10 He confirmed it to Jacob as a decree, to Israel as an everlasting covenant: 11 “I will give you the land of Canaan as the portion of your inheritance.”
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• Psalm 132:11 The LORD swore an oath to David, a promise He will not revoke: “One of your descendants I will place on your throne. 12 If your sons keep My covenant and the testimony I will teach them, then their sons will also sit on your throne forever and ever.”
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• Hosea 10:4 They speak mere words; with false oaths they make covenants. So judgment springs up like poisonous weeds in the furrows of a field.
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• Luke 1:72 to show mercy to our fathers and to remember His holy covenant, 73 the oath He swore to our father Abraham, to grant us 74 deliverance from hostile hands, that we may serve Him without fear, 75 in holiness and righteousness before Him all the days of our lives.
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• Deut 8:18 You shall remember the Lord your God, for it is he who gives you power to get wealth, that he may confirm his covenant that he swore to your fathers, as it is this day.

In terms of Daniel 11, this particular instance of the ‘swearing of the oath’ (confirming the covenant) by the angelic ‘man in linen’ is taking place after the events of Daniel 11 (again, it is taking place at Dan 12:7). As we will see below in Daniel 11:22, there is already a prince of the covenant even before the ‘man in linen’ (the Rev 10 ‘mighty angel’) swears an oath to heaven to confirm the covenant (again). So why are there two covenants being broken? By hiding this, it makes people freely choose to join the Beast and worship it if it is in their heart to do so.

This is the meaning of the ‘mystery of God being fulfilled at the 7th Trumpet’ in Revelation 10:7. This ‘mystery’ is hidden in plain sight in many places, one of which is in Daniel 9.

Dan 9:26b Then the people of the prince who is to come will destroy the city and the sanctuary.

The Daniel 8 Little Horn's people, who are also the people of the Daniel 7 Little Horn.

The end will come like a flood, and until the end there will be war; desolations have been decreed.

The Daniel 7 Little Horn will confirm the covenant.

27 And he will confirm a covenant with many for one week, but in the middle of the week he will put an end to sacrifice and offering. And on the wing of the temple will come the abomination that causes desolation, until the decreed destruction is poured out upon him.”

When the ‘city and sanctuary’ are destroyed, this is the attack by the Daniel 11 King of the North (the Daniel 8 Little Horn) placing the abomination of desolation in Jerusalem in Daniel 11:29-31. The ‘war’ that is being described in Dan 9:26 is the vision of the ‘great war’ in Daniel 10:1 and is the same as the events taking place in Daniel 11:29-45 where the King of the North is invading many countries and is the same as the events of the 1st portion of the 6th Trumpet in Revelation 9:13-21. The ‘end of the war’ occurs when the ‘man in linen’ of Daniel 12 (the same as the Revelation 10 ‘Mighty Angel’) confirms the covenant, ending the hostilities. This is why at Rev 10:1 the Mighty Angel has a rainbow on his head signifying the end of the ‘flood’, alluding to the Genesis flood and rainbow covenant. Then this Mighty Angel will break it at the 7th Trumpet, revealing himself to be the ‘dragon’, the ‘deceiver of the whole world’ (Rev 12:9) who goes into heaven to call himself God. Then he gives the sanctuary over to foreigners and to the Daniel 8 Little Horn.

Overview​

• Sometime during the Seals, the ‘prince of the covenant’ of Daniel 11:22 will confirm the covenant (this individual is not the Daniel 8 Little Horn or ‘man in linen’/ the Rev 10 ‘Mighty Angel’).
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• The Daniel 8 Little Horn, the ‘despicable person King of the North’ of Daniel 11:21, takes over the kingdom of the North illegitimately via political intrigue and smooth talking. This appears to be the 4th Seal where Death is given dominion over ¼ of the land (Rev 6:7-8). The ‘fourth part’ seems to refer to the fact that Greece’s dominion of the world was split into four component parts when it is spread to the ‘four winds’ (meaning the four cardinal directions giving us a king of the North, South, East, and West) (Dan 11:4).
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• At the end of the Seals and start of the Trumpets, it appears as if it is the end of the world. The Daniel 8 Little Horn destroys Israel’s powerful army (this is why Israel is filled with ‘locusts’ at the start of the Trumpets – they are people loyal to the invader). His heart is set against the holy covenant but has not placed the abomination of desolation yet - this will happen on his next attack upon Israel. The ‘prince of the covenant’ is killed. Israel’s leader will sign a peace agreement with the Daniel 8 Little Horn, but ‘both of their hearts are bent on evil’ (Dan 11:27).
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• Five months later at the 6th Trumpet, as part of a larger campaign that will see him attack and take over many countries, the Daniel 8 Little Horn will succeed in placing the abomination of desolation in the holy place in Israel. Presumably, this will be 1260 days (the ‘middle of the week’, middle of 7 years in Dan 9:27) from when the prince of the covenant made it. (By extension, this would mean that 1110 days later, roughly three years, after the covenant is confirmed, the Trumpets will begin.)
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• Immediately at the placing of the abomination, the ‘image of jealousy' from Ezekiel 8:3, Jerusalem comes under the wrath of God. One of the principal agents of this wrath is the ‘man in linen’ who is destroying the ‘city and sanctuary’ (Dan 9:26) with fiery coals. The Daniel 8 Little Horn is killed and then this ‘man in linen’, the Daniel 7 Little Horn, the Revelation 10 ‘mighty angel’, the ‘dragon’ of Revelation, Lucifer/ Morningstar (the king of Babylon) confirms the covenant 30 days after the placement of the abomination of desolation (beginning the ‘time, times, and a half time that shatters the holy people’ of Dan 12:7 which is the same as the 1260 days of the 2 witnesses).
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• Then after the 1260 days of the 2 witnesses, Lucifer/ Morningstar, the king of Babylon, breaks the covenant, goes into heaven, and calls himself God (Isaiah 14:12-14). This is where the ‘dragon’ (the ‘deceiver of the world’ in Rev 12:9) is kicked out of heaven in Rev 12:7-9.
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• When the ‘dragon’/ the Revelation 10 ‘mighty angel’ breaks the covenant at the 7th Trumpet, he gives his throne to the beast from the sea (Rev 13:2), ruled by the Daniel 8 Little Horn, who is the ‘mortally head wounded’ individual of Rev 13:3.

 

[tranquil]

Now that it can be plausibly said that the Daniel 8 Little Horn is this ‘despicable person’ of Daniel 11:21, let’s turn our attention to Daniel 11 and try to put these ideas into some more context.

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Dan 11:2 Now then, I will tell you the truth: Three more kings will arise in Persia, and then a fourth, who will be far richer than all the others. By the power of his wealth, he will stir up everyone against the kingdom of Greece.

3 Then a mighty king will arise, who will rule with great authority and do as he pleases. 4 But as soon as he is established, his kingdom will be broken up and parceled out toward the four winds of heaven. It will not go to his descendants, nor will it have the authority with which he ruled, because his kingdom will be uprooted and given to others.

One of the many difficulties with Daniel 11 is knowing when a thing is happening. Are we to understand the four kings of Persia and the mighty king of Greece as happening in the same eschatological timeframe, as happening in the end-times? Luckily here, we know from Daniel 8 that we are to understand this as ancient history. The mighty king of Greece who has his kingdom split into four component parts is referring to Alexander the Great circa 336 BC.

Dan 8:20 The two-horned ram that you saw represents the kings of Media and Persia. 21 The shaggy goat represents the king of Greece, and the large horn between his eyes is the first king. 22 The four horns that replaced the broken one represent four kingdoms that will rise from that nation, but will not have the same power.

For simplicity’s sake, I am excluding Daniel 11:5-20 from the present commentary to focus on the Daniel 8 Little Horn described in Daniel 11:21-45.

Dan 11:21 In his place a despicable person will arise; royal honors will not be given to him, but he will come in a time of peace and seize the kingdom by intrigue.

This seems to correlate to the 4th Seal of Revelation 6:8 where Death is given dominion over 1/4th of the land. This occurs while there is peace which ends at the start of the Trumpets (Numbers 10:9 indicates that Trumpets means an attack and going to war). ‘Death’ is the ‘despicable person’ who receives the kingdom of the North. This vile person is the Daniel 8 Little Horn that is coming out of the kingdom of Greece that was divided into four parts. When Death has dominion over a ‘fourth part’, this seems to refer to the fact that the King of the North is one of the four cardinal points.

22 Then a flood of forces will be swept away before him and destroyed, along with a prince of the covenant.

Let’s revisit Daniel 9:26b-27.

Dan 9:26b Then the people of the prince who is to come will destroy the city and the sanctuary. The end will come like a flood, and until the end there will be war; desolations have been decreed. 27 And he will confirm a covenant with many for one week, but in the middle of the week he will put an end to sacrifice and offering. And on the wing of the temple will come the abomination that causes desolation, until the decreed destruction is poured out upon him.”

Here is Genesis 7:24: And the waters prevailed on the earth 150 days.

The ‘flood’ in Dan 9:26 (of 150 days) would connect with the ‘flood of forces’ in Dan 11:22 which would connect with the 5 months (150 days) of Rev 9:5’s locusts in the 1st Woe and 5th Trumpet (locusts would be one meaning of the ‘people of the prince to come’).

One other note here, the ‘despicable person’ is not the person who makes the covenant because that person is dying due to the actions of the Daniel 8 Little Horn/ despicable person.

Now in the following, we are going back in time a little while to show his rise to power before the flood of forces and invasion attack when there is the time of peace and he is lavishing plunder and wealth.

Dan 11:23 After an alliance is made with him, he will act deceitfully; for he will rise to power with only a few people.

Some commentators want to say that this ‘alliance’ (the Hebrew word, ‘chabar’, meaning ‘to unite’) is the start of the notorious ‘Daniel’s 70th week’, but there is no mention of a covenant here. We have a covenant mentioned in verse 22 and we have an angel making a covenant (swearing an oath to heaven) in Dan 12:7.

Dan 11:24 In a time of peace, he will invade the richest provinces and do what his fathers and forefathers never did. He will lavish plunder, loot, and wealth on his followers, and he will plot against the strongholds—but only for a time.

Dan 11:25 And with a large army he will stir up his power and his courage against the king of the South, who will mobilize a very large and powerful army but will not withstand the plots devised against him.

The ‘King of the South’ here can mean either the Southern kingdom portion out of the kingdom of Greece or it can mean the land of Israel. Often, commentators will say that the South refers to Egypt, but Daniel specifically mentions ‘Egypt’ multiple times in chapter 11, so presumably he would just say Egypt. The Hebrew word for ‘south’ is ‘negeb’ which can either mean ‘south’ or the area of the Negev which is southern Israel and part of the land allotment of Judah. Contextually in Dan 11:15-16, the King of the North successfully invades the South which results in him establishing himself in the ‘Beautiful Land’. This term, ‘Beautiful Land’ is referring to the land of Israel as in Ezekiel 20:6, Ezekiel 20:15, Ezekiel 26:12, and Jeremiah 3:19. Also, in Daniel 11:29-31, the despicable person invades the South for a second time and his forces place the abomination of desolation there– which will be in Jerusalem, not Egypt.

Numbers 10:9 And when you go to war in your land against the adversary who oppresses you, then you shall sound an alarm with the trumpets, that you may be remembered before the LORD your God, and you shall be saved from your enemies.

This is the start of the Trumpets of Revelation. Death, the Daniel 8 Little Horn, has ‘stirred up his courage’ against Israel. Israel in turn will ‘sound the alarm of the trumpets’ and will mobilize to go to war, but this powerful Israeli army will be defeated. Israel is ‘saved from their enemies’ during the 1st portion of the 6th Trumpet – the 200 million man army of Rev 9:16 is a reference to Psalm 68:17’s ‘the chariots of God are twice ten thousands upon ten thousand’ (2 x 10,000 x 10,000 = 200 million). This is when the angel Michael starts to ‘stand up’ (Dan 12:1) and is the start of Dan 12:11’s 1290 days.

One thing to note here with Psalm 68, in addition to the allusion to God’s armies, there is the mention of the leader of God’s enemies receiving a mortal head wound. When the Daniel 8 Little Horn reappears at the 7th Trumpet, he will have had a ‘mortal head wound’ (Rev 13:3) and be rising from the sea.

Psalm 68:21 But God will wound the head of His enemies, The hairy scalp of the one who still goes on in his trespasses. 22 The Lord said, “I will retrieve them from Bashan, I will bring them up from the depths of the sea,

Also, in Numbers 10:9 above, Israel is ‘remembered before God’ similar to the 12 tribes being sealed and the great multitude start coming out of the great tribulation in Revelation 7 as the seven Trumpets begin.

Dan 11:26 Those who eat from his provisions will seek to destroy him; his army will be swept away, and many will fall slain.

Israel’s large and powerful army is defeated. This is the first attack on Israel. Because this man is the Daniel 8 Little Horn, we can correlate this to Daniel 8:9-10: From one of these horns a little horn emerged and grew extensively toward the south and the east and toward the Beautiful Land. It grew as high as the host of heaven, and it cast down some of the host and some of the stars to the earth, and trampled them.

‘Host’ here is the Hebrew word, ‘tsaba’, which also means ‘army’. ‘Some of the stars falling to the earth’ refers to the 1/3 portion of stars that fall at the 4th Trumpet in Rev 8:12.

Dan 11:27 And the two kings, with their hearts bent on evil, will speak lies at the same table, but to no avail, for still the end will come at the appointed time.

This ‘speaking lies at the same table’ is presumably a peace treaty and may be one meaning of the ‘covenant with Death’ from Isaiah 28:18.

Dan 11:28 The king of the North will return to his land with great wealth, but his heart will be set against the holy covenant; so he will do damage and return to his own land.

 

[tranquil]

Dan 11:29 At the appointed time he will invade the South again, but this time will not be like the first. 30 Ships of Kittim will come against him, and he will lose heart. Then he will turn back and rage against the holy covenant and do damage. So he will return and show favor to those who forsake the holy covenant. 31 His forces will rise up and desecrate the temple fortress. They will abolish the daily sacrifice and set up the abomination of desolation.

As noted above, this is the second attack by the despicable King of the North. These are the events of the 6th Trumpet (the 2nd woe) occurring during Revelation 9:13-21. The ‘ships of Kittim’ establishes this as part of the latter days due to this being a latter days reference in Numbers 24:24. Also, the future abomination of desolation of Matthew 24:15 that is said to be described by Daniel is this particular abomination of desolation mentioned in Daniel 11:31 and Daniel 12:11.

Dan 11:32 With flattery he will corrupt those who violate the covenant, but the people who know their God will firmly resist him. 33 Those with insight will instruct many, though for a time they will fall by sword or flame, or be captured or plundered. 34 Now when they fall, they will be granted a little help, but many will join them insincerely. 35 Some of the wise will fall, so that they may be refined, purified, and made spotless until the time of the end, for it will still come at the appointed time.

When it talks about ‘the appointed times’, we know what these are: these are at the time indicators given in Daniel 8, 9, and 12 – which is to say: 2300 days, 70 weeks, 7 years, the ‘middle of the week’, the first day of the 1290 days, the start of the time, times, and half a time (1260 days in Dan 12:7), the 1290th day ,and the 1335th day.

Daniel 11:36-45 is also occurring during the 30 days of Revelation 9:13-21.

Dan 11:36 Then the king will do as he pleases and will exalt and magnify himself above every god, and he will speak monstrous things against the God of gods. He will be successful until the time of wrath is completed, for what has been decreed must be accomplished. 37 He will show no regard for the gods of his fathers, nor for the one desired by women, nor for any other god, because he will magnify himself above them all.

Dan 11:38 And in their place, he will honor a god of fortresses—a god his fathers did not know—with gold, silver, precious stones, and riches. 39 He will attack the strongest fortresses with the help of a foreign god and will greatly honor those who acknowledge him, making them rulers over many and distributing the land for a price.

We know who this 'god of fortresses' is: it is the ruler of Tyre, who calls himself a god.

Ezekiel 28: 2 “Son of man, say to the prince of Tyre, Thus says the Lord God: “Because your heart is proud, and you have said, ‘I am a god, I sit in the seat of the gods, in the heart of the seas,’ yet you are but a man, and no god, though you make your heart like the heart of a god—​

Here is the same word for fortress, the Hebrew word 'maoz', used in the context of Tyre:

Isa 23:6 Cross over to Tarshish; wail, O inhabitants of the coast! 7 Is this your exultant city whose origin is from days of old, whose feet carried her to settle far away? 8 Who has purposed this against Tyre, the bestower of crowns, whose merchants were princes, whose traders were the honored of the earth? 9 The Lord of hosts has purposed it, to defile the pompous pride of all glory, to dishonor all the honored of the earth. 10 Cross over your land like the Nile, O daughter of Tarshish; there is no restraint anymore. 11 He has stretched out his hand over the sea; he has shaken the kingdoms; the Lord has given command concerning Canaan to destroy its [maoz] fortresses.

Here are other words for 'fortresses' used in conjunction with Tyre - who calls himself a god:

2 Samuel 24:7 They went toward the [mibtsar] fortress of Tyre and all the cities of the Hivites and Canaanites. Finally, they went on to the Negev of Judah, to Beersheba.​

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Zech 9:3 Tyre has built herself a [matsor] fortress; she has heaped up silver like dust, and gold like the dirt of the streets.​

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Dan 11:40 At the time of the end, the king of the South will engage him in battle, but the king of the North will storm out against him with chariots, horsemen, and many ships, invading many countries and sweeping through them like a flood.

The ‘end’ being talked about here is the ‘end of the flood’ which will end when the covenant is confirmed. (Although there is probably a double meaning here which would apply to the end at the 7th Trumpet, seven Bowls of wrath, and Armagdeddon.)

Dan 9:26b Then the people of the prince who is to come will destroy the city and the sanctuary. The end will come like a flood, and until the end there will be war; desolations have been decreed. 27 And he will confirm a covenant with many for one week, but in the middle of the week he will put an end to sacrifice and offering. And on the wing of the temple will come the abomination that causes desolation, until the decreed destruction is poured out upon him.”

Dan 11:41 He will also invade the Beautiful Land, and many countries will fall. But these will be delivered from his hand: Edom, Moab, and the leaders of the Ammonites.

Many translations of verse 41 say that ‘he invades’ as if this is another invasion in addition to the second invasion mentioned in verse 29. There in verse 29, it mentions that he, personally, is turned away, but his forces are able to place the abomination of desolation.

The following translation is more faithful to the Hebrew and connects better with what is described in verses 29-31. He personally is turned away in Dan 11:29, but does return to successfully enter Israel.

Dan 11:41“He will also enter the Beautiful Land, and many countries will fall; but these will be rescued out of his hand: Edom, Moab and the foremost of the sons of Ammon.

 

[tranquil]

In the Numbers passage below, Moab is in parallel with ‘all the sons of Seth/ Sheth’ as an epithet. Moab’s brother is Ammon, so by extension, Ammon would be part of the ‘sons of Seth’. In other words, the defeat of Edom, Moab, and Ammon is part of the messianic expectations – the ‘star’ that comes out of Jacob will defeat these three countries.

Num 24:17 I see him, but not now; I behold him, but not near. A star will come forth from Jacob, and a scepter will arise from Israel. He will crush the skulls of Moab and strike down all the sons of Sheth. 18 Edom will become a possession, as will Seir, his enemy; but Israel will perform with valor. 19 A ruler will come from Jacob and destroy the survivors of the city.”​

Of course, this ‘star’ is Jesus/ Yeshua who says in Revelation 22:16: “I, Jesus, have sent my angel to testify to you about these things for the churches. I am the root and the descendant of David, the bright morning star.”

This ‘bright morning star’ and ‘descendant of David’ reference is coming from Isaiah chapters 11-14. ‘Bright morning star’ is also applied to the wicked king of Babylon in Isaiah 14:12 (‘morning star’ is where we get the term, ‘Lucifer’). Isaiah 11:10-14 describes how the descendant of David (‘the root of Jesse’) will take over Edom, Moab, and Ammon. The problem here is that ‘Lucifer’, the ‘wicked king of Babylon’ (Isa 14:4-5) is also called a ‘branch’ in Isaiah 14:19, in addition to being called ‘morning star’ just like the descendant of David is called the ‘Branch’ in Isaiah 11:1.

A little bit later in Numbers 24:24 we see: Ships will come from Kittim; they will afflict Assyria and Eber, but they too will perish forever.” We just saw the ships of Kittim afflict the Assyrian (or ‘Eber’, one of the progenitors of the ‘Hebrews’) (the Daniel 8 Little Horn) in Daniel 11:30. Then the ‘messiah’ comes, the ‘star comes out of Jacob’ to defeat Edom, Moab, and Ammon (Num 24:17).

These three countries, Edom, Moab, and Ammon, are the three horns that are plucked up by the Daniel 7 Little Horn, who is the imitation ‘star’ (the ‘Lucifer’/ ‘morning star’ which is the same term that Jesus insists he is, instead of this imitator) (‘stars’ can mean ‘angels’ – hence the ‘man in linen’ and Rev 10 ‘mighty angel’). It is important to note here that Daniel 11:29-45 functions as a decoy Armageddon whereby Israel is saved out of it by the ‘man in linen’, the Rev 10 ‘Mighty Angel, the Daniel 7 Little Horn. (Remember that the Psalm 83 ten nation coalition is comprised of Assyria (who is attacked by Kittim), Tyre (an angel who calls himself a god in Ezek 28), and Edom, Moab, and Ammon (along with five others).

Dan 7:8 While I was contemplating the horns, suddenly another horn, a little one, came up among them, and three of the first horns were uprooted before it. This horn had eyes like those of a man and a mouth that spoke words of arrogance.

19 Then I wanted to know the true meaning of the fourth beast, which was different from all the others—extremely terrifying—devouring and crushing with iron teeth and bronze claws, then trampling underfoot whatever was left. 20 I also wanted to know about the ten horns on its head and the other horn that came up, before which three of them fell—the horn whose appearance was more imposing than the others, with eyes and with a mouth that spoke words of arrogance. 21 As I watched, this horn was waging war against the saints and prevailing against them, 22 until the Ancient of Days arrived and pronounced judgment in favor of the saints of the Most High, and the time came for them to possess the kingdom.

23 This is what he said: ‘The fourth beast is a fourth kingdom that will appear on the earth, different from all the other kingdoms, and it will devour the whole earth, trample it down, and crush it. 24 And the ten horns are ten kings who will rise from this kingdom. After them another king, different from the earlier ones, will rise and subdue three kings. 25 He will speak out against the Most High and oppress the saints of the Most High, intending to change the appointed times and laws; and the saints will be given into his hand for a time, and times, and half a time.

When the 10 horns only have seven crowns (as we see in Revelation 12:3), the Daniel 7 Little Horn plucks up the 3 horns (Edom, Moab, and Ammon – 3 countries that are part of the 10 nation coalition in Psalm 83) as part of the messianic expectations to imitate the ‘star’ that defeats Edom, Moab, and Ammon. The ten horns are given ten crowns at the 7th Trumpet with the Beast from the Sea (Rev 13:1).

Dan 11:42 He will extend his power over many countries, and not even the land of Egypt will escape. 43 He will gain control of the treasures of gold and silver and over all the riches of Egypt, and the Libyans and Cushites will also submit to him.

As part of the messianic expectations, a ‘horn springs up’ that will defeat Egypt. First, it is the Daniel 8 Little Horn that is ‘defeating Egypt’, then it will be the Daniel 7 Little Horn defeating the Daniel 8 Little Horn.

Ezek 29:20 I have given him the land of Egypt as his payment for which he labored, because they worked for me, declares the Lord God.​

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21“On that day I will cause a horn to spring up for the house of Israel, and I will open your lips among them. Then they will know that I am the Lord.”​

Dan 11:44 But news from the east and the north will alarm him, and he will go out with great fury to destroy many and devote them to destruction.

The four angels of the Euphrates in the 6th Trumpet (Rev 9:14) are ‘from the east’. The north that ‘alarms him’ seems to refer to Babylon – the king of Babylon is Lucifer/ Morning star (Isa 14:4-12) (the ‘star’ being the Revelation 10 mighty angel and Daniel 7 Little Horn) who will bring the war to an end and then confirm the covenant.

45 He will pitch his royal tabernacle between the sea and the beautiful holy mountain, but he will meet his end with no one to help him.

Another messianic expectation is that the ‘branch’ (the messiah descended from David) will build the temple (Zech 6:12). It seems to be that the Daniel 8 Little Horn will be destroying a temple in Jerusalem (via the abomination in Dan 11:31) and installing his own tabernacle.

Daniel 12

1 “At that time Michael, the great prince who stands watch over your people, will rise up. There will be a time of distress, the likes of which will not have occurred from the beginning of nations until that time. But at that time your people—everyone whose name is found written in the book—will be delivered.

The 6th Trumpet starts the Daniel 12:11 1290 days countdown and the start of the great tribulation, the unparallelled ‘time of distress’ that is cut short to under thirty days.

Matt 24:22 If those days had not been cut short, nobody would be saved. But for the sake of the elect, those days will be cut short.​

23 At that time, if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Christ!’ or ‘There He is!’ do not believe it. 24 For false Christs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and wonders that would deceive even the elect, if that were possible.​

The Daniel 8 Little Horn is the one responsible for this particular section of ‘great tribulation’ that is cut short – then ‘false Christs will appear’ which refers to the Daniel 7 Little Horn, who is Lucifer, who is the Revelation 10 Mighty Angel, who is the ‘dragon’ who ‘deceives the world’.

Dan 12:2 And many who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake, some to everlasting life, but others to shame and everlasting contempt. 3 Then the wise will shine like the brightness of the heavens, and those who lead many to righteousness will shine like the stars forever and ever. 4 But you, Daniel, shut up these words and seal the book until the time of the end. Many will roam to and fro, and knowledge will increase.” 5 Then I, Daniel, looked and saw two others standing there, one on this bank of the river and one on the opposite bank. 6 One of them said to the man dressed in linen, who was above the waters of the river, “How long until the fulfillment of these wonders?”

Dan 12:7 And the man dressed in linen, who was above the waters of the river, raised his right hand and his left hand toward heaven, and I heard him swear by Him who lives forever, saying, “It will be for a time, and times, and half a time. When the power of the holy people has finally been shattered, all these things will be completed.”

Again, this ‘man in linen’ is the same as the Revelation 10 mighty angel who is swearing an oath (Rev 10:5-6). This ‘time, times, and half a time’ is the same as the 2 witnesses 1260 days (Rev 11:3) and is the same as the ‘time, times, and half a time’ of Daniel 7:25 (which is to say, the 1st half of the 7 year covenant that the Daniel 7 Little Horn is confirming).

Dan 12:8 I heard, but I did not understand. So I asked, “My lord, what will be the outcome of these things?” 9 “Go on your way, Daniel,” he replied, “for the words are closed up and sealed until the time of the end. 10 Many will be purified, made spotless, and refined, but the wicked will continue to act wickedly. None of the wicked will understand, but the wise will understand. 11 And from the time the daily sacrifice is abolished and the abomination of desolation set up, there will be 1,290 days.

The 1290 days ends at the 7th Trumpet, the middle of the 7 year covenant.

12 Blessed is he who waits and reaches the end of the 1,335 days. 13 But as for you, go on your way until the end. You will rest, and will arise to your inheritance at the end of the days.”

The 1335 days ends with the destruction of the Beast from the Sea and Earth.​

 

[Douggg]

The 1290 days ends at the 7th Trumpet, the middle of the 7 year covenant.


The 1335 days ends with the destruction of the Beast from the Sea and Earth.

The part in red, the 1335 days - you are correct. On the day that Jesus returns.

The 1290 days and the 1335 days are measured from when the AoD is setup.

The 1290 days ends 45 days before Jesus return. The 7th trumpet will take place near the end of the 45 days.



AoD setup .......................................1290 days.................. Sign of the Son of Man in heaven........45 days......................Jesus returns.

1290 days + 45 days = 1335 days.

During the 45 days, the kings of the earth will gather their armies to make war on Jesus and his army. Revelation 16:14-16. Revelation 19;19. Read those two passages.

 

[tranquil]

The part in red, the 1335 days - you are correct. On the day that Jesus returns.

The 1290 days and the 1335 days are measured from when the AoD is setup.

The 1290 days ends 45 days before Jesus return. The 7th trumpet will take place near the end of the 45 days.



AoD setup .......................................1290 days.................. Sign of the Son of Man in heaven........45 days......................Jesus returns.

1290 days + 45 days = 1335 days.

During the 45 days, the kings of the earth will gather their armies to make war on Jesus and his army. Revelation 16:14-16. Revelation 19;19. Read those two passages.

There are 2 abomination of desolation events - which is the whole point of looking at Daniel 11.

The Daniel 8 Little Horn attacks Israel twice (which starts Daniel 9:26). The 1st time results in the 'forces surrounding Jerusalem' (which are the locusts of the 5th Trumpet).

The 2nd attack is the placement of the abomination of desolation idol (at the 6th Trumpet).

After the 2nd attack (ending at Rev 9:21), the Daniel 7 Little Horn (the Revelation 10 'mighty angel') ends that current attack via confirming the Daniel 9:27 covenant.

It's the Daniel 7 Little Horn that confirms the covenant, not the Daniel 8 Little Horn. It's the Daniel 7 Little Horn that breaks the covenant. With the breaking of the covenant at the 7th Trumpet, he gives his throne to ... the Daniel 8 Little Horn.

 

[tranquil]

The part in red, the 1335 days - you are correct. On the day that Jesus returns.

The 1290 days and the 1335 days are measured from when the AoD is setup.

The 1290 days ends 45 days before Jesus return. The 7th trumpet will take place near the end of the 45 days.



AoD setup .......................................1290 days.................. Sign of the Son of Man in heaven........45 days......................Jesus returns.

1290 days + 45 days = 1335 days.

During the 45 days, the kings of the earth will gather their armies to make war on Jesus and his army. Revelation 16:14-16. Revelation 19;19. Read those two passages.

There are two abomination of desolation events:

The 1st abomination idol violates the (Mosaic) covenant of God and is the cause of Israel’s scattering. Once they are scattered and forced to go into a foreign land, then another part of that same punishment is the arrival of a 2nd abomination idol. Let’s see this in action in Deuteronomy and then we will see this perfectly illustrated in Hosea 10 and Zechariah 5.

First, there is the sin of idolatry (in Deut 4:23 below). Then they are punished with another idol.

Deut 4:23 Be careful that you do not forget the covenant of the LORD your God that He made with you; do not make an idol for yourselves in the form of anything He has forbidden you. 24 For the LORD your God is a consuming fire, a jealous God.​

​

25 After you have children and grandchildren and you have been in the land a long time, if you then act corruptly and make an idol of any form—doing evil in the sight of the LORD your God and provoking Him to anger— 26 I call heaven and earth as witnesses against you this day that you will quickly perish from the land that you are crossing the Jordan to possess. You will not live long upon it, but will be utterly destroyed.​

​

27 Then the LORD will scatter you among the peoples, and only a few of you will survive among the nations to which the LORD will drive you. 28 And there you will serve man-made gods of wood and stone, which cannot see or hear or eat or smell.​

​

​

One idol causes the arrival of another idol in the foreign land. The Revelation 13:14-15 living image idol is this second idol for punishment that is occurring in Mystery Babylon (Rev 17:1-18).

Here is the pattern again in Deut 28. If Israel sins (via idolatry), then they will get the curses for disobedience. One of these curses is being sent into a foreign land (having been scattered) and then they will serve man-made idols of wood and stone.

If:

Deut 28:15 If, however, you do not obey the LORD your God by carefully following all His commandments and statutes I am giving you today, all these curses will come upon you and overtake you:​

Then:

Deut 28:36 The LORD will bring you and the king you appoint to a nation neither you nor your fathers have known, and there you will worship other gods—gods of wood and stone. 37 You will become an object of horror, scorn, and ridicule among all the nations to which the LORD will drive you.​

Here is a simple illustration of this principle from Hosea 10. ‘Samaria’ refers to the land of the northern 10 tribes of Israel and ‘Ephraim’ refers to the people of this group. First, there is the causative idol (here it is the ‘calf of Beth-aven’), then it is taken into a foreign land (Assyria in this case) for them to worship there.

Hosea 10:5 The people of Samaria will fear for the calf of Beth-aven. Indeed, its people will mourn with its idolatrous priests— those who rejoiced in its glory— for it has been taken from them into exile. 6 Yes, it will be carried to Assyria as tribute to the great king. Ephraim will be seized with shame; Israel will be ashamed of its wooden idols. 7 Samaria will be carried off with her king like a twig on the surface of the water. 8 The high places of Aven will be destroyed— it is the sin of Israel; thorns and thistles will overgrow their altars. Then they will say to the mountains, “Cover us!” and to the hills, “Fall on us!”​

Here is another example from Amos 5. The Israelites are taking their gods Sakkuth and Kaiwan from the wilderness, to Israel, and then into their exile.

Amos 5:25 Did you bring Me sacrifices and offerings forty years in the wilderness, O house of Israel? 26 You have taken along Sakkuth your king and Kaiwan your star god, the idols you made for yourselves. 27 Therefore I will send you into exile beyond Damascus,” says the LORD, whose name is the God of Hosts.​

Now let’s see another illustration of this principle in Zechariah 5:1-4, we see a ‘flying scroll’ that gives out curses. It is this ‘scroll’ that contains the Mosaic covenant that when broken will result in the punishment of the 7 Trumpets or the 7 bowls of wrath (in other words, the Daniel 9:27 covenant). This scroll is very large, containing many curses for disobedience – the extensive curses listed in Deuteronomy written upon scrolls.

Zechariah 5:1 Again I lifted my eyes and saw, and behold, a flying scroll! 2 And he said to me, “What do you see?” I answered, “I see a flying scroll. Its length is twenty cubits, and its width ten cubits.”​

Zech 5:3 Then he said to me, “This is the curse that goes out over the face of the whole land. For everyone who steals shall be cleaned out according to what is on one side, and everyone who swears falsely shall be cleaned out according to what is on the other side. 4 I will send it out, declares the Lord of hosts, and it shall enter the house of the thief, and the house of him who swears falsely by my name. And it shall remain in his house and consume it, both timber and stones.”​

​

5 Then the angel who talked with me came forward and said to me, “Lift your eyes and see what this is that is going out.” 6 And I said, “What is it?” He said, “This is the basket that is going out.” And he said, “This is their iniquity in all the land.” 7 And behold, the leaden cover was lifted, and there was a woman sitting in the basket! 8 And he said, “This is Wickedness.” And he thrust her back into the basket, and thrust down the leaden weight on its opening.​

The basket filled with the iniquity and wickedness of Jerusalem is leaving. It is this 1st sin that is the cause of the next idol – this idol is leaving Jerusalem and going to Mystery Babylon (‘to the land of Shinar’ – Shinar being synonymous with Babylon due to Shinar being the location of the Tower of Babel.) (We can infer that it is an idol because the basket is ‘set upon a base’ and put into a ‘house’ just as an idol would be set on a pedestal and put into a temple. Moreover, this whole scene is a parody of the ark of the covenant: the angels of the mercy seat on the ark [Exodus 25:14-22] mirror the two women with [unclean] stork wings [Lev 11:19] lifting an ark-like container to be placed in a holy place. )

Zech 5:9 Then I lifted my eyes and saw, and behold, two women coming forward! The wind was in their wings. They had wings like the wings of a stork, and they lifted up the basket between earth and heaven. 10 Then I said to the angel who talked with me, “Where are they taking the basket?” 11 He said to me, “To the land of Shinar, to build a house for it. And when this is prepared, they will set the basket down there on its base.”​

When we look at this principle described in the Olivet Discourse, we see that the ‘abomination of desolation’ is singular – a singular Greek ‘abomination’ (‘bdelugma’) and a singular Greek ‘desolation’ (‘eremosis’). This particular abomination of desolation happens in the holy place in ‘Judea’, the land of Judah whose holy place would be Jerusalem.

Matt 24:15 “So when you see the abomination of desolation spoken of by the prophet Daniel, standing in the holy place (let the reader understand), 16 then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains.

Once they are scattered by fleeing, then they will either stay in the foreign land to worship idols of wood and stone or be gathered (Matt 24:29-31).

Deut 4:27 Then the LORD will scatter you among the peoples, and only a few of you will survive among the nations to which the LORD will drive you. 28 And there you will serve man-made gods of wood and stone, which cannot see or hear or eat or smell.​

This ‘foreign land’ worship of idols would constitute this 2nd instance of an abomination of desolation occurring.

 

[Douggg]

There are two abomination of desolation events:

No there is just one abomination of desolation setup in Daniel 12:11-12.

The rest of you post is too complex and lengthy to understand.

 

[Douggg]

There are 2 abomination of desolation events - which is the whole point of looking at Daniel 11.

The Daniel 8 Little Horn attacks Israel twice (which starts Daniel 9:26). The 1st time results in the 'forces surrounding Jerusalem' (which are the locusts of the 5th Trumpet).

The 2nd attack is the placement of the abomination of desolation idol (at the 6th Trumpet).

After the 2nd attack (ending at Rev 9:21), the Daniel 7 Little Horn (the Revelation 10 'mighty angel') ends that current attack via confirming the Daniel 9:27 covenant.

It's the Daniel 7 Little Horn that confirms the covenant, not the Daniel 8 Little Horn. It's the Daniel 7 Little Horn that breaks the covenant. With the breaking of the covenant at the 7th Trumpet, he gives his throne to ... the Daniel 8 Little Horn.

View attachment 363128

Your chart is confusing.


Here is a table I made. Less confusing.

 

[tranquil]

No there is just one abomination of desolation setup in Daniel 12:11-12.

The rest of you post is too complex and lengthy to understand.

It doesn't say that there is one, does it?

Dan 12:11 And from the time the daily sacrifice is abolished and the abomination of desolation set up, there will be 1,290 days.

The second one is the 'mystery of God that is fulfilled at the 7th Trumpet'.

Rev 10:7 but that in the days of the trumpet call to be sounded by the seventh angel, the mystery of God would be fulfilled, just as he announced to his servants the prophets.​

 

[tranquil]

Your chart is confusing.


Here is a table I made. Less confusing.


View attachment 363129

The 'time, times, half a time' of Dan 7:25 is the 'time, times, half time' of Dan 12:7. Same as the 1260 days of the 2 witnesses. This is the first half of the covenant of Dan 9:27 that starts at Rev 10:6.

The angel speaking the 'time, times, half time' in Dan 12:7 is the same exact angel as the Rev 10 mighty angel. He is swearing an oath and confirming the Dan 9:27 covenant.

Rev 12:14's 'time, times, half time' and 12:6's 1260 days are the 2nd half which begins at the 7th Trumpet. The 42 months of Rev 13:5 is the 2nd half and is dramatically cut short - to 45 days.

 

[Douggg]

It doesn't say that there is one, does it?

Dan 12:11 And from the time the daily sacrifice is abolished and the abomination of desolation set up, there will be 1,290 days.

The second one is the 'mystery of God that is fulfilled at the 7th Trumpet'.

Rev 10:7 but that in the days of the trumpet call to be sounded by the seventh angel, the mystery of God would be fulfilled, just as he announced to his servants the prophets.​

The mystery of God is not an abomination of desolation. The mystery of God to be fulfilled in the days of the seventh angel's trumpet is the removal of the nations of the earth from being under Satan's interference to lead them astray to sin, do evil, and war.

When the seventh angel sounds, them in heaven rejoice that the kingdoms of this world have become the kingdoms of our Lord and His Christ. Revelation 11:15.

 

[Douggg]

View attachment 363128

What is the title of your chart ? Is it supposed to be a timeline chart ?

Show day 1, the beginning of the seven years as the left boundary. And day 2520 of the seven years, the day that Jesus returns, as the right boundary.

Like these timeline charts.... day 1 and day 2520 are on all of them.

 

[tranquil]

The mystery of God is not an abomination of desolation. The mystery of God to be fulfilled in the days of the seventh angel's trumpet is the removal of the nations of the earth from being under Satan's interference to lead them astray to sin, do evil, and war.

When the seventh angel sounds, them in heaven rejoice that the kingdoms of this world have become the kingdoms of our Lord and His Christ. Revelation 11:15.

The mystery of God to be fulfilled in the days of the seventh angel's trumpet is the removal of the nations of the earth from being under Satan's interference to lead them astray to sin, do evil, and war.

This is exactly correct.

And the beasts from the sea & earth are in opposition to the kingdom of heaven.

It is this portion that has to be disposed of.

Matt 13:36 Then Jesus dismissed the crowds and went into the house. His disciples came to Him and said, “Explain to us the parable of the weeds in the field.” 37 He replied, “The One who sows the good seed is the Son of Man. 38 The field is the world, and the good seed represents the sons of the kingdom. The weeds are the sons of the evil one, 39 and the enemy who sows them is the devil. The harvest is the end of the age, and the harvesters are angels. ​

40 As the weeds are collected and burned in the fire, so will it be at the end of the age. 41 The Son of Man will send out His angels, and they will weed out of His kingdom every cause of sin and all who practice lawlessness. 42 And they will throw them into the fiery furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. 43 Then the righteous will shine like the sun in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears, let him hear.​

​

47 Once again, the kingdom of heaven is like a net that was cast into the sea and caught all kinds of fish. 48 When it was full, the men pulled it ashore. Then they sat down and sorted the good fish into containers, but threw the bad away.​

​

49 So will it be at the end of the age: The angels will come and separate the wicked from the righteous, 50 and throw them into the fiery furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.​

​

How do you think the angels separate the wicked from the righteous?

The mark of the beast is how the tares are bound to be burned and how the weeds are taken out of the kingdom of heaven.

People willfully choose the mark and then they will be removed from the kingdom of heaven that started at the 7th Trumpet. (The mark is in conjunction with worshiping the abomination idol in Babylon.)

 

[Jamdoc]

Now that it can be plausibly said that the Daniel 8 Little Horn is this ‘despicable person’ of Daniel 11:21, let’s turn our attention to Daniel 11 and try to put these ideas into some more context.

______________​

One of the many difficulties with Daniel 11 is knowing when a thing is happening. Are we to understand the four kings of Persia and the mighty king of Greece as happening in the same eschatological timeframe, as happening in the end-times? Luckily here, we know from Daniel 8 that we are to understand this as ancient history. The mighty king of Greece who has his kingdom split into four component parts is referring to Alexander the Great circa 336 BC.

I kinda have to record scratch and stop here.

No Daniel 8 is not about Ancient History. Ancient History foreshadowed what Daniel 8 was about, but Gabriel said the vision of the Ram and the Goat are an end times vision

Daniel 8

15 And it came to pass, when I, even I Daniel, had seen the vision, and sought for the meaning, then, behold, there stood before me as the appearance of a man.
16 And I heard a man's voice between the banks of Ulai, which called, and said, Gabriel, make this man to understand the vision.
17 So he came near where I stood: and when he came, I was afraid, and fell upon my face: but he said unto me, Understand, O son of man: for at the time of the end shall be the vision.

Gabriel explains this vision, the vision of the Ram and the Goat, are at the time of the end.

18 Now as he was speaking with me, I was in a deep sleep on my face toward the ground: but he touched me, and set me upright.
19 And he said, Behold, I will make thee know what shall be in the last end of the indignation: for at the time appointed the end shall be.

Now people will try and handwave this away and say "oh Gabriel was just saying there's an appointed time of the end.
But no. Gabriel was saying he would explain what would happen in the end times. First saying that the vision of the Ram and the he Goat was an end times vision, then saying he would explain what happens after that.

People think that Daniel 7 is a recap of Daniel 2's vision. It's not. Daniel understood the Daniel 2 vision, but he was terrified because he did NOT understand the Daniel 7 vision, similarly in Daniel 8. Even with explanation by an Angel, Daniel did not understand the Ram and the he Goat vision. The vision made him fall ill because he did not understand it.

27 And I Daniel fainted, and was sick certain days; afterward I rose up, and did the king's business; and I was astonished at the vision, but none understood it.

Daniel's later visions are all more accurately about the end times not about ancient history. Daniel 8 talks about the "first king" well Alexander III the 23rd king of Macedonia...

anyway I've seen all the people try to handwave away and still try to think it's about ancient history but if you want a rundown of the end times, read Daniel 7-12
the book is sealed till the time of the end and may still be sealed as far as we know, take all historical interpretations of Daniel with a grain of salt because they were all interpreting a sealed book. We might still be interpreting a sealed book but it's the best layout of events leading towards the final indignation we have.

 

[tranquil]

I kinda have to record scratch and stop here.

No Daniel 8 is not about Ancient History. Ancient History foreshadowed what Daniel 8 was about, but Gabriel said the vision of the Ram and the Goat are an end times vision

Daniel 8

Gabriel explains this vision, the vision of the Ram and the Goat, are at the time of the end.



Now people will try and handwave this away and say "oh Gabriel was just saying there's an appointed time of the end.
But no. Gabriel was saying he would explain what would happen in the end times. First saying that the vision of the Ram and the he Goat was an end times vision, then saying he would explain what happens after that.

People think that Daniel 7 is a recap of Daniel 2's vision. It's not. Daniel understood the Daniel 2 vision, but he was terrified because he did NOT understand the Daniel 7 vision, similarly in Daniel 8. Even with explanation by an Angel, Daniel did not understand the Ram and the he Goat vision. The vision made him fall ill because he did not understand it.



Daniel's later visions are all more accurately about the end times not about ancient history. Daniel 8 talks about the "first king" well Alexander III the 23rd king of Macedonia...

anyway I've seen all the people try to handwave away and still try to think it's about ancient history but if you want a rundown of the end times, read Daniel 7-12
the book is sealed till the time of the end and may still be sealed as far as we know, take all historical interpretations of Daniel with a grain of salt because they were all interpreting a sealed book. We might still be interpreting a sealed book but it's the best layout of events leading towards the final indignation we have.

I am totally open to Dan 8 being entirely future...

My position right now is that the 2300 days is the future portion... I am not handwaving anything away. Revelation is describing this 2300 days portion: time amounts in it add to 2300 days.

I do distinguish between Dan 7 & 2.

So what exactly do you have a problem with?

Does Dan 8's ram & goat correlate to Dan 11's Persia & Greece? Does the Goat's great horn correlate to Dan 11:3's 'mighty king'?

Is Dan 11 historical and Dan 8 latter days?

Is Dan 11:21's 'despicable person' the Daniel 8 Little Horn or not?

Are you saying that the Dan 11:3's 'mighty king' is the Dan 8's goat's great horn?

We've got to start somewhere here.

 

[Douggg]

I am totally open to Dan 8 being entirely future...

My position right now is that the 2300 days is the future portion... I am not handwaving anything away. Revelation is describing this 2300 days portion: time amounts in it add to 2300 days.

I do distinguish between Dan 7 & 2.

So what exactly do you have a problem with?

Does Dan 8's ram & goat correlate to Dan 11's Persia & Greece? Does the Goat's great horn correlate to Dan 11:3's 'mighty king'?

Is Dan 11 historical and Dan 8 latter days?

Is Dan 11:21's 'despicable person' the Daniel 8 Little Horn or not?

Are you saying that the Dan 11:3's 'mighty king' is the Dan 8's goat's great horn?

We've got to start somewhere here.

The way to interpret Daniel 8 is to place everything done by the little horn as time of the end.

So in Daniel 8:9 when he heads south and east toward Israel and the middle east with a strong army is time of the end.

When the animals sacrifices are started again is time of the end

When the little horn stops the animal sacrifices is time of the end

When the little horn attempts to stand up against the Prince of princes - Jesus - is time of the end.

 

[Jamdoc]

I am totally open to Dan 8 being entirely future...

My position right now is that the 2300 days is the future portion... I am not handwaving anything away. Revelation is describing this 2300 days portion: time amounts in it add to 2300 days.

I do distinguish between Dan 7 & 2.

So what exactly do you have a problem with?

Just the generally accepted position that Daniel 8 and 11 in particular are about Ancient History. I see them as foreshadowed by history with a more 100% fulfillment in the future.

Your initial statement of "Luckily here, we know from Daniel 8 that we are to understand this as ancient history. The mighty king of Greece who has his kingdom split into four component parts is referring to Alexander the Great circa 336 BC." is where I feel a need to jump in and bring into play Gabriel saying it was an end times vision.

I'm perfectly fine with accepting Alexander as a foreshadow, just not the primary fulfillment.

Does Dan 8's ram & goat correlate to Dan 11's Persia & Greece? Does the Goat's great horn correlate to Dan 11:3's 'mighty king'?

I believe so

Is Dan 11 historical and Dan 8 latter days?

I think both are latter days, with history giving a foreshadow, there are details in the passages that I find "close but no cigar" and God does not make historical errors, so I view that as "history was not the primary fulfillment, this will be fulfilled perfectly in the future, and we will be in awe at how the details are 100%"
Right now if I were to interpret either as historical I'd have to ignore some historical inaccuracies and make excuses and move goalposts for why these details aren't exact. IE the vile man plants his tabernacle on the glorious holy mountain (which do we both agree that is the temple mount?) and comes to his end there. But if we were to interpret Daniel 11 as being about Antiochus Epiphanes IV, he met his end in Ishfahan in Iran. That's a long way away from the temple mount.
Not to mention the number of Persian Kings is off Historically as well.

Meanwhile we're at the 2nd Persian King in our modern times since the Iranian revolution..

Is Dan 11:21's 'despicable person' the Daniel 8 Little Horn or not?

Yes, that is what I believe.

Are you saying that the Dan 11:3's 'mighty king' is the Dan 8's goat's great horn?

Yes

We've got to start somewhere here.

I think we both agree that Daniel 8 and 11 seem intertwined and are dealing with the same things just giving different details.

and we both agree that something close to the prophecy happened during Alexander the Great's Time and Antiochus' time.

I just think something more exact will happen in the future.
Aside from Gabriel just saying it's end times in the text (the most important reason I think that), and the historical inaccuracies if this was primarily a historical fulfillment.. the other reason is..
God wasn't expecting us to go into the end times blind. The bible is supposed to be our roadmap to the end times. When people interpret everything as being historical it takes away all our road signs, we're getting closer to our destination and unlike in our world where the road signs become clearer as you get closer to the destination, God put all our road signs 2000 years ago then just left us blind? The worst for this is partial preterists, who believe EVERYTHING except 2 Peter 3:10 has already been fulfilled just 1 day out of the blue God instant kills everyone and resurrects them then white throne of judgement.
Like God just wants people totally blind while Jesus said He'd tell us things beforehand so we'd know what's coming and not be panicked about it.

Because I see Daniel 8 and 11 as being primarily future with a historical foreshadow. I can use them as a roadmap. I can know that we're on King 2 out of 4 for Persia before Greece/Turkey (probably Turkey, Western Turkey/Istanbul was Greece in Ancient times) goes to war with them and crushes them, and because there's 2 horns on the Ram, and horns represent kings... it could be the 3rd and 4th Persian king co-rule.
So I can say when Khamenei dies, and gets succeeded, we're another step closer. Then if during that 3rd leader's reign there comes up a co-leader, now we're really close. Turkey goes to war with Iran? Even closer. Turkey's leader gets killed and their new empire split into 4? Even closer. The King of the North and King of the South war against each other? Closer. The King of the North dies, and gets replaced by a raiser of taxes? Closer... and his replacement.... will be the Antichrist.

It gives me something to follow, you put that all in the past and I have nothing biblical to follow except vague guesses like "revived roman empire" and "Nicoholai Carpathia" IE I have to make up things in speculation. If I have Daniel 8 and 11, I have geographic locations, and chains of succession I can follow.
I can better watch and pray as commanded when I know what I'm looking for. You can't watch for sudden out of the blue instanuke.

 

[tranquil]

Just the generally accepted position that Daniel 8 and 11 in particular are about Ancient History. I see them as foreshadowed by history with a more 100% fulfillment in the future.

Your initial statement of "Luckily here, we know from Daniel 8 that we are to understand this as ancient history. The mighty king of Greece who has his kingdom split into four component parts is referring to Alexander the Great circa 336 BC." is where I feel a need to jump in and bring into play Gabriel saying it was an end times vision.

I'm perfectly fine with accepting Alexander as a foreshadow, just not the primary fulfillment.

I believe so

I think both are latter days, with history giving a foreshadow, there are details in the passages that I find "close but no cigar" and God does not make historical errors, so I view that as "history was not the primary fulfillment, this will be fulfilled perfectly in the future, and we will be in awe at how the details are 100%"
Right now if I were to interpret either as historical I'd have to ignore some historical inaccuracies and make excuses and move goalposts for why these details aren't exact. IE the vile man plants his tabernacle on the glorious holy mountain (which do we both agree that is the temple mount?) and comes to his end there. But if we were to interpret Daniel 11 as being about Antiochus Epiphanes IV, he met his end in Ishfahan in Iran. That's a long way away from the temple mount.
Not to mention the number of Persian Kings is off Historically as well.

Meanwhile we're at the 2nd Persian King in our modern times since the Iranian revolution..

Yes, that is what I believe.

Yes


I think we both agree that Daniel 8 and 11 seem intertwined and are dealing with the same things just giving different details.

and we both agree that something close to the prophecy happened during Alexander the Great's Time and Antiochus' time.

I just think something more exact will happen in the future.
Aside from Gabriel just saying it's end times in the text (the most important reason I think that), and the historical inaccuracies if this was primarily a historical fulfillment.. the other reason is..
God wasn't expecting us to go into the end times blind. The bible is supposed to be our roadmap to the end times. When people interpret everything as being historical it takes away all our road signs, we're getting closer to our destination and unlike in our world where the road signs become clearer as you get closer to the destination, God put all our road signs 2000 years ago then just left us blind? The worst for this is partial preterists, who believe EVERYTHING except 2 Peter 3:10 has already been fulfilled just 1 day out of the blue God instant kills everyone and resurrects them then white throne of judgement.
Like God just wants people totally blind while Jesus said He'd tell us things beforehand so we'd know what's coming and not be panicked about it.

Because I see Daniel 8 and 11 as being primarily future with a historical foreshadow. I can use them as a roadmap. I can know that we're on King 2 out of 4 for Persia before Greece/Turkey (probably Turkey, Western Turkey/Istanbul was Greece in Ancient times) goes to war with them and crushes them, and because there's 2 horns on the Ram, and horns represent kings... it could be the 3rd and 4th Persian king co-rule.
So I can say when Khamenei dies, and gets succeeded, we're another step closer. Then if during that 3rd leader's reign there comes up a co-leader, now we're really close. Turkey goes to war with Iran? Even closer. Turkey's leader gets killed and their new empire split into 4? Even closer. The King of the North and King of the South war against each other? Closer. The King of the North dies, and gets replaced by a raiser of taxes? Closer... and his replacement.... will be the Antichrist.

It gives me something to follow, you put that all in the past and I have nothing biblical to follow except vague guesses like "revived roman empire" and "Nicoholai Carpathia" IE I have to make up things in speculation. If I have Daniel 8 and 11, I have geographic locations, and chains of succession I can follow.
I can better watch and pray as commanded when I know what I'm looking for. You can't watch for sudden out of the blue instanuke.

IE the vile man plants his tabernacle on the glorious holy mountain (which do we both agree that is the temple mount?) and comes to his end there.

Well, Dan 11 seems to indicate he places the abomination then plants his own tabernacle, somewhere in or near Jerusalem.

But if we were to interpret Daniel 11 as being about Antiochus Epiphanes IV, he met his end in Ishfahan in Iran. That's a long way away from the temple mount.

Dan 11 can in no way, shape, or form be Antiochus.

Because I see Daniel 8 and 11 as being primarily future with a historical foreshadow. I can use them as a roadmap. I can know that we're on King 2 out of 4 for Persia before Greece/Turkey (probably Turkey, Western Turkey/Istanbul was Greece in Ancient times) goes to war with them and crushes them, and because there's 2 horns on the Ram, and horns represent kings... it could be the 3rd and 4th Persian king co-rule.

If I were to agree that the Dan 8 Goat's Great Horn is the same as the Dan 11:3's mighty king (I don't agree, but I don't rule it out), the 4th Persian king (Dan 11:2) would be the Dan 8 Ram who is attacking the west, north, south (Dan 8:4). He would be the 4th Persian king, but also co-ruling with the Medes. The Medes/ Persian duo would form the 2 king/ 2 horns of the Ram (Dan 8:20) (one horn of which is this 4th Persian king).

Also, I don't agree with your interpretation that the count starts with the Iranian Revolution. The counting of the Persian kings would start from the start of a 'great war' (Dan 10:1).

For argument's sake, let's game out Dan 11 being entirely pertaining to now.

The 'great war' in Dan 10:1 would have to be WW I (which ended 1918).

Then we count four more kings in Persia: Reza Shah (starting Oct 1925), then Mohammad Reza Shah, then Ruhollah Khomeini, then the current king Ali Khamenei

Is this current king the richest by far (Dan 11:2)? Yes World Bank Open Data

So now we are faced with the fact that there should be an entity that can be attributed to 'Greece'. I can really only think of 2 candidates: the EU which has 4 presidents or the UK which is comprised of 4 countries that could easily devolve into its component parts of Wales, England, Scotland, and Northern Ireland. Wales' flag is a red dragon.

this would mean: Russian/ Iran attacks the West, North, and South = Dan 7 bear's 3 ribs?), then the Goat's great horn destroys Russia/ Iran. The Goat's great horn is it's '1st king' (Dan 8:21). If it is the UK, how would King Charles be considered its '1st king'? It just doesn't fit well - there are many UK monarchs. So then we go with the EU... the EU could have a dictator or Holy Roman Emperor. During wartime, this new Roman Emperor is called into existence and is disbanded upon defeating Russian/ Iran.

The EU then splits into 4 units, one of which the Dan 8 Little Horn will arise from.

Now we have to explain what the heck Dan 11:5-20 means- which could mean anything...

To insist on this interpretation would push the 'latter days' back possibly decades -which just doesn't seem likely. If Russia/ Iran started attacking the West, North, and South (the attack of the Ram) - this would trigger the sense of the end of the world described in the 6th Seal. I just don't see any way around this.

In other words I think it is most likely that Dan 8's Ram & Goat would be future, but Dan 11's Persia & Greece would be past. (This would skip over Dan 11:5-20.)

Moreover, Trump initiating the tariffs globally is such a signal for Daniel 11:20, the 'taxer for the glory of the kingdom' (tariffs are taxes), it's crazy. But that would mean that the US is the kingdom of the North, which doesn't really fit well geographically...

Trump taking over Gaza could fulfill Dan 11:15-16, king of the North taking over a fortified city in the Beautiful Land (Israel). This would really not fit the scenario of Dan 11:1-20 being future...

 

[Douggg]

@Jamdoc
@tranquil

Parts of Daniel 11 are historic. And parts of Daniel 11 are end times.

Daniel 11:31 is historic attributed to Antiochus IV. It prefigures what the end time abomination of desolation will be.

Daniel 11:35 transitions to the end times. Daniel 11:36-45 is end times. In Daniel 11:45, the beast king will meet his end on the temple mount in Jerusalem.

Daniel 11:45 And he shall plant the tabernacles of his palace between the seas in the glorious holy mountain; yet he shall come to his end, and none shall help him.

The temple mount is where the beast king will meet his end. On that day of his end, Jesus will cast him and the false prophet into the lake of fire.

Between the seas is talking about the Mediterranean sea, the sea of Galilee, and the Dead sea.