Cross and Flame

[Bostonian]

I have not had a lot of exposure to the United Methodist cross and flame logo up until now, so I looked up the meaning of it. The cross obviously represents Christ and it says the flame represents the Holy Spirit.

I was looking at a large flag today at church that had the cross and flame on it, and I was reflecting on it. To be honest, the flame didn't make me think of the Holy Spirit, but instead of Hell. Has that ever crossed anybody else's mind? Aren't flames usually associated with Hell?

Just wonderin'.

 

[Qyöt27]

I wouldn't say usually associated with Hell, there's many times in Scripture where fire is directly associated with God, Heaven, and so on. The burning bush, Pentecost*, angels having flaming swords and/or tongues, etc. Purification in general is often linked with fire imagery.

*which I believe is where the connection with the Cross and Flame is, IIRC.

 

[ContraMundum]

A friend of mine once saw that and said "Is that the KKK church insignia? A burning cross?"

 

[crishmael]

I'm not a Methodist, but I've always thought their logo was really unique. I didn't necessarily think of hell fire when I saw it, but that could be 'cuz I grew up Pentecostal where fire and God were glued at the hip.

 

[Zoness]

I personally really like the logo but in my experience all of my "hellfire preaching" problems started in Baptist churches so by the time I got to a welcoming Methodist church, whatever the logo looked like to me really didn't mean much.

 

[revanneosl]

A friend of mine once saw that and said "Is that the KKK church insignia? A burning cross?"

That's exactly what my dad said when mom came home from Annual Conference in 1969 with the new logo! It really is quite an unfortunate juxtoposition.

 

[Holyroller125]

Pentecost Tongues and the Holy Ghost

I wouldn't say usually associated with Hell, there's many times in Scripture where fire is directly associated with God, Heaven, and so on. The burning bush, Pentecost*, angels having flaming swords and/or tongues, etc. Purification in general is often linked with fire imagery.

Anyone that reads the early history of the Methodist church, the revivals had the language and experience of the Baptism of the Holy Ghost. Some members did speak in tongues. It is amazing how the Holy Spirit, tongues, Pentecost, and flames all go together. Some of us in the Methodist church need to revisit our heritage and look into the experience of Pentecost, tongues, and the Holy Ghost. I am not saying one will go to HELL if they do not speak in tongues. I am saying we need to have Biblical faith as the essence and evidence of real Christains.

*which I believe is where the connection with the Cross and Flame is, IIRC.

I'm not a Methodist, but I've always thought their logo was really unique. I didn't necessarily think of hell fire when I saw it, but that could be 'cuz I grew up Pentecostal where fire and God were glued at the hip.

I was an ordained Apostolic Pentecostal elder. Yet, the Methodist were the first to speak in tongues, coin the phrase the Baptism in the Holy Ghost (e.g., John Fletcher, John Wesley's counterpart). The Pentecostals will lie and say the Baptism of the Holy Ghost began again at Azusa Street, but this is historically a lie. The truth about institutionalized Pentecostal History. William J. Seymour and Charles Fox Parham were both Methodist ministers. They received the Baptism of the Holy GHost and tongues. The Pentecostal Movement may have began the process to become institutionalized. Unfortunately, some of the "institutionalized Pentecostal" preachers got real cut-throat towards each other adn William J. Seymour. As a result, William J. Seymour got away from "evidencal tongues" doctrine as ascribed by "institutionalized Pentecostal churches." Reason why, Seymour realized that perfect love towards God and neighbor is the real ongoing evidence. In essence, Seymour went back to the main doctrine taught by Methodist. One exewrcises perfect love towards neighbor without legislating one experience or just making tongues the required evidence. Methodist do it and speak in tongues, but tongues is not a "check yourself at the door" mentality like the Pentecostal churches. Methodist have a more healthy, developed, and mature view of the Baptism of the Holy Ghost and tongues than institutionalized Pentecostals.

I personally really like the logo but in my experience all of my "hellfire preaching" problems started in Baptist churches so by the time I got to a welcoming Methodist church, whatever the logo looked like to me really didn't mean much.

Yes, I can relate with your experience. I too went to an Independent Fundamental Baptist (IFB) growing up. I know what it is like. Methodist make me feel more at home. Methodist have more healthy churches, theology, and pastors.

All The Best,
Holyroller125

 

[Redheadedstepchild]

I think some Pentecostal denominations also use the flame...

This one is from the International Pentecostal Holiness Church - notice how the flame seems to be shaped like a dove.


These are from the Church of God:

 

[Rhamiel]

A friend of mine once saw that and said "Is that the KKK church insignia? A burning cross?"

when i was a little kid i thought the same thing, we were down in the hills of southern ohio and i thought it was something to do with the KKK

I like that the Methodist have such a nice symbol that is easy to have, it is clear enough that you can recognize it but it offers enough freedom to have a little fun with it, unlike the Christian Flag, which is a good symbol but as a flag is rather static, not a bad thing, just the nature of a flag

 

[GraceSeeker]

I have not had a lot of exposure to the United Methodist cross and flame logo up until now, so I looked up the meaning of it. The cross obviously represents Christ and it says the flame represents the Holy Spirit.

I was looking at a large flag today at church that had the cross and flame on it, and I was reflecting on it. To be honest, the flame didn't make me think of the Holy Spirit, but instead of Hell. Has that ever crossed anybody else's mind? Aren't flames usually associated with Hell?

Just wonderin'.

Already well answered above. But I just want to repeat those thoughts because I think it is important. No doubt different people can see different things in any symbol as a result of the context of their own life experiences -- some people think that when God is described as father that it makes him a monster because that is all they know of the idea of fatherhood, but that is certainly not what the Bible means when speaking of God as Father -- so, it is important to know to what the symbolic imagery of the Cross and Flame of the United Methodist logo points to. You've been able to identify the significance of the cross, the answer to identifying the significance of the flame is found in Acts 2:

1When the day of Pentecost came, they were all together in one place. 2Suddenly a sound like the blowing of a violent wind came from heaven and filled the whole house where they were sitting. 3They saw what seemed to be tongues of fire that separated and came to rest on each of them. 4All of them were filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak in other tongues as the Spirit enabled them.

It is a representation of the Holy Spirit coming upon Christ's disciples. The form of it, like some of the other denominations, is also in the shape of a stylized dove, again, a reminder of the Holy Spirit.