Creationists: how close is the Jewish Calandar to the age of the Earth?

[David Lamb]

Great.

I think everyone should at least be able to agree on this. @David Lamb @BNR32FAN

If God were not creating anything ex materia on day 3, forming that which was unformed, landforms and topography, that would force us into some precarious positions where we would be looking for things created ex nihilo on day 3.

Or even worse, we might end up in a bizarre position where we deny that God creates anything at all during at least some of the 6 days of creation.

If God isn't creating anything, not even topography, during day 3, we would end up with God creating everything on day 1, then not creating anything on any other day of the 6 days.

So God would speak. Things would happen, God would say "it was good" but as it turns out, God wasn't actually creating anything.

Genesis 1:3-5, 9-12 ESV
[3] And God said, “Let there be light,” and there was light. [4] And God saw that the light was good. And God separated the light from the darkness. [5] God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And there was evening and there was morning, the first day.

And God said, and something happened, and it was good. The verse never actually says that God made something, but we still consider this an act of creation.


[9] And God said, “Let the waters under the heavens be gathered together into one place, and let the dry land appear.” And it was so. [10] God called the dry land Earth, and the waters that were gathered together he called Seas. And God saw that it was good.

And God said, and something happened, and it was good. The verse never actually says that God made something, but we still consider this an act of creation.

[11] And God said, “Let the earth sprout vegetation, plants yielding seed, and fruit trees bearing fruit in which is their seed, each according to its kind, on the earth.” And it was so. [12] The earth brought forth vegetation, plants yielding seed according to their own kinds, and trees bearing fruit in which is their seed, each according to its kind. And God saw that it was good.

And God said, and something happened, and it was good. The verse never actually says that God made something, but we still consider this an act of creation.

@David Lamb

Unless David, you believe that perhaps God never actually created light, or that sometimes God doesn't actually create anything, depending on the day. Though this view would arguably contradict verse 2:1. It's just not intuitive that there would be 6 days of creation but that God wasn't actually creating anything during some of those days.

The alternative is accepting, at the very least, that God is actually creating something, during each day.

Yes, I think I falsely implied that God didn't create anything on the third day. What I should have said was that God didn't create anything ex nihilo on Day 3, but that in no way means that all His creative activity was ex materia. I am sorry for my earlier muddled message. I hope this one is clearer, even if you don't agree with it.

 

[Job 33:6]

Ex materia is a really really bad doctrine. Why would even go there? You do understand what you’re implying with that?

I'm not speaking of doctrine. When God created topography, he was creating, with use of pre existing materials.

You don't have to call it ex materia if you don't want. If you would prefer, I can start calling it "molding".

 

[David Lamb]

I'm not speaking of doctrine. When God created topography, he was creating, with use of pre existing materials.

You don't have to call it ex materia if you don't want. If you would prefer, I can start calling it "molding

"Molding" would certainly be a better option for the dry land, which we are told came into being as a result of God gathering the seas, rather than making the dry land out of something else, as when He formed man from the dust.

 

[Job 33:6]

Yes, I think I falsely implied that God didn't create anything on the third day. What I should have said was that God didn't create anything ex nihilo on Day 3, but that in no way means that all His creative activity was ex materia. I am sorry for my earlier muddled message. I hope this one is clearer, even if you don't agree with it.

Sure. Ok.

I'll stop using the term "ex materia" because it seems to be making people uncomfortable and oppositional.

So, during the Genesis days, God is taking stuff. Water. Land. Air.

God, during the days of creation, is moving things around.

And in ancient Mesopotamia, ancient Egypt, Babylon, Assyria, akkadia, the land of Canaan, etc. this idea of "moving things around" was a very common and normal way that ancient peoples described creation.

So we should at least be a little suspicious that perhaps Moses was using language and ideas that his ancient audience would have understood or would have been familiar with.

It should at least begin to be a considered possiblity.

 

[Platte]

I'm not speaking of doctrine. When God created topography, he was creating, with use of pre existing materials.

You don't have to call it ex materia if you don't want. If you would prefer, I can start calling it "molding".

The heaven and the earth were created from nothing. You really need to be more honest in your approach. Your whole debate is based on that doctrine. When I asked what your reason was for making these arguments you didn’t say it’s all to support your ex materia belief. It’s causing you to deny Genesis 1:1 and definitely causing you to deny the Apostle Paul. Just my opinion but I wouldn’t go down that path. God created everything including every matter you are claiming God is using as ex materia God created that dirt. God created water and the seas. God created the heavens and the earth from nothing.

 

[Job 33:6]

And with that said, we can all now turn back to verse 1:1 for close analysis to see if it has the hallmarks of creation.

1. Does God speak in 1:1?

2. Does it say "and it was so" in 1:1?

2. Does God say "it was good" in 1:1?

3. Does it say that God made something in 1:1? (Believe it or not, many Bible translations do not say).


Oddly enough, the case for ex nihilo creation in 1:1, becomes quite ambiguous and, to be quite frank about it, the Genesis text itself just doesn't clarify.

And we then turn back to the very beginning of our conversation @David Lamb @Platte @BNR32FAN

Genesis 1:1-3 CEB
[1] When God began to create the heavens and the earth— [2] the earth was without shape or form, it was dark over the deep sea, and God’s wind swept over the waters— [3] God said, “Let there be light.” And so light appeared.

Some translations don't even give the slightest suggestion that 1:1 includes any form of creation, at all.

 

[Platte]

I'll stop using the term "ex materia" because it seems to be making people uncomfortable and oppositional.

It’s not making me uncomfortable. The impact to you is what came to my thoughts. I don’t care what you call its not a doctrine id embrace. Just my opinion. There’s no biblical support for it and the only way you can support it is to either change what the Bible says or marginalize the New Testament.

 

[David Lamb]

Sure. Ok.

I'll stop using the term "ex materia" because it seems to be making people uncomfortable and oppositional.

So, during the Genesis days, God is taking stuff. Water. Land. Air.

God, during the days of creation, is moving things around.

And in ancient Mesopotamia, ancient Egypt, Babylon, Assyria, akkadia, the land of Canaan, etc. this idea of "moving things around" was a very common and normal way that ancient peoples described creation.

So we should at least be a little suspicious that perhaps Moses was using language and ideas that his ancient audience would have understood or would have been familiar with.

It should at least begin to be a considered possiblity.

So what does Genesis say that God "moved around" on Day 1, and Day 4 (for example? We shouldn't be too concerned with what ancient Mesopotamia, ancient Egypt, Babylon, Assyria,, etc. taught about Creation. I have come across creationists who think those sort of things were perversions of what is recorded in Genesis rather than the Genesis account being based on them - I particularly remember this being said about the Epic of Gilgamesh. The idea that Moses was perhaps using the language and ideas of such tales jars with any notion that God inspired the bible writers.

 

[Platte]

And with that said, we can all now turn back to verse 1:1 for close analysis to see if it has the hallmarks of creation.

1. Does God speak in 1:1?

2. Does it say "and it was so" in 1:1?

2. Does God say "it was good" in 1:1?

3. Does it say that God made something in 1:1? (Believe it or not, many Bible translations do not say).


Oddly enough, the case for ex nihilo creation in 1:1, becomes quite ambiguous and, to be quite frank about it, the Genesis text itself just doesn't clarify.

And we then turn back to the very beginning of our conversation @David Lamb @Platte @BNR32FAN

Genesis 1:1-3 CEB
[1] When God began to create the heavens and the earth— [2] the earth was without shape or form, it was dark over the deep sea, and God’s wind swept over the waters— [3] God said, “Let there be light.” And so light appeared.

Some translations don't even give the slightest suggestion that 1:1 includes any form of creation, at all.

In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

Yeah that’s real ambiguous.
Wow. No hallmark of creation there. You thinking God is limited to a certain structure for creating is ridiculous. You noted how God created the heaven and earth in verse 1 since the verse only notes what was created not how. Take a bow for that.
How would you have created the earth - at its most basic level? You created it empty and flat. He didn’t say it was good because he wasn’t finished with heaven and earth in the first verse. When he was finished he said it was very good

 

[Job 33:6]

So what does Genesis say that God "moved around" on Day 1, and Day 4 (for example? We shouldn't be too concerned with what ancient Mesopotamia, ancient Egypt, Babylon, Assyria,, etc. taught about Creation. I have come across creationists who think those sort of things were perversions of what is recorded in Genesis rather than the Genesis account being based on them - I particularly remember this being said about the Epic of Gilgamesh. The idea that Moses was perhaps using the language and ideas of such tales jars with any notion that God inspired the bible writers.

Days 1 through 3 are the "moving around" to address tohu. Formlessness.

Days 4 through 6 are the "filling" to address bohu.

Genesis 2:1 CEB
[1] The heavens and the earth and all who live in them were completed.

1-3 = realms of the host
4-6 = host of those realms

1-4
2-5
3-6.

 

[Job 33:6]

Days 1 through 3 are the "moving around" to address tohu. Formlessness.

Days 4 through 6 are the "filling" to address bohu.

Genesis 2:1 CEB
[1] The heavens and the earth and all who live in them were completed.

1-3 = realms of the host
4-6 = host of those realms

1-4
2-5
3-6.

Day 1 the realms of light and dark - day 4, the sun moon and stars.

Day 2 the realms of the fish and birds, the waters above and below, the expanse between.

Day 3 the land, home of day 6's host. The plants and land animals.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Yes, I think I falsely implied that God didn't create anything on the third day. What I should have said was that God didn't create anything ex nihilo on Day 3, but that in no way means that all His creative activity was ex materia. I am sorry for my earlier muddled message. I hope this one is clearer, even if you don't agree with it.

We don’t know what He made the plants from on the third day. It could’ve been from nothing it could’ve been from something. I wouldn’t formulate a doctrine on the matter either way because there’s no evidence to support a doctrine either way.

 

[BNR32FAN]

And with that said, we can all now turn back to verse 1:1 for close analysis to see if it has the hallmarks of creation.

1. Does God speak in 1:1?

2. Does it say "and it was so" in 1:1?

2. Does God say "it was good" in 1:1?

3. Does it say that God made something in 1:1? (Believe it or not, many Bible translations do not say).


Oddly enough, the case for ex nihilo creation in 1:1, becomes quite ambiguous and, to be quite frank about it, the Genesis text itself just doesn't clarify.

And we then turn back to the very beginning of our conversation @David Lamb @Platte @BNR32FAN

Genesis 1:1-3 CEB
[1] When God began to create the heavens and the earth— [2] the earth was without shape or form, it was dark over the deep sea, and God’s wind swept over the waters— [3] God said, “Let there be light.” And so light appeared.

Some translations don't even give the slightest suggestion that 1:1 includes any form of creation, at all.

That’s because when God began to create the earth, the very first thing He had to do was bring it into existence.

 

[Neostarwcc]

We don’t know what He made the plants from on the third day. It could’ve been from nothing it could’ve been from something. I wouldn’t formulate a doctrine on the matter either way because there’s no evidence to support a doctrine either way.

God spoke the plants and everything else everything into existence. See Genesis 1:11-12.

It was with the power of his voice that God created the heavens and the earth and all that dwell in it.

When God is creating in Genesis 1 he says let this happen or let us do this.

 

[BNR32FAN]

God spoke the plants and everything else everything into existence. See Genesis 1:11-12.

It was with the power of his voice that God created the heavens and the earth and all that dwell in it.

When God is creating in Genesis 1 he says let this happen or let us do this.

When did God bring the earth into existence? Was it Genesis 1:1 or Genesis 1:9-10?

 

[BNR32FAN]

God spoke the plants and everything else everything into existence. See Genesis 1:11-12.

It was with the power of his voice that God created the heavens and the earth and all that dwell in it.

When God is creating in Genesis 1 he says let this happen or let us do this.

Also I told you yesterday that I wouldn’t discuss this topic in the thread anymore but after reading your reply this morning I got the impression that you didn’t mind people discussing it so that’s why I continued on this topic. If you would rather that I not discuss in this thread I will honor your wishes. God bless.

 

[Job 33:6]

Day 1 the realms of light and dark - day 4, the sun moon and stars.

Day 2 the realms of the fish and birds, the waters above and below, the expanse between.

Day 3 the land, home of day 6's host. The plants and land animals.

Or, one thing that could also be interpreted about day 1 with light is that God formed the basis of time. Hence why this realm is filled with the sun and moon for seasons and days and...

When we read Genesis day 1 in full, and it's parallel day 4, about the host of the realms of day 1, we see this:

Genesis 1:4-5, 14-18 CEB
[4] God saw how good the light was. God separated the light from the darkness. [5] God named the light Day and the darkness Night. There was evening and there was morning: the first day.
[14] God said, “Let there be lights in the dome of the sky to separate the day from the night. They will mark events, sacred seasons, days, and years. [15] They will be lights in the dome of the sky to shine on the earth.” And that’s what happened. [16] God made the stars and two great lights: the larger light to rule over the day and the smaller light to rule over the night. [17] God put them in the dome of the sky to shine on the earth, [18] to rule over the day and over the night, and to separate the light from the darkness. God saw how good it was.

Key words:
Light separated from dark (organizing or separating)

Day and night, (time) ordering of the 24 hour day perhaps.

Separation of day and night to mark events, seasons, days and years. (Time, scheduling)

The sun to rule the day, the moon to rule the night (perhaps reflecting more time or order concepts). This may be polemic against pagan cultures that worshipped the sun and moon as gods.

To separate light and dark.

So when we ask, what is God forming. It's not really a material forming like clay. But a forming perhaps of light and dark, for the purposes of the organization of time.

And I would say, that's the focus of what God is doing when God creates light. (Or something in this ballfield of ideas). @David Lamb

Psalms 74:16-17 CEB
[16] The day belongs to you! The night too! You established both the moon and the sun. [17] You set all the boundaries of the earth in place. Summer and winter? You made them!

Psalms 104:1-2, 19-24 CEB
[1] Let my whole being bless the LORD! LORD my God, how fantastic you are! You are clothed in glory and grandeur! [2] You wear light like a robe; you open the skies like a curtain.
[19] God made the moon for the seasons, and the sun too, which knows when to set. [20] You bring on the darkness and it is night, when every forest animal prowls. [21] The young lions roar for their prey, seeking their food from God. [22] When the sun rises, they gather together and lie down in their dens. [23] Then people go off to their work, to do their work until evening. [24] LORD, you have done so many things! You made them all so wisely! The earth is full of your creations!


There are lots of passages throughout the whole old testament that inform us of the events of the Genesis days. Psalm 104 and proverbs 8 are good ones. The book of job has quite a few passages as well.

 

[Job 33:6]

 

[Platte]

Or, one thing that could also be interpreted about day 1 with light is that God formed the basis of time. Hence why this realm is filled with the sun and moon for seasons and days and...

When we read Genesis day 1 in full, and it's parallel day 4, about the host of the realms of day 1, we see this:

Genesis 1:4-5, 14-18 CEB
[4] God saw how good the light was. God separated the light from the darkness. [5] God named the light Day and the darkness Night. There was evening and there was morning: the first day.
[14] God said, “Let there be lights in the dome of the sky to separate the day from the night. They will mark events, sacred seasons, days, and years. [15] They will be lights in the dome of the sky to shine on the earth.” And that’s what happened. [16] God made the stars and two great lights: the larger light to rule over the day and the smaller light to rule over the night. [17] God put them in the dome of the sky to shine on the earth, [18] to rule over the day and over the night, and to separate the light from the darkness. God saw how good it was.

Key words:
Light separated from dark (organizing or separating)

Day and night, (time) ordering of the 24 hour day perhaps.

Separation of day and night to mark events, seasons, days and years. (Time, scheduling)

The sun to rule the day, the moon to rule the night (perhaps reflecting more time or order concepts). This may be polemic against pagan cultures that worshipped the sun and moon as gods.

To separate light and dark.

So when we ask, what is God forming. It's not really a material forming like clay. But a forming perhaps of light and dark, for the purposes of the organization of time.

And I would say, that's the focus of what God is doing when God creates light. (Or something in this ballfield of ideas). @David Lamb

Psalms 74:16-17 CEB
[16] The day belongs to you! The night too! You established both the moon and the sun. [17] You set all the boundaries of the earth in place. Summer and winter? You made them!

Psalms 104:1-2, 19-24 CEB
[1] Let my whole being bless the LORD! LORD my God, how fantastic you are! You are clothed in glory and grandeur! [2] You wear light like a robe; you open the skies like a curtain.
[19] God made the moon for the seasons, and the sun too, which knows when to set. [20] You bring on the darkness and it is night, when every forest animal prowls. [21] The young lions roar for their prey, seeking their food from God. [22] When the sun rises, they gather together and lie down in their dens. [23] Then people go off to their work, to do their work until evening. [24] LORD, you have done so many things! You made them all so wisely! The earth is full of your creations!


There are lots of passages throughout the whole old testament that inform us of the events of the Genesis days. Psalm 104 and proverbs 8 are good ones. The book of job has quite a few passages as well.

What does the Apostle Paul say about all this?

“For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.”
‭‭Colossians‬ ‭1‬:‭16‬-‭17‬

When Jesus fed 5000 people - where did all the extra fish and bread come from? They didn’t come from the ground or sea

 

[Platte]

The point here is that the Earth was formless and void and present before God began creating it by giving it form.

That is fine for you to believe that but Genesis 1:1 say that God created the Earth without form and void. It doesn’t say He created it by giving it form - those are your words.
Creating the Earth without form and void is simply the earth with no topography and empty. No plants, animals, etc. it was empty. That’s a logical starting point for Earth to be when first created. God then added topography which cause the water to gather together and cause the dry land to appear. Then of course God began to add plants, animals, etc to the earth. This is what the Bible teaches us. There is no need to add or change what it is saying to fit a narrative that you may have. Yes God created the heaven and earth out of nothing. There is no value to you in thinking He didn’t.

God bless.