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Could God have forgiven and saved Judas?

JohnD70X7

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Judas was / is possessed by Satan (Luke 22:3 / John 13:26–27).
Judas hung himself in that state and went to the abyss (Acts 1:25 / Revelation 20:1–3).
He will then be thrown into the eternal lake of fire (Revelation 20:10) prepared for the devil and his followers (25:41).
 

PloverWing

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My guess is that God did forgive and save Judas.

Judas almost immediately repented of what he had done (Matthew 27). We meet other people in the Bible who were possessed or influenced by Satan or demons, and whom Jesus healed. Jesus forgave the other disciples who fled or even denied him that terrible night. And, most importantly, Jesus was, on that very occasion, dying to take away the sins of the world (John 1:29, II Corinthians 5:19). Why would Jesus' death not have covered Judas' sin as well?
 
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sandman

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Judas was / is possessed by Satan (Luke 22:3 / John 13:26–27).
Judas hung himself in that state and went to the abyss (Acts 1:25 / Revelation 20:1–3).
He will then be thrown into the eternal lake of fire (Revelation 20:10) prepared for the devil and his followers (25:41).
I never assume one’s final destination no matter what their actions reflect.

Judas was not born again (it wasn’t available at the time) but he was forgiven of the Lord after He was raised ….so we just don’t know. He was a thief …and the intentions of his actions are unknown, but the fact that he did open himself to get possessed would indicate he was not in control at the time he betrayed Jesus.
 
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JohnD70X7

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I never assume one’s final destination no matter what their actions reflect.

Judas was not born again (it wasn’t available at the time) but he was forgiven of the Lord after He was raised ….so we just don’t know. He was a thief …and the intentions of his actions are unknown, but the fact that he did open himself to get possessed would indicate he was not in control at the time he betrayed Jesus.
But we do know, according to Jesus' own words...

John 17:12 (NASB95)
12 “While I was with them, I was keeping them in Your name which You have given Me; and I guarded them and not one of them perished but the son of perdition, so that the Scripture would be fulfilled.
 
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JohnD70X7

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My guess is that God did forgive and save Judas.

Judas almost immediately repented of what he had done (Matthew 27). We meet other people in the Bible who were possessed or influenced by Satan or demons, and whom Jesus healed. Jesus forgave the other disciples who fled or even denied him that terrible night. And, most importantly, Jesus was, on that very occasion, dying to take away the sins of the world (John 1:29, II Corinthians 5:19). Why would Jesus' death not have covered Judas' sin as well?

So are you saying Satan and the demons must also be included in the wide net you interpret salvation to be? How about those who did not believ e in Jesus before they died? Universal salvation... is that what you are implying?
 
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JohnD70X7

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By the way, Acts 1:25 took place after the apparent remorse of Judas.

Acts 1:24–25 (NASB95)
24 And they prayed and said, “You, Lord, who know the hearts of all men, show which one of these two You have chosen
25 to occupy this ministry and apostleship from which Judas turned aside to go to his own place.”

Gehenna (hell) has three chambers (according to Luke 16:19-31)
  1. the place of rest and comfort (Abraham's bosom)
  2. the place of suffering and torment
  3. the great gulf between the two (the abyss)
"His own place" refers to the abyss (bottomless pit) in Revelation 20:3.

This same son of perdition will return (2 Thessalonians 2:3-4 / Revelation 20:3b) the false messiah / antichrist.

The so-called repentance of Judas was to try to stop the plan of God to save the word by the shed blood of Christ. The devil realized at the last moment that he had played right into God's hand. That God wanted Jesus to go to the cross. And he tried to get the priests to stop it. But he was trapped in the body of Judas... a last resort: possessing a human being to ensure what he thought would be the defeat of the LORD's Messiah. Only to have fallen into the trap himself. His persuasion had no effect on the priests... for he had corrupted them too well to even consider the appeal to retract his testimony against Jesus.

The man Judas filled with the raging fires of a defeated Satan then took his own life (the same way the herd of swine did when the demons were cast into them out of the men near the Gergesenes) Matthew 8:28-32.
 
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ozso

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But we do know, according to Jesus' own words...

John 17:12 (NASB95)
12 “While I was with them, I was keeping them in Your name which You have given Me; and I guarded them and not one of them perished but the son of perdition, so that the Scripture would be fulfilled.
Some say the son of perdition is satan.
 
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Strong in Him

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Judas betrayed Jesus, yes.
But if he hadn't been remorseful he wouldn't have gone to the Pharisees, said that he had betrayed an innocent man, thrown the money back and then taken his own life.

Also, Jesus came to die for our sins. It had been prophesied even in the Garden of Eden, and all through the OT.
The Pharisees didn't actually need Judas' help to arrest Jesus. But if they had done, Judas would have only been facilitating the crucifixion - which was God's plan from the beginning.
 
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Rapture Bound

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Judas was / is possessed by Satan (Luke 22:3 / John 13:26–27).
Judas hung himself in that state and went to the abyss (Acts 1:25 / Revelation 20:1–3).
He will then be thrown into the eternal lake of fire (Revelation 20:10) prepared for the devil and his followers (25:41).

Yes, Judas could have chosen to do otherwise, but God, being omniscient, knew that he wouldn't, and therefore chose him to play the role that he did. God's knowing of a what a person will do [choose] in no way strips that person of their ability to have done otherwise. In other words, God knew that if Judas was placed in the exact circumstances that he was indeed placed in, he would freely choose to betray Jesus. If Judas would have chosen otherwise, God knowing that, would simply have selected a different person [via His "Middle Knowledge" - God's knowledge of counterfactuals - a Molinist perspective on God's omniscience] that would have freely chosen to betray Jesus [so that God's redemptive plan would have been accomplished].

Some argue that it would be impossible, even for God, to know what will happen in an event that never actually takes place. However, that claim is easily disproven by scriptures such as 1 Samuel 23:8-14 :

"And Saul called up all his forces for battle, to go down to Keilah to besiege David and his men.

When David learned that Saul was plotting against him, he said to Abiathar the priest, “Bring the ephod.” David said, “Lord, God of Israel, your servant has heard definitely that Saul plans to come to Keilah and destroy the town on account of me. Will the citizens of Keilah surrender me to him? Will Saul come down, as your servant has heard? Lord, God of Israel, tell your servant.”

And the Lord said, “He will.”

Again David asked, “Will the citizens of Keilah surrender me and my men to Saul?”

And the Lord said, “They will.”

So David and his men, about six hundred in number, left Keilah and kept moving from place to place. When Saul was told that David had escaped from Keilah, he did not go there.

David stayed in the wilderness strongholds and in the hills of the Desert of Ziph. Day after day Saul searched for him, but God did not give David into his hands."

Notice that all of the events that the Lord said could have happened ... never actually did. However, God knew exactly what would have happened if David chose otherwise.

There are many other scriptures showing this reality known as God's counterfactual knowledge or "Middle Knowledge" as well, such as : Ezek. 3:6-7; Jer. 38:17-18; Deut.28:51-57 : Matt.23:27-32; Matt.24:43; Luke 16;30-31; Luke 22:67-68.
Hope this helps my friend!
 
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PloverWing

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So are you saying Satan and the demons must also be included in the wide net you interpret salvation to be? How about those who did not believ e in Jesus before they died? Universal salvation... is that what you are implying?

Satan and demons are a different discussion. You asked about a human being, Judas, who was a disciple of Jesus but committed a terrible sin. The examples of Peter (who denied Jesus) and Paul (who murdered followers of Jesus) give me reason to hope that Judas' sin was forgiven through the work of Christ, much in the way that Peter's and Paul's sins were.
 
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PloverWing

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"His own place" refers to the abyss (bottomless pit) in Revelation 20:3.

The text does not tell us that.

The so-called repentance of Judas was to try to stop the plan of God to save the word by the shed blood of Christ. The devil realized at the last moment that he had played right into God's hand. That God wanted Jesus to go to the cross. And he tried to get the priests to stop it. But he was trapped in the body of Judas... a last resort: possessing a human being to ensure what he thought would be the defeat of the LORD's Messiah. Only to have fallen into the trap himself. His persuasion had no effect on the priests... for he had corrupted them too well to even consider the appeal to retract his testimony against Jesus.

The man Judas filled with the raging fires of a defeated Satan then took his own life (the same way the herd of swine did when the demons were cast into them out of the men near the Gergesenes) Matthew 8:28-32.

Interesting speculation, but once again, this goes way beyond what the text actually tells us.
 
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JohnD70X7

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Satan and demons are a different discussion. You asked about a human being, Judas, who was a disciple of Jesus but committed a terrible sin. The examples of Peter (who denied Jesus) and Paul (who murdered followers of Jesus) give me reason to hope that Judas' sin was forgiven through the work of Christ, much in the way that Peter's and Paul's sins were.
And Judas did not go to Christ for forgiveness but to the very people who condemned the Holy One of Israel.
 
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JohnD70X7

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And again, Jesus said he lost Judas out of all the Father had given him (John 17:12).

You may want to give the devil sympathy, that's your business. But it doesn't add up biblically.

John 6:70 (NASB95)
70 Jesus answered them, “Did I Myself not choose you, the twelve, and yet one of you is a devil?”
 
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Blade

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Judas was / is possessed by Satan (Luke 22:3 / John 13:26–27).
Judas hung himself in that state and went to the abyss (Acts 1:25 / Revelation 20:1–3).
He will then be thrown into the eternal lake of fire (Revelation 20:10) prepared for the devil and his followers (25:41).
Where do you get this "went to the abyss" from? Not how its org written. So a person today gets possessed and some how dies.. lost forever are they? Did Judas ask, invite Satan in or Satan did what Satan wanted? Just asking
 
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Clare73

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My guess is that God did forgive and save Judas.

Judas almost immediately repented of what he had done (Matthew 27). We meet other people in the Bible who were possessed or influenced by Satan or demons, and whom Jesus healed. Jesus forgave the other disciples who fled or even denied him that terrible night. And, most importantly, Jesus was, on that very occasion, dying to take away the sins of the world (John 1:29, II Corinthians 5:19). Why would Jesus' death not have covered Judas' sin as well?
He repented, but he didn't trust God. That's not saving faith.
If he trusted God, he would not have taken his life.
 
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Clare73

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By the way, Acts 1:25 took place after the apparent remorse of Judas.

Acts 1:24–25 (NASB95)
24 And they prayed and said, “You, Lord, who know the hearts of all men, show which one of these two You have chosen
25 to occupy this ministry and apostleship from which Judas turned aside to go to his own place.”
Gehenna (hell) has three chambers (according to Luke 16:19-31)
  1. the place of rest and comfort (Abraham's bosom)
  2. the place of suffering and torment (Hades)
  3. the great gulf between the two (the abyss)
That's not Gehenna, that's Sheol.
Gehenna is the NT word for hell.
"His own place" refers to the abyss (bottomless pit) in Revelation 20:3.

This same son of perdition will return (2 Thessalonians 2:3-4 / Revelation 20:3b) the false messiah / antichrist.

The so-called repentance of Judas was to try to stop the plan of God to save the word by the shed blood of Christ. The devil realized at the last moment that he had played right into God's hand. That God wanted Jesus to go to the cross. And he tried to get the priests to stop it. But he was trapped in the body of Judas... a last resort: possessing a human being to ensure what he thought would be the defeat of the LORD's Messiah. Only to have fallen into the trap himself. His persuasion had no effect on the priests... for he had corrupted them too well to even consider the appeal to retract his testimony against Jesus.

The man Judas filled with the raging fires of a defeated Satan then took his own life (the same way the herd of swine did when the demons were cast into them out of the men near the Gergesenes) Matthew 8:28-32.
 
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sandman

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But we do know, according to Jesus' own words...

John 17:12 (NASB95)
12 “While I was with them, I was keeping them in Your name which You have given Me; and I guarded them and not one of them perished but the son of perdition, so that the Scripture would be fulfilled.
There is only one unforgivable sin and Judas did not commit that.

What he did was truly awful, regardless of his intentions, but not an unredeemable offence. And judging from the scripture he had no idea of what the Chief Priest and Pharisees had in mind.

While it is often stated that Judas hanged himself shortly after returning the 30 pcs of silver that presents a contradiction ….as scripture has Judas alive up until the time Jesus was taken up.

The first thing to remember when it comes too apparent contradictions is that “there are no contradictions in the Bible”. Errors in transmission, deliberate forgeries, mistranslation, or misunderstanding are all causes for what appear as apparent contradictions.

Matthew 27:5 seems to indicate that Judas hanged himself before the crucifixion but I believe 27:5 shows the realization from Judas and the tremendous grief he felt.
And he cast down the pieces of silver in the temple, and departed, and went and hanged himself.



It is because of this one verse in Matthew we have always thought that Judas immediately went out and hanged himself, but the verse in 1Co 15:5-7 and the records (together) in both Luk 24:33-36 and Jhn 20:20-24 show Judas being present after the resurrection, which is a notable or apparent contradiction.


1Co 15:4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: 15:5 And that he was seen of Cephas, “then of the twelve”:

And↓

Luk 24:33-36 – both these accounts Luke & John are linked….to save space.

Jhn 20:20-24 You need to read both to make the connection and see who is missing.



When we run across something that doesn’t fit or appears to contradict itself, we must look in one of the above four categories; in this case it has to be “misunderstanding” of the words “hanged himself” in Mat 27:5


The word translated hanged himself in the King James version is apanchomai from the Greek word apanchô it is used only once in the New Testament.

*In classic literature it means to “strangle” or “to choke” and is used figuratively to mean “to choke with anger” or “grief
(1.) Henry G. Liddell and Robert Scott. A Greek – English Lexicon, rev. by Henry S. Jones {1843; 9th ed., Oxford Press} 1940 p.174

*The Expositor’s Greek Testament makes note of Grotius, who suggests that apanchô points to death by grief… rather than literal choking
(2.) W. Robertson Nicoll, The Expositor’s Greek Testament, 6 vols. {London Hodder and Stoughton, 1897} 1:323.

This is correct only to the extent that Judas did not die immediately in Matthew 27, but he was extremely grieved over the betrayal.

*This figurative usage is also verified in the classical writings Aristophanes
(3.) Aristophanes Vespae 686.


This seems to be what this word “hanged himself” suggest and would fit with the emotional torment and grief that Judas would be going through.
We can, from a human aspect, understand just how one might feel after betraying not just a friend, but also someone who you now realize was the redeemer for Israel. I don’t know about you…. but I have been there with grief so strong it totally incapacities you.

But there is a greater depth to his betrayal culturally that we must understand in order to fully grasps the agonizing grief that was taking hold of Judas; and that is “the covenant of salt.” This is something that we in Western Culture may not totally grasp, but the “the covenant of salt.” Was a practiced commitment that was culturally ingrained into eastern culture.

In short: the salt covenant is an oriental custom still in practice today. It means that when you partook in the covenant, be it from salted food, drink, or exchanged a pinch of salt at the marriage ceremony, your words were your bond, you would never …..even at the cost of death, betray that person you had a covenant with.
There is no reference I could give you, at least in western culture that would equal that of the covenant of salt. It is so honored that you could leave a known thief with all your worldly possessions and money, and not worry about a thing if you had a covenant of salt with that person.
The honorable thing to do if you broke the covenant of salt was to commit suicide, and if you did not, someone else would be obliged to do it for you.
Many references of salted words and salt covenant are found throughout the old and new Testaments; Judas, as did the rest of the Apostles had a salt covenant with Jesus.

------------------------------------------------

I did state that Judas was alive up until the time He was taken up. The following shows us when he committed suicide. You can look check it out on the following post….. but my main point was to show the agonizing grief that Judas went through after the devil spirit had left him.
 
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sandman

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But if Judas is alive after the resurrection ………..when and how did he die? We have already seen in the aforementioned verses (1Co 15:5), (Luk 24:33-36 /Jhn 20:20-24)… that Judas was still alive after the resurrection…..By following the pronouns from in Acts verse 3 through 10 gives us an indication of what took place


Act 1:1- 11

Act 1:1 The former treaties (scrolls of Luke) have I made O Theophilus (beloved of God) of all that Jesus began both to do and teach.

2. Until the day in which He was taken up after that He through the Holy Ghost had given commandments unto
the apostles whom he had chosen: →(Luke 6:13-16)

3. To whom he shewed himself alive after his passion by many infallible proofs, being seen of them (the 12 apostles whom he had chosen) forty days and speaking of the things pertaining to the Kingdom of God.

4. And being assembled together with them commanded them (the 12) that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father which saith he, ye have heard of me.

5. For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.

6. When they (the 12) therefore were come together they (the 12) asked of Him, saying, “Lord, wilt Thou at this time restore again the kingdom if Israel?”

7. And He said unto them, (the 12) it is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in His own power.

8. But ye shall receive power after that the holy ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Judaea, and in Samaria and unto the uttermost parts of the earth.

9. And when He had spoken these things, while they (the 12) beheld, He was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.

10. And while they (the 12) looked steadfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel.

11. Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? This same Jesus, which was taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.


Sometime between verse 10 and verse 11 Judas Iscariot left to commit suicide. We know this by following the pronouns from verse three to verse 10, speaking of “the apostles whom Jesus had chosen” in verse two.

In verse eleven it changes from “them” to “ye men of Galilee,” Judas Iscariot was the only non-Galilean, he was from Kerioth, a town in Judea. We do not know how much time took place between verse 10 and 11, but it was sufficient time for Judas to take a hike, and shortly thereafter…. take his life.

I understand this is contrary to what most of us have been taught about the death of Judas, but God is the author, and clearly the author shows Judas being alive after the resurrection ….

God has a purpose for everything he says, where he say it, why he says it, when he says it, how he says it, and to whom ……….if that is what the Word says, that is what it means ….we just read and believe …………end of story …..well not quite the end…


What happened to Judas is explained in Act 1:18 Now this man purchased a field (chōrion) with the reward of iniquity; and falling headlong, he burst asunder in the midst, and all his bowels gushed out.

Even after seeing Jesus at least three times, and having been forgiven by the Lord, it must have been too much for him to cope with. Through his agonizing grief... he impaled himself on a sharp instrument, possibly sword, or a sharp stake.


Some food for thought …. If Judas did kill himself before the ascension …………wouldn’t Jesus be the likely candidate to select a new apostle?

And if Judas did kill himself immediately after the betrayal ….and Jesus did not find it necessary to replace him …………why would the apostles feel it necessary to do so?

Just questions which are both mute points….. because the Word of God has Judas alive after the resurrection … and the Word of God does not contradict itself.
 
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