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Copts are Orthodox too

ArmyMatt

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Whilst I agree, I think we can offer considerable charity to our Coptic brothers, knowing that our forefathers offered charity (and often did not rebaptise) even to the Arians. Copts are a lot closer than the Arians, I would submit.

My priest and spiritual director is a huge fan of Ethiopian icons. There was is no question that they are not in communion with us. But regardless we can celebrate their "Orthodoxy" in a sense.

I am not saying we should not be charitable or rejoice where we agree. but they are not giving God true glory as long as they reject true councils and have men condemned by name as saints.
 
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dzheremi

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Well this is an interesting thread. Thanks for it, OP. Seeing as this is the regular EO board and not the debate subforum (which I wouldn't go into; not on this topic, anyway), I'm probably severely limited in what I can say and exactly how I can say it, so I'll try to be as gentle as I can to avoid incurring the wrath of the good people here.

I think you make a good point, Commander, regarding O Monogenes, the hymn of HH St. Severus. From what I understand, it is traditional in the Chalcedonian world to attribute the hymn to the emperor himself (rather than just the insertion of it into the EO liturgy, as you've mentioned), though it seems that scholarship in that area is nowadays catching up to the traditional OO view regarding its authorship.

You also make a good point regarding the accusation of 'monoenergism' against us by your fellow EO, as we do indeed embrace instead a kind of 'miaenergism' (if you will) as a consequence of our Miaphysite Christology, which strikes me as basically the same as the EO scheme whereby as a result of believing in dyophysitism, EO also believe in 'dyoenergism' (if I recall correctly, Fr. Andrew S. Damick of the Antiochian Orthodox Church said something in his AFR podcast series "Orthodoxy and Heterodoxy" that was essentially "If He has two natures, He has to have two wills").

What you are hopefully noticing in this thread, OP (and other people), is perhaps a difference in the way that councils are viewed, and as a result what fidelity to them actually looks like in practice. I as an OO person (convert, 5 years -- just in case you want to include me in your straw poll :)) certainly see something a lot closer to my own view, as shaped by the Coptic Orthodox Church itself, in your post #22 than in any other post in this thread, and I wouldn't think that this compromises your commitment to the 7 councils that your brethren who have not been favorable to the OP have been reminding you that the EO faith rests upon.

And yet that is the reality that we are dealing with, of at least equal or perhaps even greater force than the various formal and informal agreements or stances that exist: There is a sizeable portion of your Church which will only see reunion when the OO accept all 7 councils, and not a second before. I can't begrudge them that idea if that's what their Church is telling them must happen, as my own Coptic Orthodox Church is famously strict in many areas that our fellow OO brothers the Syriac Orthodox and the Armenians are less strict about (e.g., regarding the Assyrians, as pointed out by Paul), so I can relate to this sort of situation wherein there is a somewhat uneven sentiment out there regarding churches outside of the communion.

Also, to be fair to the EO, we OO also venerate Mar Isaac of Nineveh. How that's supposed to work is above my pay grade as a simple layperson. He appears to be the chronologically latest saint to be recognized as such by both the Chalcedonians and the Non-Chalcedonians (with the exception of John of Damascus, though I'm not sure he's such a good candidate, as from what I understand he is only venerated by the Ethiopians, no one else, whereas the OO more generally venerate Mar Isaac), unless you want to count Rome's veneration of HH St. Nerses the Gracious, the 12th century Armenian Catholicos, which I'm going to guess you don't. (Though it should be mentioned that HH St. Nerses worked very hard in his time to bring about the union of the OO and the EO, even going so far as to convene a council with emissaries personally selected by the Byzantine emperor for this purpose; alas, much like today, due to a disagreement on the precise terms by which reunion would be established, formal unity was not reestablished at that time.)
 
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jckstraw72

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Fr. Paul Verghese, an Indian Orthodox scholar, explicitly affirms monoenergism, not "miaenergism." He says there is one energy NOT because Christ has one composite nature, but because will belongs to hypostasis rather than nature! Following the logic of this, there are three wills in God ...

To summarize: Acceptance of the Sixth Council is much more difficult for us than the acceptance of Chalcedon. The following are the chief reasons:...

b) We are unable to accept the dithelete formula, attributing will and energy to the natures rather than to the hypostasis. We can only affirm the one united and unconfused divine-human nature, will and energy of Christ the incarnate Lord.
Chalcedonians and Monophysites: Do We Share the Same Beliefs?
 
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ArmyMatt

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I am pretty sure I did not say that modern non-Chalcedonians are all monoenergist, only that is why Severus was condemned and must be from our POV.

and even if Severus did write the hymn (not saying either way because I have heard both and I dunno), it doesn't mean he should get a pass for being a heretic. Tertullian came up with "Trinity" and "Three Persons, One Substance," yet no one makes the case he should be added to the calendar
 
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ArmyMatt

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Fr. Paul Verghese, an Indian Orthodox scholar, explicitly affirms monoenergism, not "miaenergism." He says there is one energy NOT because Christ has one composite nature, but because will belongs to hypostasis rather than nature! Following the logic of this, there are three wills in God ...

Chalcedonians and Monophysites: Do We Share the Same Beliefs?

that is interesting, because when I went to observe a Malankar matins service, in the Creed they altered it to say Christ rose from the dead according to His Will, and not what the original Creed says which is according to the Scriptures.
 
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dzheremi

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He says there is one energy NOT because Christ has one composite nature, but because will belongs to hypostasis rather than nature!

Another way to look at this is that, since we do not say that there are two natures after the incarnation, dyoenergism is at best unnecessary (since there aren't two natures to have each their own will and energy to begin with). Rather, in OO Christology, everything goes back to the person of Jesus Christ, as it is the God-man Jesus Christ who performs all actions and undergoes all experiences pertaining to Him (e.g., this is the understanding behind HH St. Severus' famous rhetorical question of how we are to divide walking upon the water), not this or that nature within Him as an individualized locii of experience. I suspect that this is what father meant when using the word 'hypostasis' (i.e., Christ as the second Person of the Trinity), though I have not read the paper at the link.

Following the logic of this, there are three wills in God ...

That's not following. We are talking about Christ in particular.
 
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dzheremi

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Not if we are using 'hypostasis' here to refer the second person of the Holy Trinity in particular, which -- being an OO Christian myself -- I have reason to believe is what is happening here.

St. Basil of Caesarea disambiguates ousia and hypostasis by pointing out that a hypostases is an individual/particular instance of the thing under consideration, as opposed to the ousia of that thing that is shared by all members of the same class (in the specific example below, a particular man as compared to the animal):

"The distinction between ousia and hypostases is the same as that between the general and the particular; as, for instance, between the animal and the particular man. Wherefore, in the case of the Godhead, we confess one essence or substance so as not to give variant definition of existence, but we confess a particular hypostasis, in order that our conception of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit may be without confusion and clear."

I don't see why this usage (hypostasis = individual) suddenly becomes such a problem when we talk about Christ in particular. And in fact, I suspect that it is not such a problem, as another thing I picked up from listening to the aforementioned lectures on AFR of Fr. Andrew was that in EO theology, whatever can be said about God can either be said about all persons of the Holy Trinity (e.g., God is eternal), or about one in particular (e.g., God is incarnate). So you guys are also able to do this. After all, you don't say that because Christ has two wills and two natures therefore God the Father and the Holy Spirit likewise have two wills and two natures apiece. And it would be way off base for me to claim so based on such a reading of what you guys say about Christ in particular.

Following that, we do not say that there are therefore three wills in the Holy Trinity, but instead that as Christ is one, His will and actions are also one (to paraphrase a section of one of HH Pope Shenouda's books). Again, this all follows from our miaphysitism just as your belief in dyoenergism follows from your dyophysitism.
 
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jckstraw72

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Following that, we do not say that there are therefore three wills in the Holy Trinity, but instead that as Christ is one, His will and actions are also one (to paraphrase a section of one of HH Pope Shenouda's books). Again, this all follows from our miaphysitism just as your belief in dyoenergism follows from your dyophysitism.

but that quite simply is not what Fr. Verghese is saying. he says monoenergism does NOT flow from monophysitism, but rather from attaching will to person. in this conception Christ could have 3, 4, 5, infinite natures, and it wouldn't matter - He would have one will because He's one Person. for Fr. Paul the number of natures and whether or not and how they are unified has nothing to do with the wills. and there are three Persons in the Godhead, so three wills.
 
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Jesus4Madrid

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Sure, we can be glad for all things they have retained, but "Orthodoxy" means retaining everything. Unfortunately, we can't celebrate that in anyone but the Orthodox Church.
Well I guess that depends on what "celebrate" means. We can certainly celebrate what we have in common with other Christians. We can celebrate the witness of Coptic Christians who are martyred for their faith in Jesus Christ. We can even call other Christian churches "churches".

The Church's history with Arianism suggests that what we assume is black and white, what is or is not the Church, is not always easy or clear.
 
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dzheremi

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but that quite simply is not what Fr. Verghese is saying. he says monoenergism does NOT flow from monophysitism, but rather from attaching will to person. in this conception Christ could have 3, 4, 5, infinite natures, and it wouldn't matter - He would have one will because He's one Person. for Fr. Paul the number of natures and whether or not and how they are unified has nothing to do with the wills. and there are three Persons in the Godhead, so three wills.

Well, nothing in Oriental Orthodox Church follows from mono- anything, but okay. I'm not here to argue with anybody, much less on the basis of some paper I have not read and have no interest in reading. I'm just saying that there is nothing wrong with using hypostasis in this manner (following fathers that we both recognize, e.g., St. Basil), so when we understand that we are talking about the person of Jesus Christ (and not this nature or that nature within Him or the attendant wills and energies of them, since of course we do not believe in treating the natures as two after the union anyway), then the insistence on one will is understood as the natural conclusion of miaphysitism. Whether that's how this particular priest is teaching may be another matter. I do not know every priest in the world, and it's entirely possible that father has written something that is confusing or even false relative to our own doctrinal stances (though I of course would like to give everyone, both OO and EO, the benefit of the doubt in matters like this).
 
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jckstraw72

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of course he's using hypostasis to refer to the Second Person of the Trinity. That's not the sticking point.

Look, there's two ways of arriving at the conclusion of one will in Christ:
1. one will because one nature
2. one will because one Person

Now, typically people will try to say that the "mia" conception of one nature is really the same as our "dia" conception, just in other words, and therefore the fact that one will flows from this is also not a problem because it would then obviously also be the same as our two wills.

BUT, Fr. Paul is saying - NO, the one will does NOT flow from the one nature but rather from the one PERSON. We absolutely do not and CANNOT accept this. This is an entirely separate error from mia/monophysitism. The error here is all the more obvious when you consider that there are three Persons in the Godhead, and thus there would be three wills in the Godhead rather than the ONE Divine will. This is Fr. Paul's whole point -- he says Chalcedon is not the problem in our rapprochement, but rather the SIXTH Council, because here we undeniably part ways theologically, whereas people can debate about the Fourth.

God is three Persons, one nature. If you attach will to nature, you get one will in God. If you attach will to Person you get three wills in God.
 
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jckstraw72

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Well I guess that depends on what "celebrate" means. We can certainly celebrate what we have in common with other Christians. We can celebrate the witness of Coptic Christians who are martyred for their faith in Jesus Christ.

Of course. This is what I said.

We can even call other Christian churches "churches".

This is debatable and depends on what you mean by "churches." Of course, Sister Vassa isn't really any kind of authority on the matter. Sure, in everyday talk we talk about other "churches," but when we're getting down to the nitty gritty and speaking dogmatically about how the Church understands itself, obviously we can't make conclusions that deny the One Church that we confess in the Creed.
 
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Jesus4Madrid

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Of course. This is what I said.



This is debatable and depends on what you mean by "churches." Of course, Sister Vassa isn't really any kind of authority on the matter. Sure, in everyday talk we talk about other "churches," but when we're getting down to the nitty gritty and speaking dogmatically about how the Church understands itself, obviously we can't make conclusions that deny the One Church that we confess in the Creed.
I am not denying the One Church. I am saying that it is not a black or white issue of where the Church stops and therefore what we celebrate in other Christian Churches. The Arians, though formally outside of the Church, were in some sense celebrated by the Church since their baptism was accepted. And, again, the Arians are a lot farther away than the Copts.
 
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jckstraw72

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Well, we have to understand that receiving someone by economia is not therefore a recognition of their baptism -- that's why we call it "economia" - it's a loosening of the rule. If, in fact, an Arian baptism, or a Catholic baptism, or a Coptic baptism were actually recognized as true baptisms, it would be IMPOSSIBLE to EVER receive them by baptism, because baptizing someone a second time is a serious sin. To receive by chrismation would in fact be the akrivia, the only acceptable way. But, of course Catholics and Coptics can indeed be received by baptism.
 
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buzuxi02

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I am not denying the One Church. I am saying that it is not a black or white issue of where the Church stops and therefore what we celebrate in other Christian Churches. The Arians, though formally outside of the Church, were in some sense celebrated by the Church since their baptism was accepted. And, again, the Arians are a lot farther away than the Copts.

Since Copts accept the Creed and do not depart from the ritual form both baptism and chrism they can be received by a confession of faith and a renunciation of heresy and straight to communion bypassing baptism and chrismation. Up until recently the Copts (re)baptised all whether Latin or EO and this has never hurt the feelings of the EO. Even though we grant eikonomia it's no pronouncement on efficacy and only claim it becomes a true baptism and true chrismation upon entrance into the Church not a second before.
Now of course there have been heresies whose baptismal form were correct and baptised in each name of the Trinity, yet we still required their (re)baptism such as the Paulanist's and countless other groups much to the chagrin of Pope Stephen who claimed Roman custom was to receive every heretic under the sun by eikonomia which Cyorian and Firmilian had a good laugh.

Sorry Sister Vass . but George Florovsky 1933 article on the limits of the church is inaccurate and most of its content was disavowed by him later in life. Likewise her claim that a heretical body has an ecclesial salvific reality because the Septuagint mentions the church of evil is laughable. For example when I speak to my Hispanic co-workers about a mosque they have no idea what a mosque is. So I have to tell them "moosilimano iglesia". Likewise if I mention to them a Hindu temple, I speak of an Indian church. But in no way should Muslim church mean I'm giving an ecclesial reality to a mosque anymore than Revelation is endorsing the synagogue of satan.
 
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ArmyMatt

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of course he's using hypostasis to refer to the Second Person of the Trinity. That's not the sticking point.

Look, there's two ways of arriving at the conclusion of one will in Christ:
1. one will because one nature
2. one will because one Person

Now, typically people will try to say that the "mia" conception of one nature is really the same as our "dia" conception, just in other words, and therefore the fact that one will flows from this is also not a problem because it would then obviously also be the same as our two wills.

BUT, Fr. Paul is saying - NO, the one will does NOT flow from the one nature but rather from the one PERSON. We absolutely do not and CANNOT accept this. This is an entirely separate error from mia/monophysitism. The error here is all the more obvious when you consider that there are three Persons in the Godhead, and thus there would be three wills in the Godhead rather than the ONE Divine will. This is Fr. Paul's whole point -- he says Chalcedon is not the problem in our rapprochement, but rather the SIXTH Council, because here we undeniably part ways theologically, whereas people can debate about the Fourth.

God is three Persons, one nature. If you attach will to nature, you get one will in God. If you attach will to Person you get three wills in God.

this was one of the things we learned in comparative theology. the non-Chalcedonians were willing to accept Chalcedon after Constantinople 2, if we agreed on the one will or energy in Christ. but since Constantinople 3 flat out says there are two Wills and two Energies because of two Natures, they rejected it.
 
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ArmyMatt

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one will because one Person

taking this as well, if you say the will is "mia" (as in, one as Divine and human) and is rooted in the Person, the Person would then be "mia" (one as Divine and human) as well, which is Nestorian.
 
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Gxg (G²)

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In another thread which is locked right now, someone wrote about the Coptic Pope

"he is Coptic, so not Orthodox. you meant Theodoros"

At a minimum, ecumenical courtesy compels us to refer to the Copts as Oriental Orthodox, for the same reason we call Roman Catholics Roman Catholics despite the fact that our church is more authentically Roman and more authentically Catholic.

But, this is inadequete, for even that concession to civility fails to capture the current very warm state of ecumenical relations between the Greek and Coptic Orthodox Patriarchates of Alexandria.

His Beatitude the Greek Orthodox Pope and Patriarch of Alexandria All Africa and His Holiness the Coptic Orthodox Pope of Alexandria have a very close ecumenical relationship established by their predeccessprs in the 1990s (Pope Shenouda died in 2012, and Pope Petros VI was tragically killed in a helicopter crash in 2004).

Interestinfly, Pope Theodoros II and Pope Tawadros II have the same name, Tawadros being Coptic for Theodore. I believe this is providential coincidence, and I pray that these two Popes will be the last separated popes of the Church of Alexandria, and there is good reason to believe this is the case.

Since the 1990s, Coptic and Alexandrian Orthodox have been permitted to marry. The churches had previously stopped anathematizing each other in the 1960s. If a Copt marries an Alexandrian, they can both receive communion in whichever parish is convenient for them.

This is really beneficial, because in Egypt, there are many Coptic parishes but few Alexandrian parishes. Elsewhere in Africa, there are many Alexandrian and Coptic parishes due to missionary work, and there is probably a preponderance of Alexandrian parishes in South Africa due to the Greek emigre community.

Also, as a rule, in Egypt, most Coptic priests will communicate Alexandrians and vice versa. i have also heard reliable reports of Coptic pilgrims to the Monastery of St. Catharine of Sinai, which is under the omophorion of the Archbishophric of Sinai, the smallest autonomous* church in the Eastern Orthodox Communion, in turn subordinate to the Greek Orthodox Patriarchate of Jerusalem, receiving the Eucharist.

To my knowledge, the level of intercommunion is not as formal or solidified as that between the Antiochian and Syriac Orthodox, who in the Middle East can communicate at each others churches (unfortunately not in the US, but remember, the AOCNA is both autonomous, and also largely comprised of converts, who tend to be much more hostile to the Oriental Orthodox than most cradle Orthodox, due an admirable zeal for the Seven Councils which is, I think, misplaced (since the idea that the Seven Councils are in absolutely and in every respect infallible is really a 20th century innovation; the historical view is that they are dogmatically definitive, but not absolutely infallible, which is why we ignore Canon XX of Nicea on Pentecost (some people claim the kneeling service is a vespers, but technically, its not). If you perform a Metania on a Sunday or Feast Day, you have violated the canons of Nicea.

However, there is no doubt that the councils are dogmatically definitive, and the restoration of communion with the Oriental Orthodox is happening because of a realization that their miaphysite Christology is simpy that of St. Cyril as expressed at Ephesus. It need not be read in opposition to the Tome of Leo. Indeed, Orthodoxy and Heterodoxy ran a somewhat anti-OO post by Nicholas Marinides claimimg Chalcedon was a victory for St. Cyril, not Pope Leo. Well, if that is true, it simply further proves the essential unity that exists between Easterns and Orientals, because the Oriental Orthodox are committed to the Christology of St. Leo, and as most of our bishops and I think most of the cradle Orthodox who have an interest are now aware, Chalcedon is a viable way of expressing the Miaphysite Christology of St. Cyril, and vice versa.

The real test of Christological Orthodoxy is the hymn "Ho Monoges", inserted into the Eastern Orthodox liturgy by St. Justinian. This hymn features in the Paschal liturgy of the Coptic Church, and in the Syriac Orthodox Church, is the very first hymn sung during the Divine Liturgy (which I very much like; I think one of the few reforms of our Byzantine Rite liturgy that I could support would be separating Ho Monoges from the Second Antiphon, placing it in between the Great Ektenia and the First Antiphon).

Now, the interesting thing about Ho Monoges is that it was in fact written by Severus, the Patriarch of Antioch. Severus also wrote the first Presanctified Liturgy, which fell out of use in the Syriac Orthodox Church, but which has been revived recently, and which is clearly the prototype for the later Chalcedonian Presanctified Liturgy of St. James (served recently for the first time in probably centuries at Holy Trinity Seminary in Jordanville, which does brilliant liturgics), and which is in turn the clear template for the Presanctified Liturgy of Pope St. Gregory Diologos. Tragically, Pope Pius XII severely modified the Good Friday presanctified mass in 1955; before that time, however, the Roman Catholic Good Friday mass and our Presanctified Liturgy looked, as one might expect, very similiar (I think if we restore communion with Rome we should mandate a restoration of the Good Friday Mass of the Presanctified to its ancient, pre-1950s form, and by the way, we aren't talking Novus Ordo here, but rather, the sweeping changes to the Paschal Triduum made by Pius XII in the 1950s which made the Roman Catholic services on Holy Saturday look, for the first time in recorded history, nothing like their Orthodox equivalent, and which really set the stage for the later degeneration of that church).

But I digress. It was Severus who developed the Presanctified Mass, and it was Severus who penned the definitive statement of Christological Orthodoxy, the Ho Monoges.

St. Justinian made a huge contribution to Eastern Orthodoxy by insisting on Theopaschitism as expressed in the Ho Monoges, and inserting this into the EO liturgy. He and his OO wife, St. Theodora, tried very hard to bring about reunion, but there was another problem, an error in St. Justinian's own theology: apthartodocetism. This error was condemned by Severus, and I believe it was the forerrunner to Monothelitism, just as Origen's views on Christology may have inadvertantly inspired Arius. Not a major heresy, not worth anathematizing anyone over, but, heresiogenic (of course Origen was anathematized, but the real issue there was his reincarnation belief and other very strange doctrines; Theodore of Mopsuestia had some weird ideas also, although I wish St. Justinian had anathematized their errors rather than their persons, since both died in the peace of the Church, and the anathema of Theodore caused a nasty schism in the West, the Three Chapters Controversy, which I think led to a breakdown in civil society which facilitated the later Islamic conquest of North Africa and Spain, and the ethnic cleansing of the North African Christians).

So, by introducing a hymn written by an Oriental Orthodox Patriarch, St. Justinian saved Eastern Orthodoxy from the pernicious infouence of crypto-Nestorians like Theodoret. And in turn, the Eastern Orthodox Church, when it came to the one major error made by St. Justinian, sided with Severus and rejected apthartodocetism using arguments identical to those used by the Antiochene Patriarch.

So where does this leave us? One of the most important contributors to Eastern Orthodox theology, more important than Origen, not recognized as a saint, whereas meanwhile, we managed to glorify St. Isaac the Syrian, who is a beautiful poet, but who happened to be both a universalist and a Nestorian (the attempts by John Sandipolous and others to challenge the scholarship of Sebastian Brock are not credible).

Nor have EO-OO relations always been fraught. there were many periods in the first millenia where the two churches drifted in and out of communion on a local level. In the 19th century, the Coptic and Greek Popes of Alexandria attempted to unite into a single Egyptian Orthodox Church, but were overruled by the Albanian Muslim Khedive, who feared the political power of a united Christian church.

There were actual monophysites, followers of Eutyches, and Dioscorus did err by defending him (the Oriental Orthodox later anathematized him). The worst of these were the Tritheists and the Acephali, described by St. John of Damascus. St. John was unaware that John Philoponus was, and is, regarded as a heretic by the Coptic Church.

The Oriental Orthodox have one other glorious crown: unlike us, on no occasion did an OO autocephalous church ever embrace iconoclasm. The Oriental Orthodox are the most faithful defenders of the Holy Icons, historically speaking (since we for a time did fail, in Constantinople, until the glorious Triumph of Orthodoxy in 843 enforced the decrees of the Seventh Ecumenical Council).

The Orientals were severel persecuted, and much of their spiritual writing is obscure and poorly known even among their faithful. There is great treasure. They never had to deal with a Barlaam, and as a result never were forced into dogmatically defining the Essence/Energies distimction, although OO theologians I know have been thrilled to receice the works of St. Gregory Palamas and have recovered an exciting Patristic corroboration of Palamas, in the form of is/partake. So this new school of Coptic Palamists views the Divine Energies as that which we partake of, and the Divine Essence as that which God is. This directly proves the Roman Catholic and Protestant accusation that Palamas was an innovator false, by clearly showing an ancient Patristic basis for it. This I believe will be the first of many exciting fruits of theological research to grow from the impending reunion of Eastern and Oriental Orthodoxy.

There is one last question which might trouble some. During all these years of schism, which one was the Church? We don't need to resort to invisible church or branch ecclesiology; we can say both, there merely having been an internal political rupture.

Let's think about this for a moment: throughout the history of the Orthodox Church there have been vast numbers of schisms, most of them healed. Most recently, the restoration of communion between ROCOR, which was completely isolated canonically from the rest of Orthodoxy, and the Moscow Patriarchate. During that long schism, which one was the Church? Was it ROCOR and the handful of Old Calendarists they were in communion with? Or was it the MP, the EP and all the churches in communion with Moscow? To me, the answer is obvious: both were the Church; there was simply a political rift between bishops.

It is only when a schism does not heal, or becomes beyond healing, that the separated portion of the church ceases to be the Church. I believe that this is primarily eschatological, although cases have also happened where heterodox have become Orthodox and ended schisms that way. The high church Anglicans who became the Antiochian Western Rite Vicarate probably were not part of the Church before their reception. The Holy Order of Mans...certainly not.

So, let's conclude with this. Right now, Antiochian, Armenian, Syriac, Alexandrian, Jerusalemite, Sinaian, and Coptic Orthodox Christians are dying together in the Middle East, the victims of a horrible genocide waged not just by ISIL, but by evil regimes like Saudi Arabia, Qatar, and others, who have been financing this murder of Christians.

In the Soviet Union, Armenians and Russian and Georgian Orthodox were persecuted together. And in the Turkish Genocide, Armenians, Pontic Greeks, Syriac Orthodox and other Christians all died together.

Our schism with the Roman Catholic church is complicated by increasingly liberal bishops, liturgical chaos, and doctrinal difficulties. Reconciliation with the Church of the East is tricky due to their refusal to call our most holy, glorious and radiant Virgin Mother the Theotokos, and their veneration of Nestorius (although strictly speaking, their Christology as outlined by Mar Babai is not really incompatible with Chalcedon).

However, in the case of the Oriental Orthodox, their leading theologian, Severus of Antioch, wrote our most important Christological hymn, developed the concept of the Presanctified Liturgy,mlaid the groundwork for the Byzantine acceptance of Theopaschitism under St. Justinian, and at the same time, where St. Justinian made a minor theological error, provided the theological arguments we wound up using.

The Oriental Orthodox never gave into iconoclasm. An attempt in the 8th century to introduce it in Eastern Armenia was crushed by the bishops of that church.

The Oriental Orthodox have helped us prove the apostolic authenticity of Palamism, which will be vital in converting the Western Christians to Orthodoxy.

On several occasions, communion has been intermittently restored. The only reason there are two Popes of Alexandria and not one is due to an evil Islamic dictator playing divide and conquer in the mid 19th century.

As of today, in Syria and the Middle East, Syriac and Antiochian Orthodox can receive the Eucharist in each other's churches, officially. Unofficially, Copts, Alexandrians and the Church of Sinai appear to grant the same privileges. And Alexandrians and Copts can get married and receive the Eucharist in whichever church is convenient.

So let's go all the way and end this schism. Let there be one reunited Eastern and Oriental Orthodox Church, with full intercommunion, united in the Christology of St. Cyril. Let's glorify Severus. Let's do what Sts. Justinian and Theodora tried to do, what the Coptic and Greek popes tried to do, and whar most of our faithful in the Middle East want to do, and end this pointless, destructive schism.


*An autonomous church is one that is self-governing but not autocephalous. The primate of an autonomous church is elected by the Holy Synod of the parent autocephalous church. Examples of autonomous churches include ROCOR, and the churches of Finland, Sinai, Japan, Estonia, the Ukraine (MP), Moldova, Latvia (MP) and others.

Saw that mentioned in the other thread locked and appreciate you seeking to address the issue here.

On what you're saying, As said before, There was actually a conference which happened recently that others may be blessed by (seeing what has been brought up over the years with connections throughout the Body of Christ - although some of the older members are not as active anymore here). It has been going on for some time and very wonderful, if keeping up with what others have been doing with St. Vladimir's Orthodox Theological Seminary

Fr. John Behr and Fr. Kallistos Ware have been present as have others. It's Awesome work that they've been doing for sometime :) I'm Glad for their heart in Orthodoxy and truly taking seriously what Christ noted in John 17. As an example of some of the people who've spoken there at the conference, I am reminded of "Mama Maggie" Gobran, a Coptic Christian who has been called the “Mother Teresa of Cairo" - she also spoke at St. Vladimir's Orthodox Theological Seminary on October 21, 2016.


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Also, As said before, I am reminded of Fr. Antony Bahou the priest at St. George Antiochian Orthodox Church (EO) here in San Diego for priest Fr. Pimen Shenoda from Holy Cross Coptic Orthodox Church, as others have attended and supported the Pan Orthodox Vesper services through lent here in San Diego County. With unification, we remember that any action could take some time (and as one of my friends in the GOC noted, losing Fr. Romanides made an impact and it could be that we will have to wait for another like fr. Romanides to be revealed to continue full force). What matters is that we mind ourselves spiritually, and continue to work across 'lines' on the ground. The issues are complex (and forget that in the EO, Chalcedon must be interpreted in light of the next council as well - meaning we MUST take seriously the numerous Agreed Statements which the Patriarchs have signed/referenced for decades when stating where unity has occurred for all intents/purposes).

Others in the EO world have long dealt with this simple reality, including the issue of Severus and how to reconcile him fully:

And on the work done on the ground, some of this I have shared on more in-depth elsewhere, as referenced here:


As said best in An Explanatory Letter from the Greek Orthodox Patriarchate of Alexandria, "The Coptic Orthodox Church believe that Jesus Christ is fully Divine and fully Human in His nature and that in the union of His Divinity and Humanity, the two natures continue to exist in the union without confusion, without change, without division and without separation."






Obviously, because ambiguous language by Nestorious was easily misunderstood among the many heresies swirling about (e.g. adoptionism, docetism, Apollonarianism, etc.), The West resolved the debate of the two-natures at the Council of Chalcedon (451 AD) - and although it should be acknowledged that Chalcedon did not entirely remove the mystery of the paradox that exists in the person of Christ. For at best, the Chalcedonian Creed states what the two natures in one person does not mean - and as non-Chalcedonians have repeatedly noted this issue and other Chalcedonians have acknowledged it, it's not new news to note that non-Chaledonians overall don't have issue with the idea of Two Natures when clarified.

Of course, among converts in EO, there's often a lot of assumptions. Growing up on both sides and seeing it in person, it really wouldn't be accurate claiming otherwise. When anyone (including EO who've done so) say that Christ with Two Natures needs to always be clarified as not being Two persons so others don't push that, that's no an issue. It has happened with several here - and I myself do that and have done that with others on my forum page here ( Whenever an EO says something to others that isn't accurate, of course folks will address it.

 
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All manuscript evidence suggests otherwise.

It also doesn't help that the Nestorians have always venerated him as a saint, and have published their own manuscript editions of his works.

Sebastian Brock is a serious scholar, not a hack.
I remember this coming up before and I am very glad Dr. Sebastian Brock has done the research he has done as the foremost scholar in the world for Syriac Orthodoxy and St. Issac. I've shared before on how My own background involves both the Syriac Tradition as well as the Antiochian tradition - and I already have friends/family in the Coptic tradition (which I already shared when speaking about being invited to visit His Holiness when he was in town, others knowing where I stand as I've shared before in Prayers, as I'm looking Forward to Meeting the Coptic Pope Tomorrow and Pesach...something to think about).

That said, As said before elsewhere when a similar subject came up as was noted in your OP, St. Isaac of Syria is regarded as a Saint and venerated within Holy Orthodoxy, even though he is a "post-schism" saint, being from the Assyrian Church of the East (Nestorian) - and even St. Isaac of Nineveh had views reminiscent of Nestorius - more in The images of 'heart' and Isaac the Syrian | Hyung Guen Choi - Academia.edu. Other good reads on his world can be found in The Spiritual World of Isaac the Syrian (more here ). As much as many in the EO world try to claim St. Isaac is Orthodox, we can't dishonor the fact that there's no evidence. As Dr. David Hart said best:

The attempt to co-opt St. Isaac as “Orthodox,” i.e., a part of the organizational Chalcedonian Church, is without merit. Analysis of the Syriac text of the Ascetical Homilies of St. Isaac by the celebrated Syriac scholar Sebastian Brock reveals an author thoroughly at home within an East Syriac context familiar with Eastern and Western Syriac works and East Syriac phraseology. However, even if we acknowledge, as scholars unanimously do, that St. Isaac was the Eastern bishop of Nineveh, this does not necessitate that he had a thoroughly Nestorian Christology. Some scholars, such as A. Sidorov, have even argued that there was a pro-Chalcedonian movement within the Church of the East, and St. Isaac could very well have been a proponent of a more Chalcedonian Christology than the label “Nestorian” may allow while being a bishop of the Church of the East.


Now the main response that seems to come up in the last century is that St. Paisios's vision of St.Isaac not being Nestorian settles the matter (as others have sought to note here in St. Paisios' Love and Defense of St. Isaac the Syrian )- but that is not what the Early Church said on the issue nor consensus, so it would not really matter if trying to say St. Paisios was an authority. As others wisely pointed out, "St. Isaac had His theology and faith fully Orthodox, but he was not in communion with the Orthodox. He was in communion with the Assyrian Church of the East, which was not in communion with the Orthodox. All this vision of St. Paisios proves is there are Orthodox Christians outside of the visible boundaries of the Orthodox Church, which would seem to undermine the point of assuring us St. Isaac was Orthodox."


One can also find out more on the man from the Introduction to the SVS Press (St. Vladimir's Seminary Press ) publication of St. Isaac, entitled "On Ascetical Life"

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In the intro of the book, what we are told is that we little is known of Isaac's life and that what we do know is derived entirely from two brief references: 'The Book of Chastity', by Isho'dnah of the early 9th century, and a 15th century manuscript in Mardin, and published in the 'Studia Syriaca' ( Lebanon: Charfet Seminary, 1904, p. 33 ) of Rahmani. It is a fact that he was elevated to the Episcopate by the Nestorian Patriarch George, and ruled for 5 months as a "Nestorian" bishop, before withdrawing from public life in order to return to his former monastic habit. We can see that it's implied that it was Isaac's "higher education", displayed in his post as a teacher, that captured the eye of the Patriarch, and won him the Episcopal Throne - making it a logical conclusion for one to say Isaac was, at the very least, a "formal" Nestorian since it seems doubtful that the Nestorian Patriarch would've elevated him had he suspected him to be either a "Chalcedonian" or a "Monophysite".

It was noted in the SVS Press Intro that the Syrian Church in Isaac's day was divided into three opposing communions: Chalcedonians, West-Syrain Monophysites, and East-Syrian Nestorians. We already know St. Isaac was completely loyal to the Nestorian communion - and if his Christology was Orthodox in the Chalcedonian sense, as many Orthodox believers insist, then why didn't he renounce the East-Syrian sect, and join the Syrian Chalcedonian Church? Why would he accept elevation to the Nestorian episcopacy? It is noted in this Intro that "the Christology of Nestorius is really not an issue in East Syrian theology, at least in its ascetical writers such as Isaac." And that "not even the Christology of Nestorius as refracted in Theodore of Mopsuestia is 'central or essential' to the theological synthesis of East Syrians, even though 'officially adopted by the Church of Persia'." According to this, then, Isaac was "officially" Nestorian, though his ascetical writings were not harmed by this fact, since Christology is not "central or essential" to his experience and mystical theology.

The SVS Press Introduction notes the theologians who had a formative influence on St. Isaac's theology, like St.Athanasius and St.Basil, and Dionysius - but all of those are pre-Chalcedonian. In fact, one of the reads I've gone through on the issue went into exceptional depth covering non-Chalcedonian figures such as as Theodore of Mopsuestia.

Years ago, in preparation for Lent and study on what the Saints did, one book I checked out was Introduction to Eastern Christian Spirituality: The Syriac Tradition.

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After being blessed by some of the lecture series I had been going through by Dr. Sebastian Brock on the Syrian tradition , my priest allowed me to borrow his copy/go through it. Really enjoyable read - even if it's a bit short (124 pages) - as I came across it recently and it was refreshing to see some of the ways it helped re-familarize me with some of the figures I was previously aware of in the Syriac Orthodox Church . The book basically introduces some of the major writers and ascetics of the Syriac world/region of the Middle East that was the home of the Syriac language and culture. It was amazing seeing that although it is an area rich in thought and tradition, the Syriac world has not been studied extensively in English and is little known by the general public....and although the work is a modest introduction to a very abundant /complex heritage, it does the job of really inspiring you on what it means to live as a Saint.

The Syriac Fathers on Prayer and the Spiritual Life a really helped me a lot in understanding the concept of simplicity - in addition to another read I got a hold of entitled The Spiritual World of Isaac the Syrian (more here and here/here)

But In "The Syriac Fathers on Prayer and the Spiritual Life", a work translated and introduced by Dr. Sebastian Brock, Brock makes the following remark(s) on the Canon of St. Isaac's writings:

"Isaac's extensive writings all seem to be the product of his old age; they thus date approximately to the last decade or so of the seventh century. One biographical account states that he wrote 'five volumes of instruction for monks'; if this is correct, then much will have been lost, for the works which have come down to us and which are definitely genuine are divided into two parts. These two parts were clearly put together after Isaac's death." ( p. 243 )

"Isaac is not a systematic writer and his spirituality draws on many different sources, notably Evagrius, John of Apamea ( whose threefold pattern of the spiritual life he sometimes employs ), the Macarian Homilies, the Apophthegmata and related literature of the Egyptian Fathers ( this had been made readily accessible by Ananisho in the mid-seventh century to monks of the Church of the East in a massive compilation known as the 'Paradise of the Fathers' ), Theodore of Mopsuestia ( to whom Isaac normally refers as 'the Exegete', par excellence ), Abba Isaiah, and Mark the Hermit." ( p. 244-245 )


We can also see that in the Second Part of Isaac's Canon, ( which the translator of the English edition of the 'Ascetical Homilies', published by HTM, also assures us is "definitely genuine" - should one choose to see the Intro, p. Ixxxi ), Isaac repeatedly refers to Theodore of Mopsuestia as "the Blessed Theodore" - and even says the following:
The Spiritual World of St. Isaac notes the same things - and it is not a small matter seeing his HIGH reverence for Theodore of Mopseustia (who was truly brilliant on several issues, some of which have been shared before elsewhere as seen in EO & evolution and Consequence of Sin as well as elsewhere when seeing how Theodore's thought process occurred). There is a reason that Persian Christianity accepted the theology of Theodore as its official expression. ..even though there were later camp battles - more shared here:

In the 5th century, the Church of the East gravitated towards the radical Antiochene form of Christology that had been articulated by Theodore of Mopsuestia, who was much, much more adept than Nestorius (who tended to over-react to things) and who is the best known representative of the middle School of Antioch of hermeneutics(more shared in his Commentary on the Nicene Creed). There are excellent books on the issue that really bring the issue home - as seen in the book entitled Christianity in Iraq: Its Origins and Development to the Present Day by Suha Rassam...a well known scholar in the Orthodox world (as well as Catholic).

The politics behind the reject of Theodore of Mopsuestia were particularly bad. Recent discussions with the Oriental Orthodox reflect a better attitude.

In regards to Theodore and Dicourus, of course, incidently, they are rejected by the Eastern Orthodox - their writings are condemned by the 5th ecumenical council, even though others have noted how interesting it was that Theodore of Mopsuestia was condemned posthumously to appease the Cyrillians, a highly controversial act. Other EO have gone back in dialogues and brought to light the fact that both of those individuals were saints in their era and that is not a small issue - and when it comes to linkage, it is highly odd whenever others try to reference Saints such as St.Isaac of Nineveh and yet ignore both Issac and Isaac's Church's devotion to Theodore of Mopsuestia (more here).

But if following Theodore of Mopsuestia you end up theologically agreeing with Nestorius (even while not being as outlandish as Nestorius) - as Nestorius largely repeats Theodore's theology with regards to the Incarnation.
And as an aside, it's interesting that no Persian delegates were present at the first four ecumenical councils - more shared in ORIGIN OF THE MAPHRIANATE OF TAGRIT.
And as another said best on the situation with Persia:


. One thing to keep in mind when trying to understand this whole situation is that the Persian church was very isolated from the rest of the Church. This was due to geography and the fact that it was under the political control of Persia which swung in between benign tolerance & outright persecution. The Persians also had their own pious and theological culture which grew out of their unique Syriac & Mesopotamian world. Influences on them were Judaism (notice all the names of Old Testament figures among their church- Isaac, Abraham, etc). A very strong influence on them was the Antiochene theological tradition, especially Scriptural exegesis, as represented by Theodore of Mopsuestia. Later influences were Evagrius, Dionysisos the Areopagite, St Macarios' homilies (and Egyptian skete life in general) along with the Cappadocian Frs. Over time this gave the Persian church its own very unique culture and way of thinking ....For a long time the Persians had much more of a concentration on a spirituality based on asceticism and exegesis than a systematic theology. In fact it can be said the Persians never had a systematically worked out theology in the way we are used to this. Instead they had a basically Antiochene theology or Christology which gradually went through changes which brought it closer to changes in Byzantine theology.

A strong element in what formed them was the arrival of large numbers of monophysites who had fled or been deported from Byzantine areas. The conflict between the Persians & monophysites saw the first great conflicts on the Persian church scene as monophysites began proselytizing & attracting some of the Persian faithful. The main influence on the Persians from this was to accentuate at times the Antiochene element in reaction. But this 'conservatizing' trend itself was resisted by many Persians who favoured some of theological changes in a Byzantine direction (eg more emphasis on the one Person of Christ while still remaining adamantly faithful to the older Antiochene vision of the two natures). In any case by the 7th c this led to the situation where in Persia there was a theological spectrum of Antiochene conservatives, moderates, and some who wanted to push in a more Byzantine direction. All of this meant that as time went by the Persians were more inclined towards the Byzantine church but due to other factors the two were never particularly close. The Persians had not been canonically reliant on any other church for many centuries, nor for that matter were they spiritually reliant. This is probably why even though the Ecumenical Councils were periodically of theological interest to them in terms of having some sort of universally acceptable & proper Faith, they really did regard these Councils as not applying to them in any juridical sense. Thus their theology and faith was one that resulted from local choices in a way difficult for us to understand.

In any case resulting from this whole situation we find a church which is generally speaking Antiochene in one way, Alexandrian in another. Some have used the word 'hesychast' to best describe their monasticism. Whatever it was it was unique, and a strong argument can be made that it was not Nestorian, even though the situation was far from simple on this score. What is important to recognize is that the relative theological variety found in Persia was quite unique.

With Theodore so highly revered by St. Isaac, we see the fact that one of the great Saints saw the necessity to ensure that no one was left behind as it concerns contributing to the Faith. So in the end, it doesn't really matter what is said of St. Isaac if we do not honor or see his own words on the issue - we cannot take him from his context and the bottom line reality is that he was not someone who either rejected all things in the world of Assyrian Christianity like many in the EO world - nor was he someone who was solely for all things Assyrian. He was a very complicated man....
 
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