Conservatives in the Episcopal Church?

[jinc1019]

Hi Everyone,

So I have been looking at the various denominations for the better part of four years now, and I am convinced that, whether I like it or not, I'm an orthodox Anglican.

My wife and I are going to be moving from Chicago to one of a few different locations, and it's certain we'll end up somewhere with an Anglican church, but it may not be the Anglican Church in North America or another continuing Anglican church. It's very likely the Episcopal Church will be my only Anglican option.

So...for those of you who are on the more conservative end of the Anglican spectrum, how do you feel about being in the Episcopal Church?

For those of you on the more "liberal," for the lack of a better word, end of the spectrum, do you get along with the more conservative members of your parish?

Also, why do those of you who tend to be more orthodox/conservative stay in the TEC? Do you think the Anglican Communion matters anymore? I'd be curious to hear your thoughts on all of these issues as I consider making this decision to join.

By the way...I am by no means a "fundamentalist," but I do, generally speaking, fall on the more orthodox, traditional end of the spectrum. Thanks for your time and effort as always!

-Justin

 

[everbecoming2007]

I find it difficult to classify myself as conservative or liberal, but I tend to be more comfortable in a parish that is moderately conservative in theology with conservative liturgy for whatever reason.

My own parish is predominantly conservative and has a modified 1928 liturgy and would be more liturgically conservative I think, but some of that has changed with the new priest. Being in the Bible belt, however, some members have some fundamentalist evangelical beliefs in some respects, making them different from truly traditional Anglicans. Nonetheless, there are still conservatives in TEC.

I get along with both conservatives and liberals in my parish, most of my friends are liberal, but have to admit some of the discussions I've been to with the liberal members of the parish were pretty painful to sit through -- lots of talk about Jung and New Agey stuff with bits of scripture mixed in and seemed really superficial and stupid. I avoid those kinds of groups now.

I tend to think conservative members of TEC have found a parish where they fit in and may not feel comfortable abandoning their Anglican heritage for something else. They are Anglicans. Some may be able to find a Continuing Anglican parish or wait for their own parish to schism off, but many of us do not have that option. I don't want to be anything other than Anglican. People also often don't jump ship until the effects of what is going on at the national level trickle down to home and begin to affect their own parish. Out of sight, out of mind.

As for the Anglican Communion, I don't know. I will wait and see.

 

[jinc1019]

I find it difficult to classify myself as conservative or liberal, but I tend to be more comfortable in a parish that is moderately conservative in theology with conservative liturgy for whatever reason.

My own parish is predominantly conservative and has a modified 1928 liturgy and would be more liturgically conservative I think, but some of that has changed with the new priest. Being in the Bible belt, however, some members have some fundamentalist evangelical beliefs in some respects, making them different from truly traditional Anglicans. Nonetheless, there are still conservatives in TEC.

I get along with both conservatives and liberals in my parish, most of my friends are liberal, but have to admit some of the discussions I've been to with the liberal members of the parish were pretty painful to sit through -- lots of talk about Jung and New Agey stuff with bits of scripture mixed in and seemed really superficial and stupid. I avoid those kinds of groups now.

I tend to think conservative members of TEC have found a parish where they fit in and may not feel comfortable abandoning their Anglican heritage for something else. They are Anglicans. Some may be able to find a Continuing Anglican parish or wait for their own parish to schism off, but many of us do not have that option. I don't want to be anything other than Anglican. People also often don't jump ship until the effects of what is going on at the national level trickle down to home and begin to affect their own parish. Out of sight, out of mind.

As for the Anglican Communion, I don't know. I will wait and see.

Thank you for providing your insights; I really appreciate it. My experiences in the TEC have not been anything like yours, but I realize that the TEC is very different depending upon the region. I am definitely NOT a fundamentalist, and we sound a lot alike theologically. My biggest concern, of course, is belonging to a church that nationally has made some very questionable decisions as of late.

Just curious...If you found yourself in a more liberal-to-moderate parish, would you still stay? What if the parish was quite liberal? If you would stay, why would you? Just trying to get as many perspectives as possible.

 

[Albion]

Hi Everyone....By the way...I am by no means a "fundamentalist," but I do, generally speaking, fall on the more orthodox, traditional end of the spectrum. Thanks for your time and effort as always!

-Justin

Me, too.

I hope that there's a Continuing Anglican parish where you alight. Write back if that's the case and you want to discuss options.

Thanks for asking, Justin.

 

[GenetoJean]

I am on the more Liberal side of social issues and too new to the Episcopal church to know anything about traditional/conservative liturgy but my experience in the Episcopal church is that the main disagreements I see are people disagreeing on how the services should be conducted and not the content of sermons. I may be too new to even know what I am talking about but I thought I would share my experiences.

 

[everbecoming2007]

Thank you for providing your insights; I really appreciate it. My experiences in the TEC have not been anything like yours, but I realize that the TEC is very different depending upon the region. I am definitely NOT a fundamentalist, and we sound a lot alike theologically. My biggest concern, of course, is belonging to a church that nationally has made some very questionable decisions as of late.

Just curious...If you found yourself in a more liberal-to-moderate parish, would you still stay? What if the parish was quite liberal? If you would stay, why would you? Just trying to get as many perspectives as possible.

In a moderate to liberal parish, I don't know. I suppose it would depend on what it looked like. I am not in all respects conservative. Some of the stuff I've heard in my parish from the conservative majority wasn't much better than what I've heard from the liberal folks and hardly more Anglican. So my parish is a little different all around, yet I've managed to make it my home, and it is a very reverent place to worship.

I think I could adapt to a moderate parish, but if I found myself stuck with a really wacky liturgy and awful preaching, I'm not really sure what I would do. I've been to train wreck truly weird liturgies in other churches, even one in particular that deviated so far from the norm I'm sure we were not celebrating a true Eucharist as the consecration had been so radically altered and re-interpreted -- not Episcopal services fortunately -- and those kinds of liturgies make me miserable and distracted. If I was stuck with a parish like that, I guess I'd have to look elsewhere, but I'm not sure where. Continuing Anglicans can be scarce, and I'm not sure about the ACNA. I suppose I could look at Lutheran or Orthodox options but neither of those really feels right.

 

[seeking.IAM]

I consider myself more traditional (a term I much prefer over "conservative") than liberal. For me the beauty of the Episcopal Church is that it is a big tent church with room for everybody. The parish I attend has people that are quite liberal and those who are very conservative. Folks seem to get along well, and to share the pew and cup without squabble. Minds seem to be focused on the centrality of Christ's message to which we can all agree. However, we reserve the right to quibble over matters such as whether to spend money fixing the organ.

If you can't worship among people different than you, perhaps you should consider the ACNA. But, if you can worship among the diversity of thought of God's people, by all means stay.

In my life, I have been a Wesleyan, a Methodist, and an Episcopalian attending a variety of parishes due to relocations. I have yet to have the pleasure of worshipping among a group of people whose totality of thought agrees 100% with my own.

 

[graceandpeace]

First, I would need to know what is meant by "conservative" & "liberal." The parameters that one may set for those terms may differ from someone else's parameters. I think I have some ideas of what you may mean, but well you know.

I think of myself these days as a traditional & mainline Christian. Traditional, in that I accept the Creeds, prefer worship in liturgy, believe in the importance of the sacraments, etc. Mainline, in that I am mostly accepting or open to learning from biblical scholarship - & open to diversity in people, & in the opinions of those people. That may not fit what others always mean by those terms, which is why I tried to give examples of what I mean.

FWIW, I've yet to find any church denomination on Earth that I 100% agree with all of the time, nor have I ever found a church (even "conservative" ones) where everyone shared the same opinions or beliefs. The difference will be found in how tolerant a particular church will be of open differences in opinions amongst parishioners, leaders.

I've been a regular in TEC for about a year. If TEC were not an option for whatever reason, I would likely look to the ELCA or another church in communion with TEC. If none of those were options for whatever reason, I would really struggle with other choices & I'm not sure where I would end up.

 

[Albion]

If you can't worship among people different than you, perhaps you should consider the ACNA. But, if you can worship among the diversity of thought of God's people, by all means stay.

Actually, the ACNA is quite diverse and accepting of a range of theological positions. It is hardly the "Conservative" alternative to TEC, although people seem to think that it is.

This may be important to say because Jinc is aware of TEC's profile; the issue is more a matter of how comfortable a traditionalist would be in a church body that is tolerant of him personally but is not supportive (or neutral) when it comes to his beliefs.

For some people, that position is sufficient. However, for others, it's not enough merely to be tolerated while what you believe in is rejected by your church.

 

[mark46]

1) I'm not sure why folks seem to have the goal of finding a church that 100% agrees with their own interpretation of theology, liturgy and practice. Such an approach will almost always lead to moving from church to church as we grow in understanding.

2) "Liberal" and "conservative" are labels that seem appropriate in the US, where denominations have split on their political views with regard to sexual issues. Of course, continuing Anglicanism is much older than this struggle. Their split was primarily in response to the ordination of women in the 70's.

IMHO, the labels of "liberal" and "conservative" are better applied to liturgical or theological issues.

In the US usage of the terms, many are very conservative with regard to theology, yet are liberal with regard to issues regarding sexuality.

3) In the end, the Creeds, sacraments and having a bishops should be a given, as it is throughout almost all of world Anglicanism (and Lutheranism and Catholicism and Orthodoxy). IMHO, what is important is to be part of a local church where one can live out our Christian life, and grow and be challenged in that life.

In centuries past, wars were fought over issues like baptism, predestination, and the role of the central Church. Now, we split denominations over issues regarding issues regarding sexuality. The requirements of the lesser sacraments of holy orders and marriage are so central to one's understanding of the faith that almost all churches have fragmented over these issues. I guess that mankind continues in his misunderstanding of what Christianity is really about. There is but one Church (in mu view, currently fractured into a few parts), and one faith. And the creeds do not critically depend on who we choose to ordain as priests.

 

[Albion]

IMHO, the labels of "liberal" and "conservative" are better applied to liturgical or theological issues.

In the US usage of the terms, many are very conservative with regard to theology, yet are liberal with regard to issues regarding sexuality.

I'm not going to disagree with you out of hand, but I can't think of any denominations which fit that bill.

Not to be redundant, but I think it comes down to what I wrote in my last post. Some people will feel fine and at ease belonging to a church that doesn't side with them on every issue of belief or practice, so long as it doesn't deny them the right to dissent. But other people will feel the church is tainted and that they, if tolerated, are still considered to be the black sheep in the congregation. IOW, merely "tolerated" or even patronized. They will not be comfortable feeling put into that position.

It's a personal matter more than "which church is right?" kind of thing.

 

[Liberasit]

1) I'm not sure why folks seem to have the goal of finding a church that 100% agrees with their own interpretation of theology, liturgy and practice. Such an approach will almost always lead to moving from church to church as we grow in understanding.

The old saying: if you find the perfect church, don't go - you will surely spoil it.

 

[Yardstick]

Things on the ground do not always reflect what national headlines would have you believe. Just about any diocese will have a spectrum of parishes on the conservative to liberal line. If I were you I would try out a few different places, TEC as well as ACNA and continuing if they are available. I would go to a bible study too if I were you. The combination of the liturgy, sermon, as well as discussion with parishioners will give you a pretty good and pretty quick feel for if that parish is for you.

 

[Albion]

Just about any diocese will have a spectrum of parishes on the conservative to liberal line.

This is true.

However, it doesn't resolve the conflict or potential conflict that I referred to.

 

[Pink Spider]

.
.
I am a member of the Anglican Diocese in Europe.

The Diocese in Europe (formally the Diocese of Gibraltar in Europe) is
geographically the largest diocese of the Church of England and arguably the
largest diocese in the Anglican Communion, covering some one-sixth of the
Earth's landmass, including Morocco, Europe (excluding the British Isles but
including Iceland), Turkey and the territory of the former Soviet Union.

In other words: The Diocese stretches from Greenland to Mongolia and
Kamchatka!

The diocese is attached to the Province of Canterbury. The Diocese of Gibraltar
was created on 29 September 1842.

In the country where I live, there are exactly 3 Anglican churches.

So: Not much to choose from...

I asked the Reverend of the church I attend: Why are things regarding
the Anglican Church so complicated in the US.

She replied bluntly: "Well, it's a free market."
The church I attend is rather liberal - but conservative people also
feel at home. .
.

 

[jinc1019]

I am on the more Liberal side of social issues and too new to the Episcopal church to know anything about traditional/conservative liturgy but my experience in the Episcopal church is that the main disagreements I see are people disagreeing on how the services should be conducted and not the content of sermons. I may be too new to even know what I am talking about but I thought I would share my experiences.

Thanks for sharing...That definitely does exist as well (and always has in Anglicanism by the way)

However, the content of the sermons has been a pretty big deal in my own experience, and was important enough to over 100,000 Anglicans for them to leave the TEC over it (and church practices).

 

[jinc1019]

In a moderate to liberal parish, I don't know. I suppose it would depend on what it looked like. I am not in all respects conservative. Some of the stuff I've heard in my parish from the conservative majority wasn't much better than what I've heard from the liberal folks and hardly more Anglican. So my parish is a little different all around, yet I've managed to make it my home, and it is a very reverent place to worship.

I think I could adapt to a moderate parish, but if I found myself stuck with a really wacky liturgy and awful preaching, I'm not really sure what I would do. I've been to train wreck truly weird liturgies in other churches, even one in particular that deviated so far from the norm I'm sure we were not celebrating a true Eucharist as the consecration had been so radically altered and re-interpreted -- not Episcopal services fortunately -- and those kinds of liturgies make me miserable and distracted. If I was stuck with a parish like that, I guess I'd have to look elsewhere, but I'm not sure where. Continuing Anglicans can be scarce, and I'm not sure about the ACNA. I suppose I could look at Lutheran or Orthodox options but neither of those really feels right.

Thanks for sharing...I truly understand! Believe me.

 

[jinc1019]

I consider myself more traditional (a term I much prefer over "conservative") than liberal. For me the beauty of the Episcopal Church is that it is a big tent church with room for everybody. The parish I attend has people that are quite liberal and those who are very conservative. Folks seem to get along well, and to share the pew and cup without squabble. Minds seem to be focused on the centrality of Christ's message to which we can all agree. However, we reserve the right to quibble over matters such as whether to spend money fixing the organ.

If you can't worship among people different than you, perhaps you should consider the ACNA. But, if you can worship among the diversity of thought of God's people, by all means stay.

In my life, I have been a Wesleyan, a Methodist, and an Episcopalian attending a variety of parishes due to relocations. I have yet to have the pleasure of worshipping among a group of people whose totality of thought agrees 100% with my own.

I definitely have no problem worshiping with people who think differently. My concern is with the preaching and the stuff that comes out of the national church. I have been to some TEC churches with some pretty crazy sermons, and I have seen some even crazier comments come out of the TEC's national leadership. Any thoughts on that?

 

[jinc1019]

First, I would need to know what is meant by "conservative" & "liberal." The parameters that one may set for those terms may differ from someone else's parameters. I think I have some ideas of what you may mean, but well you know.

I think of myself these days as a traditional & mainline Christian. Traditional, in that I accept the Creeds, prefer worship in liturgy, believe in the importance of the sacraments, etc. Mainline, in that I am mostly accepting or open to learning from biblical scholarship - & open to diversity in people, & in the opinions of those people. That may not fit what others always mean by those terms, which is why I tried to give examples of what I mean.

FWIW, I've yet to find any church denomination on Earth that I 100% agree with all of the time, nor have I ever found a church (even "conservative" ones) where everyone shared the same opinions or beliefs. The difference will be found in how tolerant a particular church will be of open differences in opinions amongst parishioners, leaders.

I've been a regular in TEC for about a year. If TEC were not an option for whatever reason, I would likely look to the ELCA or another church in communion with TEC. If none of those were options for whatever reason, I would really struggle with other choices & I'm not sure where I would end up.

Thanks for sharing!

I suppose using the terms "liberal" and "conservative" are pretty confusing.

I suppose what I mean by that is this: Would you feel more or less comfortable in the TEC of 1950? I would feel more comfortable. I suppose that's not the most clear way of explaining it, but I think you may get what I mean by that. I don't have a problem with biblical scholarship or thinking of the Bible in different ways, but my limits to that are probably lower than yours. Sexuality is obviously the big issue of today, but for me, that is just one issue that serves as a sort of microcosm of other, larger differences.

 

[jinc1019]

Actually, the ACNA is quite diverse and accepting of a range of theological positions. It is hardly the "Conservative" alternative to TEC, although people seem to think that it is.

This may be important to say because Jinc is aware of TEC's profile; the issue is more a matter of how comfortable a traditionalist would be in a church body that is tolerant of him personally but is not supportive (or neutral) when it comes to his beliefs.

For some people, that position is sufficient. However, for others, it's not enough merely to be tolerated while what you believe in is rejected by your church.

I think that sums things up nicely. I feel very conflicted about being in a church that tolerates my views but would prefer I didn't have them.