church is where 2 or 3 are gathered together isn't it?

[yeshuaslavejeff]

the ekklesia won't replace hospitals, welfare and the courts until Yahshua returns to rule with them.
...
the ekklesia do share everything when there is anything to share - in some countries they simply live outdoors, in the woods or in caves or even exposed to the elements because the ekklesia live the life of Yahshua Who Himself "had nowhere to lay His Own Head" at times. around the world in over 100 countries the ekklesia TODAY share in the suffering of Yahshua for the sake of Yhvh's Plan and for the healing of those who will turn around from sin and darkness to the Light.

non-christians do not see the Life or the Truth inside of buildings or state controlled groups.
but Yhvh does have a witness bearing testimony of the truth in every country, according to the Book. (Scripture) everyone has or gets the choice to turn to Him and be healed, even though many of them may be executed for doing so.

 

[vanilla8]

I can only speak of what I see, and I see an institutional church which barely cares for its members let alone reaching out to unbelievers.
But I believe is was God's desire that the church should be doing those things. He rebukes the shepherds that do not care for the sheep

Eze 34:2 Son of man, prophesy against the shepherds of Israel. Prophesy and say to them, So says the Lord Jehovah to the shepherds: Woe to the shepherds of Israel who feed themselves! Should not the shepherds feed the flocks?
Eze 34:3 You eat the fat and clothe yourselves with the wool; you kill the fat ones, but you do not feed the flock.
Eze 34:4 You have not made the weak strong, nor have you healed the sick, nor have you bound up the broken. You have not brought again those driven away, nor have you sought that which was lost; but you have ruled them with force and with cruelty.


The times are tumultuous.

 

[rob64]

I can only speak of what I see, and I see an institutional church which barely cares for its members let alone reaching out to unbelievers.
But I believe is was God's desire that the church should be doing those things. He rebukes the shepherds that do not care for the sheep

Eze 34:2 Son of man, prophesy against the shepherds of Israel. Prophesy and say to them, So says the Lord Jehovah to the shepherds: Woe to the shepherds of Israel who feed themselves! Should not the shepherds feed the flocks?
Eze 34:3 You eat the fat and clothe yourselves with the wool; you kill the fat ones, but you do not feed the flock.
Eze 34:4 You have not made the weak strong, nor have you healed the sick, nor have you bound up the broken. You have not brought again those driven away, nor have you sought that which was lost; but you have ruled them with force and with cruelty.


The times are tumultuous.

AMEN to that

 

[rob64]

I agree, the church should be far more active than it is.
It should be replacing hospitals, welfare and courts, especially for its own people.
(By which I mean, non-christians probably wouldn't be interested. til they see it works!)

You took the words right out of my mouth!!!

 

[nzguy]

Where two or three are gathered in my name-

that is from these lines:

Matthew 18:

14 Even so it is not the will of your Father which is in heaven, that one of these little ones should perish.
15 ¶ Moreover if thy brother shall trespass against thee, go and tell him his fault between thee and him alone: if he shall hear thee, thou hast gained thy brother.
16 But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.
17 And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican.
18 Verily I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever ye shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.
19 Again I say unto you, That if two of you shall agree on earth as touching any thing that they shall ask, it shall be done for them of my Father which is in heaven.
20 For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them.

the primary context of these verses is conflict resolution in an assembly or congregation... it isn't about the formation of a church.

Jesus does dwell in a church as the comforter.. but the determiner of one of Jesus' churches isn't of how many Christians are dwelling together.. but the authority those Christians have to become one of Jesus' churches. What do they believe about baptism and church membership? What do they believe about salvation? What do they believe 'church' is?

S.E. Anderson in Real Churches or a Fog came to the conclusion that in almost every instance the word 'church' is mentioned in the bible.. it is of a local assembly or congregation and the few times there is vagueness of it's meaning.. it is still meaning a congregation or assembly by the context of the church it is referring to.

Church singular standing for 'churches' plural..

In the Greek.. 'an ekklessia' is a church

there is no definite article before the word ekklessia in the Greek New Testament.. there is no 'the'.. so you could easily translate 'the body of Christ'.. to 'A body of Christ'.. and 'there is one body...' to 'one body....'

'the church' becomes 'a church' or churches plural.
'the body of Christ' becomes 'a body of Christ' or like a 'body of water'.. local and visible.

in cannot be both universal and local.. that distorts the analogy of a body.

When we speak of 'the bar' we don't mean a universal bar.. but multiple bars or the local one down the road..

When we speak of 'the post office' we don't mean a universal post office.. but multiple post offices.. or the one down the road.

When we speak of 'the school' we don't mean a universal school.. but multiple schools or the one down the road.

the same is for 'the body of Christ'.. it can be 'a body of Christ' or in the institutional sense.. multiple bodies of believers with Christ as the one head of the mall.

It is figurative language.. not a literal body of Christ.. when it comes to scripture about church.

think about it..

from

NZguy

 

[rob64]

Where two or three are gathered in my name-

that is from these lines:

Matthew 18:

14 Even so it is not the will of your Father which is in heaven, that one of these little ones should perish.
15 ¶ Moreover if thy brother shall trespass against thee, go and tell him his fault between thee and him alone: if he shall hear thee, thou hast gained thy brother.
16 But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.
17 And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican.
18 Verily I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever ye shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.
19 Again I say unto you, That if two of you shall agree on earth as touching any thing that they shall ask, it shall be done for them of my Father which is in heaven.
20 For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them.

the primary context of these verses is conflict resolution in an assembly or congregation... it isn't about the formation of a church.

Jesus does dwell in a church as the comforter.. but the determiner of one of Jesus' churches isn't of how many Christians are dwelling together.. but the authority those Christians have to become one of Jesus' churches. What do they believe about baptism and church membership? What do they believe about salvation? What do they believe 'church' is?

S.E. Anderson in Real Churches or a Fog came to the conclusion that in almost every instance the word 'church' is mentioned in the bible.. it is of a local assembly or congregation and the few times there is vagueness of it's meaning.. it is still meaning a congregation or assembly by the context of the church it is referring to.

Church singular standing for 'churches' plural..

In the Greek.. 'an ekklessia' is a church

there is no definite article before the word ekklessia in the Greek New Testament.. there is no 'the'.. so you could easily translate 'the body of Christ'.. to 'A body of Christ'.. and 'there is one body...' to 'one body....'

'the church' becomes 'a church' or churches plural.
'the body of Christ' becomes 'a body of Christ' or like a 'body of water'.. local and visible.

in cannot be both universal and local.. that distorts the analogy of a body.

When we speak of 'the bar' we don't mean a universal bar.. but multiple bars or the local one down the road..

When we speak of 'the post office' we don't mean a universal post office.. but multiple post offices.. or the one down the road.

When we speak of 'the school' we don't mean a universal school.. but multiple schools or the one down the road.

the same is for 'the body of Christ'.. it can be 'a body of Christ' or in the institutional sense.. multiple bodies of believers with Christ as the one head of the mall.

It is figurative language.. not a literal body of Christ.. when it comes to scripture about church.

think about it..

from

NZguy

The Holy Ghost is the comforter.
The entire context of these verses is Jesus telling how to deal with a brother who trespasses against us. It's about judging our brothers, and keeping it within the church. Thats why there are words such as "witnesses", "bind", "Loose", "established" These are legal words. He's saying in essence, If there are two or three witnesses , so that the matter will be established, you have my blessing.
That's all it means. He is't discussing two or three topics, or contexts.
It's really VERY simple. Man tries to make it into something it isn't.

 

[nzguy]

that is it.. it is about conflict resolution within a congregation

 

[rob64]

that is it.. it is about conflict resolution within a congregation

I concur, and thanx!

 

[marksman007]

Mat 18:18 Truly I say to you, Whatever you shall bind on earth shall occur, having been bound in Heaven; and whatever you shall loose on earth shall occur, having been loosed in Heaven.
Mat 18:19 Again I say to you that if two of you shall agree on earth as regarding anything that they shall ask, it shall be done for them by My Father in Heaven.
Mat 18:20 For where two or three are gathered together in My name, there I am in their midst.

May I suggest that the key here is the first words of verse 18…Truly I say unto you

This means that Jesus is starting on a new topic which is Jesus saying that binding and loosing can be done if two agree on anything because when two or three are gathered together in his name he is in the midst.

To be able to bind and loose you need more than one and you can do this when you are more than one because Jesus is there.

 

[rob64]

Mat 18:18 Truly I say to you, Whatever you shall bind on earth shall occur, having been bound in Heaven; and whatever you shall loose on earth shall occur, having been loosed in Heaven.
Mat 18:19 Again I say to you that if two of you shall agree on earth as regarding anything that they shall ask, it shall be done for them by My Father in Heaven.
Mat 18:20 For where two or three are gathered together in My name, there I am in their midst.

May I suggest that the key here is the first words of verse 18…Truly I say unto you

This means that Jesus is starting on a new topic which is Jesus saying that binding and loosing can be done if two agree on anything because when two or three are gathered together in his name he is in the midst.

To be able to bind and loose you need more than one and you can do this when you are more than one because Jesus is there.

"Truely I say to you", is not Jesus changing the subject. That, in and of itself, wouldn't even make sense. Why would He be talking about church discipline, and then just all of a sudden change the subject to something that has nothing to do with the orrigional? It just doesn't make sense. If that were the case, He would have mentioned it when He taught about binding the strongman of a house. But He didn't.
It's all one subject

You are describing a tradition which people cling to.

He is saying, when there are a few "witnesses", whatever they decide to do, they have His blessing. 'Binding' and 'loosing' in this context are legal terms.

His teaching is expounded upon, later. "...two or three witnesses, let everything be established..." If someone says they are a brother, and continues in the lifestyle of drunkenness, fornication, greed...excomunicate them from the church. This will put him out there in the devil's territory, until he repents.

I have personally bound evil spirits from church services. It DOES NOT TAKE TWO OR THREE TO MAKE IT HAPPEN.

 

[marksman007]

"Truely I say to you", is not Jesus changing the subject

Thankyou for your opinion. I will take it into consideration when I am lecturing on the subject to my students.

 

[rob64]

Thankyou for your opinion. I will take it into consideration when I am lecturing on the subject to my students.

Yea... "Truely I say to you"... or - KJV, "Verily"... is another way of saying, "Hey, I'm telling you the truth here"

And it is indeed a good subject!
HIS WORDS ARE TRUTH, BECAUSE HE IS THE TRUTH !

Happy lecturing!