Cessation of gifts of the Spirit doctrine mandatory?

[flightofsevens]

Hi brethren, wanted to get your takes on this topic. Personally, I do not see clear scriptural evidence that the gifts have ceased, whether implicitly or explicitly.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Hi brethren, wanted to get your takes on this topic. Personally, I do not see clear scriptural evidence that the gifts have ceased, whether implicitly or explicitly.

You are totally correct. There is no Scriptural evidence that the gifts have ceased. In fact they kept right on going into the 3rd Century. The Eastern Orthodox Church had them at some level right into the 12th Century.

What caused the supernatural gifts to be put on the back burner was the influence of the pagan philosopher Plato in the 3rd Century, the notion in the Middle Ages that sickness was part of Christian suffering, the Great Enlightenment of the 18th Century when Science was dominant, and Darwinism in the 19th Century.

Benjamin Warfield wrote a book in 1918 which set out his cessationist views, and modern cessationists model their views on his writing. But his views are not based on Scripture, but his own theological speculations and deductions.

I have seen overwhelming evidence that the gifts have not ceased and are still operating today. I have just viewed a DVD of 123 testimonies of instant, miraculous healings given my ordinary people from all walks of life, who have been healed of the whole range of medical conditions, many of which were diagnosed by medical professionals, and the healings were discovered when they went back for xrays, scans, and found the conditions had completely disappeared. This was after prayer for the healings.

There is a good book written by Jack Deere, "Surprised By the Power of The Spirit". In this book, the author sets out the best answer to cessationism that I have ever seen. I recommend you obtain this book and have a read of it. I think it will be very helpful to you.

Jack Deere was a professor at Dallas Theological Seminary, which is an avowed cessationist institution, and Jack himself was cessationist in his views and taught cessationism. Then the Holy Spirit got hold of him and convinced him otherwise. He sets out his journey in his book.

 

[AMR]

Let's try to keep in mind this is a confessionally based forum, a safe haven for confessional Presbyterians.

Advocating that cessationism, which is, for example, part of the Westminster Standards, has no Biblical warrant is not allowed. Keep in mind that the Confessional view is not arguing that God's providence ceases working in extraordinary ways. Instead the Confessional view argues that Scripture teaches that the Apostolic gifts referenced in the Scriptures had a purpose which ceased given the fullness of Revelation.

The task of the apostle was shown as temporary by their task of laying the foundation of the Church. See Ephesians 2:20; 1 Cor. 3:10. Laying the foundation does not take forever. Laying the foundation stops and then come others building upon that foundation: ministers, teachers, etc.

For example, the WCF Chapter 1, section 6 reads:

[FONT=&quot]VI. The whole counsel of God concerning all things necessary for his own glory, man's salvation, faith and life, is either expressly set down in Scripture, or by good and necessary consequence may be deduced from Scripture: unto which nothing at any time is to be added, whether by new revelations of the Spirit or traditions of men. (m) Nevertheless, we acknowledge the inward illumination of the Spirit of God to be necessary for the saving understanding of such things as are revealed in the Word: (n) and that there are some circumstances concerning the worship of God, and government of the Church, common to human actions and societies, which are to be ordered by the light of nature, and Christian prudence, according to the general rules of the Word, which are always to be observed. (o)

m. 2 Tim. 3:15-17; Gal. 1:8,9; 2 Thess. 2:2.
n. Jn. 6:45; 1 Cor. 2:9-12.
o. 1 Cor. 11:13,14; 1 Cor. 14:26,40.
[/FONT]

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Let's try to keep in mind this is a confessionally based forum, a safe haven for confessional Presbyterians.

Advocating that cessationism, which is, for example, part of the Westminster Standards, has no Biblical warrant is not allowed. Keep in mind that the Confessional view is not arguing that God's providence ceases working in extraordinary ways. Instead the Confessional view argues that Scripture teaches that the Apostolic gifts referenced in the Scriptures had a purpose which ceased given the fullness of Revelation.

The task of the apostle was shown as temporary by their task of laying the foundation of the Church. See Ephesians 2:20; 1 Cor. 3:10. Laying the foundation does not take forever. Laying the foundation stops and then come others building upon that foundation: ministers, teachers, etc.

For example, the WCF Chapter 1, section 6 reads:

[FONT=&quot]VI. The whole counsel of God concerning all things necessary for his own glory, man's salvation, faith and life, is either expressly set down in Scripture, or by good and necessary consequence may be deduced from Scripture: unto which nothing at any time is to be added, whether by new revelations of the Spirit or traditions of men. (m) Nevertheless, we acknowledge the inward illumination of the Spirit of God to be necessary for the saving understanding of such things as are revealed in the Word: (n) and that there are some circumstances concerning the worship of God, and government of the Church, common to human actions and societies, which are to be ordered by the light of nature, and Christian prudence, according to the general rules of the Word, which are always to be observed. (o)[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]m. 2 Tim. 3:15-17; Gal. 1:8,9; 2 Thess. 2:2.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]n. Jn. 6:45; 1 Cor. 2:9-12.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]o. 1 Cor. 11:13,14; 1 Cor. 14:26,40.[/FONT]

I am an elder of the Presbyterian Church of NZ, and I know that in our country, We put the Scriptures at a higher priority to the Westminster Confession of Faith. From my knowledge of the Westminster Confession, it acknowledges that the Scriptures are the foundation of faith and practice.

While it is acknowledged that the general use of the supernatural gifts did fade away during the 3rd and 4th Centuries, there is absolutely no teaching in Scripture that it was planned by God for that to happen. In fact, it was the influence of Plato, the incorrect view of sickness as Christian suffering (something else the Scripture does not teach), the Great Enlightenment of the 18th Century, and Darwinism of the 19th Century. So, the cessation of the supernatural gifts was man's doing, not God's.

Many traditional churches are accepting a non cessationist view after realising that it was man's corrupted philosophy that has caused the supernatural to fade away, not anything contained in Scripture.

The Baptist church went through this a few years ago. They had to rethink their position on cessationsm because the denomination of declining and if they had not changed their position, the denomination would have been in big trouble.

Now the Presbyterian Church is declining everywhere because it is largely irrelevant to the needs of the communities around them. Many churches are just there to serve the needs of their members. But there are some churches that have rejected the cessationist view and have welcomed the gifts of the Spirit into their churches. Those churches have turned around, growing, saving souls, healing the sick, and having a strong impact on the communities around them.

There are testimonies of healing from ordinary people of all sorts of medical conditions, and the sicknesses and medical conditions were diagnosed by medical professionals, and the healings were validated by the same professions, supported by before and after xrays, ultrasound scans, MRI scans, etc.

Now, even just one supernatural instant healing totally invalidates the cessationist view and makes it nonsense. But I have heard over 100 testimonies of instant miraculous healings as the result of prayer which shows me that the miraculous ministry of instant healing certainly has not ceased.

So, actual experience of many healed Christians totally invalidates the cessationist view.

 

[AMR]

I think you are confusing the providential acts of God wherein healing may occur with the gifts of healing supposedly bestowed upon others after the apostolic era. No on denies God's providence is still operative. The issue here is the apostolic gifts and whether or not they remain after the close of the canon.

Why do you show a Pentecostal icon when you admit to being a Presbyterian?

 

[Apologetic_Warrior]

I am an elder of the Presbyterian Church of NZ, and I know that in our country, We put the Scriptures at a higher priority to the Westminster Confession of Faith. From my knowledge of the Westminster Confession, it acknowledges that the Scriptures are the foundation of faith and practice.

Sola Scriptura is our rule of faith, the standard and guideline for everything. I am a Presbyterian too and I think it is great the Church you attend holds so firmly to Sola Scriptura.

I wouldn't be too harsh with B.B. Warfield, he was a brilliant man, a giant of the faith, and a staunch defender of the Bible. I can't say I agree with all of his views either, but I do not discredit him either for his imperfections. That said, I think there is truth in your criticism of him though. I find it very difficult to be open about my non-cessationist view. I do not want to give people the wrong impression because it is all to easy to get a wrong impression. When I do talk about it, I like to mention other non-cessationist Calvinists like D.A. Carson and Wayne Grudem. I do believe if the reigns are loosened up a bit, charismatic Calvinism could send waves of revival not seen since Johnathan Edwards time. However, knowing better, we have a responsibility to handle and teach this differently than our Pentecostal/Charismatic brethren. What do I mean?

First, the emphasis of Church services should not revolve around spiritual gifts. The emphasis should be on the Gospel of Christ, on discipleship, teaching the Doctrines of Grace, expository preaching, equipping believers so that they can defend the faith in a biblical God glorifying way.

Second, there should be order in the Church. All too often in Pentecostal/Charismatic services order is disrupted and disregarded. Have you ever thought it strange, that God would desire to distract and disrupt a service, even calling attention on a member of the congregation? My thought on the gift of tongues is that it is a gift better kept in private, or in home Church with like minded believers. Whatever revelations a believer might have, should also be kept private, and any receiver should always test them by Sola Scriptura, and they should be in line with Scripture, in other words, nothing "new". The God we serve is not a God of confusion and whatever gifts He graciously bestows on us, are for His glory alone.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

I think you are confusing the providential acts of God wherein healing may occur with the gifts of healing supposedly bestowed upon others after the apostolic era. No on denies God's providence is still operative. The issue here is the apostolic gifts and whether or not they remain after the close of the canon.

Why do you show a Pentecostal icon when you admit to being a Presbyterian?

Firstly, you would be hard pressed to show me any teaching in Scripture that says that the apostolic gifts ceased after the close of the canon. However, we might agree to disagree there.

It is a pity that I cannot put more than one icon on my profile. I was converted in the AOG in 1966, joined a Charismatic church in 1973, joined an Anglican church in 1978, A baptist church in 1983 (where I was a deacon), and became in Presbyterian in 1996.

I have a Calvinist/Puritan theological base, but also believe in the gifts of the Spirit never having been withdrawn from the church, although my reasons for leaving the Pentecostal movement was because of the excesses that I could not see in Scripture.

There are a lot of traditional churches now realising that the apostolic gifts of the Spirit (and these gifts were not confined to the 12 original Apostles, as the book of Acts clearly shows) are still available to the church today. They are God's tools of trade, which are still essential if we are to combat neo paganism and other spiritual forces that are opposing the Gospel.

So, if I could, I will include the Pentecostal, Charismatic, Baptist and Presbyterian icons in my profile because that is a more accurate description of who I am in Christ.

But I put Christ well before any movement or denomination, because He revealed Himself to me outside of any church (actually in the middle of a golf course at 11pm under a starry sky). He showed me that I was to walk before Him and not be limited in by faith by any denomination, but to follow Him and be true to His Word.

I love the Presbyterian system of theology and government because I see that as closest to the model set before us in the Book of Acts.

I believe that many cessationists are that way not because they believe that God has actually withdrawn the gifts, but they are repelled by Pentecostalist excesses and the way they practice the gifts. But I believe that the Holy Spirit is kind and gentle in the way He does things, and He is patient and does not force anything on anyone. Therefore I think that when the gifts of the Spirit are used on the foundation of the fruit of the Spirit, people are drawn closer to Christ and they get their spiritual and physical needs met.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Sola Scriptura is our rule of faith, the standard and guideline for everything. I am a Presbyterian too and I think it is great the Church you attend holds so firmly to Sola Scriptura.

I wouldn't be too harsh with B.B. Warfield, he was a brilliant man, a giant of the faith, and a staunch defender of the Bible. I can't say I agree with all of his views either, but I do not discredit him either for his imperfections. That said, I think there is truth in your criticism of him though. I find it very difficult to be open about my non-cessationist view. I do not want to give people the wrong impression because it is all to easy to get a wrong impression. When I do talk about it, I like to mention other non-cessationist Calvinists like D.A. Carson and Wayne Grudem. I do believe if the reigns are loosened up a bit, charismatic Calvinism could send waves of revival not seen since Johnathan Edwards time. However, knowing better, we have a responsibility to handle and teach this differently than our Pentecostal/Charismatic brethren. What do I mean?

First, the emphasis of Church services should not revolve around spiritual gifts. The emphasis should be on the Gospel of Christ, on discipleship, teaching the Doctrines of Grace, expository preaching, equipping believers so that they can defend the faith in a biblical God glorifying way.

Second, there should be order in the Church. All too often in Pentecostal/Charismatic services order is disrupted and disregarded. Have you ever thought it strange, that God would desire to distract and disrupt a service, even calling attention on a member of the congregation? My thought on the gift of tongues is that it is a gift better kept in private, or in home Church with like minded believers. Whatever revelations a believer might have, should also be kept private, and any receiver should always test them by Sola Scriptura, and they should be in line with Scripture, in other words, nothing "new". The God we serve is not a God of confusion and whatever gifts He graciously bestows on us, are for His glory alone.

Thank you for your post. I agree completely. I couldn't have expressed it better myself. I appreciate your remarks concerning B B Warfield. If I can get a copy of his book, I will read it so I can see him in a better light.

 

[Jim the Puritan]

I am in a Presbyterian church that believes the gifts of the Holy Spirit continue. And we see them all the time, especially in healing services, where many people have been healed.

And no, we are not "holy rollers.'' Our healing services are done decently and in order, with the pastors, elders and members of the prayer team praying over and laying hands on those that are seeking healing. Many who are active in our church's prayer and healing ministry are doctors, nurses and others in the health professions. They have no interest in faking healings. But they will all testify that healings occur.

The fact is that it is entirely in God's sovereignty whether He will choose to heal someone. Thus, we cannot explain why one person will be healed and another will not. As far as we can tell, it does not depend on the faith of either the person seeking to be healed or the person(s) praying for healing. We never make any representation that anyone will be healed who comes to a healing service, and we make it clear that it is up to God whether a healing will occur. But the fact is that it does happen, and if a whole church is praying it can have a powerful effect.

In Scripture, God directs us to pray for healing, especially the elders of the church.

 

[SOLICHRISTOS]

I believe that this is both an appropriate section of the forums for us PCUSA'ers to be in but at the time a difficult one.

The Sticky states basically that we should be in agreement with the Westminster Standards.

But it also states that this subsection is for "Presbyterians."

The problem is that much of the PCUSA identify and consider themselves Presbyterian but are not in agreement with the Westminster Standards and or are not Reformed and do not accept Reformed Theology.

I'm personally in favor of a congregation being open and encouraging the practice of the supernatural gifting of the Spirit. but in an orderly Christocentric way. In other words, I think this focus can very easily become idolatrous.

Now I believe that this is contrary to the Westminster Standards. But I am a Presbyterian.

Dave

 

[flightofsevens]

Now I believe that this is contrary to the Westminster Standards. But I am a Presbyterian.

Dave

Which is exactly where it comes down to for me. I know that speaking of the gifts being in operation still is against the WCF, but I am very much Reformed. I hope I do not come under scrutinization in the PCA church i'm planning on joining.

 

[Jim the Puritan]

I'm personally in favor of a congregation being open and encouraging the practice of the supernatural gifting of the Spirit. but in an orderly Christocentric way. In other words, I think this focus can very easily become idolatrous.

Dave

I agree with this and that is one reason why I think some (but not all, by any means) charismatic and pentecostal churches can become prey to bad teaching and leadership. You can become too focused on the "miraculous," just as you can become too focused on doing good works without having faith behind it (the "social justice" movement). It can also become manipulative, such as saying that if you don't speak in tongues or have the ability to heal someone, you are lacking in faith, which is totally wrong theology.

Also, if you are going to be hoping to exercise the gifts of the Spirit, you have to recognize that immediately the Enemy is going to try mess that up, mainly trying through the use of false spirits (whether direct spiritual opposition or false teachers that rise up in the church) to get you off on the wrong path. That is what spiritual warfare is all about. So you have to be cognizant of that and be prepared to fight it. For example, among other things, our prayer group ministry is devoted to praying for our church every day, and especially the pastors and elders, that they are not led astray and that we continue to stand strong against the Enemy.

As for Presbyterians needing to be cessationist, in our efforts to deal with 10-A etc., we have approached the EPC, and have asked, among other things, whether they would object to our joining because of our beliefs about the gifts of the Spirit continuing. They have responded to us that they are also not cessationist, and also take the position the gifts continue.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

John Calvin states in his commentary on 1 Corinthians 12 and 14 that the miracles are to show that Jesus is really alive and the Gospel is really true. He acknowledges that there is no Scriptural teaching that says that they are meant to cease, but he says that they probably died out when the church went apostate and popery and priestcraft dominated the Church. He says that the gift of tongues was probably withdrawn from the Church by God because too many were misusing it and He withdrew it to prevent any further discrediting of the work of the Holy Spirit.

The Puritans sincerely believed that the supernatural was not in operation in their churches, but they did not give clear reasons for it. The Scottish Covenanters though used the gift of prophecy very effectively and saw the supernatural power of God working through them.

The problem is that the instances of miracles that continued into the Middle Ages were suppressed by Church Historian to maintain consistency with their own theology, rather than to acknowledge that the miracles were still occurring in the same way that they were in the Book of Acts.

But there is a history called Christianizing the Roman Empire written by a guy called Ramsay McMullen, and because he did not have a theogical prejudice, he included many instances of miraculous events.

For example, St Gregory cast a demon out of the statue of Apollo so that the high priest could not do his duties, and so all the pagans in the area came to Christ because they saw that Jesus was more powerful than the pagan demon.

St Benedict, the guy who built the Benedictine monastery on top of Monte Cassino, raised a dead worker who was crushed by a falling wall, through intercessory prayer.

These are just two of the events recorded. If anyone were to explore the documents in the hidden vaults of the Vatican to see the really true stories of what went on through the centuries in the Church, they were certainly leave their cessationism behind in the face of overwhelming accounts of miracles that happened.

The truth is that cessationist theologians have suppressed the truth to protect their own theological positions, rather than be true to Scriptural teaching.

 

[Apologetic_Warrior]

For example, the WCF Chapter 1, section 6 reads:

[FONT=&quot]VI. The whole counsel of God concerning all things necessary for his own glory, man's salvation, faith and life, is either expressly set down in Scripture, or by good and necessary consequence may be deduced from Scripture: unto which nothing at any time is to be added, whether by new revelations of the Spirit or traditions of men. (m) Nevertheless, we acknowledge the inward illumination of the Spirit of God to be necessary for the saving understanding of such things as are revealed in the Word: (n) and that there are some circumstances concerning the worship of God, and government of the Church, common to human actions and societies, which are to be ordered by the light of nature, and Christian prudence, according to the general rules of the Word, which are always to be observed. (o)

m. 2 Tim. 3:15-17; Gal. 1:8,9; 2 Thess. 2:2.
n. Jn. 6:45; 1 Cor. 2:9-12.
o. 1 Cor. 11:13,14; 1 Cor. 14:26,40.
[/FONT]

Perhaps my interpretation of WCF is a little off base, but from the above, I honestly do not see incompatibility with the non-cessationist view. Not many non-cessationists argue in favor of putting "new" revelation on the same level of authority as Scripture (and never should), so non-cessationist can agree with not adding new revelation to Scripture. The "traditions of men" part is interesting, considering traditions like Christmas and Easter which to the best of my knowledge were not celebrated by Christians in Scripture. However like prophetic uttering given by God the Holy Spirit (or new revelations), they are not to be added to Scripture nor held on the same level of authority. Yet those traditions are practiced today. It seems to me Chapter 1 Section 6, the underlined portion specifically, is referring to the canon of Scripture, and it's closure. The phrase "apostolic gifts" is not found there (maybe somewhere else in WCF, I am by no means well versed with WCF). I guess what I am saying is, if it refers to ending of "apostolic gifts", the meaning is certainly not plain or obvious in that particular section.

I also believe it would also be a misunderstanding to take the phrase "saving understanding" from the section above and try to make an argument against infant salvation, or an argument that knowledge saves. I guess what I'm getting at is the importance of context.

Something which has always irritated me, on this subject, while we're on it, and discussing in a friendly manner among Presbyterian brethren, is when it comes to gifts of the Spirit, the picking and choosing of them, I do not understand how or why, only specific ones are considered no longer in operation. We hold to Sola Scriptura, and nothing in Scripture has ever convinced me of the cessationist view. Perhaps it is easier for me, having been raised by non-cessationist parents, but there are disadvantages with that too. Anyway, I may not say much more, I do not believe this is an issue to divide over, I often have, and am willing to be silent on differences of interpretation of whether the more...attention grabbing gifts are still in operation today.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

There is a confusion among some groups that believe in the present day use of prophecy, where there is a mixture of Old and New Testament prophetic style utterances. In fact, New Testament prophecy is quite different from OT prophecy in that NT prophecy is for the building up and strengthening of converted Christians and is for use in Christian church services.

Someone getting up and giving an OT style prophecy, revealing sin, predicting future events in a KJV English style of stentorious speaking, is not prophesying according to what Paul taught NT prophecy should be.

Hebrews tells us that in previous times God spoke revelation and instruction through prophets to the nation of Israel, but in these last days, He speaks through His Son. In another place it says that the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.

In my view, NT prophecy is made up of "love letters" from God to comfort, exhort, and encourage Christian believers. It is not to reveal sin, because that was dealt with on the Cross. It is not to reveal future events, except in very rare cases, not the norm. It is certainly not for the purpose of making it appear that a certain "prophet" or preacher has a closer walk or ear to God than those of the normal "herd".

I believe that one of the most effective and encouraging prophecies I have heard is the simple sentence" "Jesus has known you since before you were born, and He loves you."

 

[Jim the Puritan]

In my opinion, misuse of the Holy Spirit is most prevalent in the liberal churches. In other words, they usually justify their embrace of sinful behavior on the grounds that "God is Still Speaking" through the Holy Spirit (the UCC), or the "Spirit is Doing a New Thing" (Episcopal Church). This is usually to claim endorsement by the Spirit of fornication and homosexual sex in these churches, or homosexual "marriage," as well as other things contrary to Scripture. They never seem to deal with the problem that any "new thing" that God does must be consistent with Scripture.

 

[SOLICHRISTOS]

In my view, NT prophecy is made up of "love letters" from God to comfort, exhort, and encourage Christian believers. It is not to reveal sin, because that was dealt with on the Cross. It is not to reveal future events, except in very rare cases, not the norm. It is certainly not for the purpose of making it appear that a certain "prophet" or preacher has a closer walk or ear to God than those of the normal "herd".

I believe that one of the most effective and encouraging prophecies I have heard is the simple sentence" "Jesus has known you since before you were born, and He loves you."

 

[cajunhillbilly]

In my opinion, misuse of the Holy Spirit is most prevalent in the liberal churches. In other words, they usually justify their embrace of sinful behavior on the grounds that "God is Still Speaking" through the Holy Spirit (the UCC), or the "Spirit is Doing a New Thing" (Episcopal Church). This is usually to claim endorsement by the Spirit of fornication and homosexual sex in these churches, or homosexual "marriage," as well as other things contrary to Scripture. They never seem to deal with the problem that any "new thing" that God does must be consistent with Scripture.

And since the Episcopal Church supposedly recognizes tradition but on a lower position to Scripture, they need to recognize that any "new thing" has to agree with tradition, with a small t