Catholic Question: the Filioque

[Knowledge3]

Do Catholics everywhere recite the Nicene Creed during Mass with the Filioque addition to the original Nicene Creed?

 

[nyj]

The filoque is recited in the Nicene Creed of all Latin Rite Masses. Some Eastern Rites do omit it.

 

[Knowledge3]

The filoque is recited in the Nicene Creed of all Latin Rite Masses. Some Eastern Rites do omit it.

How come is the Filioque recited in Latin Rite Mass? Did

St. Padre Pio celebrate his Latin Mass with the Filioque?

 

[nyj]

How come is the Filioque recited in Latin Rite Mass?

Why wouldn't it? This is the issue which played a major part in the Schism between our two churches, it should come as no surprise that it is still recited.

St. Padre Pio celebrate his Latin Mass with the Filioque?

Yes.

 

[Knowledge3]

Does HH Benedict XVI recite the Filioque when HH says the Pontifical Mass at the Vatican?

 

[stivvy]

All Byzantine Catholic (EC) churches have replaced our liturgy books and have omited it from our liturgy. By order of Arch Bishop Basil.

 

[Knowledge3]

I just had a profound revelation. But that's for another day.

I have a problem with the Filioque because it abberates the Holy Trinity in a komlpicated theological exegesis explaining why. But I won't get into that now . . . .

I've studied a great deal about the Holy Catholic Church and will continue to learn more about it. It is highly possible that may convert to the RCC Roman Catholic faith in the near future.

I feel the Lord and His precious Holy Spirit guiding me to the full truth about the RCC.

That's why I do NOT want to take RCIA.

And to add, I did NOT appreciate the insults by Eastern Orthodox Christians toward the Holy Catholic Church. That is a negative in my book.

 

[stivvy]

Are you saying the Catholic Church or the Roman Catholic Church? (EC or WC?)

 

[Knowledge3]

Are you saying the Catholic Church or the Roman Catholic Church? (EC or WC?)

No sir. I meant the Holy Roman Church of the Vatican and of the Magisterium. In full communion with HH Pope Benedict XVI and the Roman See.

 

[nyj]

Does HH Benedict XVI recite the Filioque when HH says the Pontifical Mass at the Vatican?

Yes.

 

[Carrye]

Do you understand the filioque issue? Do you understand what it means to say it or to omit it? Do you understand the theology of it, how it is explained, and how both are two different ways of explaining the relationship between Father, Son, and Holy Spirit?

If Latin Rite Catholics say it and many Catholics of the Eastern Rites do not, the two ideas must be reconcilable . . . and they are.

 

[Knowledge3]

Do you understand the filioque issue? Do you understand what it means to say it or to omit it? Do you understand the theology of it, how it is explained, and how both are two different ways of explaining the relationship between Father, Son, and Holy Spirit?

Hello Carrye

The original Nicene Creed without the Filioque states that the Holy Spirit procceeds from the Father alone. To say "and the Son" distorts and aberrates the perfect Trinitarian nature of the Father as the source and Fountainhead of the Trinity, The Son is the Only-begotten of the Father. To imply And the Son subordinates the Holy Spirit and distorts the original Nicene statement that the Spirit proceeds from the Father alone. With the Filioque you have a dual procession of the same Spirit from both the Father and Son. It is not necessary to add the Filioque to the original creed because the Father can mediate through the Son in singular (eternal) procession without any distortion/aberration of the Holy Trinity.

 

[stivvy]

Hello Carrye

The original Nicene Creed without Filioque stats that the Holy Spirit procceeds from the Father alone. To say "and the Son" distorts and abberates the perfect Trinitarian nature of the Father as the source and Fountainhead of the Trinity, The Son is the Only-begotten of the Father. To imply And the Son subordinates the Holy Spirit and distorts the original Nicene statement that the Spirit proceeds from the Father alone. With the Filioque you have a dual procession of the same Spirit from both the Father and Son. It is not necessary to add the Filioque to the original creed because the Father can mediate through the Son in a singular procession without any distortion/aberration of the Holy Trinity.

I would say that you have a major issue if you cannot agree to the Creed of the Latin (RC) church but are being called to her.

That is why I was asking if you explored the Eastern Catholic church who's Creed is as you believe it to be.

I have learned that you do not argue it here but, instead, respect each Rite's possition and let it be.

 

[Carrye]

To say "and the Son" distorts and abberates the perfect Trinitarian nature of the Father as the source and Fountainhead of the Trinity, The Son is the Only-begotten of the Father.

That's where we disagree.

To imply And the Son subordinates the Holy Spirit and distorts the original Nicene statement that the Spirit proceeds from the Father alone. With the Filioque you have a dual procession of the same Spirit from both the Father and Son.

The Holy Spirit is equal in power, majesty, and divinity to the Father and the Son. The Holy Spirit is no more subordinate to the Son than the Son is to the Father. The procession of the Spirit comes from the love (the eternal, complete self-gift) between Father and Son. The Father gives to the Son, and the Son gives to the Father - eternally. From that eternal, complete self-gift proceeds the Spirit.

One could say that because the Father initiated that action in his begettal of the Son, that from the Father, through the Son, the Spirit proceeds. That is a perfectly accurate statement as I understand. That is what the Orthodox would hold, and that is what some of my fellow Catholics would hold. I have no problem professing that statement either.

 

[stivvy]

This is not going to have a good outcome if you go down this road. I am telling you, just respect it and drop it.

 

[AMDG]

No sir. I meant the Holy Roman Church of the Vatican and of the Magisterium. In full communion with HH Pope Benedict XVI and the Roman See.

Eastern Catholic is in full communion with the Pope. Eastern and Western Catholic are Rites in the one Catholic Church.

 

[Knowledge3]

That's where we disagree.



The Holy Spirit is equal in power, majesty, and divinity to the Father and the Son. The Holy Spirit is no more subordinate to the Son than the Son is to the Father. The procession of the Spirit comes from the love (the eternal, complete self-gift) between Father and Son. The Father gives to the Son, and the Son gives to the Father - eternally. From that eternal, complete self-gift proceeds the Spirit.

One could say that because the Father initiated that action in his begettal of the Son, that from the Father, through the Son, the Spirit proceeds. That is a perfectly accurate statement as I understand. That is what the Orthodox would hold, and that is what some of my fellow Catholics would hold. I have no problem professing that statement either.

BTW: Carrye St. Photios the Great would disagree with you.

I will consider this concise and theological explanation in support of the Filioque.

I need your Rosary prayers for me because I am considering converting to Catholicism in the near future. (A PERMANENT DESCISION)

 

[Carrye]

I need your Rosary prayers for me because I am considering converting to Catholicism in the near future.

I will pray for you in any case. I have a deep respect for my Orthodox brothers and sisters.

 

[L3g3nd]

BTW: Carrye St. Photios the Great would disagree with you.

I will consider this concise and theological explanation in support of the Filioque.

I need your Rosary prayers for me because I am considering converting to Catholicism in the near future. (A PERMANENT DESCISION)

I will pray for you, and I do hope you come into the fullness of truth found in the Roman Catholic Church, but I also implore you to look further at the issue of the filioque. The filioque is an immutable part of Roman Catholic doctrine, and one which all the faithful are called to believe.

Perhaps this will help: http://www.catholic.com/library/filioque.asp

A few quotes from the link:

The quotations below show that the early Church Fathers, both Latin and Greek, recognized the same thing, saying that the Spirit proceeds "from the Father and the Son" or "from the Father through the Son."

These expressions mean the same thing because everything the Son has is from the Father. The proceeding of the Spirit from the Son is something the Son himself received from the Father. The procession of the Spirit is therefore ultimately rooted in the Father but goes through the Son.

Today many Eastern Orthodox bishops are putting aside old prejudices and again acknowledging that there need be no separation between the two communions on this issue. Eastern Orthodox Bishop Kallistos Ware (formerly Timothy Ware), who once adamantly opposed the filioque doctrine, states: "The filioque controversy which has separated us for so many centuries is more than a mere technicality, but it is not insoluble. Qualifying the firm position taken when I wrote [my book] The Orthodox Church twenty years ago, I now believe, after further study, that the problem is more in the area of semantics and different emphases than in any basic doctrinal differences" (Diakonia, quoted from Elias Zoghby’s A Voice from the Byzantine East, 43).

The link also contains plenty of quotes from the early church fathers on the subject.

 

[DiaconoGuillermo]

On August 6, 2000 the Congregation For The Doctrine Of The Faith published a declaration entitled "Dominus Jesum" from which I quote the opening paragraph:

CONGREGATION FOR THE DOCTRINE OF THE FAITH

DECLARATION
"DOMINUS IESUS"
ON THE UNICITY AND SALVIFIC UNIVERSALITY
OF JESUS CHRIST AND THE CHURCH

​

INTRODUCTION

1. The Lord Jesus, before ascending into heaven, commanded his disciples to proclaim the Gospel to the whole world and to baptize all nations: “Go into the whole world and proclaim the Gospel to every creature. He who believes and is baptized will be saved; he who does not believe will be condemned” (Mk 16:15-16); “All power in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Go therefore and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always, until the end of the world” (Mt 28:18-20; cf. Lk 24:46-48; Jn 17:18,20,21; Acts 1:8).

The Church's universal mission is born from the command of Jesus Christ and is fulfilled in the course of the centuries in the proclamation of the mystery of God, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, and the mystery of the incarnation of the Son, as saving event for all humanity. The fundamental contents of the profession of the Christian faith are expressed thus: “I believe in one God, the Father, Almighty, maker of heaven and earth, of all that is, seen and unseen. I believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ, the only Son of God, eternally begotten of the Father, God from God, Light from Light, true God from true God, begotten, not made, of one being with the Father. Through him all things were made. For us men and for our salvation, he came down from heaven: by the power of the Holy Spirit he became incarnate of the Virgin Mary, and became man. For our sake he was crucified under Pontius Pilate; he suffered death and was buried. On the third day he rose again in accordance with the Scriptures; he ascended into heaven and is seated at the right hand of the Father. He will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead, and his kingdom will have no end. I believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life, who proceeds from the Father. With the Father and the Son he is worshipped and glorified. He has spoken through the prophets. I believe in one holy catholic and apostolic Church. I acknowledge one baptism for the forgiveness of sins. I look for the resurrection of the dead, and the life of the world to come”.1

And it was signed:

The Sovereign Pontiff John Paul II, at the Audience of June 16, 2000, granted to the undersigned Cardinal Prefect of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, with sure knowledge and by his apostolic authority, ratified and confirmed this Declaration, adopted in Plenary Session and ordered its publication.

Rome, from the Offices of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, August 6, 2000, the Feast of the Transfiguration of the Lord.

Joseph Card. Ratzinger
Prefect
​

Tarcisio Bertone, S.D.B.
Archbishop Emeritus of Vercelli
Secretary​

End Note 1

(1) First Council of Constantinople, Symbolum Constantinopolitanum: DS 150.

The entire document can be found at: http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/c...con_cfaith_doc_20000806_dominus-iesus_en.html

Note that the signatory to the document "Joseph Card. Ratzinger" now "Pope Benidict XVI" the Creed from the Firts Council of Contantinople without the "filioque" clause. And is not largely ommitted in most Eastern Rite Churches. Indeed the places were is not yet ommitted, in the US at least, are parishes that simply not replaced their missals as yet.

I can only speculate that the reason that it still is used in the Western (Latin) Rite is because of the enormous amount of Catachesis that would be required to make such a change, the publication of the new "Missal Romanum", now many years over due, and just plain old inertia.

Change in the Catholic Church is slow. As one my theology teachers put it it goes at the speed of the Queen Mary being pushed out to sea by a single swimmer. I do wish we could speed it along and hasten the day of healing the great schism betweein the East and the West, Greek and Latin, Bizantium and Rome.

May God bless us all with unity.