Can some be predestined and others have free will

[Valletta]

As we all know, Calvinists believe that everyone is predestined, while Arminians believe that everyone have free will. I propose a theory when "some" are predestined and "some" have free will. So lets put it this way:

Arminianism: There is one group of people, mankind as a whole, all have free will. Jesus atoned for all the mankind (total atonement).

Calvinism: There are two groups of people: 1) people that are predestined for salvation 2) people that are predestined for damnation. Jesus attoned for group 1 but not group 2 (partial atonement)

My view: There are three groups of people: 1) people that are predestined for salvation 2) people that are predestined for damnation 3) people that have free will. Jesus attoned for groups 1 and 3. So it is also partial attonement but a different kind. It is partial because it didn't include group 2. But it is not irresistable because group 3 is free to either accept it or reject it. At the same time, it is irresistable for group 1. I would further say that groups 1 and 2 can only be limitted to select few (such as biblical figures and politicians) while group 3 can be the majority of the mankind. Examples of people in group 1 would be apostles and prophets. Examples of people in group 2 would be Pharaoh, Judas Escariot, first century Jews, antichrist, some goverment figures. Examples of people in group 3 are ordinary people like you and me. Incidentally, I think Cain was in group 3, because God told Cain "if you do well, will you not be accepted?"

The way my view makes sense in terms of Romans 9 is that this chapter talks about specific people and specific groups of people: namely, the Pharaoh and also the Jewish people (except for the remnant) in church's age. In particular, the question was posed about Jewish people, as in God might not be fair towards them by hardening their hearts, and then that question was answered by saying that God did the same with Pharaoh. So it never said that it applies to everyone who ever goes to hell. It only said it applies to those specific people. And yes, even if it applies to only a minority of people, one can still be bothered by it. So one can still ask questions such as the ones Romans 9 was trying to answer.

One interesting thing about Romans 9 is that it used an analogy of a potter and a clay. Now, when a potter makes stuff, it usually has a purpose: to teach people a lesson. But what is the point of teaching a lesson if nobody has free will? On the other hand, the point becomes apparent if only some people (namely, the characters of that story) don't have free will, while other people (the readers of the story) do. So maybe God used a clay to make Groups 1 and 2, who don't have a free will, in order to teach some lessons to Group 3, who has free will, and who is watching them?

As far as the verse "who is resisted His will?" that verse is still true: Group 3 didn't resist God's will, since God's will was to give that group free will. So God didn't will for group 3 to either go to heaven or hell, hence it didn't resist its will. On the other hand, God "did" will heaven for group 1 and hell for group 2, and those two groups didn't resist His will either.

As far as "who are you to reply against God", that has to do with people that feel bad for group 2. This doesn't change the fact that group 3 still has free will.

We all have free will. While as the Bible says, we are saved through Baptism, when we fall God continues to be there to save us.

1 Peter 3:20-21 who formerly did not obey, when God's patience waited in the days of Noah, during the building of the ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were saved through water. Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you, not as a removal of dirt from the body but as an appeal to God for a clear conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ. RSVCE

Phil 2:12 Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, so now, not only as in my presence but much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling; RSVCE

 

[David Lamb]

That is the mystery. God has an elect, but we, not being God, do not know who those elect are.
God does tell us their characteristics, and Paul warns us to strive to make our calling and election sure.

No, we cannot be saved by works, but the elect of God will work to study God’s word and conform their lives to God’s will, not out of necessity as if they are buying salvation, but out of love for God.
God has given us the analogy of marriage. When we get married, we don’t completely know our spouse, but out of love we strive to known more and conform ourselves to them. The husband loves his wife and gives himself for her. The wife is subject to her husband and strives to please him and get to know him. It they do, there intercourse is on a much deeper and satisfying level.
The lazy spouse reasons that they are already married and doing anything cannot make them more married, so they carry on with their life as if their spouse does not exist. They will give them lip service but they do not really know to whom they are married. This leaves a man grieved for an ungrateful woman, or a woman heartbroken over a man that ignores her. Being Christians, they know that divorce is not an option, but it is a miserable existence. The marriage supper of the lamb will not be miserable


God gives you the choice, you can make your life about sacrificial love deny yourself and take up your cross and follow Jesus, delight in Him, open the door of your heart and let him in. Study His word, know what he likes, learn from saints snd martyrs that have gone before you, or you can listen to the ones that say you can’t be saved by works so don’t do any. They want God to delight in them while they ignore Him and His word, all the while claiming that they are saved by a legal technicality. How are they different from the wife that ignores her husband and rolls her eyes at his will?

Just because we know there is an elect, does not automatically make us one of them, nor do we know who the damned will be. God’s love and mercy extends to any who ask.
The elect are those that love God, and offer His love and mercy to any who would ask. They feel Christ’s agony in the Garden, they know His blood was shed profusely in the scourging, and flowed forth at the mockery of the crowning of thorns, it poured out on the cross and becomes their Eucharistic drink and refreshment of souls.

Do we love God, and want Him to be with us and sacrifice ourselves out of love for Him? Do we love who He loves? The poor souls who don’t yet know Him? Or do we want him to love only us and send all those others to hell where we think they belong?

Who do you think the elect of God really are?
If Christ had not died for everyone, how can we offer the Gospel to anyone?

You're right, we don't know who the elect are. And that answers your final question, "If Christ had not died for everyone, how can we offer the Gospel to anyone?" Spurgeon was once asked why he didn't preach only to the elect. He replied: "If God had put a yellow stripe up and down the backs of the elect, I’d go up and down the streets lifting up shirt tails to find out who had the yellow stripe up and down his back. Then I’d give that person the gospel. But God didn’t do that. He told me to preach the gospel to every creature and that whosoever will may come."

 

[FutureAndAHope]

How could He be satisfied if just one for whom He died were not saved? Yes, whoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved, but who calls upon the name of the Lord? Jesus Himself said:

“"All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out.” (Joh 6:37 NKJV)

“"No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day.” (Joh 6:44 NKJV)

But who is it the Father gives revelation to? Those willing to go God's way:

“If you love Me, keep My commandments. And I will pray the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may abide with you forever...Judas (not Iscariot) said to Him, “Lord, how is it that You will manifest Yourself to us, and not to the world?” Jesus answered and said to him, “If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our home with him. He who does not love Me does not keep My words; and the word which you hear is not Mine but the Father’s who sent Me. (NKJV, John 14:15-24)

There is an order of salvation:

1. God gives His word (and the knowledge of the cross)
2. If we obey/receive the Father will love us and grant "manifestation".
3. If we disobey/reject no manifestation is granted

John 3:19-21 And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. For everyone practicing evil hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed. But he who does the truth comes to the light, that his deeds may be clearly seen, that they have been done in God."

The two groups are divided not by God's decree, but by their desire for sin, or righteousness.

 

[FutureAndAHope]

You're right, we don't know who the elect are. And that answers your final question, "If Christ had not died for everyone, how can we offer the Gospel to anyone?" Spurgeon was once asked why he didn't preach only to the elect. He replied: "If God had put a yellow stripe up and down the backs of the elect, I’d go up and down the streets lifting up shirt tails to find out who had the yellow stripe up and down his back. Then I’d give that person the gospel. But God didn’t do that. He told me to preach the gospel to every creature and that whosoever will may come."

The Early Church had no such concept of the Elect. Man was said to have one nature, a nature of free choice, able to accept or reject God's goodness.

Ignatius [A.D. 30-107]
“ I do not mean to say that there are two different human natures” and “ he is a man of the devil, made such, not by nature, but by his own choice”.

Irenaeus [A.D. 120-202]:
1. This expression [of our Lord], “How often would I have gathered thy children together, and thou wouldest not,” (Mat 23:37) set forth the ancient law of human liberty, because God made man a free [agent] from the beginning, possessing his own power, even as he does his own soul, to obey the behests (ad utendum sententia) of God voluntarily, and not by compulsion of God. For there is no coercion with God, but a good will [towards us] is present with Him continually. And therefore does He give good counsel to all. And in man, as well as in angels, He has placed the power of choice (for angels are rational beings), so that those who had yielded obedience might justly possess what is good, given indeed by God, but preserved by themselves. On the other hand, they who have not obeyed shall, with justice, be not found in possession of the good, and shall receive condign punishment: for God did kindly bestow on them what was good; but they themselves did not diligently keep it, nor deem it something precious, but poured contempt upon His super-eminent goodness. (Translated by Rev. Rambaut W. H. 1867, Against Heresies - Book 4 Ch 37)


Justin Martyr [A.D. 110-165]
... Furthermore, I have proved in what has preceded, that those who were foreknown to be unrighteous, whether men or angels, are not made wicked by God’s fault, but each man by his own fault is what he will appear to be... (Rev. Dods 1867, Justin Martyr - Dialoque with Trypho, Ch 140)

I said briefly by anticipation, that God, wishing men and angels to follow His will, resolved to create them free to do righteousness; possessing reason, that they may know by whom they are created, and through whom they, not existing formerly, do now exist; and with a law that they should be judged by Him, if they do anything contrary to right reason: and of ourselves we, men and angels, shall be convicted of having acted sinfully, unless we repent beforehand. But if the word of God foretells that some angels and men shall be certainly punished, it did so because it foreknew that they would be unchangeably [wicked], but not because God had created them so. So that if they repent, all who wish for it can obtain mercy from God: and the Scripture foretells that they shall be blessed, saying, ‘Blessed is the man to whom the Lord imputeth not sin;’... (Rev. Dods 1867, Justin Martyr - Dialoque with Trypho, Ch 141)

But lest some suppose, from what has been said by us, that we say that whatever happens, happens by a fatal necessity, because it is foretold as known beforehand, this too we explain. We have learned from the prophets, and we hold it to be true, that punishments, and chastisements, and good rewards, are rendered according to the merit of each man’s actions. Since if it be not so, but all things happen by fate, neither is anything at all in our own power. For if it be fated that this man, e.g., be good, and this other evil, neither is the former meritorious nor the latter to be blamed. And again, unless the human race have the power of avoiding evil and choosing good by free choice, they are not accountable for their actions, of whatever kind they be. But that it is by free choice they both walk uprightly and stumble, we thus demonstrate. We see the same man making a transition to opposite things. Now, if it had been fated that he were to be either good or bad, he could never have been capable of both the opposites, nor of so many transitions. But not even would some be good and others bad, since we thus make fate the cause of evil, and exhibit her as acting in opposition to herself; or that which has been already stated would seem to be true, that neither virtue nor vice is anything, but that things are only reckoned good or evil by opinion; which, as the true word shows, is the greatest impiety and wickedness. But this we assert is inevitable fate, that they who choose the good have worthy rewards, and they who choose the opposite have their merited awards. For not like other things, as trees and quadrupeds, which cannot act by choice, did God make man: for neither would he be worthy of reward or praise did he not of himself choose the good, but were created for this end; nor, if he were evil, would he be worthy of punishment, not being evil of himself, but being able to be nothing else than what he was made (Rev. Dods 1867, Justin Martyr - First Apology - Ch 43)

​

 

[David Lamb]

But who is it the Father gives revelation to? Those willing to go God's way:

“If you love Me, keep My commandments. And I will pray the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may abide with you forever...Judas (not Iscariot) said to Him, “Lord, how is it that You will manifest Yourself to us, and not to the world?” Jesus answered and said to him, “If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our home with him. He who does not love Me does not keep My words; and the word which you hear is not Mine but the Father’s who sent Me. (NKJV, John 14:15-24)

There is an order of salvation:

1. God gives His word (and the knowledge of the cross)
2. If we obey/receive the Father will love us and grant "manifestation".
3. If we disobey/reject no manifestation is granted

John 3:19-21 And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. For everyone practicing evil hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed. But he who does the truth comes to the light, that his deeds may be clearly seen, that they have been done in God."

The two groups are divided not by God's decree, but by their desire for sin, or righteousness.

To whom is the revelation made, you ask. Jesus said:

“All things have been delivered to Me by My Father, and no one knows who the Son is except the Father, and who the Father is except the Son, and [the one] to whom the Son wills to reveal [Him]."” (Lu 10:22 NKJV)

 

[David Lamb]

The Early Church had no such concept of the Elect. Man was said to have one nature, a nature of free choice, able to accept or reject God's goodness.

Ignatius [A.D. 30-107]
“ I do not mean to say that there are two different human natures” and “ he is a man of the devil, made such, not by nature, but by his own choice”.

Irenaeus [A.D. 120-202]:
1. This expression [of our Lord], “How often would I have gathered thy children together, and thou wouldest not,” (Mat 23:37) set forth the ancient law of human liberty, because God made man a free [agent] from the beginning, possessing his own power, even as he does his own soul, to obey the behests (ad utendum sententia) of God voluntarily, and not by compulsion of God. For there is no coercion with God, but a good will [towards us] is present with Him continually. And therefore does He give good counsel to all. And in man, as well as in angels, He has placed the power of choice (for angels are rational beings), so that those who had yielded obedience might justly possess what is good, given indeed by God, but preserved by themselves. On the other hand, they who have not obeyed shall, with justice, be not found in possession of the good, and shall receive condign punishment: for God did kindly bestow on them what was good; but they themselves did not diligently keep it, nor deem it something precious, but poured contempt upon His super-eminent goodness. (Translated by Rev. Rambaut W. H. 1867, Against Heresies - Book 4 Ch 37)


Justin Martyr [A.D. 110-165]
... Furthermore, I have proved in what has preceded, that those who were foreknown to be unrighteous, whether men or angels, are not made wicked by God’s fault, but each man by his own fault is what he will appear to be... (Rev. Dods 1867, Justin Martyr - Dialoque with Trypho, Ch 140)

I said briefly by anticipation, that God, wishing men and angels to follow His will, resolved to create them free to do righteousness; possessing reason, that they may know by whom they are created, and through whom they, not existing formerly, do now exist; and with a law that they should be judged by Him, if they do anything contrary to right reason: and of ourselves we, men and angels, shall be convicted of having acted sinfully, unless we repent beforehand. But if the word of God foretells that some angels and men shall be certainly punished, it did so because it foreknew that they would be unchangeably [wicked], but not because God had created them so. So that if they repent, all who wish for it can obtain mercy from God: and the Scripture foretells that they shall be blessed, saying, ‘Blessed is the man to whom the Lord imputeth not sin;’... (Rev. Dods 1867, Justin Martyr - Dialoque with Trypho, Ch 141)

But lest some suppose, from what has been said by us, that we say that whatever happens, happens by a fatal necessity, because it is foretold as known beforehand, this too we explain. We have learned from the prophets, and we hold it to be true, that punishments, and chastisements, and good rewards, are rendered according to the merit of each man’s actions. Since if it be not so, but all things happen by fate, neither is anything at all in our own power. For if it be fated that this man, e.g., be good, and this other evil, neither is the former meritorious nor the latter to be blamed. And again, unless the human race have the power of avoiding evil and choosing good by free choice, they are not accountable for their actions, of whatever kind they be. But that it is by free choice they both walk uprightly and stumble, we thus demonstrate. We see the same man making a transition to opposite things. Now, if it had been fated that he were to be either good or bad, he could never have been capable of both the opposites, nor of so many transitions. But not even would some be good and others bad, since we thus make fate the cause of evil, and exhibit her as acting in opposition to herself; or that which has been already stated would seem to be true, that neither virtue nor vice is anything, but that things are only reckoned good or evil by opinion; which, as the true word shows, is the greatest impiety and wickedness. But this we assert is inevitable fate, that they who choose the good have worthy rewards, and they who choose the opposite have their merited awards. For not like other things, as trees and quadrupeds, which cannot act by choice, did God make man: for neither would he be worthy of reward or praise did he not of himself choose the good, but were created for this end; nor, if he were evil, would he be worthy of punishment, not being evil of himself, but being able to be nothing else than what he was made (Rev. Dods 1867, Justin Martyr - First Apology - Ch 43)

Thank you for your reply. You say that the early church had no such concept of election. Certainly the NT church had the concept of election. Over and over, the apostles taught it. For example:

“Therefore, as [the] elect of God, holy and beloved, put on tender mercies, kindness, humility, meekness, longsuffering;” (Col 3:12 NKJV)

“1 ¶ Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, To the pilgrims of the Dispersion in Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, 2 elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, in sanctification of the Spirit, for obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace to you and peace be multiplied.” (1Pe 1:1-2 NKJV)

“3 ¶ Blessed [be] the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly [places] in Christ, 4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, 5 having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will, 6 to the praise of the glory of His grace, by which He has made us accepted in the Beloved.” (Eph 1:3-6 NKJV)

 

[FutureAndAHope]

To whom is the revelation made, you ask. Jesus said:

“All things have been delivered to Me by My Father, and no one knows who the Son is except the Father, and who the Father is except the Son, and [the one] to whom the Son wills to reveal [Him]."” (Lu 10:22 NKJV)

You are using a circular argument. The fact is Jesus told us to whom revelation belongs to, it is not just a group chosen by God but rather those who choose to obey God.

Joh 14:21-24 He who has My commandments and keeps them, it is he who loves Me. And he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and manifest Myself to him." Judas (not Iscariot) said to Him, "Lord, how is it that You will manifest Yourself to us, and not to the world?" Jesus answered and said to him, "If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our home with him. He who does not love Me does not keep My words; and the word which you hear is not Mine but the Father's who sent Me.

Notice the love of the Father, His manifestation, comes only after our steps toward God.

 

[FutureAndAHope]

Thank you for your reply. You say that the early church had no such concept of election. Certainly the NT church had the concept of election. Over and over, the apostles taught it. For example:

“Therefore, as [the] elect of God, holy and beloved, put on tender mercies, kindness, humility, meekness, longsuffering;” (Col 3:12 NKJV)

“1 ¶ Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, To the pilgrims of the Dispersion in Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, 2 elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, in sanctification of the Spirit, for obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace to you and peace be multiplied.” (1Pe 1:1-2 NKJV)

“3 ¶ Blessed [be] the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly [places] in Christ, 4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, 5 having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will, 6 to the praise of the glory of His grace, by which He has made us accepted in the Beloved.” (Eph 1:3-6 NKJV)

Sure the term "Elect" is used in scripture, but not the meaning you are assigning to it. The Early Church used the term, but their writing shows they believed all men have free will, and that there are not two natures. These are the Earliest Church Fathers, those who came directly after the apostles and had not been tainted by time.

The Bible is clear in many places that God desires all to be saved. Below I quote some of the scriptures that show that all means both Jew and Gentile, all people of the world.

For to this end we both labor and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of those who believe. (NKJV, 1 Timothy 4:10)​

And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world. (NKJV, 1John 2:2)​

The fact is Jesus’s ransom was given for all men, for there is not one that God does not love. For God is love.

For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus, who gave Himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time, (NKJV, 1Timothy 2:3-6)​

To further strengthen the case for free will and show that we were not chosen before creation for salvation or damnation in the Calvinistic sense. I present the following scripture from Matthew:

“O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing!” (NKJV, Matthew 23:37)​

It shows that God was willing to save everyone (1 Timothy 4:10, 1 John 2:2, 1 Timothy 2:3-6), even the sinner. But it was the sinner who was unwilling to be saved, not God who was unwilling to save them. This shows that God did not choose people for salvation before creation. Because if He did it would mean He was unwilling to extend salvation to all, and would go against His desire as expressed in Matthew 23:37.

 

[David Lamb]

You are using a circular argument. The fact is Jesus told us to whom revelation belongs to, it is not just a group chosen by God but rather those who choose to obey God.

Joh 14:21-24 He who has My commandments and keeps them, it is he who loves Me. And he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and manifest Myself to him." Judas (not Iscariot) said to Him, "Lord, how is it that You will manifest Yourself to us, and not to the world?" Jesus answered and said to him, "If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our home with him. He who does not love Me does not keep My words; and the word which you hear is not Mine but the Father's who sent Me.

Notice the love of the Father, His manifestation, comes only after our steps toward God.

But how does somebody spiritually dead in trespasses and sins, as Ephesians 2 says, make steps towards God?

 

[zoidar]

But how does somebody spiritually dead in trespasses and sins, as Ephesians 2 says, make steps towards God?

To be dead in trespasses and sins means being under judgement, one will die in sins unless one repents. It has nothing to do whether you can respond to the gospel or not. God bless!

 

[FutureAndAHope]

But how does somebody spiritually dead in trespasses and sins, as Ephesians 2 says, make steps towards God?

That is purely a Calvinistic misdemeanor. Man can make strides toward God. God opens their eyes, is God so powerless that He can not do so?

Job 36:10-12 He also opens their ear to instruction, And commands that they turn from iniquity. If they obey and serve Him, They shall spend their days in prosperity, And their years in pleasures. But if they do not obey, They shall perish by the sword, And they shall die without knowledge. ​

There is a choice each of us makes, when exposed to God's word. Blindness is not a state of man, but what man chooses for himself.

The following scripture in Romans describes how blindness occurs in the sinner or vessel of wrath.

because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened Professing to be wise, they became fools, ... And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a debased mind, to do those things which are not fitting; (NKJV, Romans 1:21-28)​

The scripture clearly shows God does not “just blind people”, but their persistent rejection of God leads to spiritual blindness.

Irenaeus [A.D. 120-202] in Against Heresies talks of blindness coming only from a person’s self-rejection of the word of God.

4. ... but for the despisers and mockers who avoid and turn themselves away from this light, and who do, as it were, blind themselves, He has prepared darkness suitable to persons who oppose the light, and He has inflicted an appropriate punishment upon those who try to avoid being subject to Him. Submission to God is eternal rest, so that they who shun the light have a place worthy of their flight; and those who fly from eternal rest, have a habitation in accordance with their fleeing. Now, since all good things are with God, they who by their own determination fly from God, do defraud themselves of all good things; and having been [thus] defrauded of all good things with respect to God, they shall consequently fall under the just judgment of God. (Rev. Rambaut W. H. 1867, Against Heresies - Book 4 Ch 39 -End)​

The idea that we are so depraved that we can not even have a will capable of following God, is shown to be incorrect by Paul’s discourse in Romans 7. This shows us although a person struggles to keep the Law, they can still delight in God’s law. What this reveals is that although a person may struggle with sin, inwardly they can delight in God’s law and desire to follow it. This love of the Law even in the person “sold under sin” enables them to respond to the gospel. Because God responds to our will, not our righteousness. See the quote from Romans 7:

For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am carnal, sold under sin. For what I am doing, I do not understand. For what I will to do, that I do not practice; but what I hate, that I do. If, then, I do what I will not to do, I agree with the law that it is good. But now, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me. For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh) nothing good dwells; for to will is present with me, but how to perform what is good I do not find. For the good that I will to do, I do not do; but the evil I will not to do, that I practice. Now if I do what I will not to do, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me. I find then a law, that evil is present with me, the one who wills to do good. For I delight in the law of God according to the inward man. (NKJV 7:14-22)​

 

[David Lamb]

To be dead in trespasses and sins means being under judgement, one will die in sins unless one repents. It has nothing to do whether you can respond to the gospel or not. God bless!

Well, in Ephesians 2 we are told:

“4 ¶ But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5 even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved),” (Eph 2:4-5 NKJV)

Taken together with what Paul wrote about the "natural man", makes your meaning much less likely, in my view:

“But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know [them], because they are spiritually discerned.” (1Co 2:14 NKJV)

By nature, we have no spiritual life.

 

[boughtwithaprice]

But how does somebody spiritually dead in trespasses and sins, as Ephesians 2 says, make steps towards God?

That was before the New Covenant. The imaginations of men was evil only. Even Israel could not keep the Old Covenant because their weak flesh would attract them to the things of this world away from God. Most would wind up like Saul and try to sacrifice to God things that cost them nothing. They would make no steps toward God, but want God to make steps toward them.
In the New Covenant, God does do it all. I will take away your heart of stone and give you a heart of flesh to cause you to walk in my ways (Ezekiel paraphrase)
Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God. The fact that Christ died for all awakens the spirit and convicts the heart when the Gospel is preached. God gives us a gift, but we also have great responsibility.

If we name the name of Christ we should be careful to keep His commandments. Gospel preaching and godly living will convict the world.
Jesus says if we want to follow Him, we must give up everything, completely deny ourselves.
That is it done in most that call themselves Christian today. Now it’s oh just take Jesus as your savior and come to Church, clap your hands, pay your tithe and everyone tells you that you’re saved. Really? Everyone wants to be told
How good they are, but very few want to actually be good.

The New Covenant is supppsed to be the fulfillment of the Old. The saddest thing that I heard that a Jewish man says he cannot accept Christianity because as a Jew he is taught to keep all these rules and to discipline his life, but the Christian’s that he knows tell him to just name Jesus and he is freed from all that. What we hear today is not the apostolic teaching, not even close.

The apostolic teaching was to give up everything and take up the cross. Mortify the deeds of our flesh and rest in the joy of salvation in Jesus. An excerpt of Iraneus demonstration of the Apostolic teaching. This is 96 but the whole thing is worth reading

96. Wherefore also we need not the Law as a tutor. Behold, with the Father we speak, and in His presence we stand, being children in malice, and grown strong in all righteousness and soberness.266 For no longer shall the Law say, Do not commit adultery, to him who has no desire at all for another's wife; and Thou shalt not kill, to him who has put away from himself all anger and enmity; (and) Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour s field or ox or ass,267 to those who have no care at all for earthly things, but store up the heavenly fruits: nor An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth,268 to him who counts no man his enemy, but all men his neighbours, and therefore cannot stretch out his hand at all for vengeance. It will not require tithes of him who consecrates all his possessions to God, leaving father and mother and all his kindred, and following the Word of God. And there will be no command to remain idle for one day of rest, to him who perpetually keeps sabbath,269 that is to |148 say, who in the temple of God, which is man's body, does service to God, and in every hour works righteousness. For I desire mercy, He saith, and not sacrifice; and the knowledge of God more than burnt offerings. But the wicked that sacrificeth to me a calf is as if he should kill a dog; and that offereth fine flour, as though (he offered] swine's blood. But whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved. And there is none other name of the Lord given under heaven whereby men are saved,270 save that of God, which is Jesus Christ the Son of God, to which also the demons are subject and evil spirits and all apostate energies, by the invocation of the name of Jesus Christ, crucified under Pontius Pilate.271


It is by the power of the Blood of Christ that the Gospel is effective. If we preach the Gospel but do not live it, then the word of God is blasphemed among the gentiles, which is what we see happening today

 

[zoidar]

Well, in Ephesians 2 we are told:

“4 ¶ But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5 even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved),” (Eph 2:4-5 NKJV)

Taken together with what Paul wrote about the "natural man", makes your meaning much less likely, in my view:

“But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know [them], because they are spiritually discerned.” (1Co 2:14 NKJV)

By nature, we have no spiritual life.

Even if you are correct about 1 Cor 2:14 I suggest it's about something else in Eph 2:4-5. I think the passage in Eph is about salvation being a gift of grace, not how this gift is bestowed us.

 

[David Lamb]

That was before the New Covenant. The imaginations of men was evil only. Even Israel could not keep the Old Covenant because their weak flesh would attract them to the things of this world away from God. Most would wind up like Saul and try to sacrifice to God things that cost them nothing. They would make no steps toward God, but want God to make steps toward them.
In the New Covenant, God does do it all. I will take away your heart of stone and give you a heart of flesh to cause you to walk in my ways (Ezekiel paraphrase)
Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God. The fact that Christ died for all awakens the spirit and convicts the heart when the Gospel is preached. God gives us a gift, but we also have great responsibility.

If we name the name of Christ we should be careful to keep His commandments. Gospel preaching and godly living will convict the world.
Jesus says if we want to follow Him, we must give up everything, completely deny ourselves.
That is it done in most that call themselves Christian today. Now it’s oh just take Jesus as your savior and come to Church, clap your hands, pay your tithe and everyone tells you that you’re saved. Really? Everyone wants to be told
How good they are, but very few want to actually be good.

The New Covenant is supppsed to be the fulfillment of the Old. The saddest thing that I heard that a Jewish man says he cannot accept Christianity because as a Jew he is taught to keep all these rules and to discipline his life, but the Christian’s that he knows tell him to just name Jesus and he is freed from all that. What we hear today is not the apostolic teaching, not even close.

The apostolic teaching was to give up everything and take up the cross. Mortify the deeds of our flesh and rest in the joy of salvation in Jesus. An excerpt of Iraneus demonstration of the Apostolic teaching. This is 96 but the whole thing is worth reading

96. Wherefore also we need not the Law as a tutor. Behold, with the Father we speak, and in His presence we stand, being children in malice, and grown strong in all righteousness and soberness.266 For no longer shall the Law say, Do not commit adultery, to him who has no desire at all for another's wife; and Thou shalt not kill, to him who has put away from himself all anger and enmity; (and) Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour s field or ox or ass,267 to those who have no care at all for earthly things, but store up the heavenly fruits: nor An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth,268 to him who counts no man his enemy, but all men his neighbours, and therefore cannot stretch out his hand at all for vengeance. It will not require tithes of him who consecrates all his possessions to God, leaving father and mother and all his kindred, and following the Word of God. And there will be no command to remain idle for one day of rest, to him who perpetually keeps sabbath,269 that is to |148 say, who in the temple of God, which is man's body, does service to God, and in every hour works righteousness. For I desire mercy, He saith, and not sacrifice; and the knowledge of God more than burnt offerings. But the wicked that sacrificeth to me a calf is as if he should kill a dog; and that offereth fine flour, as though (he offered] swine's blood. But whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved. And there is none other name of the Lord given under heaven whereby men are saved,270 save that of God, which is Jesus Christ the Son of God, to which also the demons are subject and evil spirits and all apostate energies, by the invocation of the name of Jesus Christ, crucified under Pontius Pilate.271


It is by the power of the Blood of Christ that the Gospel is effective. If we preach the Gospel but do not live it, then the word of God is blasphemed among the gentiles, which is what we see happening today

Paul's letter to the Christians at Ephesus before the New Covenant? Surely not! And, as we read in 1 Corinthians, before a person becomes a Christian the things of God are foolishness to him:

“But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know [them], because they are spiritually discerned.” (1Co 2:14 NKJV)

Why would he take steps in something he regards as foolishness?

I do agree with your final sentence. It is so important that a Christian's life should match his profession of faith.

 

[boughtwithaprice]

Paul's letter to the Christians at Ephesus before the New Covenant? Surely not! And, as we read in 1 Corinthians, before a person becomes a Christian the things of God are foolishness to him:

“But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know [them], because they are spiritually discerned.” (1Co 2:14 NKJV)

Why would he take steps in something he regards as foolishness?

I do agree with your final sentence. It is so important that a Christian's life should match his profession of faith.

What you say is correct. The ways of God are foolishness to men which is why the first three of the seven heavenly virtues are called theological virtues, because they come from God alone. These three are Faith, Hope, and Charity.
The natural man can know three things about God through the light of reason. This has been done by philosophers of old that reasoned by first principles. First principles have been abandoned by modern science which is why we see the chaos and atheism we have today.

The three things about God that can be reached by the light of reason are, God exists, God is intelligent, I am not God. We see this in all the cultures that have developed in history. This reasoning results in paganism and idolatry but does not lead to saving faith. Modern thought sees the futility of idolatry and turns to atheism and insists the natural state of man is atheistic.

Even secular scientists are now seeing that atheistic materialism is an absurd position. They are beginning to recognize that there is an intelligence in the Universe, although the atheists currently hold the political power and use ridicule and coercion to silence objections. We know the fool says in his heart there is no God. Human beings are incapable of worshipping the true God by their own reason.

We read in Ezekiel 36, which is before the New Covenant

26 And I will give you a new heart, and put a new spirit within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and will give you a heart of flesh. 27 And I will put my spirit in the midst of you: and I will cause you to walk in my commandments, and to keep my judgments, and do them. 28 And you shall dwell in the land which I gave to your fathers, and you shall be my people, and I will be your God. 29 And I will save you from all your uncleannesses: and I will call for corn, and will multiply it, and will lay no famine upon you. 30 And I will multiply the fruit of the tree, and the increase of the field, that you bear no more the reproach of famine among the nations.

31 And you shall remember your wicked ways, and your doings that were not good: and your iniquities, and your wicked deeds shall displease you.


Sounds like Christian preaching to me, or at least it should be