Can a priest absolve a murderer?

[Sword of the Lord]

Like for example, someone serving a life sentence for brutally murdering another person in cold blood? In this example the murderer has sincerely repented.

 

[Sword of the Lord]

I'm not planning to murder and I'm not asking for a friend. Just to be clear for the FBI, CIA, and NSA.

 

[Rhamiel]

yes, a priest can absolve a murder

 

[Sword of the Lord]

yes, a priest can absolve a murder

OK, so why can't he absolve someone who has an abortion without jumping through hoops since they are both murder?

 

[Sword of the Lord]

Or what if a woman strangles her baby, throws the baby in a bag and in the trash, goes to prison, and sincerely repents. She can be forgiven, but a woman who has an abortion is somehow treated differently since the baby was in the womb. Ironically, they both end up in the trashcan.

 

[football5680]

OK, so why can't he absolve someone who has an abortion without jumping through hoops since they are both murder?

Somebody who takes part in an abortion is automatically excommunicated and a Priest does not have the authority to overturn this ruling. The person must approach the Bishop to resolve this and he can give a Priest the authority to forgive them. Somebody who is excommunicated does not have the right to absolution so this must be overturned first.

 

[Sword of the Lord]

Somebody who takes part in an abortion is automatically excommunicated and a Priest does not have the authority to overturn this ruling. The person must approach the Bishop to resolve this and he can give a Priest the authority to forgive them. Somebody who is excommunicated does not have the right to absolution so this must be overturned first.

Why is the murder of a baby as given in the example above treated so differently if both are, in fact, murder?

Note that I believe abortion is murder and only evil people can defend it, but I don't understand how this murder is treated so differently.

 

[football5680]

Why is the murder of a baby as given in the example above treated so differently if both are, in fact, murder?

Note that I believe abortion is murder and only evil people can defend it, but I don't understand how this murder is treated so differently.

Abortion is always premeditated and if a Catholic knows the Churches stance and knows the penalty associated with participating then the sentence is just. There are certain circumstances that lessen the culpability and would not lead to an automatic excommunication although it is still a grave sin.

EWTN has a good piece that explains this.
http://www.ewtn.com/expert/answers/abortio2.htm

 

[Sword of the Lord]

Abortion is always premeditated and if a Catholic knows the Churches stance and knows the penalty associated with participating then the sentence is just. There are certain circumstances that lessen the culpability and would not lead to an automatic excommunication although it is still a grave sin.

EWTN has a good piece that explains this.
http://www.ewtn.com/expert/answers/abortio2.htm

A lot of murders are premeditated. This still doesn't explain why this is so different than any other murder. Someone could choose to murder their baby is the worst possible way after weeks of planning, callously discard the body, and they're in better shape within the RCC than some misguided woman who has an abortion after being raped or left by the father with no income. Both are murder; this doesn't compute.

 

[n2thelight]

Like for example, someone serving a life sentence for brutally murdering another person in cold blood? In this example the murderer has sincerely repented.

A Priest can't absolve anything,much less a murderer.....Also a murderer can't find forgiveness in the flesh

I John 3:15
"Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiden in him."


I John 3:16

"Hereby perceive we the love of God, because He laid down His life for us: and we ought to lay down our lives for the brethren."

A murderer cannot have salvation in his soul, because he is not suppose to be living. He is to be executed and sent to the Father for judgment. This is done so others will see it, and these things will cease to exist among you: Deuteronomy 19:1-13. However, to kill is honorable when it protects family and nation. But to murder, to lie in wait and premeditate is to commit a criminal homicide. This should carry the death sentence, and is unforgivable while you are in the flesh body.

 

[Sword of the Lord]

A Priest can't absolve anything,much less a murderer.....Also a murderer can't find forgiveness in the flesh

I John 3:15
"Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiden in him."


I John 3:16

"Hereby perceive we the love of God, because He laid down His life for us: and we ought to lay down our lives for the brethren."

A murderer cannot have salvation in his soul, because he is not suppose to be living. He is to be executed and sent to the Father for judgment. This is done so others will see it, and these things will cease to exist among you: Deuteronomy 19:1-13. However, to kill is honorable when it protects family and nation. But to murder, to lie in wait and premeditate is to commit a criminal homicide. This should carry the death sentence, and is unforgivable while you are in the flesh body.

You're in the wrong forum. Did you happen to see this on the recent activity list? In the RCC, a priest can and does absolve sins, and the Catholics of OBOB firmly believe this. We cannot say otherwise in this particular forum.

 

[Davidnic]

Essentially your question boils down to why are some sins automatically excommunication (Latae sententiae) and some not. Now, in the US for decades a priest can forgive an abortion. The Bishops made this possible in many places after abortion was legalized. First let's state that there are mitigating circumstances of culpability that could make someone not subject to the penalty. But that is another discussion. Also in danger of death any priest can absolve from these even without permission.

Also let's be clear, a priest can absolve them. But the penitent then must seek the Bishop or an approved confessor within a month to meet and make sure the behavior will not repeat. Referral can be made by the priest.

But really we need to look at why some things are automatic excommunication. There are Nine. And it is a condition that to be subject to the penalty you must know it exists. You must know the act will incur the penalty and do it anyway.

Abortion (Including all who assist with it in Formal Cooperation.)
Apostasy
Heresy
Schism
Violating the sacred species (desecration of the Eucharist)
Physically attacking the pope
Sacramentally absolving an accomplice in a sexual sin
Consecrating a bishop without authorization
Directly violating the seal of confession

Now for Apostasy, Heresy, attacking the Pope and Schism we see sins against the visible Church. So an automatic penalty and extra steps to reconcile are necessary to be sure the issues are worked out. The same for consecrating a Bishop without permission. For the other we see sins directly against the Sacrament of Confession by a priest. This is also a violation of vows and the extra steps are needed to be sure there will be no repeat and issues that caused it are gone. Then we have desecration of the Eucharist. This shows such a turn from what the Church is that an automatic penalty is needed to make sure the underlying problems are solved.

So that leaves abortion. So what makes it a case that is different from other sins like murder and the variations on such...like infanticide. The basic answer is that the Church decided that in the case of the murder of the most innocent at the most vulnerable point this would be the process. She could have decided that it would happen in all cases of murder or illegitimate killing, but chose the point at the height of vulnerability and innocence. And since one must know that the penalty exists for it to be incurred (it is always a sin but I am speaking of the canonical penalty) if someone does it anyway they are basically turning to the Church and saying that they do not care about the authority.

All mortal sins divide us from God. But some of them also are direct oppositions to the Visible Church and our union with Her. The priest also has the ability, if he deems that it is too burdensome for the penitent to remain in sin until the Bishop absolves...he can absolve the sin. That is up to the prudential judgement of the confessor. He can then inform the Bishop but the seal of confession still applies.

Also I will say that it is more common that the canonical conditions make it much harder to the mother to receive the penalty due to issues like lack or knowledge, compulsion, mental state..ect. More often than not it is the doctors and providers who are incurring it.

Remember this is a function of canon law and can change. There used to be more automatic ones before the 1983 code. And the 1990 code for Eastern Catholic Churches has eliminated them all.

But the best answer as to why abortion and not similar sins is that it used to be rare and illegal and was not just a sin but an organized underground activity and this process helped to end people's involvement in it.

I think as we get other codes of canon law in the future there will be less and less automatic penalties except those that are a direct break with the Visible Church.

 

[Rhamiel]

excommunications are also used not only as a form of punishment
but rather to show others that a sin is a very serious matter
many people point out that abortion is legal, that it is not that big of a deal

this is to show that it is a big deal

most people know that murder is a big deal
so no real need to add an excommunication to it

 

[sahjimira]

True repentence the Lord forgives...however I am inclined one needs to get saved as well

 

[stray bullet]

A lot of murders are premeditated. This still doesn't explain why this is so different than any other murder. Someone could choose to murder their baby is the worst possible way after weeks of planning, callously discard the body, and they're in better shape within the RCC than some misguided woman who has an abortion after being raped or left by the father with no income. Both are murder; this doesn't compute.

Because murder is gray and abortion is black and white. Abortion is always wrong. Abortion is an act that is always unjustified. Murder is a word to describe the act of killing as unjustified.

 

[eastcoast_bsc]

Like for example, someone serving a life sentence for brutally murdering another person in cold blood? In this example the murderer has sincerely repented.

Of course. If the confessor is truly repentant than they are forgiven.

There is a person from Boston John Martorano who was a hit-man for both the Irish Mob and in Town (Italian mob) here in Boston. He ran with the Winter Hill crew, which became notorious because of Whitey Bulger. The story is in the new movie "Black Mass"

But Martorano confessed to 20 hits that he committed and in an interview he said the 20 were the ones he TOLD the Feds about. Meaning that there were more.

But in an interview with 60 minutes, he told how he sat and confessed with a Priest for a long period. The Priest eventually told him to do penance and not to kill anyone else. If his confession was real, than he is forgiven.
here is a picture oh John.

 

[eastcoast_bsc]

A lot of murders are premeditated. This still doesn't explain why this is so different than any other murder. Someone could choose to murder their baby is the worst possible way after weeks of planning, callously discard the body, and they're in better shape within the RCC than some misguided woman who has an abortion after being raped or left by the father with no income. Both are murder; this doesn't compute.

Michael you are correct. The church's position on this is convoluted at best.

 

[eastcoast_bsc]

Essentially your question boils down to why are some sins automatically excommunication (Latae sententiae) and some not. Now, in the US for decades a priest can forgive an abortion. The Bishops made this possible in many places after abortion was legalized. First let's state that there are mitigating circumstances of culpability that could make someone not subject to the penalty. But that is another discussion. Also in danger of death any priest can absolve from these even without permission.

Also let's be clear, a priest can absolve them. But the penitent then must seek the Bishop or an approved confessor within a month to meet and make sure the behavior will not repeat. Referral can be made by the priest.

But really we need to look at why some things are automatic excommunication. There are Nine. And it is a condition that to be subject to the penalty you must know it exists. You must know the act will incur the penalty and do it anyway.

Abortion (Including all who assist with it in Formal Cooperation.)
Apostasy
Heresy
Schism
Violating the sacred species (desecration of the Eucharist)
Physically attacking the pope
Sacramentally absolving an accomplice in a sexual sin
Consecrating a bishop without authorization
Directly violating the seal of confession

Now for Apostasy, Heresy, attacking the Pope and Schism we see sins against the visible Church. So an automatic penalty and extra steps to reconcile are necessary to be sure the issues are worked out. The same for consecrating a Bishop without permission. For the other we see sins directly against the Sacrament of Confession by a priest. This is also a violation of vows and the extra steps are needed to be sure there will be no repeat and issues that caused it are gone. Then we have desecration of the Eucharist. This shows such a turn from what the Church is that an automatic penalty is needed to make sure the underlying problems are solved.

So that leaves abortion. So what makes it a case that is different from other sins like murder and the variations on such...like infanticide. The basic answer is that the Church decided that in the case of the murder of the most innocent at the most vulnerable point this would be the process. She could have decided that it would happen in all cases of murder or illegitimate killing, but chose the point at the height of vulnerability and innocence. And since one must know that the penalty exists for it to be incurred (it is always a sin but I am speaking of the canonical penalty) if someone does it anyway they are basically turning to the Church and saying that they do not care about the authority.

All mortal sins divide us from God. But some of them also are direct oppositions to the Visible Church and our union with Her. The priest also has the ability, if he deems that it is too burdensome for the penitent to remain in sin until the Bishop absolves...he can absolve the sin. That is up to the prudential judgement of the confessor. He can then inform the Bishop but the seal of confession still applies.

Also I will say that it is more common that the canonical conditions make it much harder to the mother to receive the penalty due to issues like lack or knowledge, compulsion, mental state..ect. More often than not it is the doctors and providers who are incurring it.

Remember this is a function of canon law and can change. There used to be more automatic ones before the 1983 code. And the 1990 code for Eastern Catholic Churches has eliminated them all.

But the best answer as to why abortion and not similar sins is that it used to be rare and illegal and was not just a sin but an organized underground activity and this process helped to end people's involvement in it.

I think as we get other codes of canon law in the future there will be less and less automatic penalties except those that are a direct break with the Visible Church.

David, this was recently addressed and I believe that it was said, that most Cardinals and Bishops leave it up to the Priest hearing confession to absolve the sinner.

 

[Davidnic]

David, this was recently addressed and I believe that it was said, that most Cardinals and Bishops leave it up to the Priest hearing confession to absolve the sinner.

Yep that's been practice in America and some other places for some time. I hope after the year of mercy it becomes globally common.

 

[Rhamiel]

Michael you are correct. The church's position on this is convoluted at best.

really? convoluted?

we live in a culture that still sees murder as a bad thing
and a culture that sees abortion as a "right"
so making stronger sanctions on abortion make sense

everyone already knows that murder is wrong