Can a Chrsitian become deflied? Can a Christian fail of God's Grace?

[thereselittleflower]

If yes, why and what does this mean?

If no, why not?



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[Uphill Battle]

If you mean, can they fall from the Grace of God, no, they cannot.

 

[Macrina]

Can a Christian become deflied? Absolutely! If we pray to God to remove the flies, He is more than able to do so... nothing is impossible for the Lord!

 

[Macrina]

But seriously, when you say "fail of God's grace," what do you mean specifically?

 

[thereselittleflower]

If you mean, can they fall from the Grace of God, no, they cannot.

Then why do the scriptures say and warn that we can?

Heb 12:15 Looking diligently lest any man fail of the grace of God; lest any root of bitterness springing up trouble you, and thereby many be defiled;​

Let's look at "fail of"

The word "fail" here in Greek is:

G5302
ὑστερέω
hustereō
Thayer Definition:

1) behind

1a) to come late or too tardily

1a1) to be left behind in the race and so fail to reach the goal, to fall short of the end
1a2) metaphorically fail to become a partaker, fall back from​

1b) to be inferior in power, influence and rank

1b1) of the person: to be inferior to​

1c) to fail, be wanting
1d) to be in want of, lack​

2) to suffer want, to be devoid of, to lack (be inferior) in excellence, worth​

Part of Speech: verb
A Related Word by Thayer’s/Strong’s Number: from G5306
Citing in TDNT: 8:592, 1240
​

Now let's look at the word "of" in the Greek:

G575
ἀπό
apo
Thayer Definition:

1) of separation

1a) of local separation, after verbs of motion from a place, i.e. of departing, of fleeing, ...
1b) of separation of a part from the whole

1b1) where of a whole some part is taken​

1c) of any kind of separation of one thing from another by which the union or fellowship of the two is destroyed
1d) of a state of separation, that is of distance

1d1) physical, of distance of place
1d2) temporal, of distance of time​

2) of origin

2a) of the place whence anything is, comes, befalls, is taken
2b) of origin of a cause​

Part of Speech: preposition
A Related Word by Thayer’s/Strong’s Number: a primary particle
​

Pretty strong words . . . .

Now, how can it be that one cannot fail of God's Grace, fall from God's Grace if Paul is warning us that we can and not to do so?


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[thereselittleflower]

And let's look at the word "defiled"

G3392
μιαίνω
miainō
Thayer Definition:

1) to dye with another colour, to stain
2) to defile, pollute, sully, contaminate, soil
2a) to defile with sins​

Part of Speech: verb
A Related Word by Thayer’s/Strong’s Number: perhaps a primary verb
Citing in TDNT: 4:644, 593
​

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[Uphill Battle]

1a) to come late or too tardily

seems to answer the question, doesn't it?

come to late to the Grace of God, and it won't be offered any longer.

 

[thereselittleflower]

Can a Christian become deflied? Absolutely! If we pray to God to remove the flies, He is more than able to do so... nothing is impossible for the Lord!

I totally agree Macrina . . Nothing is impossible for the Lord!

But what concerns me here is that the type of defilement Paul is speaking of is extremely dangerous, for it caues the relationship between the person and God to be DESTROYED.

It means that the person, who has become so defied, was once in union and fellowship with God in God's grace, but is now devoid of God's grace and that union and fellowship has now been destroyed.

If one, who was once in union and fellowship with God, but has had that union and fellowship destroyed and were to die in such a state, could they be saved?


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[Uphill Battle]

I totally agree Macrina . . Nothing is impossible for the Lord!

But what concerns me here is that the type of defilement Paul is speaking of is extremely dangerous, for it caues the relationship between the person and God to be DESTROYED.

It means that the person, who has become so defied, was once in union and fellowship with God in God's grace, but is now devoid of God's grace and that union and fellowship has now been destroyed.

If one, who was once in union and fellowship with God, but has had that union and fellowship destroyed and were to die in such a state, could they be saved?


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you'd have to assume that God assigned different values for each sin to believe that people can fall from Grace to the point of losing salvation. Seeing as each and every one of us sins after being saved irregardless of what the sin is.

 

[thereselittleflower]

1a) to come late or too tardily

seems to answer the question, doesn't it?

come to late to the Grace of God, and it won't be offered any longer.

Put it into context UB. . .

Paul is speaking to believers . . . those who are fellowshipping with and in union with Christ through God's Grace . .

He is warning them not to FAIL OF God's Grace:

Not to:

• to be left behind in the race and so
• fail to reach the goal in God's Grace,
• to fall short of the end
• fall back from being a partker in God's Grace
• to fail, be wanting of God's Grace
• to be in want of, lack God's Grace
• to suffer want, to be devoid of God's Grace
• be separated from the whole God's Grace
• allow our union or fellowship in God's Grace be destroyed

He is not addressing those who have not yet come to and received God's Grace . . but to those who have and warning them they could fail of God's Grace, that they could fail to remain in God's grace, and fail to complete the race . . that is a figure Paul uses elsewhere in this same book (Hebrews) to speak of the Christian life, which he is alluding to also here by his choice of words. . . .

The imagry is clear, that if one fails to finish the race, one has failed of God's Grace . . .


Warnings aren't given unless they are real and genuine and what is warned about can indeed happen . . .

That he is warning genuine believers about falling from God's Grace, failing of it, as above, is further clarified by his warning them of BECOMING Deflied . .

One who was never joined to Christ in God's Grace cannot "become" deflied, for they are already defiled . . .

Paul is obviously speaking to and of those whose sins have been forgiven . .that is his target audience .. true believers!

So, Paul is clearly indicating the narrow target of his text . . true believers in Christ who can fail of God's Grace and have their relationship with God DESTROYED . . .


This is a DIRE warning that many choose to ignore . . .



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[Uphill Battle]

Kind of figured this was going to be a OSAS thread....

 

[Uphill Battle]

The saints were to be on their watch against someone lacking the grace of God.


Hebrews 12:15 records how Paul warned the Jewish saints about someone "lacking" that "grace". That is what the Greek text of Hebrews 12:15 says, tis husterôn apo tês charitos Theou, "someone lacking the grace of God", the word hustereô being in present active participle, husterôn. In short: The "root of bitterness" was a person, someone who "lacked the grace of God" (that is, did not have it). But, that grace, what was it?

It would appear that the warning doesn't detail believers, but false believers among them.

 

[thereselittleflower]

you'd have to assume that God assigned different values for each sin to believe that people can fall from Grace to the point of losing salvation. Seeing as each and every one of us sins after being saved irregardless of what the sin is.

No, I'm not assuming anything. .

I am digging into a verse to reveal what it means . .

Would you like to join me?

 

[orthodoxy]

If yes, why and what does this mean?

If no, why not?



.

Yes, just as a person can get their hands dirty in handling unclean things....this is why the Church offers confession to the repentant ... a renewed washing ...

can a person get cancer again if once healed? Yes, of course, cancer can come out of "remission" thus it is so with the sickness of sin... thus the need of the hospital for the soul, "the Church" to remove the cancer if needed and gain "remission" of sins ...

Can a person who once beaten and robbed in their sins be beaten and robbed again and need a "good samaritian" to take him to the inn to be healed?

Surely the answer is yes...

kyril

 

[thereselittleflower]

Kind of figured this was going to be a OSAS thread....

Who's making it an OSAS thread?




.

 

[thereselittleflower]

The saints were to be on their watch against someone lacking the grace of God.


Hebrews 12:15 records how Paul warned the Jewish saints about someone "lacking" that "grace". That is what the Greek text of Hebrews 12:15 says, tis husterôn apo tês charitos Theou, "someone lacking the grace of God", the word hustereô being in present active participle, husterôn. In short: The "root of bitterness" was a person, someone who "lacked the grace of God" (that is, did not have it). But, that grace, what was it?

It would appear that the warning doesn't detail believers, but false believers among them.

I would really like a response to my post here:

http://www.christianforums.com/showpost.php?p=31374319&postcount=10

look at the last comments . . . .

Warnings aren't given unless they are real and genuine and what is warned about can indeed happen . . .

That he is warning genuine believers about falling from God's Grace, failing of it, as above, is further clarified by his warning them of BECOMING Deflied . .

One who was never joined to Christ in God's Grace cannot "become" deflied, for they are already defiled . . .

Paul is obviously speaking to and of those whose sins have been forgiven . .that is his target audience .. true believers!

So, Paul is clearly indicating the narrow target of his text . . true believers in Christ who can fail of God's Grace and have their relationship with God DESTROYED . . .


This is a DIRE warning that many choose to ignore . . .
​

you are merely reading into this verse what you want it to say . .


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[orthodoxy]

Put it into context UB. . .

Paul is speaking to believers . . . those who are fellowshipping with and in union with Christ through God's Grace . .

He is warning them not to FAIL OF God's Grace:

Not to:

• to be left behind in the race and so
• fail to reach the goal in God's Grace,
• to fall short of the end
• fall back from being a partker in God's Grace
• to fail, be wanting of God's Grace
• to be in want of, lack God's Grace
• to suffer want, to be devoid of God's Grace
• be separated from the whole God's Grace
• allow our union or fellowship in God's Grace be destroyed

He is not addressing those who have not yet come to and received God's Grace . . but to those who have and warning them they could fail of God's Grace, that they could fail to remain in God's grace, and fail to complete the race . . that is a figure Paul uses elsewhere in this same book (Hebrews) to speak of the Christian life, which he is alluding to also here by his choice of words. . . .

The imagry is clear, that if one fails to finish the race, one has failed of God's Grace . . .


Warnings aren't given unless they are real and genuine and what is warned about can indeed happen . . .

That he is warning genuine believers about falling from God's Grace, failing of it, as above, is further clarified by his warning them of BECOMING Deflied . .

One who was never joined to Christ in God's Grace cannot "become" deflied, for they are already defiled . . .

Paul is obviously speaking to and of those whose sins have been forgiven . .that is his target audience .. true believers!

So, Paul is clearly indicating the narrow target of his text . . true believers in Christ who can fail of God's Grace and have their relationship with God DESTROYED . . .


This is a DIRE warning that many choose to ignore . . .



.

Let us not forget the mercy of God endures forever thus God is longsuffering and wants to heal a person ...

repentance is always avalible to the contrite of heart and the humble that seek forgiveness....

what happens in a race? We fall. We get up. We fall. We get up. We fall. We ....

kyril

 

[thereselittleflower]

Let us not forget the mercy of God endures forever thus God is longsuffering and wants to heal a person ...

repentance is always avalible to the contrite of heart and the humble that seek forgiveness....

what happens in a race? We fall. We get up. We fall. We get up. We fall. We ....

kyril

Hi kyril

With my kids now in competition swimming, what Paul has written comes home even more strongly to me ..

One can begin a race and never complete it . .

Onc can begin a race and LEAVE the race and not return to it.


For instance, one of my kids quit one of her races . . she just stopped, got out of the pool and quit. She quit because she was injured. She never got back into the race. The race comleted without her. She lost all chance at reward. She was catagorized as a "NO SWIM" just like the rest who were so catagorized because the NEVER BEGAN the race. So, even though she got almost to the end of the race, she was treated the same as those who NEVER BEGAN it to begin with!

In another example, another of my kids hit her arm hard edge of the pool when she approached the end of hte lane, that hurt her, and it slowed her up . . but that did not stop her from continuing and finishing the race, even though she came in last in her heat. She was recognized for having raced and given the honor due her by placing her among the others who finished the race.

These are perfect parallels to what Paul is speaking of here.

Sin injures our soul.

Some sins injure our soul more than others.

Many sins simply cause us to stumble, but we get up and continue in God's Grace . .

Some sins cause us to stop and LEAVE the race of the Christian life altogether. . . . this is when we are separated from God's Divine Sanctifying Grace and our union and fellowship with God is destroyed.

Just as my child in the first example, if this happens to us and we die in that state, we will not even be given the recognition we ever started the race . .

We will be treated the same as those who never turned to God to begin with, who never entered the Christian race, who rejected Christ . . . even if we came close to the end of the race before we stopped and left the proverbial water.


This is what Paul is warning us about . . and he is also warning us about WHY it can happen . . .

The Root of Bitterness . . .


Yes Kyrill . . God is merciful . . . but we cannot presume upon His mercy either . . . .



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[GratiaCorpusChristi]

I disagree with my Catholic brethren in thinking that sin can nullify God's declaration of those under baptism and belief as possessing righteous. (I do, on the other hand, readily confess that sins detract from our sanctification and prevent us from engaging in altar fellowship)

At the same time, I disagree with my Calvinist brethren because I believe that someone can be objectively given a living faith through the hearing of the Word and the Sacrament of baptism, and so be truly declared righteous in God's sight, and then repudiate this living faith and so end their legal status.

All that said, when a person greviously sins (commits a 'mortal sin,' if you prefer), I am forced to question whether or not that person truly still possesses a living faith, since A. I believe a living faith is naturally manifest in righteous deeds and B. part of the object/content of a living faith is an assent and love for the decrees of God and his Lordship.

 

[thereselittleflower]

I disagree with my Catholic brethren in thinking that sin can nullify God's declaration of those under baptism and belief as possessing righteous. (I do, on the other hand, readily confess that sins detract from our sanctification and prevent us from engaging in altar fellowship)

At the same time, I disagree with my Calvinist brethren because I believe that someone can be objectively given a living faith through the hearing of the Word and the Sacrament of baptism, and so be truly declared righteous in God's sight, and then repudiate this living faith and so end their legal status.

All that said, when a person greviously sins (commits a 'mortal sin,' if you prefer), I am forced to question whether or not that person truly still possesses a living faith, since A. I believe a living faith is naturally manifest in righteous deeds and B. part of the object/content of a living faith is an assent and love for the decrees of God and his Lordship.

OK . . but aren't you saying the exact same thing I am?

Look at what you said here:

All that said, when a person greviously sins (commits a 'mortal sin,' if you prefer), I am forced to question whether or not that person truly still possesses a living faith​

Can a dead faith save?

That is the question James asks, and it is a rhetorical question to which the answer is obviously "no".

Your statement above is right in line with what I am saying. .. what one onced possessed, a living faith and union and fellowship with God, can be destroyed . .

That is what Paul is saying in this verse in Hebrews . . that is what I am saying . . .

I am not sure what you have found to disagree with, since it is obvious we agree . . . I was not suggesting that sin in general can destroy our relationship with God, but that mortal sins do .. . .

The illustrations I gave of my own kids and swimming illustrated this.


It sounds to me as though we completely agree.



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