British Orthodox Church

[tampasteve]

I recently read that in 2015 the BOC left the agreement with the Coptic Orthodox Church to return to the pre-1994 status. Where does that leave them though? Are they still in communion with the other OO churches? I assume that their orders are still valid, but will new consecrations be valid as well?

 

[Anhelyna]

As far as this EC knows - they are now totally independent again - and not , as far as I know , in Communion with either what could be termed mainstream Orthodoxy or indeed Oriental Orthodoxy.

I believe back then, there was a thread running on another Orthodox Community Forum which had more information about the split. I understand they are a very small group.

 

[tampasteve]

Interesting, I wonder what benefit there would be to be totally separate and not in communion? Even if they are small it seems prudent to stay in communion...curious.

 

[dzheremi]

Anhelyna, please refrain from referring to Chalcedonian/Eastern Orthodoxy as "mainstream Orthodoxy" on the Oriental Orthodox subforum. This contravenes the purpose of this forum by presenting Oriental Orthodoxy as something other than mainstream Orthodoxy, which is obviously not in line with the faith that this section of the website is meant to represent. Thank you.

Anyway, yes, Tampasteve, they have now returned to their pre-canonical status, and are in communion with no wider church body of any kind. It is sad, but it is also the case that they were never very big, and never autocephalous by any measure (they were always a single diocese within the Coptic Orthodox Patriarchate in Europe). On the word of one of their former priests (who is now a priest in the Coptic Orthodox Church, as he -- and many who he received while a priest in the BOC -- did not wish to follow former metropolitan Seraphim into schism) who I used to correspond with, we are talking about a group that is now somewhere on the order of 100 people, total, which is many time less than the number of Copts found in the UK. Not exactly earth-shattering, though of course we are sad to see them go and would welcome them back provided they profess both doctrinal and formal allegiance to Orthodoxy.

 

[tampasteve]

Interesting, I knew they were small, but not that small. It really is too bad that there is no push for a western rite OO church. I know there have been some inroads with the Antiochian church and their western rite, it seems like there would be some demand for OO too. I for one was drawn to the Coptic Orthodox Church when I was younger, but the very ethnocentric reality of the congregation made it difficult to move further.

 

[dzheremi]

Interesting, I knew they were small, but not that small. It really is too bad that there is no push for a western rite OO church. I know there have been some inroads with the Antiochian church and their western rite, it seems like there would be some demand for OO too. I for one was drawn to the Coptic Orthodox Church when I was younger, but the very ethnocentric reality of the congregation made it difficult to move further.

Actually, there has been what you might call 'Western Rite Orthodoxy' among the Syriac Orthodox for well over a century, since at least (as far as I know) the conversion of Antonio Francisco Xavier Alvarez, who was consecrated Mar Julius I in 1889 after converting to the Malankara Syriac Orthodox Church and taking his flock with him (he had previously been a priest of the Roman Catholic Church in Goa, India, but objected to the Portuguese rule over his people). At that time he was established with the permission of then Syriac Orthodox Patriarch Moran Mor Ignatius Peter IV (r. 1872-1894) to be "archbishop of the autocephalous Latin rite of Ceylon, Goa, and India." The original group that he founded continues on to this day in the Brahmavar (Goan) Orthodox Church, which as I understand it has a relationship to its mother church that is somewhat analogous to the relationship of the British Orthodox Church and the Coptic Orthodox Church prior to this recent schism, being a particular diocese within the larger church rather than an autocephalous church as, say, the Coptic Orthodox or the Armenian Apostolic are as constituent churches of the Oriental Orthodox communion.

The Coptic Orthodox Church has been flirting in recent years with 'missionary churches' in the American/Westerner-specific sense (rather than the ordinary activities that we do in recognition of the reality that the West is not Egypt, such as having the majority of our Sunday services in English in America or the UK, Spanish in Bolivia and Mexico, etc). The soundness of this has been called into question in some quarters (and also the Orthodoxy...), but it nevertheless remains something that some people have a lot of hope in. As someone who was received not into one of these self-consciously 'American' parishes, but into a regular parish and community (e.g., majority Egyptian, minority non-Egyptian, the non-Egyptians also including Ethiopians, Sudanese, Iraqis, Europeans, Mexicans, and apparently since I've left one Saudi woman, which...yeah...let's keep that going, by all means! ), I kinda don't get the point. They seem like 'dumbed down' (in the sense of a slightly less ornamented chant) versions of Coptic parishes, which...ehh...what's the point? Just go to a regular parish in America. It'll already be mostly-to-entirely in English, unless you happen to live in an area with a lot of recent immigrants (since we are still receiving immigrants from the homelands of the Church in Egypt, Sudan, and Libya, we need to balance the needs of the recently-arrived and the already here).

Liturgy at St. Paul "American Coptic Orthodox Church":

Notice all the Coptic still in there?

Liturgy at St. Mary & St. George Coptic Orthodox Church, Omaha, NE. (not self-consciously American):

Notice all the Coptic and Greek still in there? And also all the English?

I don't know. I guess the priest's accent is thicker at St. Mary & St. George's, but that's about it. It's the same thing, in terms of the actual liturgy. Yes, there's more Arabic in the second one, but the point is that this is what Coptic people think having a 'Western Rite' is: Just make everything in English with maybe some set Coptic/Greek. But that's already what we do in 'non-Western' (not 'American') parishes, which makes the whole thing redundant. And since no Coptic person I've ever met (and by this point I've met a lot) has too much of a problem with getting rid of Arabic (with the older generation, there can be some resistance just because they grew up doing everything in Egypt in Arabic, but these same people will also curse the Arabs for ever having come to Egypt as a conquering force under Al 'As, so...whatever), they're generally fine with that.

Apparently the Ethiopians have started to have English liturgies, though their chant is so different it's still equally difficult for me to follow. Beautiful, though!

The Syriac Orthodox liturgy in English is flat out one of the most beautiful things I've ever heard.

I don't know how common it is to find Armenian Apostolic liturgies in English (I have seen one CD with deacon's parts in English, so I'm assuming you can find it, I just don't know where...Armenians are the one OO people I have yet to interact with in a worship context, though I did know several before coming to Orthodoxy). If it retains anything like the spirit of their native worship, which I have to assume it does (after all, the same Holy Spirit guides us all), it must be quite an electrifying experience.

 

[dzheremi]

All of this is to say that from where I'm sitting as a convert, I'm not sure how much a 'Western Rite' would enrich what we are already doing, since the liturgies are already offered in English in the West, or in other languages as the situation warrants. I do think we need to do all that we can do to bring people to church with us, be it for a liturgy or vespers or just a nice chat so that the Church and the wider local community can be well-integrated and friendly with one another. But that's something different than offering some new kind of worship. Such things only ever developed organically anyway, so I suppose if there were enough people in a given place asking for, say, an Orthodox version of the Mozarabic Rite or some other authentic/historically-grounded Western Rite (which I am told that the EO use in Spain, as is right to do), then it would be right to offer that.

I'm really not a big fan of the idea of giving Westerners their own separate form of church still within the same church, though...and I'm a Westerner!

While I didn't come from an anti-Catholic background (I converted from Roman Catholicism, not Protestantism, and I actually still really like certain aspects of the RCC), I think this convert makes some good points:

In my particular Church, it's usually (born/ethnic) Coptic people who don't know how to be Orthodox and Western yet who want to monkey around with things for the sake of potential converts, without necessarily understanding what draws Westerners to Orthodoxy in the first place. Not in every case, but in many.

God-willing, with the raising of the first and now the second generation of Orthodox Coptic people in the USA, we will see less of a need to pander unwisely to what Egyptians think is the American Christian way of being at the expense of our shared (whether through birth or adoption) liturgical patrimony. I had some very interesting discussions several years ago at the monastery in Rochester, NY with some 18-20 year old people there which really gave me hope, but sadly that must be balanced against the reality of several trouble spots (e.g., DC) where the inmates are running the asylum. So I'm perhaps overly cautious when this topic comes up, since it has given us some trouble in the recent past.

Anyway...that's probably way more than you wanted to ever read...haha. Sorry. May God continue to guide us all.

 

[tampasteve]

Fantasic informatino, thank you so much for taking the time!

I suppose that perhaps rather than a specific Rite within a particular OO Church I was more thinking along the lines of a revived Western Rite Church with OO belief structure, a daughter church more adapted to the West but still holding OO beliefs. Perhaps using something akin to the Anglican Use/Sarum Use or similar or even just a vernacular DL in a less ethnic church. I think that some converts would be more comfortable going to a less ethnic church, see the success of the OCA in attracting converts. The "new" church could share space with another OO church until it grew large enough.

I suppose this is all just an exercise in interest though as if there were more demand then perhaps such a OO church would arise eventually. But without a solution, demand is hard to gauge. I know I am tredding in sensitive waters though, as part of the Orthodox church is the ethnic character. But this also is a stumbling block to many potential converts. My personal issue was I could never be seen as anything other than an outsider as I am not Egyptian or middle eastern, so the Coptic Church always felt as it was not a home...not that people were rude or mean, that was not the case.

 

[Gxg (G²)]

I recently read that in 2015 the BOC left the agreement with the Coptic Orthodox Church to return to the pre-1994 status. Where does that leave them though? Are they still in communion with the other OO churches? I assume that their orders are still valid, but will new consecrations be valid as well?

Much of the situation is difficult to understand if one does not first understand the Church of the British Isles and its development (and there was another thread elsewhere on the matter covering that historically, as seen in Altus Prosator, Columba & Celtic Orthodoxy: What's Good or Bad within it?). When seeing the work of others like St. Columba or St.Patrick and what they experienced in a very unique way, it helps to appreciate more the situation that has happened recently with the British Orthodox and knowing how to go forward. Speaking of the Church in the British Isles and others who wish to introduce Orthodoxy to the Isles (As they understand it), we understand that the British Orthodox Church is no longer under the Patriarchate of Alexandria. For reference:

• British Orthodox Church leaves Canonical Orthodoxy ...

This is from their home page:

The British Orthodox Church is a small autonomous Orthodox jurisdiction, originally deriving from the Syrian Orthodox Church. It was canonically part of the Coptic Orthodox Patriarchate of Alexandria from 1994-2015, before amicably returning to its original status in order to fulfil its mission more effectively. n fulfillment to what it sees as its current mission in the light of the developments and changing dynamics of the Middle East and Britain.​

And this is from their page as well:

The Coptic Orthodox Church (COC) has been present in Britain since the 1960s, and through its ministry became known to the British Orthodox Church of the British Isles (BOC). Subsequently, in 1994 the BOC approached the COC with a view to becoming part of the Coptic Orthodox Patriarchate of Alexandria, and upon acceptance and agreement of this new relationship, a protocol was signed in 1994, since when the BOC has been a full and effective part of the Patriarchate.

In the same spirit with which this union came into being at the request of the BOC in 1994, it is now agreed, again at its request, that the BOC will return to its pre-1994 status in fulfillment to what it sees as its current mission in the light of the developments and changing dynamics of the Middle East and Britain.

We will continue to pray for our communities, our clergy and our people, that they effectively live and fulfil their Christian witness in Britain, and serve their wider community at a time when that faithful Christian presence is critical.

+Seraphim

HE Metropolitan Seraphim of Glastonbury

+Angaelos

HG Bishop Angaelos General Bishop Coptic Orthodox Church United Kingdom

That mission is to the people of the British Isles, regardless of their ethnic and cultural background and is not the preserve of any one people.​

It is interesting to see how things progress....Due to being too closely associated with the Coptic world and yet having more British people to reach in their area, they felt that they needed to return to who they were for Evangelism purposes - and in a sense, the BOC is the OO equivalent of the OCA in Britain.

And I am not surprised since reaching out to others in British culture has been noted for some time when it came to not limiting things to where they developed ethnically...

 

[Gxg (G²)]

I recently read that in 2015 the BOC left the agreement with the Coptic Orthodox Church to return to the pre-1994 status. Where does that leave them though? Are they still in communion with the other OO churches? I assume that their orders are still valid, but will new consecrations be valid as well?

For the British Orthodox, they are still very much aware of their history. Knowing the history of the Church in Britain makes a huge difference

• Antiochian Orthodox Christian Archdiocese of the British Isles and Ireland...

Also, What follows here is an excellent presentation on the subject that I think you'd appreciate

​

 

[tampasteve]

@Gxg (G²) thank you for the reply! That is a lot to digest, let me comb through it and get back. Thank you again!

 

[Gxg (G²)]

It really is too bad that there is no push for a western rite OO church. I know there have been some inroads with the Antiochian church and their western rite, it seems like there would be some demand for OO too. I for one was drawn to the Coptic Orthodox Church when I was younger, but the very ethnocentric reality of the congregation made it difficult to move further.

I have had several experiences with this situation. Generally, at the Coptic Parish I've gone to, I was always comfortable (for the most part) and had good conversations. There were others there who were White and Black there as well, although it was mainly Egyptians. What I did notice, of course, was that it was very much centered on Egyptian culture (no surprise) and I had other Coptic believers tell me on that reality when they noted why it was difficult for many to connect with other cultures in the area. I can understand aspects behind that.

Of course, the same dynamic has occurred within other parishes. The Ethiopian Orthodox have had that battle as well - and the services I've gone to have been amazing. I have also met Ethiopian Orthodox outside of a church experience and noticed how different things can be. In example, one of my friends worked at a gas station - and another one (who was Ethiopian) I met working at another gas station across town. They would have no problem with others sharing their faith as Orthodox and it was beautiful, especially seeing my Coptic friend having icons in his gas station and him interacting with others from many varied backgrounds. Of course, you'd never notice talking to him that he went to a church with a strong emphasis on Egyptian culture when talking to him/his family in everyday life. Having that relationship made a world of difference going to service since many things are easier to handle when you have strong relational IQ.

Likewise, I do think the emphasis on reaching out to British individuals in the British Orthodox world is tied to how much relationship was emphasized when others came to church.