Book REview: Why Not Women?

[JimB]

Why Not Women?
Loren Cunningham & David Hamilton
(YWAM Publications, 277pgs, $16p)​

In the introduction to the book “Why Not Women?” co-author Loren Cunningham, founder and director of Youth With a Mission (YWAM), frankly states that the exclusion of women from leadership, even ministry, in the church is nothing less than a debilitating repression of one-half of God’s potential workforce, an attack not only on an entire gifted gender, but also a disservice to men because it appeals to the lowest common denominators in humans, conceit and bigotry. Well, that’s tossing down the gauntlet, for sure because many in conservative American churches, Protestant and Catholic, who also appeal to scripture, hold that ecclesiastical leadership is a boys club. They would ask, Weren’t the apostles all men? Aren’t women commanded to learn in silence? Aren’t wives told to submit to their husbands?

Authors, Cunningham and David Hamilton, feel that this traditional view of gender roles begs an honest debate. In their view, Jesus broke down the middle wall of racial and sexual divisions. In Christ, there is neither male nor female—we are equals in all respects. The issue of women in missions, ministry, and leadership that has divided churches (as well as homes, communities, and even societies) requires an open, responsible, and respectful discussion.

The quest for truth, the authors suggest, sometimes require a critical look at our most sacred traditions and institutions. “Why Not Women?” provides a detailed study of women in scripture, placing the subject in an historical as well as current global perspective. This approach includes an exploration of the value and roles of women in Greek and Roman history and literature, Jewish rabbinic literature, the Old Testament, the customs of the early church, and in contemporary cultures and the modern church. We are also offered an examination of various women in public ministry and a rather assertive assessment of what's at stake for those inside as well as those outside the church who often view conservative American churches as misogynist and who misapply scripture that represses an entire gender.

In the wake of American feminism, this holy gender war may seem a bit antiquated, more suitable to third-world debate where women are required to wear burqas and are not allowed to be seen in public without the accompaniment of a male relative. Cunningham and Hamilton hope to shed more light than heat on the current dilemma many Western churches face in continuing to embrace long-held interpretations of scripture while seeking to function in a modern society. Today millions of women are looking over the church's shoulder, longing to experience the liberty they believe Jesus purchased for them at Calvary, freedom from ideas that pressure a woman to submit to culture and religion, not God, in determining her place in the world and the church.

Of course, not everyone will agree with the authors’ conclusions, but their voice is one that is growing in decibels and numbers and one that will be confronted by American churches in the Twenty-first Century.

 

[the.Sheepdog]

sounds very politically correct , Jim.

 

[Tamara224]

sounds very politically correct , Jim.

Depends on who's version of "politics" you're talking about.

This is far from "correct" in most churches' political arenas. In fact, it's so controversial that it appears most people's knee-jerk reaction is to label and marginalize. As you have just done.

 

[Always in His Presence]

A good book to kind of piggy back this one is:

Let your women keep silence in churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the Law. And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church. 1 Co.14:34-36 (KJV)

Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection.
But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over a man, but to be in silence. 1 Tim. 2:11-12



Adam Clark, one of the most respected theologians and author of a standard Bible commentary wrote on the subject of these verses about women keeping silent in Church...
"They are the only verses in the whole Book of God, which even by a false translation can be made prohibitory of women speaking in the Church. How come then, that by these passages, which according to the best Greek authorities, are wrongly rendered, and wrongly applied.



How comes it then, that women's lips have been sealed for centuries. How is it, that these texts have been allowed to stand unexamined, and unexplained for centuries?"
In his book 'The Woman Question', Reverand Hagin has fulfilled Clark's request magnificently. He analyzes the Scriptures which have kept women bound for centuries, and rightly-divides by the Holy Spirit, illuminating God's wonderful redemptive plan for women, the same as men.
​

.

 

[the.Sheepdog]

Depends on who's version of "politics" you're talking about.

This is far from "correct" in most churches' political arenas. In fact, it's so controversial that it appears most people's knee-jerk reaction is to label and marginalize. As you have just done.

Tamara dear lady, In every sense to me you are at least my equal. The political correctness thing is about women now saying what the bible says isnt fair. That was written by Paul in answer to a letter of one of the 7 churches who fist told him that they didnt allow women to speak. Paul simply was not combatting what that church had decided. As far as I can tell, the scripture says what it says and I dont have the ability to figure out if it meant just for that church because that was their custom anyway, or for all. I think it was just for that church but apparently thats just me.


Dont hate me for what I said unless you know what I meant please. My heart has always been for equality of all peoples male or female.

 

[Tamara224]

Tamara dear lady, In every sense to me you are at least my equal. The political correctness thing is about women now saying what the bible says isnt fair. That was written by Paul in answer to a letter of one of the 7 churches who fist told him that they didnt allow women to speak. Paul simply was not combatting what that church had decided. As far as I can tell, the scripture says what it says and I dont have the ability to figure out if it meant just for that church because that was their custom anyway, or for all. I think it was just for that church but apparently thats just me.


Dont hate me for what I said unless you know what I meant please. My heart has always been for equality of all peoples male or female.

Why would you think that I would hate you over it?!?! That is a rather harsh thing to say. I humbly ask that you rethink your assessment of me because, as God is my witness, I do not hate anyone. I believe that I was very polite in my response to you and I know that I was not even angry with you.

I do know what you meant. I think that perhaps you don't know what I meant?

You probably don't even realize that you are marginalizing when you do this. But it seems to me that you label it as political correctness so that you can dismiss it - so that you do not have to confront it and wrestle with the issue in your own mind.

You should not deny that women have been subjugated and placed as "second class" in the Church for centuries. That is just plain truth.

You seem to agree that the Scriptures in question were meant for one church at one time and not as a universal rule.

So why would you call it simply "political correctness" for women to challenge the misinterpretation and the misapplication of those Scriptures?

How can you say that this movement for equality in ministry is just "women now saying that what the Bible says isn't fair" but then turn around and agree that the Bible doesn't actually say such a thing?

Either the Bible tells us that women should not be leaders, not be in ministry, not speak in church.... Or it doesn't. And if it doesn't - then not only is it "not fair" for women to be kept from those positions... it's not right.

This isn't about women rejecting the truth of Scripture. This is about men and women rejecting the falsehood that has been touted by the church, based on misinterpretation of Scripture, for far too long.

Does it not matter to you that 1/2 of the Body of Christ has been relegated to "second class status" and kept from contributing to the functioning of the Body? All in contradiction to the Truth of the Word?


You say you don't have the ability to understand it, you say "Scripture says what it says" ...

The truth is that none of us has the ability to understand Scripture on our own. The Bible presents many troubling and seemingly incomprehensible dilemmas for believers.

But Scripture also promises that if any of us lacks wisdom we should ask God for it and He will give it freely. Saying you can't understand it is really no excuse. Not when you have the Holy Spirit to lead you into all truth.

You do yourself and your sisters in Christ a disservice by dismissing the subject as you do. You do your sisters an injustice to label us as merely "politically correct" and to, so it seems, presume that we are only acting emotionally and not rationally. You effectively close your ears to anything valid or meaningful someone might have to say about this topic.

I humbly ask you to rethink your position. If you do not want to really hear what people are saying about it, and struggle through the issues, and seek answers from God... then ignore it completely. But think about this... what motivated you to come into this thread and make the statement which you made? If it's a subject you don't really understand... then what prompted you to come in and label it "politically correct." (I've been around long enough to know that the term "politically correct" is not a good one in Christian circles).

None of this is said in anger, I assure you. So please do not dismiss me as being emotional. And please try to read what I have written without defensiveness.

 

[Tamara224]

My heart has always been for equality of all peoples male or female.

I just wanted to add... after all I wrote I don't want you to think I didn't catch this part.

I do believe that you desire equality for all. Just wanted to clarify that I don't think you're sexist or whatever.

 

[JimB]

sounds very politically correct , Jim.

Hmmm? Have you thumbed through a copy of the book yet or are you just making a biased prejudgment? If I were to say you sound very religiously correct, would you be offended?

I don’t think anyone would consider Loren Cunningham politically correct. He does make his case from scripture.

~Jim

I can explain it to you, but I can't understand it for you..​

 

[the.Sheepdog]

Tamara has prompted me out of my comfort zone I think Jim. You and she should talk as I feel like a middle man now. and no I havent read the book. Maybe I should.

 

[Brad2009]

Adam Clark, one of the most respected theologians and author of a standard Bible commentary wrote on the subject of these verses about women keeping silent in Church...
"They are the only verses in the whole Book of God, which even by a false translation can be made prohibitory of women speaking in the Church. How come then, that by these passages, which according to the best Greek authorities, are wrongly rendered, and wrongly applied.



How comes it then, that women's lips have been sealed for centuries. How is it, that these texts have been allowed to stand unexamined, and unexplained for centuries?"
In his book 'The Woman Question', Reverand Hagin has fulfilled Clark's request magnificently. He analyzes the Scriptures which have kept women bound for centuries, and rightly-divides by the Holy Spirit, illuminating God's wonderful redemptive plan for women, the same as men.

More detail please! I absolutely want to see why this is a mistranslation!

 

[Floatingaxe]

Why Not Women?
Loren Cunningham & David Hamilton
(YWAM Publications, 277pgs, $16p)​

In the introduction to the book “Why Not Women?” co-author Loren Cunningham, founder and director of Youth With a Mission (YWAM), frankly states that the exclusion of women from leadership, even ministry, in the church is nothing less than a debilitating repression of one-half of God’s potential workforce, an attack not only on an entire gifted gender, but also a disservice to men because it appeals to the lowest common denominators in humans, conceit and bigotry. Well, that’s tossing down the gauntlet, for sure because many in conservative American churches, Protestant and Catholic, who also appeal to scripture, hold that ecclesiastical leadership is a boys club. They would ask, Weren’t the apostles all men? Aren’t women commanded to learn in silence? Aren’t wives told to submit to their husbands?

Authors, Cunningham and David Hamilton, feel that this traditional view of gender roles begs an honest debate. In their view, Jesus broke down the middle wall of racial and sexual divisions. In Christ, there is neither male nor female—we are equals in all respects. The issue of women in missions, ministry, and leadership that has divided churches (as well as homes, communities, and even societies) requires an open, responsible, and respectful discussion.

The quest for truth, the authors suggest, sometimes require a critical look at our most sacred traditions and institutions. “Why Not Women?” provides a detailed study of women in scripture, placing the subject in an historical as well as current global perspective. This approach includes an exploration of the value and roles of women in Greek and Roman history and literature, Jewish rabbinic literature, the Old Testament, the customs of the early church, and in contemporary cultures and the modern church. We are also offered an examination of various women in public ministry and a rather assertive assessment of what's at stake for those inside as well as those outside the church who often view conservative American churches as misogynist and who misapply scripture that represses an entire gender.

In the wake of American feminism, this holy gender war may seem a bit antiquated, more suitable to third-world debate where women are required to wear burqas and are not allowed to be seen in public without the accompaniment of a male relative. Cunningham and Hamilton hope to shed more light than heat on the current dilemma many Western churches face in continuing to embrace long-held interpretations of scripture while seeking to function in a modern society. Today millions of women are looking over the church's shoulder, longing to experience the liberty they believe Jesus purchased for them at Calvary, freedom from ideas that pressure a woman to submit to culture and religion, not God, in determining her place in the world and the church.

Of course, not everyone will agree with the authors’ conclusions, but their voice is one that is growing in decibels and numbers and one that will be confronted by American churches in the Twenty-first Century.

One of the best books I have ever read!

 

[Brad2009]

Let your women keep silence in churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the Law. And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church. 1 Co.14:34-36 (KJV)

Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection.
But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over a man, but to be in silence. 1 Tim. 2:11-12



Adam Clark, one of the most respected theologians and author of a standard Bible commentary wrote on the subject of these verses about women keeping silent in Church...
"They are the only verses in the whole Book of God, which even by a false translation can be made prohibitory of women speaking in the Church. How come then, that by these passages, which according to the best Greek authorities, are wrongly rendered, and wrongly applied.



How comes it then, that women's lips have been sealed for centuries. How is it, that these texts have been allowed to stand unexamined, and unexplained for centuries?"
In his book 'The Woman Question', Reverand Hagin has fulfilled Clark's request magnificently. He analyzes the Scriptures which have kept women bound for centuries, and rightly-divides by the Holy Spirit, illuminating God's wonderful redemptive plan for women, the same as men.

Seriously. More information on this is required in my mind to go forward on the topic. Until we see something specific from Greek scholars, like how the passages are idiomatic to Greek or something along those lines - wouldn't it be rash to go against inspired scripture, regardless of what our own understanding, prejudices and surrounding culture tell us?

 

[Floatingaxe]

The point is that the interpretation of scripture concerning many matters pertaining to women have been against scripture, and partial to prejudice and pagan cultural thought that has become part of human thinking and persists today.

 

[GrapeGirl]

Chiks are weird and moody. That's why not women. Just kidding.

I have recently gotten into the ladies group at my church. There are a lot of talented women there. They like bond together and talk about stuff and cry, which freaks me out. But I have to admit, I have leaned on a couple of them this week, and it was kinda nice. They drink wine instead of beer, (I don't know what that's about) but other than that it was pretty cool. Women have different abilities than men that come in pretty handy.

 

[Brad2009]

The point is that the interpretation of scripture concerning many matters pertaining to women have been against scripture, and partial to prejudice and pagan cultural thought that has become part of human thinking and persists today.

There has no doubt been some extreme forms of discrimination against women which exceeds the mandate of scripture.

However, Paul's writing seems to be pretty unambiguous with respect to women as teachers/leaders. I would just like to see greater detail as to how these passages differ from their face value - idiomatically, mistranslation, etc...

 

[Tamara224]

Seriously. More information on this is required in my mind to go forward on the topic. Until we see something specific from Greek scholars, like how the passages are idiomatic to Greek or something along those lines - wouldn't it be rash to go against inspired scripture, regardless of what our own understanding, prejudices and surrounding culture tell us?

If you want more information, then you should read the books that have been reviewed here.

 

[Brad2009]

If you want more information, then you should read the books that have been reviewed here.

Yeah, I'll look around - I was just thinking that the answer would not be book length! I mean, its like a total of 4 sentences - an in-depth greek treatise on 4 sentences shouldn't take more than 10 pages max!

I just want to know what the source of the confusion is - I hope its some kind of greek idiom or translation issue that would change the obvious english meaning of Paul's words.

However, if Paul meant what we commonly understand the meaning of those passages to be, I believe his wisdom to be inspired by the Holy Spirit and not to be disregarded.

 

[Floatingaxe]

He didn't mean what everyone has been led (or forced) to think. That's why the uproar, and that's why God's Word appears hypocritical. The Holy Spirit gifts us and doesn't withold based on gender or race, so why would a woman's service to the Church be curtailed, especially if she is gifted by God?

No one has the right to stand in front of her to bar her way. Reading the book will dispel those long-held erroneous beliefs and unconscious biases. For men it will be a RELEASE from a prison of the mind and unconscious pride that will bring great reward.

 

[Brad2009]

He didn't mean what everyone has been led (or forced) to think. That's why the uproar, and that's why God's Word appears hypocritical. The Holy Spirit gifts us and doesn't withold based on gender or race, so why would a woman's service to the Church be curtailed, especially if she is gifted by God?

No one has the right to stand in front of her to bar her way. Reading the book will dispel those long-held erroneous beliefs and unconscious biases. For men it will be a RELEASE from a prison of the mind and unconscious pride that will bring great reward.

Ok, so just give me a hint! Is it an idiomatic phraseology, mis-translation, cultural dependancy.... the verse is not hard to interpret.